Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Dracario]

2 hours ago, ExteriorJungle4 said:

If it worked like that before, I didn't see it. I was in the middle of a leveling binge, so I didn't touch my Mag much prior. However, I can confirm 100% that nowadays they do run right through, unless otherwise stunned in some way.

As for Polarize and infested... Well... Some have armor... Not many too terribly often though. Mag has traditionally not been too good against the Infested, and still isn't the best. Polarize is kinda just there for a shield regen if needed most of the time... So the same as with other factions at this point

this is where Magnetize is supposed to deal with infested (or Crush or Pull). the DoT would usually kill them all, effectively sealing off a choke point. But the suction is really bad so they can easily run right through it

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 hours ago, Hybridon said:

Can anybody confirm that before Specters of the rail, the Magnetize bubble would pull in enemies that walked through it, making it great to use on choke points and as general CC, but after Specters of the rail it isn't working that way anymore? Was on Hieracon (Pluto) and Infested just swarmed through it. I really liked its uses as a defensive ability and this seems like a bug. Can anybody confirm if this is intended?

Also, what effect does Polarize even have on infested as they are mostly just health, no armor or shields to strip? Do they even drop shards to interact with Magnetize?

Infested units are faster in general than Corpus and Grineer, even the Ancients when they sprint are about on par with melee/light moa. They always would be able to run through (unless the bubble was supercharged to kill them on entry).

I have inadequately explored this to state for certain, but there's a possibility that the auras of Healers and/or Disruptors might be protecting them from the vortex to some extent, too. At the least, the damage reductions help protect the other units while they run through the (now much less damaging after DE successfully bugged out all but a couple weapons to barely even contribute) zone.

[RealPandemonium]

52 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

now much less damaging after DE successfully bugged out all but a couple weapons to barely even contribute

That's a bit of a misrepresentation. Only continuous weapons and shotguns are really bugged; everything else functions as expected minus multishot and crit.  

Edited July 15, 2016 by RealPandemonium
Missed crit

[tnccs215]

I've discovered the Supra is quite the power house for Magnetize. Features high rate of fire and being raw damage (non crit), it's one of the best ones to quickly build up damage, as an added bonus, it's projectile based, which means the bullets will keep spinning around for quite a while inside the bubble.

[TheLexiConArtist]

7 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

That's a bit of a misrepresentation. Only continuous weapons and shotguns are really bugged; everything else functions as expected minus multishot.  

Not really. Crit, multishot (inherently shotguns as pellets function as multishot), continuous, any other indirect damage weapons (e.g. explosives and Torid clouds)...

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

I've discovered the Supra is quite the power house for Magnetize. Features high rate of fire and being raw damage (non crit), it's one of the best ones to quickly build up damage, as an added bonus, it's projectile based, which means the bullets will keep spinning around for quite a while inside the bubble.

Supra and Boltor Prime are pretty much your best bets in terms of upper-tier weapons that work. The Supra does greatly enjoy the big target, too, considering its usual recoil.

Also:

 

 

It is a thing to behold.

Edited July 15, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Hybridon]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Infested units are faster in general than Corpus and Grineer, even the Ancients when they sprint are about on par with melee/light moa. They always would be able to run through (unless the bubble was supercharged to kill them on entry).

I have inadequately explored this to state for certain, but there's a possibility that the auras of Healers and/or Disruptors might be protecting them from the vortex to some extent, too. At the least, the damage reductions help protect the other units while they run through the (now much less damaging after DE successfully bugged out all but a couple weapons to barely even contribute) zone.

I was seeing them get pulled in when close to the center, now they just storm through it. Thats the issue I see with mag, there isnt a realiable CC, Crush is terrible without the augment, Polarize doesnt do anything to CC, Magnetize doesnt even go by its name and Pull isnt that reliable also, I see a few enemies not get affected, feels really wonky and gets them flying around.

I love the rework, but it feels it got in that state that it needs a few tweaks to be on par, kinda like Frosts rework that was merely a question of tweaking to get him to be, imo, one of the only frames that has a good balance and use ofr all his 4 abilities.

