Trinity Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Hortonman]

I don't quite understand the formula here.

"square(average health %)" is equivalent to "(average health %)^2", right?

If so, is health % treated as a decimal or an integer?

[Revahawx]

Just tested her out with the old 99% build. Now with a squad of 4 with full hp, it only gives arnd dmg reduction 55% (which will be pointless n useless at raids and any high end missions ) and has limited range such that I cant even use an EV build to spam bless across Draco. Good luck finding players for raids and enjoy the mediocrity that is the rest the game. I don't get why it needed a balance in the first place. Its not like I can just press 4 and get 99% dmg reduction. Most of us don't even use bless build outside of raids because to be honest, it is kinda irrelevent. It not like people are forced to play Trinity with bless build. If they think its OP, don't play it.You decide your own difficulty. This build is one of the essential tools to barely manage, not trivialize end game content for veteran players and the build is quite hard to achieve and master as it is. Please don't assume that an average warframe player will have the capability to pull off that bless.

My feedback to the balances:

1.Revert back the dmg reduction, 

2.Change the range of the blessing to 250m or revert back to infinite.

 

[Xaentrick]

2 hours ago, Yuemeria said:

Good let me know when a LOR party says LF - Chroma in the recruit chat, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

Actually did that the other day. As I usually host raid fun runs. Might sound odd but it happens.

[Nesit1]

Now that's a great step to perfect balance.

While raids may be actually harder, but that's point to nerf enemy damage, not buffing warframes to state "we are all gods"

Focuing entire team's gameplay around Trinity will make Raid way more interesting. Ev is still OP as duck.

So next step is probably disabling enemy oneshotting in Raids/Sorties, adjusting enemy scales - and there we go - fun raids and sorties.

While raids are already pain because of puzzles - disabling oneshotting enemies won't be problem. Also, Raids aren't popular and lower difficulty -> more players playing Raid.

[NezuHimeSama]

22 minutes ago, Revahawx said:

Just tested her out with the old 99% build. Now with a squad of 4 with full hp, it only gives arnd dmg reduction 55% (which will be pointless n useless at raids and any high end missions ) and has limited range such that I cant even use an EV build to spam bless across Draco. Good luck finding players for raids and enjoy the mediocrity that is the rest the game. I don't get why it needed a balance in the first place. Its not like I can just press 4 and get 99% dmg reduction. Most of us don't even use bless build outside of raids because to be honest, it is kinda irrelevent. It not like people are forced to play Trinity with bless build. If they think its OP, don't play it.You decide your own difficulty. This build is one of the essential tools to barely manage, not trivialize end game content for veteran players and the build is quite hard to achieve and master as it is. Please don't assume that an average warframe player will have the capability to pull off that bless.

My feedback to the balances:

1.Revert back the dmg reduction, 

2.Change the range of the blessing to 250m or revert back to infinite.

 

If you want to run late game survival, it's pretty necessary. There's also sortie 3 def missions, which it's really useful for.

All you had to do was hold melee and point down, then hit 4 for 99% bless. It def needed nerf. This nerf, however, breaks a lot of the game's content, and that content has yet to be adjusted for it.

Fix the content, THEN dish out the nerfs.

[kaelstraza]

Trinity

Let me state that I main Trinity and she is by far my favorite warframe to play. Everything I will be saying will be looked at from a support viewpoint since trinity is a support frame. I enjoy supporting my team, keeping them alive and keeping them in check. I am co-gm of my clan, I do the most theorycrafting in my clan and look at team composition and synergy more than anyone I know in the game personally. As such let's cut right down to the meat of the patch. 

The Changes -

Trinity Changes
•    Blessing: Blessing now heals Allies within the shared Tenno Affinity aura range. This Tenno Affinity aura range is a new UI feature available to all players beside the Shield Stat. This range is 50 meters from Trinity. 
•    Blessing still instantly heals all Allies (Tenno,Companions, etc) in range. 
•    Blessing's Damage Resistance is now calculated by the following formula: 
Damage Resistance % = 100 - Square (Average (Tenno Health %)). 

 

My feedback-

1. Blessing's range reduced from global range down to the affinity share range. I like this, it forces my team to be closer together looking into endless missions I want my team to be clustered together. For better spawn control, buff management and if a teammate gets downed we should be close enough to revive them. In short I LOVE this change.

