Opinions on the Lore Change

[Wyzilla]

So, coming back from a long hiatus on Warframe due to computer problems, happily about to install warframe...... only to find out that apparently all the cool lore got flushed down the toilet and apparently the Tenno themselves are Evangelion child expies instead of horrifying biomechanical constructs of some variety.

I... what? Who thought this was a good idea remotely for the game to move it? Was it done purely to shove in the new mechanics for powers or do the devs just enjoy trolling the fanbase? My urge to finish the updates stopped right there upon reading that and completely killed my interest in it the despite being a fairly well-paying customer myself. Call me crazy, but running around as some prepubescent child in a dream machine doesn't really scream "fun", "badass", or "interesting" in the least, but rather seems like a fairly awful and complete screwball attempt to attract children to an M-Rated game about turning clones into sushi in increasingly inventive ways.

Who here actually liked the change? Who agrees with me in that it just seems poorly executed all 'round? My interest at least has been killed to the point that unless there's a retcon I don't think I'll ever pick up Warframe again despite sinking at least $60 or $80 into it. I'm sorry if I'm late to the party, but I can't help but voice my displeasure and ask if anybody else shares it.

http://www.strawpoll.me/10233077

[Kai_Shiba]

You mean the codex? That hints to the Tenno being children? All of the lore, It has been there from the start, there was never a "lore change". DE aren't trolling or to shove in the new mechanics. In somewhat recent Devstream, they've already answered those questions to why they chose this path.

A huge majority actually enjoyed it, the minority disliked it and have either A. Quit playing or B. Keep to their headcanons

Edited May 17, 2016 by KJRenz

[Akavakaku]

Nothing changed, we just learned more. There were several hints in in-game lore entries. And the warframes themselves are still biohorror cyborg mutants.

As for the themes, the lore has been building up to a strong theme of parenthood for a long time. The Grineer Queens' maternal relationship to their subjects, the Corpus building their identity out of their concept of family, the Sentients sacrificing their ability to have children in order to attack the Orokin. Culminating in the revelation of the Tenno as Margulis, and later Lotus's adopted children.

Unfortunately, if you were gone for most of the time this was being built up to, it probably would seem very forced and sudden out-of-context.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Akavakaku

[Firetempest]

As its just the start of it I'm not claiming shenanigans yet. Don't watch anime much but pretty sure Evangelion is more like symbiotic gungam more so than the remote piloted Gyver like frames we have. We still dont know much about the frames themselves. The children are void infused and I think they are more like the birth of a elf like immortal race and their looks are meant to be contrary. But love it or hate it you don't need to participate in the focus system. Turn off operator volume and play it like you where before second dream. Or leave, thats fine too.

[Wyzilla]

1 hour ago, KJRenz said:

You mean the codex? That kinda hints to the Tenno being children? All of the lore, It has been there from the start. DE aren't trolling or to shove in the new mechanics. In somewhat recent Devstream, they've already answered those questions to why they chose this path.

Which one discusses it?

1 hour ago, Firetempest said:

As its just the start of it I'm not claiming shenanigans yet. Don't watch anime much but pretty sure Evangelion is more like symbiotic gungam more so than the remote piloted Gyver like frames we have. We still dont know much about the frames themselves. The children are void infused and I think they are more like the birth of a elf like immortal race and their looks are meant to be contrary. But love it or hate it you don't need to participate in the focus system. Turn off operator volume and play it like you where before second dream. Or leave, thats fine too.

I reference Evangelion more because the pilots are a bunch of children opposed to adults.

1 hour ago, Akavakaku said:

Nothing changed, we just learned more. There were several hints in in-game lore entries. And the warframes themselves are still biohorror cyborg mutants.

As for the themes, the lore has been building up to a strong theme of parenthood for a long time. The Grineer Queens' maternal relationship to their subjects, the Corpus building their identity out of their concept of family, the Sentients sacrificing their ability to have children in order to attack the Orokin.

Unfortunately, if you were gone for most of the time this was being built up to, it probably would seem very forced and sudden out-of-context.