[Dracario]

2 hours ago, Hybridon said:

I was seeing them get pulled in when close to the center, now they just storm through it. Thats the issue I see with mag, there isnt a realiable CC, Crush is terrible without the augment, Polarize doesnt do anything to CC, Magnetize doesnt even go by its name and Pull isnt that reliable also, I see a few enemies not get affected, feels really wonky and gets them flying around.

I love the rework, but it feels it got in that state that it needs a few tweaks to be on par, kinda like Frosts rework that was merely a question of tweaking to get him to be, imo, one of the only frames that has a good balance and use ofr all his 4 abilities.

earlier i suggested a synergy filled kit for her without the need to alter abilities entirely, another person came and refined it afterwards.
 

However, Im being to rethink about the pull and magnetize. I was thinking it shouldn't be a super wide range (like Banshee's Resonating Quake) it should at least be based around Pull's maximum range. it should be as if Mag herself was standing in the middle of Magnetize and enemies getting pulled in.


Also i had a funny augement idea for pulling into magnetize. Armor and Shield shred when enemies are pulled into the bubble. Far superior to Polarize lol

[Replacement]

This is such a Eureka! moment that it probably deserves its own thread, instead of 48 pages of complaining about shield polarize:

Bullet Jump Vacuum should drag shrapnel in your wake.

The synergy is obvious.  The mechanics are there.  Make them work together!

Also

Why did you make an "on death" Energy Orb for a minor damage, unscaling nuke that Scott even said on stream he likes for the crowd control instead of the damage?  This is a silly thing to spend her power budget on, and just makes her more powerful when needs it least: against weak enemies.

[Comradicus_Prime]

17 minutes ago, Replacement said:

instead of 48 pages of complaining about shield polarize:

 

It's not 48 pages of complaining about shield polarize. While most of us are pretty upset about it's current state, we also discussed; the buggy mess that is magnetize, where only a specific list of weapons work with it, the passive she has was talked about, though only briefly, and we developed a build that we would more or less wish to see implemented that at least those whom have responded to it believe would be a better and balanced Mag that is not the pretty trashy one we have nowadays.

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, ExteriorJungle4 said:

It's not 48 pages of complaining about shield polarize. While most of us are pretty upset about it's current state, we also discussed; the buggy mess that is magnetize, where only a specific list of weapons work with it, the passive she has was talked about, though only briefly, and we developed a build that we would more or less wish to see implemented that at least those whom have responded to it believe would be a better and balanced Mag that is not the pretty trashy one we have nowadays.

Ok, these are fair points.

But we can all agree that if Vacuum Passive is here to stay, Bullet Jump Vacuum should drag shrapnel in your wake, right?

[Comradicus_Prime]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

Ok, these are fair points.

But we can all agree that if Vacuum Passive is here to stay, Bullet Jump Vacuum should drag shrapnel in your wake, right?

If we are gonna have to keep this crappy passive, I agree, they should do at least a little more so you can kinda collect them up

[Replacement]

I have to be honest: I really enjoy taking Helios everywhere and feel like bullet jump is good enough for collecting stuff.

As I mentioned previously (like 20 pages ago - can you tell I dislike the "megathread" format?), Mag's kit is already awesome on paper:

• A passive ability to pull in drops - even those you don't actually use (you've all seen the full ammo drops bouncing around in your wake, right?)
• A positional tool that also serves as a snappy crowd control option
• An incredibly versatile skill that turns enemies' strength against them.  Can be used defensively and offensively, relying on choosing the right targets in the right spots.
• A skill that focuses more on making massive amounts of enemies easier to kill than actually dealing kill blows, and leaves objects on the ground that, if in the right place, contribute to her power
• ...a really bland aoe nuke.  Ok, there's not a lot going for Crush, though to a non-warframe player, it would probably sound nice to have an on-demand direct damage attack.

While I do think she still needs some work (polarize vs shields), some easy changes would improve her tactical experience: the no-brainer shrapnel vacuum, Pull actually pulling targets to Mag so you can put your Magnetize where you want it.

Btw, I just read your "Acceptable is such a strong word" post, @ExteriorJungle4 and our views are mostly aligned - it looks like we tend to differ on some fixes but agree on the problems. There are lots of things to do after implementing easier synergy like I outlined above, but I'm more interested in building a Mag 2.1 than what feels like an entire community wishing for a return to Mag 3.0 or going back to Launch Mag.

