Trinity Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Myamsa]

actually i didnt mind about bless 50m limit, about LOR or JV raid is now more tactical than before. Usually LOR or JV full of "oh u trin, please spam blesssssssssss even 3 of our team AFK on the starting point" it didnt make any sense. Now Oberon renewall have more function than before. Usually "why bring oberon while trin can heal instantly? oberon heal just for health and trin shield and health also." its not called nerf, its called rebalanced.

[PaintedWolf]

Just now, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

They did kinda over do all the nerfs today, i mean seriously, all at once? on 4 frames? and didnt touch any broken and unfun enemies? wow..

Yeah, nerfing 4 frames at once was a bit overwhelming.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

1 minute ago, Vuncarviun said:

I've done it before with a bless Trinity more times than I'd really appreciate. It's hard but can be done even without a cooperative team. I had a tendency to rush ahead of bomb carriers just enough to time an EV from bless just right. ^^

It's not very effective. Bless doesn't use range, EV does. Sure you "can" use EV on a bless trin, but unless the guy you're trying to top up is within a few feet he's not getting topped up. Problem is, in LoR you need to keep moving fast or you get shot unless you're on the ball with the CC. But CC needs energy. Which needs Trin.

[Versa]

1 minute ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

It's not very effective. Bless doesn't use range, EV does. Sure you "can" use EV on a bless trin, but unless the guy you're trying to top up is within a few feet he's not getting topped up. Problem is, in LoR you need to keep moving fast or you get shot unless you're on the ball with the CC. But CC needs energy. Which needs Trin.

I will actually admit that i have a bless trin build that holds 139% range along with maximized duration. 139% is nothing to scoff at if you have nothing else.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[PaintedWolf]

Just now, Cpl_Facehugger said:

It's not very effective. Bless doesn't use range, EV does. Sure you "can" use EV on a bless trin, but unless the guy you're trying to top up is within a few feet he's not getting topped up. Problem is, in LoR you need to keep moving fast or you get shot unless you're on the ball with the CC. But CC needs energy. Which needs Trin.

You could actually run a decently-ranged bless build if you're modding right while still having a maxed duration.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Just now, Vuncarviun said:

You could actually run a decently-ranged bless build if you're modding right while still having a maxed duration.

Yeah, while sacrificing the power strength that actually lets you top up your energy with EV in the first place.

[Versa]

2 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Yeah, while sacrificing the power strength that actually lets you top up your energy with EV in the first place.

wrong, i have a build the stats are as follows, 282% duration, 139% range, 130% PS. Max P flow and QT. No it not gonna keep a 0% eff damage frame going 100% of the time but how often is that going to happen in a raid? damage frames are not the norm i know of.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[PaintedWolf]

1 minute ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Yeah, while sacrificing the power strength that actually lets you top up your energy with EV in the first place.

Not really, actually. I could think of a few things that would fix this issue.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

4 minutes ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

wrong, i have a build the stats are as follows, 282% duration, 139% range, 130% PS. Max P flow and QT

139% range isn't a whole lot when you take into account the fact that LoR tiles are godawfully huge into account.

And neither is 130% power strength. You're talking 130 total energy there dispensed over the full 282% duration... Provided your the guy you're filling up remains near the enemy, which is certainly not a given.

Like, if bless trin could do EV trin duties effectively there wouldn't be a build for EV trin in the meta.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Cpl_Facehugger

[PaintedWolf]

2 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

139% range isn't a whole lot when you take into account the fact that LoR tiles are godawfully huge into account.

And neither is 130% power strength. You're talking 130 total energy there dispensed over the full 282% duration... Provided your the guy you're filling up remains near the enemy, which is certainly not a given.

Like, if bless trin could do EV trin duties effectively there wouldn't be a build for EV trin in the meta.

You shoot the enemy you EV so that the full energy is given out.

[Versa]

Just now, Cpl_Facehugger said:

139% range isn't a whole lot when you take into account the fact that LoR tiles are godawfully huge into account.

And neither is 130% power strength. You're talking 130 total energy there dispensed... Provided your the guy you're filling up remains near the enemy, which is certainly not a given.

When using EV on a high duration trinity, you already need to kill the enemy to get the energy at any decent pace. Its rather simple, tag an enemy near severallies kill and they get about 200 energy to work with, rinse and repeat. Its not comparable to an EV trin which gimps everything for range and strength but functional in a pinch. Its how i would normally play most of my longer survivals and it usually works well as long as someone isnt running very low eff build that is spammy.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

3 minutes ago, Vuncarviun said:

You shoot the enemy you EV so that the full energy is given out.