I just can't stand the change because it makes Warframe feel like it's targeting a much younger audience with a hollow power fantasy instead of heading towards a much more cosmic horror angle, with the asthetics of Warframe fit really well with the Infested and DE's history.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Wyzilla

[Rambit23Z]

Just do what I do. Make your own headcanon and pretend like that part of the lore didn't happen. (You can turn off the operator voice in your settings)

[Firetempest]

1 minute ago, Wyzilla said:

I just can't stand the change because it makes Warframe feel like it's targeting a much younger audience with a hollow power fantasy instead of heading towards a much more cosmic horror angel, with the asthetics of Warframe fit really well with the Infested and DE's history.

Except this is something you learn quest wise rather deep into mid game. And psychology wise, would playing as children really attract children? Seems more like a adult theme that these war machines are physically children trained to maim and slaughter for the continuation of the Orokin empire. Wouldn't children rather play as a badass adult? Something children usually fantasize about is being an adult in some demanding job, pilot, astronaut, fire fighter, doctor, GI Joe. Maybe kids are different now-a-days but playing as what I am currently didn't interest me as much. Although I guess In animes with powerful lead children they are using proxies like giant mechas or they change themselves in form some way. I don't really think this increases or decreases its unintended audience in any significant way. It just messes with current players in how comfortable they where in a protagonist with no true identity because they could make up whatever they wished.

[(XBOX)a salsa wizard]

I was always fond of the gritty war machines made of flesh and twisted metal and I wasn't to happy to see that idea go down the drain for a bunch of couch potato nerds sitting around and sleeping all day, but i am glad DE is integrating a story of some sort and expanding onto the lore.

[BornWithTeeth]

Sounds like you didn't actually, you know, do the quest. At least play through it, if you have the account ready, then have an opinion.

[Jakorak]

Dang OP salt is super real.

This was no "change" of lore. This was lore being filled in where there was holes conveniently left for whenever DE decided to tackle them.

1) Warframes are a more perfected form of the infestation: listen to all of the infested bosses for reference.

2) rhino prime's codex entry detailing the first time of a warframe being in a state of control: open-ended lore that is explained well by the tenno-warframe connection.

3) Ember/Prime's codex entry detailing a military ship that underwent a mysterious error resulting in only children survivors that are mysteriously whisked away by beaurocrats: open-ended lore that is explained well as the first void experiment that resulted in void enfused children.

In Devstream 72, the Dev's talk about why they chose this direction, generally resolving the long question of what the tenno were technically since changing warframes and warframe sexes didn't really make sense. As well the idea of the tenno child was chosen as a stylish counterbalance of identities, The metal and physical power of the warframes combined with the fragility and mental/void powers of the tenno combining as a harmonious mutual dependency.

 

 

 

 

[Spot.]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)a salsa wizard said:

I was always fond of the gritty war machines made of flesh and twisted metal and I wasn't to happy to see that idea go down the drain for a bunch of couch potato nerds sitting around and sleeping all day, but i am glad DE is integrating a story of some sort and expanding onto the lore.

The idea may still be well alive though. We know what controls them, but not what's actually inside the Warframes themselves.

[Gelkor]

44 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

So, coming back from a long hiatus on Warframe due to computer problems, happily about to install warframe...... only to find out that apparently all the cool lore got flushed down the toilet and apparently the Tenno themselves are Evangelion child expies instead of horrifying biomechanical constructs of some variety.

I... what? Who thought this was a good idea remotely for the game to move it? Was it done purely to shove in the new mechanics for powers or do the devs just enjoy trolling the fanbase? My urge to finish the updates stopped right there upon reading that and completely killed my interest in it the despite being a fairly well-paying customer myself. Call me crazy, but running around as some prepubescent child in a dream machine doesn't really scream "fun", "badass", or "interesting" in the least, but rather seems like a fairly awful and complete screwball attempt to attract children to an M-Rated game about turning clones into sushi in increasingly inventive ways.

Who here actually liked the change? Who agrees with me in that it just seems poorly executed all 'round? My interest at least has been killed to the point that unless there's a retcon I don't think I'll ever pick up Warframe again despite sinking at least $60 or $80 into it. I'm sorry if I'm late to the party, but I can't help but voice my displeasure and ask if anybody else shares it.

http://www.strawpoll.me/10233077

The Tenno are the Tenno, the Warframe's are horrifying biomechanical constructs of some variety, and they are alive and maybe self aware, nothing's been changed, only your interpretation of certain lore entries. 

