Trinity Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Versa]

8 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

This game is not a WoW or similar game. Its' flow is completelly different, it's much more fast-paced.

In many instances/missions, players need to spread out, to be most efficient. In many cases, the maps are so huge, that you can't even get to everyone upon need. There's just no way. Reducing the Bless's range so drastically will make it almost imposible to get the healing done. I think this was a bad decision and way as to how to address the issue of 'invincible teams'. What it does, is, that it diminishes the support-ability of Trinity, alongside with the 'invincible team'. The thing is, I don't believe reducing the heal-capabilities, limiting them so severaly by range is a good thing. It addresses the real issue in a non-direct way; and in a very clumsy way. This will make the EV-Trinities even more a thing than before. It limits ways as to how Trinity can be played - and that's never a good thing.

I'd think that - Hard-cap the damage-reduction to 50% or similar, or even deal with the self-damaging Trinities & restore the full-map range, is what I'd suggest. The way this was done is way too diminishing for the 'frame.

In its current state the DR is effectively 55% in 4 person groups and 25% in 8 person ones and that is not near enough with this absurd enemy scaling it needs to be 80%+ to be particularly functional. preferably the 95% cap several other abilities have. Any less doesnt really allow anyone to stand in a position like the pads without instagibbing from a ballista/bombard. Im not sure that most people even understand how little even an 80% reduction is in a game like this where the enemy damage can double in just 15 to 20 levels sometimes. This is not even taking into consideration the 300% damage in T3/4.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[CrazyValkyr]

1 minute ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

In its current state the DR is effectively 55% in 4 person groups and 25% in 8 person ones and that is not near enough with this absurd enemy scaling it needs to be 80%+ to be particularly functional. preferably the 95% cap several other abilities have. Any less doesnt really allow anyone to stand in a position like the pads without instagibbing from a ballista/bombard. Im not sure that most people even understand how little even an 80% reduction is in a game like this where the enemy damage can double in just 15 to 20 levels sometimes. This is not even taking into consideration the 300% damage in T3/4.

Well, the whole-scaling of the enemies is iffy at higher levels, to the point it does turn into cheese-fest. There's just no time to get to people in time, even as a pure healing ability with the range-limit. Which only reinforces as to how clumsy choice this is, when addressing Blessing.

[Versa]

The enemy damage scales past ANYONES health so fast at lvl 100+ that these cheeze tactics are required to function. The frames come with the cheeze capability and they say that the game is ballanced around that point yet before fixing the enemy problems we are simply told that we are not allowed where we were before and trying to get there only results in pain. Its like how all the map boundary changes. I used to like flying around the sky in draco but now you cant go a mm to high or off the side of the tile without getting returned to the ground with abliities disabled. its quite saddening. Fix it in a way that people wont complain first rather than tearing away the fun of certain things before fixing the real problem which is, in most cases, not the overperforming items but all the underperforming ones and broken enemy functions.

[CrazyValkyr]

In general, how I feel about the 'nerfs'. The better way how to handle the situation is to deal with clearly underperforming 'frames, improve those; rather than to remove vital functionality of clearly good 'frames. This is what I feel did happen with Trinity. The way the game goes, flows and how fast-paced it is, the Healer 'class' can't work in the way it usually goes in MMO's & it won't work. The genres and styles of the games are just way too different. If they did want to implement this, they also need to address the enemy-level scaling at the high-levels. And if anything, that should have been given a priority before removing options from the players.

[Versa]

16 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

In general, how I feel about the 'nerfs'. The better way how to handle the situation is to deal with clearly underperforming 'frames, improve those; rather than to remove vital functionality of clearly good 'frames. This is what I feel did happen with Trinity. The way the game goes, flows and how fast-paced it is, the Healer 'class' can't work in the way it usually goes in MMO's & it won't work. The genres and styles of the games are just way too different. If they did want to implement this, they also need to address the enemy-level scaling at the high-levels. And if anything, that should have been given a priority before removing options from the players.