 

2 minutes ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

When using EV on a high duration trinity, you already need to kill the enemy to get the energy at any decent pace. Its rather simple, tag an enemy near severallies kill and they get about 200 energy to work with, rinse and repeat. Its not comparable to an EV trin which gimps everything for range and strength but functional in a pinch. Its how i would normally play most of my longer survivals and it usually works well as long as someone isnt running very low eff build that is spammy.

That doesn't work too well in practice. Assuming you've got 4xCP to remove the armor, you have to kill those level 80 bombards just as the guys you're trying to top up are zooming by. It's a lot more difficult than you're trying to make out. I've tried to run bless trins as ghetto EV trins in the past and it didn't work out well at all.

Again, if it was viable to take over an EV trin's duties with a bless trin, the meta would do that already.

[Versa]

1 minute ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

 

That doesn't work too well in practice. Assuming you've got 4xCP to remove the armor, you have to kill those level 80 bombards just as the guys you're trying to top up are zooming by. It's a lot more difficult than you're trying to make out. I've tried to run bless trins as ghetto EV trins in the past and it didn't work out well at all.

Again, if it was viable to take over an EV trin's duties with a bless trin, the meta would do that already.

I typically run either a dex sybarys with R9 primed bane mods or a rubico to oneshot or otherwise make very quick work of almost all enemies. Also why would i target the bombards? elite lancers are easy to deal with.

[PaintedWolf]

Just now, Cpl_Facehugger said:

 

That doesn't work too well in practice. Assuming you've got 4xCP to remove the armor, you have to kill those level 80 bombards just as the guys you're trying to top up are zooming by. It's a lot more difficult than you're trying to make out. I've tried to run bless trins as ghetto EV trins in the past and it didn't work out well at all.

Again, if it was viable to take over an EV trin's duties with a bless trin, the meta would do that already.

I don't thing neither me nor Kuraya are trying to say bless Trin makes EV unneeded or anything along those lines. I don't know about them, but I am just trying to point out that, even if only to me, getting energy with a bless Trin build wasn't that hard. This may or may not be because I had more than enough instances where I had to double as EV and bless with just a bless build, but I'm only trying to point out that it is possible but takes a pain and takes a bit of experience to actually get used to something like that.

 

As for the armour issue, I can easily kill groups of fully armoured Corrupted Bombards at level 125, which was tested in the Simulacrum. I take Tonkor as my primary (if not that, a Sancti Tigris can still 1-shot with relative ease) and AKStiletto Prime as my secondary to deal with nullies on Nightmare (because shooting those with a Tonkor is more trouble than it's worth at times).

[Versa]

2 minutes ago, Vuncarviun said:

I don't thing neither me nor Kuraya are trying to say bless Trin makes EV unneeded or anything along those lines. I don't know about them, but I am just trying to point out that, even if only to me, getting energy with a bless Trin build wasn't that hard. This may or may not be because I had more than enough instances where I had to double as EV and bless with just a bless build, but I'm only trying to point out that it is possible but takes a pain and takes a bit of experience to actually get used to something like that.

 

As for the armour issue, I can easily kill groups of fully armoured Corrupted Bombards at level 125, which was tested in the Simulacrum. I take Tonkor as my primary (if not that, a Sancti Tigris can still 1-shot with relative ease) and AKStiletto Prime as my secondary to deal with nullies on Nightmare (because shooting those with a Tonkor is more trouble than it's worth at times).

Exactly as you say, my bless trin is not a substitute to be exclusively relied on and made to replace an EV. Its only an auxiliary should it be necessary or if, in other mission types, im wandering by myself or there is no EV trin and need some energy for bless upkeep.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

3 minutes ago, Vuncarviun said:

I don't thing neither me nor Kuraya are trying to say bless Trin makes EV unneeded or anything along those lines. I don't know about them, but I am just trying to point out that, even if only to me, getting energy with a bless Trin build wasn't that hard. This may or may not be because I had more than enough instances where I had to double as EV and bless with just a bless build, but I'm only trying to point out that it is possible but takes a pain and takes a bit of experience to actually get used to something like that.

 

As for the armour issue, I can easily kill groups of fully armoured Corrupted Bombards at level 125, which was tested in the Simulacrum. I take Tonkor as my primary (if not that, a Sancti Tigris can still 1-shot with relative ease) and AKStiletto Prime as my secondary to deal with nullies on Nightmare (because shooting those with a Tonkor is more trouble than it's worth at times).