[CrazyValkyr]

To your question, OP, if someone actually liked the lore-reveal about the Tenno - I loved the Second Dream and my only regret is, that it's not replayable (that goes for all the quests btw), even if it'd not give the rewards - I'd just love to play it for the sake of playing & enjoying it.

Who would have thought that a Quest in an action/shooter game would invoke any feelings and connection to the story at all, when many other games fail to do so, even though they claim to be story-centric? I definitelly didn't expect that, but welcomed it. I can definitelly respect that there are people who didn't like it, and they are free to 'retcon' it in their headcanon, but that also is not a reason to make it all-bad for everyone. Everyone has different preferences and ways to have fun, but that doesn't make them any worse/stupid, etc; and to quote my friend from other game, relevant to the whole concept of having fun the way you enjoy it... -- "Your fun is not wrong."

[-Ropefish-]

2 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

To your question, OP, if someone actually liked the lore-reveal about the Tenno - I loved the Second Dream and my only regret is, that it's not replayable (that goes for all the quests btw), even if it'd not give the rewards - I'd just love to play it for the sake of playing & enjoying it.

Who would have thought that a Quest in an action/shooter game would invoke any feelings and connection to the story at all, when many other games fail to do so, even though they claim to be story-centric? I definitelly didn't expect that, but welcomed it. I can definitelly respect that there are people who didn't like it, and they are free to 'retcon' it in their headcanon, but that also is not a reason to make it all-bad for everyone. Everyone has different preferences and ways to have fun, but that doesn't make them any worse/stupid, etc; and to quote my friend from other game, relevant to the whole concept of having fun the way you enjoy it... -- "Your fun is not wrong."

 couldn't say better words if i tried 

[Doctor_Grayfield]

8 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

To your question, OP, if someone actually liked the lore-reveal about the Tenno - I loved the Second Dream and my only regret is, that it's not replayable (that goes for all the quests btw), even if it'd not give the rewards - I'd just love to play it for the sake of playing & enjoying it.

Who would have thought that a Quest in an action/shooter game would invoke any feelings and connection to the story at all, when many other games fail to do so, even though they claim to be story-centric? I definitelly didn't expect that, but welcomed it. I can definitelly respect that there are people who didn't like it, and they are free to 'retcon' it in their headcanon, but that also is not a reason to make it all-bad for everyone. Everyone has different preferences and ways to have fun, but that doesn't make them any worse/stupid, etc; and to quote my friend from other game, relevant to the whole concept of having fun the way you enjoy it... -- "Your fun is not wrong."

Mic drop!  Well played.

 

Moving on from this super "after-the-fact" rant thread.

[DaftMeat]

Can I have your Platinum before you go?

 

[DrProfSirCarmen]

But it never changed? There was barely anything concrete there before and tying those few things together leads perfectly into what we got. You are allowed to like or dislike it for whatever crappy, unjustified reasons, but you can't say that everyone else is wrong and you're right because you don't like it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SirCarmen

[Wyzilla]

1 hour ago, Rambit23Z said:

Just do what I do. Make your own headcanon and pretend like that part of the lore didn't happen. (You can turn off the operator voice in your settings)

A nice thought, but the problem is that "headcanon" is nothing but delusion in the end. Until roughly what I remember is something like 150 years after the deaths of the DE staff and nobody buys the IP from them, the only canon is the word of its creators.

1 hour ago, Gelkor said:

The Tenno are the Tenno, the Warframe's are horrifying biomechanical constructs of some variety, and they are alive and maybe self aware, nothing's been changed, only your interpretation of certain lore entries. 

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

1 hour ago, Jakorak said:

Dang OP salt is super real.

This was no "change" of lore. This was lore being filled in where there was holes conveniently left for whenever DE decided to tackle them.

1) Warframes are a more perfected form of the infestation: listen to all of the infested bosses for reference.