Exactly, especially since they certainly said that they wanted to increase build diversity. That is their entire reason for everything they have said about damage 3.0 and the multishot changes that they seem to want to perform. But until the system and players are capable of handling it, a severe reduction on functionality and interest on the players end will only cause grief. such severe changes should be given with the players having the positive first and then matched once a good ballance has been found is required to keep player interest rather than driving them into a hole. In my case for example, i main trinity with over 45% of my playtime between her and the prime. I very much liked her flow and utility before these changes. I had her rhythm ballanced, and now what? im told, "you cant do this anymore but enemies will still annihilate the squishy thing you are without this function." I pretty much only play because my trinity ive put so much time and effort into and its unfortunate to say i probably wont play very much of this game anymore due in part to the trinity nerf which entirely breaks my playstyle and all the other nerfs all at once being quite an unpleasant shock to how little emphasis is being put on enemy ballance and fun compared to how much effort there seems to be on reducing character usablility and fun compared to improving such details. Especially since the game scales indefinitely and they could technically just place the ballance around a new point and say that the introduction levels, the normal starchart basically, are a wider range of levels.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[CrazyValkyr]

Just now, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

Exactly, especially since they certainly said that they wanted to increase build diversity. That is their entire reason for everything they have said about damage 3.0 and the multishot changes that they seem to want to perform. But until the system and players are capable of handling it, a severe reduction on functionality and interest on the players end will only cause grief. such severe changes should be given with the players having the positive first and then matched once a good ballance has been found is required to keep player interest rather than driving them into a hole. In my case for example, i main trinity with over 45% of my playtime between her and the prime. I very much like her flow and utility before these changes. I had her rhythm ballanced, and now what? im told,"you cant do this anymore but enemies will still annihilate the squishy thing you are without this function." I pretty much only play because my trinity ive put so much time and effort for and its unfortunate to say i probably wont play very much of this game anymore due in part to the trinity nerf which entirely breaks my playstyle and all the other nerfs all at once being quite an unpleasant shock to how little emphasis is being put on enemy ballance and fun compared to how much effort there seems to be on reducing character usablility and fun compared to improving such details.

I understand you. I've played Trinity mainly to help newer players, as I had direct control and way of protecting them - and this change indeed does reduce her possibilities. Warframe's biggest appeal and strength for me was, that you could play the way it suited you; the way you enjoyed it. It promoted the diversity. But - I have faith in DE; they generally seem to do a great job at listening to the community. So, don't lose hope! :)

[Versa]

6 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

I understand you. I've played Trinity mainly to help newer players, as I had direct control and way of protecting them - and this change indeed does reduce her possibilities. Warframe's biggest appeal and strength for me was, that you could play the way it suited you; the way you enjoyed it. It promoted the diversity. But - I have faith in DE; they generally seem to do a great job at listening to the community. So, don't lose hope! :)

Unfortunately there is so much for them to have to listen to with 4 frames of negative changes and a few other changes all at one time that im worried it will just get put off, forgotten, buried, lost, etc before i can enjoy my character again. Its not that im impatient either, I waited 7 months for a primed continuity, flow and trinity prime, which I know would improve my experience some but were not required to keep my interest, so I am capable of some wait, But if it takes 6 months to an entire year before my trinity is even playable again... I dont think i could muster the interest to come back or even watch update notes for such changes,

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

I just tested Trinity on the Venus Alert solo (400/300): survived through 8 waves and 2 Hyenas (melee them for extra fire damage on her, too -- yeah, dodged and flew all over the map killing it and the other Corpus units) and the 3rd that spawned I just couldn't respond to it anymore (my hand is numb, and that's my hard limit of activity in moving the fingers).

Blessing worked well.

It's a tad buggy in how it's working though as it can heal when it can, other times it won't at all (need to click it twice, with the wasted energy as the consequence, but not a problem with Trin).