AlsoherAugmentsaretrash

[Comradicus_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Btw, I just read your "Acceptable is such a strong word" post, @ExteriorJungle4 and our views are mostly aligned - it looks like we tend to differ on some fixes but agree on the problems. There are lots of things to do after implementing easier synergy like I outlined above, but I'm more interested in building a Mag 2.1 than what feels like an entire community wishing for a return to Mag 3.0 or going back to Launch Mag.

AlsoherAugmentsaretrash

I am more inclined to say she needs a lot more work, rather than just tweaking. Cause in the current state, the press 2 to win formula is still her go to in higher end content... You know, provided it doesn't bug out.

And I must agree on the augments thing. Outside of Shield Transference for a bit more survivability, I never use the other two. Greedy Pull was nerfed when it was the lesser partner in the Mesa + Mag death combo way back when. And fracturing crush... Well, when I first used it and it completely broke, I never used it again.

[Cytobel]

I'm a Volt player with a serious (and totally unjustified) hatred for Mag, but I've got to say she's in a better place, for the most part.  She went from something I wouldn't touch to a 'Frame that feels like it is trying to mean business.

I brought Volt into this for a reason though.  In my (meaningless) opinion, BOTH 'Frames suffered by the division of attention between them.  Neither 'Frame seems to be getting the needed polishing (heck, the completed reworks) they deserve.  In both cases there was a damnable sense of "good enough for government work" and a feeling of abandonment.

I may hate Mag's miserable viscera, but she doesn't deserve this crap anymore than Volt does.  Honestly, the worst part of the Update so far has been this cliffhanger BS on two 'Frames that weren't in a really great place to start, and now are left in a hole of "good enough".  It isn't that everything that's happened was BAD, it's just UNFINISHED.

That irks me.  Especially when I was beginning to sort of enjoy Mag's new silliness...

EDIT:  No, I don't know why I hated Mag for years.  I didn't like how she looked, played, or anything about her.  NO JUSTIFIABLE REASON FOR IT.  I like her play a bit more now, and that Alata skin...

Edited July 16, 2016 by Cytobel

[Dr.Evergreen]

Shield Polarize is too much slower compared to older hitscan cast.

and what about the fall-off distance?

also it should damage the drained enemies' health, (5~10% * 250% * Power Strength)

[Comradicus_Prime]

4 hours ago, Chantepleur said:

Shield Polarize is too much slower compared to older hitscan cast.

and what about the fall-off distance?

also it should damage the drained enemies' health, (5~10% * 250% * Power Strength)

As an avid Mag, that first part is probably a reasonable nerf. Mag could just instantly nuke an entire tile by pressing 2. The expanding bubble I'm fine with because it is like an expanding wave of inevitable nothing. Hopefully death if they put it back to scaling, cause that was an unreasonable nerf.

I am not aware of fall-off distance, unless you are referencing the blast radius, to which I reply, "Power Range"

And I disagree it should damage health. Polarize never was about direct health damage, it was all about taking an enemies protection and turning it against them with a blast dependent on shield stripped.

[Aquasurge]

well, this happened: 

 

[Circle_of_Psi]

What do you people think of this Rework?: 

 

 

[Dracario]

30 minutes ago, LegionCynex said:

What do you people think of this Rework?: 

 

 

eh... then a bunch of people would have to relearn her. Plus i don't necessarily agree with the 4th ability. Mag is more of utility frame, Magnetize wouldn't synergize well with the rest of the said kit. Also Volt is just as a good as a support frame due to Capacitance, Speed and Electric Shield. Volt is also a starter frame that can be a good support even without Capacitance. He gives move speed, complete and mobile shielding, as well as CC. The way the starter frames are is we have Excalibur with high damage abilities and syngery with the Skana; Mag with utility and CC with her Polarize instantly stripping low level armor and shields as well as focused CC on chokepoints with Magnetize (placement of Magnetize is still accepted on enemy or area); and Volt with his support and defenses, Discharge turning enemies into tesla coils and the rest i had explained earlier. A rework would take longer than altering her current abilities if DE wanted to take the easy route. The concept of the rework in the video is great but not necessarily what we needed.

tl;dr Mag is a utility frame, Volt is a support frame, Excalibur is damage frame. If players wanted to play the support role they can go Volt (insert pun of location here). It's a rework we deserved but don't really need.

