When everything is nerfed, where is the motivation for the heavy grind of Warframe

[VKhaun]

Just now, kalikilic said:

is the grinding habit leading to ppl cheesing warframes and abilities? is it poor level design? is it poor enemy scaling? is nerfing really the option that will solve the root of the problem? what is the root of the problem? the exponential increases that early mods like serration gave us? which then lead to a demand for OP mobs? which then led to mobs being too OP and cheesing their own powers against players? which led to players cheesing warframe powers and abilities themselves?

Nerfing IMO.

When your metric is speed and your gameplay is "grinding" then all you're speeding towards is more grinding to do more speedy grinding. All you can do with your shiny new frame or weapon, is farm/grind the next shiny frame or weapon.

The weak link in this endless chain of failure is not the rewards or the speed, it's the boring gameplay. You can look to games like chess and see people playing them for hours on end with no progression, no character building and no rewards. No one says they're "grinding" football or "farming chips" in poker.

Warframe is not yet in the category of playable just to be played, at least not entirely, or at least not for a large enough demographic. To improve they need to continue what they've been doing, which is getting away from the MMORPG content-locust headspace and making top tier play interesting, challenging, and fun.

Simplistic OP skills are speedy but they are not fun. They are repetitive and not interactive. Making them interesting, engaging and conditional is nerfing by the community's definition. That means we need nerfs.

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 minutes ago, VKhaun said:

The weak link in this endless chain of failure is not the rewards or the speed, it's the boring gameplay. You can look to games like chess and see people playing them for hours on end with no progression, no character building and no rewards. No one says they're "grinding" football or "farming chips" in poker.

It's digital with a mechanical feel, that "beating the machine."

I enjoy jigsaw puzzles. Bigger the better. Will never get old ... because it's not just a formula to beat.

When we see a nerf based on a formula ... and game websites about math of coefficiency; and the physics of particle effects, what DO people even want in a game? They say challenge, but is it even that?

It seems people just want to get away from boredom (like not grinding Archaeology!).

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, VKhaun said:

The answer is in the question. You're supposed to play a game because it's fun. If you're "grinding" instead of playing for fun nothing is going to make sense to you when the game designers try to make the game more fun and less repetitive.

The devs share some blame for an XP system that lets people sit there on Draco forma'ing their stuff without using it and leaving the star chart stagnant for so long, but at the end of the day improving the game is not going to lead to a situation where "grinding to become OP" will make any sense at all. You're going to be playing a variety of interesting things rather than grinding and your end game is going to be engaging and challenging rather than press4win or perma invulnerability or what have you.

One of the smartest comments I've seen since the patch.

[-Temp0-]

15 minutes ago, ZaiTheFish said:

Why do people feel the need to complain about the changes to the frames?  Like, did you honestly believe that god-mode wasn't going to get nerfed at some point?

I personally believed that we won't need a godmode and hard CC just to be able to normally play raids - because you know, that is actually should've been balanced and redone literally yesterday already. But since some **** decided to first nerf and nuke sht to the ground and MAYBE way, way later - at the very least a month from then nerf some enemies to even begin to match our current warframes' level?...

Like literally, idiocy at it's finest. Made enemies even more OP than they already were and let us deal with it for at the very least a month.  And 7 formas for Excalibur that no one will give back to me - never forgive, never forget. Removed all kind of motivation to ever bother with the formas.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[Homer87]

16 minutes ago, ZaiTheFish said:

Why do people feel the need to complain about the changes to the frames?  Like, did you honestly believe that god-mode wasn't going to get nerfed at some point?  It's something that shouldn't be in any serious games.  It's not that DE is just nerfing frames to see your reactions, they're doing it for the well-being of the game.  Keep in mind that frames aren't the only ones being changed, enemies will be changed too.

Remember, this is after they received a ton of backlash about the nerfs that were passed along with the last update. This had been brought to their attention before, but it seems as if this was the final straw for people who like doing endurance runs.