2. Blessing still instantly heals all allies in range. No change, self-explanatory. Thumbs up.

3.A. Blessing's damage resistance is now calculated by, Damage Resist = 100 - (squared total % tenno health in range). For instance by myself in a mission I have 2/300 health I will get a 99% damage resist. However if one other person is in the game with me and is within range of blessing, I am again at 2/300 health, my teammate is at 300/300 health the damage resist for the whole team will be 74%. Now before I go on a rant let me say I completely understand why the developers did this, resisting damage is far too powerful. For example discipline priests in world of warcraft in the mists of pandaria expansion the classes specialty is absorbing damage, this support class complete overwhelmed every other healer in terms of support ability. The same thing has happened in warframe, outright resisting damage is too powerful to not use so other support frames/classes will get overlooked easily.

 

3.B. Now I would like to know where DE thinks waframe's endgame starts or what they judge their enemy scaling is tuned to for warframe abilities. Personally I judge every warframe at a 200 enemy level, and how well they can survive and help the team at that level. Anything below level 100 I turn my brain to low power because I think the enemies are too easy once all my weapons and warframes are formaed to my liking, which I would slap 8 forma on a weapon or warframe to get the most out of it, just to get that out of the way.

 

3.C. Let's get down to the 3 Builds I find viable for trinity and how this changes how I will play her, which I will also be telling you what I find fun and what I find boring.

Eve/Evamp Trinity: I will get straight to the point Evamp trinity is boring. It's spammy, it's like playing a 4ToWin Ash. I will explain, I am a support frame, I am not your excuse to be lazy, I am not your excuse to spam all the abilities you want because you can't aim a precision gun or bow, I am not your crutch to lean on because you might think you deserve all the energy in the world I am a gamer just like you and Evamp trinity makes you have bad habits it degrades your ability to think tactically. Ontop of the fact that with 15 armor if you get scratched by a flying grain of sand at level 60+ you die, it doesn't matter if you have overshields it doesn't matter if you try to move, you die over and over again. Trinity cannot be hit at all. What good is the healer if they are dead, no what good is anyone in your team if they are dead, it doesn't matter how much you could've done if you weren't downed because you are downed. You are out of the fight, dead weight and as my pride as a support player it hurts my pride to ever be downed when I should be helping my team, Evamp has the worst scaling period due to the lack of ability to survive.

Link Trinity: Good for soloing, easy to learn, not viable for 100+ enemies due to having only 15 armor and the link giving a total of 75% damage redirection. You will die and as stated above it doesn't matter what you do when you are dead. 

Blessing Trinity: Pre-18.13.0 the best support play-style in the game, you could keep your team alive for high duration missions, however this playstyle came with it's own costs and downsides. Firstly you have to take damage to the point where you would die, and within this one second period of not having the damage resist you would die if you sneezed. This was the rush of playing a blessing trinity, if you mess up you mess up hard there is nothing that can prepare you for a heavy gunner or bombard 100+ if you are caught off guard. The blessing trinity needed more energy than any other player in your team, needed to have the most focus in the entire group to make sure everyone else would survive, in case of the glaive with trinity the trinity kills themselves to support their team. It's a constant sacrifice on both the player and lore-wise the frame. 

Now with 18.13.0 this play-style I personally feel this play-style for me is ruined. I don't want to be forced to go back to Evamp trinity because I feel punished for wanting to take my team to higher difficulties. I can't go back and re-gauge myself to level 100 enemies now that I have already experienced a harder challenge. Don't get me wrong the overall damage reduction will still be strong and will therefore force me and my team to get better, but now it doesn't feel like there will be any rush to this build, that one second of where everything could go extremely wrong. I just feel the self-sacrifice made the build more enjoyable. It gave the build a little bit more depth. I enjoy managing buffs for my team and for myself. This may feel negligible for most players but to me where trinity is my favorite frame taking away depth to this play-style hurts me.  Also the fact that I need the blessing damage reduction more than anyone. I have 15 armor. As stated earlier you already know my thoughts on having 15 armor. If you could look at the blessing working similarly to mesa's shooting gallery I believe this would make more sense. I don't want to personally be punished like this due to the fact that I am trying to support my team.

 

---------------------

Again this is with a purely support based viewpoint. 

Moving forward I could get used to this however, I do hope other people with supporting their team will take with me about this change and collaborate so we can again support our teams to the best of our support ability.

I still love this game and enjoy playing banshee, mirage, mesa and saryn also looking at the mag rework she is a frame to look at seriously as a support frame.