[Versa]

I will say for people here, in solo trinity is technically better than before the changes. Her damage reduction equation they goes from 1/150 to 1/150 squared which is 1/22500 making trinity capable of tanking anything even into the 1000s of lvl. For anything team based though she has become useless as a survival buffer. In a 4 person with self damage and undamaged teammates, the reduction is only about 55% in comparison to solos current 99.995556%.(1/22500) I have tested and no squad of anything at lvl 125 could even touch my trinity's shield by even 1 point. Still this game is so community driven that these changes can only be for the worse.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[Midguard]

Now I get why it was nerfed. Unlimited map-wide invincibility is obviously not the solution to scaling issues. But was there really no way they could have changed it so that the max-resistance was lower without being relatively impossible to predict, or, perhaps it could have remained map-wide so that you could at least predict how low the buff will be based on the entire raids HP.

At least if it was still map-wide, your function would be to bless ONLY when everyone is hurting, or by blessing you're faced with the meaningful choice of saving one person at the expense of reducing your current buff on the group.

Now, all meaningful choice is gone. There's no possibility to predict who is in range, who you're going to help, how much you're about to help, or if even 'helping' is actually just going to make the problem worse by removing a good bless for a bad one.

It's ruined. entirely ruined. And i can think of a dozen ways this could have been fixed without making bless entirely useless. Now bless is just another EV role. Spam bless when you're not EVing. thats is.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Midguard

[Lazarous_Schmidt]

Before you say "she's fine" Go try her in LoR NM.

[Versa]

1 minute ago, Lazarous_Schmidt said:

Before you say "she's fine" Go try her in LoR NM.

I will say that most people still here seem to be in agreement that she "isnt fine." that all these details being nerfed at once is too much.

[The_Archimedian]

1.  Trinity was meant to be a squad support frame.  Now, solo you get 99% damage reduction and in a squad you get approx. 50% damage reduction.  Huh?

2.  The reason people are freaking out is because 99% bless was a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself.  "Endgame" in Warframe equals ridiculous scaling of enemy armor and "one-shot, one-kill" enemy weapons, which is really not fun to play.  99% bless helped mitigate the rather silly endgame mechanic that Warframe uses to make a high level hard.

3.  Until you fix enemy scaling and endgame mechanics, bring back 99% squad bless.

[Versa]

13 minutes ago, SilentSabre6 said:

1.  Trinity was meant to be a squad support frame.  Now, solo you get 99% damage reduction and in a squad you get approx. 50% damage reduction.  Huh?

2.  The reason people are freaking out is because 99% bless was a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself.  "Endgame" in Warframe equals ridiculous scaling of enemy armor and "one-shot, one-kill" enemy weapons, which is really not fun to play.  99% bless helped mitigate the rather silly endgame mechanic that Warframe uses to make a high level hard.

3.  Until you fix enemy scaling and endgame mechanics, bring back 99% squad bless.

Exactly as you say and ive been trying to say many times. Bring down the enemies to something less than absurd and then match what the player uses or bring ALL the players items up to match the content. Leaving a very negative shock on the community is not a good thing and thats what a huge set of nerfs like these do, it brings down player motivation due to knowing that our capability was capped or otherwise reduced while enemies that are in the target ballance range run with rampant overpowered abilities with CC and damage. Trin was just one of the most capable ways to handle these rampant enemies until THEY are fixed. Breaking all the CC and invuln frames now is far too early, they are needed until the content is ready for them to be less if that is ever even NEEDED.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[Midguard]

Things you can no longer do with bless:
Know which players are in range,
Know if the players in range, are the people who need healing
Predict your reduction buff without complex mental math.