[TheLexiConArtist]

A summary of the linked Youtube video for potential Mag tweaks/reworks:

 

 

• Passive changed entirely to increased Overshield cap (personal and party)
• Pull changed to chance of energy on hit rather than on kill (with internal cooldown per enemy), at a lower chance than current.
• Magnetise slightly bigger, castable on enemies or terrain, gravitation increased on armourless/shieldless enemies, all enemy shots absorbed no longer damage player (e.g. Bombard rockets)
• Polarise damage removed, scaling defense removal (70%, or 100% at 145% power-strength), enemies cannot regen shields for a short time. Shield Transference baked in (and applies to stripped armour), but augment altered to allow stripped armour to be given to allies as well.
• Crush removed and replaced with a long cylindrical ultimate that applies knockdown/root to all enemies caught for a medium length of time, also damaging any shieldless/armourless enemies as per Snowglobe (finisher damage) in the process.

Edited July 19, 2016 by EDYinnit
Removed reference to deleted posts

[Paxolotl]

20 hours ago, Lazarus-Fox said:

Two little adjustments are needed for Mag - in my opinion.

1st - Mag is a caster frame - give her a caster-related energy pool.
No idea why she has a Rhino-ish pool when she is as fragile as Nyx.
Theres a specific mod that helps squishier caster frames to deal with higher leveled enemies: Quick Thinking. Currently, it has no / very little use on Mag.


2nd - "Shield Transference" Mod needs to affect all squadmembers (in range).
She used to give overshields to everyone - and that needs to be the case again.

Currently, Mags biggest drawback is her survivability due to her tiny energy pool, realiance on Overshields, and maybe the sheer endless animation of Crush.

Magnetize:
I actually find magnetize one of the most interesting abilities of any warframe - for me, it has become mags new signature ability. I wouldnt change it at all.

[Jackviator]

Personally I think Brozime did a pretty good job of summing up changes that would just make mag arguably better, but he may have overdone it on a few points. Personally I think double overshields would be a bit much, maybe cap it at 50% extra instead of doubled. Also, polarize shouldn't take away 100% of armor, that's just straight up OP, but I do agree that it NEEDS to scale to be an effective ability in areas above level 40. Perhaps it would require 150-200% power strength to take away 75% of armor, and cap it there?

Otherwise, pretty solid ideas. Her passive + polarize + crush just need to be changed, and I personally believe that mag's teammates should be able to shoot through the bubble at other enemies, b/c otherwise she's close to Limbo in annoyance levels.

[tnccs215]

5 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

A summary of the linked Youtube video for potential Mag tweaks/reworks:

 

 

• Passive changed entirely to increased Overshield cap (personal and party)
• Pull changed to chance of energy on hit rather than on kill (with internal cooldown per enemy), at a lower chance than current.
• Magnetise slightly bigger, castable on enemies or terrain, gravitation increased on armourless/shieldless enemies, all enemy shots absorbed no longer damage player (e.g. Bombard rockets)
• Polarise damage removed, scaling defense removal (70%, or 100% at 145% power-strength), enemies cannot regen shields for a short time. Shield Transference baked in (and applies to stripped armour), but augment altered to allow stripped armour to be given to allies as well.
• Crush removed and replaced with a long cylindrical ultimate that applies knockdown/root to all enemies caught for a medium length of time, also damaging any shieldless/armourless enemies as per Snowglobe (finisher damage) in the process.

Problem with those "needed" changes is that some arent needed, just desired. These include, but are not limited to, the passive change, every magnetize change proposed (pleasent, but not required), every polarize change, and the proposed alteration to Crush.

Most of them are just possible alterations, and some aren't even "obviously good". I don't like the ultimate change, for example, and while I do think the defense buffs proposed to polarize are good, I don't find the stripping ones required. Indeed, I find them kinda boring. (I'm more of a fan of x% shield/armor removed+ Y shield/armor removed).