[Me.KayOh]

3 minutes ago, VKhaun said:

Nerfing IMO.

When your metric is speed and your gameplay is "grinding" then all you're speeding towards is more grinding to do more speedy grinding. All you can do with your shiny new frame or weapon, is farm/grind the next shiny frame or weapon.

The weak link in this endless chain of failure is not the rewards or the speed, it's the boring gameplay. You can look to games like chess and see people playing them for hours on end with no progression, no character building and no rewards. No one says they're "grinding" football or "farming chips" in poker.

Warframe is not yet in the category of playable just to be played, at least not entirely, or at least not for a large enough demographic. To improve they need to continue what they've been doing, which is getting away from the MMORPG content-locust headspace and making top tier play interesting, challenging, and fun.

Simplistic OP skills are speedy but they are not fun. They are repetitive and not interactive. Making them interesting, engaging and conditional is nerfing by the community's definition. That means we need nerfs.

 

Enemies need a dire looking at then.

Because the factions are what makes the game what it is. and changes to the factions will change the way people play the game. iirc between 2014 and 2015 enemies were on the receiving end of alot of buffs, made more apparent by the introduction of damage 2.0.

This is like George Orwell's Animal Farm. At the end of that book, the farm animals were looking at the pigs, and then at the humans, and then back at the pigs and then the humans again. And the poor animals saw no difference between the two different species. Just like this one mirage that will cheese her Prism and that synoid simulor, you can be assured that enemies at a much higher level will be equally OP.

enemies with oceans of health are not interesting. grappling hook aimbots are not engaging. What you assume the "community's definition" of nerfing is, would remain true for the people who have lost the ability to cheese warframe powers and weapons over time when changes are made.

But its an assumption that may not hold true for other people who play the game. Do those other people not matter?

In this specific game, nerfing a warframe's ability is not the only avenue to make things interesting, engaging and conditional. its a simplistic bandaid fix. In some cases it surely does remove the exploitative nature of powers, which is a good thing, e.g. the aimbot Mesa which was then changed. But the root of the problem remains unsolved.

[(PSN)I_AM_FIRED_UP]

I think they should have changed the enemies before the "nerfing". Raids are more impossible now. I did the nightmare one yesterday and it was hard but now with mirage and blessing got nerfed it is more impossible now.

Edited May 30, 2016 by (PS4)I_AM_FIRED_UP

[MechaTails]

I agree OP, stop playing and give me all your stuff, you'll feel a lot better!

Edited May 30, 2016 by MechaTails

[Me.KayOh]

1 minute ago, (PS4)I_AM_FIRED_UP said:

I think they should have changed the enemies before the "nerfing" Raids are more impossible now. I did the nightmare one yesterday and it was hard but now with mirage and blessing got nerfed it is more impossible now.

honestly it makes me sad that warframe abilities are the first to get chopped. but its understandable that their is no equilibrium to be had and the status quo is not meant to be to our advantage, but to the enemies, regardless of whatever the developer say (such as devs saying that they want us to feel empowered and etc.)

in no MMORPG will the status quo be in favour of the player. it is always the enemy.

but if i were a tenno i'd be depressed about it...wait a minute...

[(PSN)I_AM_FIRED_UP]

3 minutes ago, kalikilic said:

honestly it makes me sad that warframe abilities are the first to get chopped. but its understandable that their is no equilibrium to be had and the status quo is not meant to be to our advantage, but to the enemies, regardless of whatever the developer say (such as devs saying that they want us to feel empowered and etc.)

in no MMORPG will the status quo be in favour of the player. it is always the enemy.

but if i were a tenno i'd be depressed about it...wait a minute...

Well enemies are suppossed to be a challenge but its our job as tennos to overcome that, still if it becomes so impossible that it makes me cry its not fun. I started playing this game to be op ninja that is boss XD. Stil gonna do 40 /60 min of t4 survival, 40 waves of t4 def etc. Honestly players like me just look for ways to make it easy.