 

Thank you for reading and taking your time and Thank you DE for making and maintaining this wonderful universe I can thoroughly enjoy.

Have a great day! :D

-Kaelstraza  

[Cpl_Facehugger]

5 minutes ago, Nesit1 said:

Now that's a great step to perfect balance.

While raids may be actually harder, but that's point to nerf enemy damage, not buffing warframes to state "we are all gods"

Focuing entire team's gameplay around Trinity will make Raid way more interesting. Ev is still OP as duck.

So next step is probably disabling enemy oneshotting in Raids/Sorties, adjusting enemy scales - and there we go - fun raids and sorties.

While raids are already pain because of puzzles - disabling oneshotting enemies won't be problem. Also, Raids aren't popular and lower difficulty -> more players playing Raid.

Sure. Any idea when this will happen? Right now we're in limbo with raids being much harder with nothing to show for it but the hope that DE will fix things... At some point. (How long did it take them to make shotguns good, again?). We need a huge nerf to the toxin cloud in LoR/LoR NM stage 1 damage over time and a smaller nerf to enemy damage in all three stages. When are we getting that?

If we're not getting it in a timely fashion, it might be better to just revert the changes.

 

3 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

All you had to do was hold melee and point down, then hit 4 for 99% bless.

 

That's with the glaive stuff, which means you can't use any other melee weapon.

[Chaosdreamer]

I guess DE is never done nerfing Trinity over time 

[-InV-igo95862]

Say goodbye to public raids. Essentially only people with competitive clans and voice communication will be able to run raids. DE removed a large chunk of content from majority of players.

Edited May 27, 2016 by -InV-igo95862

[Nesit1]

Just now, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Sure. Any idea when this will happen? Right now we're in limbo with raids being much harder with nothing to show for it but the hope that DE will fix things... At some point. (How long did it take them to make shotguns good, again?). We need a huge nerf to the toxin cloud in LoR/LoR NM stage 1 damage over time and a smaller nerf to enemy damage in all three stages. When are we getting that?

If we're not getting it in a timely fashion, it might be better to just revert the changes.

I honeslty prefer "impossible missions" over "press X to win missions". At least, something new. But hey, I still don't see a problem. Ev TRIN can restore hp easily (just stay grouped and don't run around like group of headless chickens), Vauban can lock down maps if he pays enough attention. EV is still OP as duck. There is still cheese way, just a little harder. 

But yeah, Nightmare 2nd stage of LOR is still stupid. 

[BCAW]

The only gripe I have with the blessing rework is the whole "damage reduction based on average of team hp healed" thing. Because now, Trinity effectively gets punished for having teammates close by. While she can still acquire up to 99% damage reduction in theory, it is almost impossible to do so in a group. Considering how low her survivablility stats are, she needs the damage reduction to stay alive in >level100 content. But if there are teammates around, she can't achieve the need damage reduction to stay effective at that level range.

[SilentCircle]

Ok, here's my feedback. Pluto, Cerberus, Interception

1) I'm capturing Point A - nobody is in affinity/healing range. (and I really mean nobody) I see someone's health going down, now I have to leave my capture point or he has to leave his and pray to make it across the map with low health. That's bad.

2) I now have to compare the little floating IGN's with the squad list to locate the right guy to heal. That's not fun.

3) Now 2 guys have low health, I look at the new affinity meter and 2 guys are in range. Great! Wait, or is it? Nope, that healed only one guy. Back to list parsing and name comparing and running around the map.

My suggested solution: Revert the range limitation of Blessing.

 

 

[rcastro13]

RIP

[__Timo__]

Where do I start? I really like Trinity although she is a supporter Frame and i usually dont like to play supporters. Her second, third and foruth abilities were great and most players modded her either for Blessing or EV. Both of those are essential in many high-level missions, especially EV. But Trinity was supposed to be a Healer too.

After the rework the damage reduction is pretty bad and it will not help in high level missions(the 50m range is ok). Why not use a EV Trinity then, which can heal the same amount of Health but gives no damage-reduction(cause its useless now)? Most of the Players wont mod for Blessing anymore and will only mod around her EV ability. In my opinion Frames should not have only one ability to mod towards and you should be able to play them in many different ways like the old Trinity or Frost for example: you can either mod him for Crowd Control and Slow or Defense and Strength. All of his abilities are useful and I want the same thing happen to Trinity again.In addition DE has nerfed quite a lot of Warframes in this Update(except Mesa-her rework is awesome)and they consider nerfing other things like the Tonkor or draco. I think they should not nerf everything, but buff something to compete with the good ones. There are a lot of weapons in the Game that are pretty old and nobody uses. And even some bad Warframes(ähem...Limbo...) Why not bring them to better standards istead of nerfing everything else? A lot of players will lose interest in the game because of just one update and even I consider to take a break.