Additionally, they fail to put some substantially more fundamental and arguably popular changes: Magnetize damage absortion no longer ignoring multishot nor crit, one-handed/faster magnetize cast, bigger energy pool.

In summary, his propositions aren't bad, but they are neither all required, nor all that's required.

[tnccs215]

22 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Personally I think Brozime did a pretty good job of summing up changes that would just make mag arguably better, but he may have overdone it on a few points. Personally I think double overshields would be a bit much, maybe cap it at 50% extra instead of doubled. Also, polarize shouldn't take away 100% of armor, that's just straight up OP, but I do agree that it NEEDS to scale to be an effective ability in areas above level 40. Perhaps it would require 150-200% power strength to take away 75% of armor, and cap it there?

Otherwise, pretty solid ideas. Her passive + polarize + crush just need to be changed, and I personally believe that mag's teammates should be able to shoot through the bubble at other enemies, b/c otherwise she's close to Limbo in annoyance levels.

Said it before, will say it again: I'd rather have Fracturing Crush become default than make polarize purely percentual. With the right combination, you can strip clean the armor of level 140 corrupted heavy gunners. It's more energy costly, but more rewarding and interesting.

additionally, I don't understand the fuss about her passive. It is both useful and makes sense, without being overpowered. Perfect in my eyes.

And his proposed Crush substitute... Eh, nah. We already have enough CC nukes around. No need for more cheese.

Additionally, I have to say that Magnetize is nowhere near Limbo-level of annoying. In some cases, it is less annoying than snow globe. All this because, even though you can't shoot through it, you still can contribute to the overall DoT and explosion damage of the bubble. Seems pretty good to me.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Problem with those "needed" changes is that some arent needed, just desired. These include, but are not limited to, the passive change, every magnetize change proposed (pleasent, but not required), every polarize change, and the proposed alteration to Crush.

Most of them are just possible alterations, and some aren't even "obviously good". I don't like the ultimate change, for example, and while I do think the defense buffs proposed to polarize are good, I don't find the stripping ones required. Indeed, I find them kinda boring. (I'm more of a fan of x% shield/armor removed+ Y shield/armor removed).

Additionally, they fail to put some substantially more fundamental and arguably popular changes: Magnetize damage absortion no longer ignoring multishot nor crit, one-handed/faster magnetize cast, bigger energy pool.

In summary, his propositions aren't bad, but they are neither all required, nor all that's required.

Passive, I couldn't care too much either way. I don't really use many augments to begin with, so Shield Transference has never been 'core' or key to any Mag gameplay at all in which I've engaged. I do sympathise with the context given in the video though, people have been wanting global access to a vacuum effect (not just <* + Carrier> or <Mag + *>).

The change to pull, I think, is too much load. Supporting an extra 1-8 timed ICDs on every enemy entity is going to bring in way too many unnecessary checks. Perhaps "On kill" would be better served as "If killed within the next X seconds" instead, that way it's just a refresh of duration, not a check and trigger for each cast.

Magnetise definitely needs fixing first, tweaking second if at all. It might be fine for new players (lacking the mods for multishot outside of shotguns, or a proper reliable crit build) but it scales less than it should because of those shortfalls, not to mention the issue of moving/dying targets causing bad placements or wasted energy. I'd be happy if ground-placement was an option, whether baked in or augmented.

Polarise, I agree with you, is better served as a percentile-plus-flat. If it's a flat percent that doesn't scale with power strength, then you have a statically relevant defense removal without the total trivialisation of casually shredding off 100% on a single cast of an ability that can go for miles. The remnants will still leave enemies to scale non-trivially, and lets Power Strength still be relevant enough in the impact of a given number of casts to achieve full shred while the percent value has diminished.

Crush.. Hey, I use it sometimes, but not often. It could easily be tweaked into something much more reliably useful by being a bit faster and/or adding in some protections while in the cast process. Maybe consider a temporary Turbulence style of projectile deflecting because of the magnetic forces, something something. It's a good Control ult, damage is absolutely secondary (50% finisher damage on a huge potential target count what, Brozime?)

 

Definitely accurate points on the energy load, though. Not even able to get a single Magnetise cast off on an energy reduction Sortie without Flow/Efficiency is ridiculous. Bigger pool would be much better.