2) rhino prime's codex entry detailing the first time of a warframe being in a state of control: open-ended lore that is explained well by the tenno-warframe connection.

3) Ember/Prime's codex entry detailing a military ship that underwent a mysterious error resulting in only children survivors that are mysteriously whisked away by beaurocrats: open-ended lore that is explained well as the first void experiment that resulted in void enfused children.

In Devstream 72, the Dev's talk about why they chose this direction, generally resolving the long question of what the tenno were technically since changing warframes and warframe sexes didn't really make sense. As well the idea of the tenno child was chosen as a stylish counterbalance of identities, The metal and physical power of the warframes combined with the fragility and mental/void powers of the tenno combining as a harmonious mutual dependency.

Don't really get how Operators are supposed to be truly vulnerable or fragile when they're about as vulnerable as a USAF pilot flying a Reaper armed with hellfires. Sure if Stalker manages to track down an Operator they're screwed given their position, but in combat they're far less vulnerable than being inside the warframe itself given the "brain" remains even if the body is spaced/vaporized.

[DrProfSirCarmen]

2 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

But we still don't know the truth of the warframes in the first place, how the operator connects to it, how much pain they feel, what kind of emotional attachment they have or if the connected operator can be killed with enough repeated trauma or not. Frankly, until the day we learn what exactly a warframe is your whole argument s unfounded, you just come off as having a temper tantrum that you didn't get exactly what you want out of it.

[BornWithTeeth]

Also (yet again) a poll shows that actually, the majority of players who respond are in favour.

[NyxOOX]

61% Of those polled say that the "current lore" is fantastic. You appear to be getting rekt m8, just an observation.

[GhostSwordsman]

5 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

Did... did you even play the second dream?

 

Because all of this was explained in that quest. The Tenno... the operators themselves thought that they were the warframes. But, to quote the Lotus, "It was just a lucid, second dream."

Transference basically allowed the operators to put their mind into the warframes to control them. If that's the case, then after a while wouldn't one naturally come to believe that they are what they see in the mirror, so to speak?

If that's the case, where they believe they're the warframes, then they probably feel all the pain the warframes endure while in a mission. Which means that absolutely nothing is lost when Alad V is involved. You have to remember, that before the second dream, the operators have no way of actually waking themselves up, they don't know that they're really asleep. So in Valkyr's instance, it could be speculated that the operator went crazy because they thought they were Valkyr, and being cut open and experimented on is something that would scar you mentally. I doubt Alad V had enough compassion in him to try and sedate the warframe before cutting it open, meaning the transference link between the warframe Valkyr and it's operator was still active the whole time.

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Wyzilla said:

Call me crazy, but running around as some prepubescent child in a dream machine doesn't really scream "fun", "badass", or "interesting" in the least,

IMO you are reading way too much into it.  The game is far and large still exactly the same as it was before the second dream quest.  You still choose your warframe, you still use your warframe's abilities.  So what if there is a kid locked in the basement of your ship?  I won't tell anyone if you won't!

You literally only see the "operator" for at most 10 seconds when you activate a focus, and that's from behind while it flies around with energy shooting from it's chest.  Nothing in the game has changed so much that the knowledge that the operators are orphaned kids rescued by the lotus from some slave ship should affect gameplay at all.

Turn the operator voices off in sound options.  Choose your focus tree and move on.

At least until Lunaro comes anyway lol.

[Stratego89]

15 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

Nothing has been changed. LITERALLY nothing. Check the Ember Prime codex entry that's as old as time itself- it specifically referenced us as children, we just didn't know back then that it was us. Rhino Prime codex entry is showing the discovery of the transference effect- again we were referenced as being in the next room over. Lephantis and J-3 Golem made comments about us being their flesh. That's the warframes. Rhino Prime codex entry is the discovery of transference- and that discovery is what lead to warframes using infested tissues in them.

Nothing has changed. Everything has been sitting around for ages in tiny bits and pieces and us being the children was just the one last piece of the puzzle that made it all connect together instead of floating around not making any sense. If you interpreted the stuff differently- that's YOU. As you said "head canon in the end is just a delusion" What you thought before was the delusion. Nothing has changed- that's just a delusion.