 

So if anyone from DE reads this, pleas take the communities opinions into consideration and rethink the reworks.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

9 minutes ago, Nesit1 said:

I honeslty prefer "impossible missions" over "press X to win missions". At least, something new. But hey, I still don't see a problem. Ev TRIN can restore hp easily (just stay grouped and don't run around like group of headless chickens), Vauban can lock down maps if he pays enough attention. EV is still OP as duck. There is still cheese way, just a little harder. 

But yeah, Nightmare 2nd stage of LOR is still stupid. 

I meanwhile would rather have missions that I can actually complete, considering how there's content you can't get anywhere else locked behind those missions.

Also, the problem you're not seeing is how in the first stage the toxin drains everyone's health fast and in the third stage how the missiles will oneshot anyone without massive DR since you can't CC hek. I'm mostly concerned about the first one because at least Frost bubbles and a good loki decoying Hek can mitigate the risk, but there's basically no other way to heal in the first stage short of health restores.

I can accept the lack of DR, but the range limit on blessing is an abomination for anyone who does LoR for fun because of how huge those map tiles are and how necessary the ability to replenish health at will is there.

[Wynn]

1 minute ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

I can accept the lack of DR, but the range limit on blessing is an abomination for anyone who does LoR for fun because of how huge those map tiles are and how necessary the ability to replenish health at will is there.

This x1000

[Ravendy]

Is it affected by range mods? If yes, why doesn't it displayed at abilities menu? If it's not, then hard capping it at 50 meters is a stupid idea. In a lot of game modes your team need to split up to do it most efficenty. Like spy, survival, interception, sabotage and sometimes in exterminate. And raids are gonna be a lot toughter, and most of the team will need the means of self healing, which, except disks is not an easy thing. You only have furis mod and life strike except wrafe abilities. And those mods are not easy to obtain for new and not so new players. Nerfing damage reduction is a good thing, because it was easily abused. So now you need to fly all over the map like a crazy man to heal allies, because the game encourages playes to move, and nobody wants to stick in one place in a small 50m radius like in a box. I don't really know about this one. Now I just don't want to play as a healer character, I just can pick Wukong and be invincible. It's like WoW all over again.

[3tomatoes]

Good-bye, my love.

[Cryostasisprotoss]

I just don't understand people why do you rely on trinity that much? Try to move or think more strategically to do missions even raid, raid are supposed to be hard you shouldn't be able to do a raid like you are playing whatever mission it's a raid it is hard it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in the game, only experts should be able to accomplish not everyone. 

I just don't get it there are other frames that you could use like equinox for the enemy damage reduction, heal, cc and 80% slow. Or vauban that can lock down entire maps. 

Iam happy with the changes it will make people be aware of their surroundings.  And don't rely on trinity it make you have bad habits. You know when a trinity is is in the squad you can face tank everything. Now think twice about doing that because you will not be save. Think more, be tactical, be tenno master of the blade and sword.

[RazrOutlaw]

Dev's, I have to say, with this changes you've brought Trinity to the same lackluster level of Oberon, I mean, she's still great for soloing, but this was meant to be a Co-op game, honestly now we are only gonna see EV trin's everywhere, since that is much more rewarding than blessing, and I thought you tried to put an end to negative duration builds with all the changes you've done to drain abilities, Saryn and now even Mag

My feedback: Revert the changes & Try to find a way that self-damage & glaive bombing yourself isn't a thing anymore, if these changes are done, the only thing exploitable with Trinity will be her negative duration EV build, which is what you should get rid off, like you've done it in the past. I know the part about the self damage calculations is an actual pain to code for sure, BUT if there's a Dev team in the world that can do it, it's you guys.

[Wynn]

1 minute ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

I just don't understand people why do you rely on trinity that much? Try to move or think more strategically to do missions even raid, raid are supposed to be hard you shouldn't be able to do a raid like you are playing whatever mission it's a raid it is hard it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in the game, only experts should be able to accomplish not everyone. 