The thing is, it is that hard in comparison to an EV trin. EV trin can catch someone pretty much on one whole side of the puzzle room with the pads in the second stage just by tagging a random lancer anywhere on that side. Bless trin can't. In NM the pads are gulping down energy at an extremely high rate. Now if we could switch loadouts in between stages that would be one thing, bring two bless trins for the first stage and switch to EV trins for the second, but we can't.

So ultimately the suggestion of "just bring two bless trins" doesn't hold water because an EV trin in LoR NM is basically a necessity unless you want to make a mission that already has a very thin margin for error even more thin.

Even if this wasn't true we'd still be requiring even more coordination in a game mode that already has plenty to keep track of. There's basically nothing good about this change.

The DR reduction is crap too - DE should have made it so that self damage doesn't count towards bless DR just like how it doesn't count towards iron skin health, but that's not what's most egregious about this nerf.

[PaintedWolf]

Just now, Cpl_Facehugger said:

The thing is, it is that hard in comparison to an EV trin. EV trin can catch someone pretty much on one whole side of the puzzle room with the pads in the second stage just by tagging a random lancer anywhere on that side. Bless trin can't. In NM the pads are gulping down energy at an extremely high rate. Now if we could switch loadouts in between stages that would be one thing, bring two bless trins for the first stage and switch to EV trins for the second, but we can't.

So ultimately the suggestion of "just bring two bless trins" doesn't hold water because an EV trin in LoR NM is basically a necessity unless you want to make a mission that already has a very thin margin for error even more thin.

Even if this wasn't true we'd still be requiring even more coordination in a game mode that already has plenty to keep track of. There's basically nothing good about this change.

The DR reduction is crap too - DE should have made it so that self damage doesn't count towards bless DR just like how it doesn't count towards iron skin health, but that's not what's most egregious about this nerf.

Personally, I have the resources to burn into energy pads should that issue come up. However, I have never ran into this issue even as a bless-gone-"EV" because the enemies have a tendency to walk up onto the pads, even if 1 pad over from the person that needs the energy. As Trinities are typically the last ones to go on, I don't think this really would be TOO big an issue so long as energy is being given in some way to the vitals (Mirage and the Trins and any other CC that may be around, but these 3 are most important). Most people running Nightmare also typically have their own energy pads, so there's also that. Regardless, I always keep energy pads on me for sticky situations.

[Versa]

2 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

The thing is, it is that hard in comparison to an EV trin. EV trin can catch someone pretty much on one whole side of the puzzle room with the pads in the second stage just by tagging a random lancer anywhere on that side. Bless trin can't. In NM the pads are gulping down energy at an extremely high rate. Now if we could switch loadouts in between stages that would be one thing, bring two bless trins for the first stage and switch to EV trins for the second, but we can't.

So ultimately the suggestion of "just bring two bless trins" doesn't hold water because an EV trin in LoR NM is basically a necessity unless you want to make a mission that already has a very thin margin for error even more thin.

Even if this wasn't true we'd still be requiring even more coordination in a game mode that already has plenty to keep track of. There's basically nothing good about this change.

The DR reduction is crap too - DE should have made it so that self damage doesn't count towards bless DR just like how it doesn't count towards iron skin health, but that's not what's most egregious about this nerf.

The problem with no self damage is reliability. reactionary bless stops working at lvl 60 to 70 and raids are lvl 80 starting. there will be a player or two oneshot by a random ballista or bombard rocket and wasted time reviving them. in addition the stagger from QT can possibly stunlock the trinity them self to death quite quickly leading to a mission fail while attempting a revive should the worst occur.

[MINDL3SSVIOLNC3]

My feedback:

For anyone saying "Good this will force the team to stay together."

We all know it will not.

Now that is out of the way as Trinity is definitely in my top 3 frame list and I do love to play her I will say this seems like a slap in the face to me. I do not like these changes at all to Trinity.

IF you have HAVE to do something to satisfy your need to nerf every single frame, my suggestion is to change her back the way she was and hard cap the DURATION of the damage resistance to 3-5 seconds. This will give a heal and give you time to get out of danger if needed...that is what a support role healer should do get you to safety and patch you up. If that is just far too OP sounding to you still then impose a 3-5 second cooldown after the damage resistance has ended (total 6-10 second before reactivation) that way if you are in an overwhelming situation and its so much you cant get out of it with the first cast then you will still likely go down during cooldown. Or something to that effect.

Thanks for taking the time to read and I hope you will consider any alternative to your current course of action in regards to Trinity.

[Versa]

14 minutes ago, MINDL3SSVIOLNC3 said:

My feedback:

For anyone saying "Good this will force the team to stay together."

We all know it will not.

Now that is out of the way as Trinity is definitely in my top 3 frame list and I do love to play her I will say this seems like a slap in the face to me. I do not like these changes at all to Trinity.