 

As for the dissected frames- if you pay attention to the Tenno voice lines you can see that when a WARFRAME sustains an injury- the Tenno Operator FEELS it as if THEY were the ones getting hurt. We're not just remote controlling these frames like some sort of drone. We are CONNECTING to them. They are ALIVE (not sentient but alive) due to the infested flesh that we are connecting to. When the frame got cleaved open in second dream, we didn't feel it because we were not connected to it at that point. That's the only reason why the operator didn't end up writhing in pain. When the alad v victims were being dissected they felt it. Every... single... bit of it. To boot- until we escaped the moon, we had no clue whatsoever we even were controlling warframes. We thought we WERE the warframes (I'm talking in canon, in game. Not fourth wall WE thought, but the Tenno themselves thought they were the warframes themselves. The tenno says so to Lotus at the end of Second Dream). So being there, being held, being DISSECTED ALIVE- that would be not only physically tormenting but mentally and emotionally as well. There is no "boo hoo" about that. It's terrifying to imagine being in that position even. When something happens to a warframe- it "happens" to the tenno controlling it. And until the point of the timeline of second dream, they honestly believed it was as well.

 

None of the lore was changed. Nothing was thrown out the window or under the bus. Nothing was made any less important, or emotionally connectable. If you believe so- that's because the way YOU saw the lore, and how you interpreted it, was not how it ACTUALLY was. That was YOUR own head canon.

I hope that all this has helped you understand things better.

 

EDIT: One last closing thought. Since this thread asks for an opinion I'll give my opinion of the revelation- since there were no actual changes to lore. My opinion is that I'm ok with the children being the Tenno. What disappoints me is a lot of the cheesy stuff currently present in the game due to it:

Some of the voice lines make 0 sense- we were living for all this time experiencing everything from our warframe, yet the Tenno sometimes makes comments acting like they didn't know about the corpus or w/e until now.

Some of the voice lines are just cheesy one liners that shouldn't exist- we are OROKIN children, but not only do the Orokin live for HUNDREDS (confirmed) if not THOUSANDS (unconfirmed) of years meaning we are quite possibly physically several tens if not over a hundred years old already; but in addition to that we were in cryo controlling our warframes for a mental experience for who knows how long now, slaughtering people and fighting to the death. We should NOT be ACTING like children. Mentally we should be more mature than most human adults in the real world... That's something that bothers the heck out of me.

Overall the Tenno just talk too much. The game had a very stoic and often dark feeling to it. That atomsphere goes out the window when every 2 minutes we start talking unlike before when no one but Lotus or Ordis giving commands popped up on screen. They need to talk less frequently. Their lines need to make sense. Their lines need to be IMPORTANT. If they do this I'll have absolutely 0 complaints. (Oh and better voice acting might help too. That might be easier when the lines could be taken more seriously. You can almost tell even the voice actors thought most of these lines were ridiculous).

Edited May 17, 2016 by Stratego89

[Jakorak]

7 minutes ago, SirCarmen said:

But we still don't know the truth of the warframes in the first place, how the operator connects to it, how much pain they feel, what kind of emotional attachment they have or if the connected operator can be killed with enough repeated trauma or not. Frankly, until the day we learn what exactly a warframe is your whole argument s unfounded, you just come off as having a temper tantrum that you didn't get exactly what you want out of it.

^^^^

15 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

Don't really get how Operators are supposed to be truly vulnerable or fragile when they're about as vulnerable as a USAF pilot flying a Reaper armed with hellfires. Sure if Stalker manages to track down an Operator they're screwed given their position, but in combat they're far less vulnerable than being inside the warframe itself given the "brain" remains even if the body is spaced/vaporized.

We do already know that Operators feel the pain of their warframes. The Second Dream is named thus because the tenno were so mentally synched up to their warframes, they BELIEVED they were the warframes. You could extrapolate that the relationship is more akin to the matrix than a VR video game and that enough damage and the operator themself would die. You could then grumble about loss of immersion as you die and revive multiple times in mission and if you run out of revives you just fail a mission and return to your ship to lick your wounds but that's been an immersion breaker long before the tenno operators were involved.