I just don't get it there are other frames that you could use like equinox for the enemy damage reduction, heal, cc and 80% slow. Or vauban that can lock down entire maps. 

Iam happy with the changes it will make people be aware of their surroundings.  And don't rely on trinity it make you have bad habits. You know when a trinity is is in the squad you can face tank everything. Now think twice about doing that because you will not be save. Think more, be tactical, be tenno master of the blade and sword.

Cryostasisprotoss have you done the nightmare raids without a Trinity before? I mean I guess it could be done if we all drop health pads non stop during the raids.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 hours ago, JohnViande said:

I think it had to happen. I just don't get why they'd do this before fixing the insane enemy scaling. They need to review their priorities really.

Can't do both at once. They'll need to know how health and all will be effected before (and IF) they smooth the armor scaling. They need the stats from actual game play compared to optimal max builds (that 10%).

Good scaling data factors levels; weapons; factions; and play type (solo/co-op/public).

[Cpl_Facehugger]

1 minute ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

I just don't understand people why do you rely on trinity that much? Try to move or think more strategically to do missions even raid, raid are supposed to be hard you shouldn't be able to do a raid like you are playing whatever mission it's a raid it is hard it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in the game, only experts should be able to accomplish not everyone. 

I just don't get it there are other frames that you could use like equinox for the enemy damage reduction, heal, cc and 80% slow. Or vauban that can lock down entire maps. 

Iam happy with the changes it will make people be aware of their surroundings.  And don't rely on trinity it make you have bad habits. You know when a trinity is is in the squad you can face tank everything. Now think twice about doing that because you will not be save. Think more, be tactical, be tenno master of the blade and sword.

Name me an alternative frame to heal with in LoR (NM.)

Oberon? Tenno flat out outrun his healing orbs.

Equinox? Same problem Trin has now except to an even greater extent.

Nekros? Desecrating won't help - enemies don't spawn fast enough to account for the massive health loss.

Uh... Who else? I'm drawing a blank for other healers.

Thing is, you need on demand healing to actually do Nightmare LoR without bankrupting yourself with health restore pads because the entire mission is covered in toxin which deals a major chunk of health per second. To everyone.

[321agemo]

22 minutes ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

I just don't understand people why do you rely on trinity that much? Try to move or think more strategically to do missions even raid, raid are supposed to be hard you shouldn't be able to do a raid like you are playing whatever mission it's a raid it is hard it is supposed to be the hardest difficulty in the game, only experts should be able to accomplish not everyone. 

I just don't get it there are other frames that you could use like equinox for the enemy damage reduction, heal, cc and 80% slow. Or vauban that can lock down entire maps. 

Iam happy with the changes it will make people be aware of their surroundings.  And don't rely on trinity it make you have bad habits. You know when a trinity is is in the squad you can face tank everything. Now think twice about doing that because you will not be save. Think more, be tactical, be tenno master of the blade and sword.

 

Please show me how to Dodge Vey Hek Homing missiles that can one shot frames in raid.

Please tell me how to dodge homing eletrical balls of death in JV raid that doesn't utilise 1 single frames ability to teleport.

 

This nerf punishes trinity and thats it. what has she gained from this?

except for being able to heal people instantly within a 50m radius, its worse than oberon's renewal, which can at least increase bleedout timer.

 

Im fine with the range nerf if that was it.

Im fine % reduction if that was it.

Im not fine with both.

Edited May 28, 2016 by 321agemo

[Emeki]

My main is Trinity, 52% 

I like the blessing damage reduction nerf because i think it was OP.

But WHY did you guys also nerfed the range ?

I mostly play Public games, and i like it. It's way more complicated now to heal properly public team. People are running everywhere except when it's defense or MD. It kinda break the frame for me. And because i mostly play Trinity, i feel so bad.

suggestions :

- Revert back the range nerf (or at least allow us to increase it with mods)

- Keep the % reduction blessing nerf

- nerf EV. It's boring. Make it fun !! I want to be a healer

- Buff Well of life, i never use it !

- Link need some love too

 

Trinity is a very special frame, so don't screw up please. I don't want to be a EV spam bot.

Oh, and this is what i see everyday on the LFG channel :

H Draco LF  EV ! H Draco LF  EV ! H Draco LF  EV ! H Draco LF  EV ! H Draco LF  EV ! H Draco LF  EV ! 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Emeki