IF you have HAVE to do something to satisfy your need to nerf every single frame, my suggestion is to change her back the way she was and hard cap the DURATION of the damage resistance to 3-5 seconds. This will give a heal and give you time to get out of danger if needed...that is what a support role healer should do get you to safety and patch you up. If that is just far too OP sounding to you still then impose a 3-5 second cooldown after the damage resistance has ended (total 6-10 second before reactivation) that way if you are in an overwhelming situation and its so much you cant get out of it with the first cast then you will still likely go down during cooldown. Or something to that effect.

Thanks for taking the time to read and I hope you will consider any alternative to your current course of action in regards to Trinity.

Here is the issue with hardcapping the duration, it completely undermines how many trinity's have formaed and modded their builds for years. In addition just heals do not work in a game with the volume of damage incomming like we see here in lvl 80+. if you heal someone for their full say, 2.7k ehp on a slightly tankier frame like frost, and the damage incomming is something like 1.5k to 2k per second, or in the case of balistas and bombards, 1 to 2k per SHOT then you must constantly heal them every second or so which is why damage reduction works and basic heal doesnt. In addition, into lvl 100 you get to oneshot range for all but very few frames not possesing reduction abilities.  Mirage has an ability that can get 95% reduction easily, so does Mesa who just got a few positive changes. Loki wont take damage unless out of invis which wont be much, or accidental splash from bombards which can be avoided. The only way to handle high level content in this game is severe damage reduction and HARD CC. As either you cannot ever take the shot or the shot must be dampened greatly.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

9 minutes ago, MINDL3SSVIOLNC3 said:

IF you have HAVE to do something to satisfy your need to nerf every single frame, my suggestion is to change her back the way she was and hard cap the DURATION of the damage resistance to 3-5 seconds.

With a cooldown, because the same effect they're nerfing will be there (as Trinity also is a battery).

Blessing isn't used much outside raids (just as a shield/health heal), as most run as EV builds anyway.

But this tuning appears to be DE's sortie pass, and they want to nerf the $&*^ens out of frames to make them last.

[CrazyValkyr]

This game is not a WoW or similar game. Its' flow is completelly different, it's much more fast-paced.

In many instances/missions, players need to spread out, to be most efficient. In many cases, the maps are so huge, that you can't even get to everyone upon need. There's just no way. Reducing the Bless's range so drastically will make it almost imposible to get the healing done. I think this was a bad decision and way as to how to address the issue of 'invincible teams'. What it does, is, that it diminishes the support-ability of Trinity, alongside with the 'invincible team'. The thing is, I don't believe reducing the heal-capabilities, limiting them so severaly by range is a good thing. It addresses the real issue in a non-direct way; and in a very clumsy way. This will make the EV-Trinities even more a thing than before. It limits ways as to how Trinity can be played - and that's never a good thing.

I'd think that - Hard-cap the damage-reduction to 50% or similar, or even deal with the self-damaging Trinities & restore the full-map range, is what I'd suggest. The way this was done is way too diminishing for the 'frame.

[Versa]

4 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

With a cooldown, because the same effect they're nerfing will be there (as Trinity also is a battery).

Blessing isn't used much outside raids (just as a shield/health heal), as most run as EV builds anyway.

But this tuning appears to be DE's sortie pass, and they want to nerf the $&*^ens out of frames to make them last.

I can reasonably accept a few second, like 2 seconds, cooldown like zephyr has on turbulence but this nerf to useablility is impossible.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Kurayami_No_Yenshi

[MINDL3SSVIOLNC3]

It wouldnt undermine it all I think. I have split builds for blessing (+duration) and EV (-duration) on the same Trinity. It wouldnt be anything less than taking out the duration mods and slotting in whatever you want which could improve EV on a Blessing build. Also in my method you are still getting 99% damage reduction just as before (depending on your health) just not in a way with which you can spam it. Which I would rather have 99% with a few seconds of me having to survive on my own than having 50% damage reduction being spamed to me....oh and only if I stay in the same room as Trin. Just my opinion though. Im only trying to make people start thinking of alternatives to this so maybe DE will implement something else because, again my opinion, I do not like these changes.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

21 minutes ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

The problem with no self damage is reliability. reactionary bless stops working at lvl 60 to 70 and raids are lvl 80 starting. there will be a player or two oneshot by a random ballista or bombard rocket and wasted time reviving them. in addition the stagger from QT can possibly stunlock the trinity them self to death quite quickly leading to a mission fail while attempting a revive should the worst occur.

Sure. That all sounds like a balancing mechanism to me.