So I've come up with some super-simple solutions to our problems
1. Since it's impossible to know who's in range of your buff, lay a waypoint and have only people on the absolute verge of death run near you. This might require only playing with group members who can see the future, so that they know to get near you before they die.
2. Have all the members of your group maintain a perfect 50m radius from you at all times so you can move closest to the person who appears to be taking damage (But be careful now! Make sure you're looking at your UI health bars, and your reticule simultaneously so that you don't accidentally move in the wrong direction. I highly recommend having a lazy eye, so you can watch both at the same time.
3. Have all group members shout their locations into voice chat every time they move! Knowing where everyone is, is key. If they don't have a mic, give out your personal phone number!
4. Refuse to run any group content where one player might take more damage than another. Because if one person is low and one person isn't, your buff will be entirely meaningless!
5. Always let the person about to die, die! When you get lucky with a 90% reduction buff, never, under any circumstance, risk giving everyone a crappy 10% buff just so you can save your friend. You'll just kill everyone else.
6. Force every single person in the group to rank 10 different vitality mods to each unique rank, and before you begin a mission, make sure every single warframe has identical amounts of HP.
7. Go into your arsenal, and change your bless build to a hybrid build, so you can stand in your EV targets personal space, and spam bless once every second. Your job is now officially, awful.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Midguard

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

49 minutes ago, Midguard said:

Now I get why it was nerfed. Unlimited map-wide invincibility is obviously not the solution to scaling issues. But was there really no way they could have changed it so that the max-resistance was lower without being relatively impossible to predict, or, perhaps it could have remained map-wide so that you could at least predict how low the buff will be based on the entire raids HP.

It looks like a Raid/Sortie pas (as the 99% damage reduction is unworkable if they're trying to smooth the armor scaling ... IF).

But solo play isn't affected (so those who play solo it's not a Mag "rework").

[Avalona]

42 minutes ago, Lazarous_Schmidt said:

Before you say "she's fine" Go try her in LoR NM.

Why LoR NM? Why not JV raid :^)

Surely everyone outside doing the engine reset can survive on their own with their 5-forma archwings and able to dodge those invisible instakill missiles fine!

oh wait :^)))

[RiouHotaru]

The range limitation was abosolutely necessary.  It was BS that she could heal the party even if they're whole map-sizes away from each other.  Also 99% DR on demand for upwards of 20+ seconds was also ridiculous.

If your raids need map-wide blessings THAT badly then you need to rexamine how you run a raid.

Edited May 28, 2016 by RiouHotaru

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

The range limitation was abosolutely necessary.  It was BS that she could heal the party even if they're whole map-sizes away from each other.  Also 99% DR on demand for upwards of 20+ seconds was also ridiculous.

If your raids need map-wide blessings THAT badly then you need to rexamine how you run a raid.

It's good because it can keep the group near the healer, but the penalty is the DPS can kill all the targets nearby, and EV side of Trinity will be more difficult (have to have a target to EV even!).

[Lazarous_Schmidt]

29 minutes ago, Avalona said:

Why LoR NM? Why not JV raid :^)

Surely everyone outside doing the engine reset can survive on their own with their 5-forma archwings and able to dodge those invisible instakill missiles fine!

oh wait :^)))

Well this was entirely out of place... this is a trinity feedback page. That's why I mentioned LoR NM and not JV, since JV's issue is archwings.

[Lazarous_Schmidt]

18 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

The range limitation was abosolutely necessary.  It was BS that she could heal the party even if they're whole map-sizes away from each other.  Also 99% DR on demand for upwards of 20+ seconds was also ridiculous.

If your raids need map-wide blessings THAT badly then you need to rexamine how you run a raid.

Oh please, upload a video of how you run a raid, especially a NM one, without Trinity.

[(XBOX)kiljoy26]

Honestly why nerf trinity? She was one of the only ways to survive against those broken enemies past level 100. Youre making her job much more stressful since we have to make sure we are in 50m range. And that damage reduction equation really prefers solo trinity playstyles but trinity is a support frame....... Trinity is now almost garbage. Great job.

[-InV-igo95862]

26 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

If your raids need map-wide blessings THAT badly then you need to rexamine how you run a raid.

Please, you don't run raids yourself.

http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=RiouHotaru

 

[Avalona]

31 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

If your raids need map-wide blessings THAT badly then you need to rexamine how you run a raid.

Please, you don't run raids yourself.

http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=RiouHotaru

OK I admit I laughed

Edited May 28, 2016 by Avalona

[(PSN)EnormeMostro]

I wonder how people still can do Raids, NM Raids after these nerfs