Edited May 30, 2016 by (PS4)I_AM_FIRED_UP

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

I don't speak about money I speak about effort. Am I overpowered? Perhaps - but I did a lot for it. I spend more than thousand hours in the game. I joined  raids to get Arcanes, I grinded every Warframe ( or spend money for it), I formad the Warframes up go 7 times and now such a massive nerf of some of my favorite Warframes. 

Why should I do this in the future when every effort (and money)could be destroyed in seconds?

Warframe is an extreme grind game. DE, when you destroy the motivation for grinding, the motivation to be better than the others or the enemies than you destroy the game.

 

 

I certainly understand your position, it is annoying to get things you have invested time into nerfed or reworked until they are not what you originally liked. I personally, don't like the reworks and nerfs that were handed out and think that Enemy scaling should have been addressed first; but I still think Warframe still has room to improve from this and other similar paths that have been taken in the past. While it might be a good idea to think about other games, at least to prevent burn out; I still think Warframe has what it takes to be fun. It might be a good idea though to look forward to the next big update to see whether it improves for you though or whether its best to cut back in your time invested in the game,

[Me.KayOh]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)I_AM_FIRED_UP said:

Well enemies are suppossed to be a challenge but its our job as tennos to overcome that, still if it becomes so impossible that it makes me cry its not fun. I started playing this game to be op ninja that is boss XD. Stil gonna do 40 /60 min of t4 survival, 40 waves of t4 def etc. Honestly players like me just look for ways to make it easy.

i think its our job to overcome it as we are. anyway i'm tired of this weekend and the forums. later.

[(PSN)I_AM_FIRED_UP]

Just now, kalikilic said:

i think its our job to overcome it as we are. anyway i'm tired of this weekend and the forums. later.

k

[WARLOCKE]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

I don't speak about money I speak about effort. Am I overpowered? Perhaps - but I did a lot for it. I spend more than thousand hours in the game. I joined  raids to get Arcanes, I grinded every Warframe ( or spend money for it), I formad the Warframes up go 7 times and now such a massive nerf of some of my favorite Warframes. 

Why should I do this in the future when every effort (and money)could be destroyed in seconds?

Warframe is an extreme grind game. DE, when you destroy the motivation for grinding, the motivation to be better than the others or the enemies than you destroy the game.

 

 

Ive spent 3k hours ingame. Over a thousand dollars on plat and prime access. I have every warframe and every mod (except that mod who shall not be named). I did none of this to be overpowered. I did this because I enjoy the game. Perhaps it is you, who are playing for the wrong reasons. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by WARLOCKE

[Xekrin]

Holy gods, you people are impatient as all hell.  Seriously.  The update was Friday, it is now Sunday.  Chances are quite good at some point next week there will be revisions, but 2 days with your favorite frame slightly gimped and all hell breaks loose.  Must find another game!  This game is obviously dead after one update followed by a weekend!  Whatever shall we do?!?!

I know. I'll make yet another (lets reach 500 before monday!) thread about how the nerfs ruined MY life and how MY gaming experience is pointless!  That'll bring changes asap!  What? An hour later and nothing has changed?  May as well make an additional 30 or 40 threads about the exact same thing!

If you need a break, take it, give DE at least something of a half way decent chance to review the feedback already given IN THE OFFICIAL FEEDBACK THREAD before throwing everything out the window.

Or don't, honestly, if you are this impatient, an ever evolving game is probably not for you.  Try duck hunt, I hear its been the same for quite a while now.

[Anshii]

Maybe it is just me, but I do not feel any of these nerfs to the frames that got changed. I did a 60 minute T3 Survival on my mag prime and had very few issues. I have played trinity and I was still able to keep people alive and full energy. I honestly do not get why suddenly something changed and instead of looking at the changes and finding the best way to use them people just complain. That might just be it. Instead of adapting to what comes along they just get mad because now they have to rethink all the work they did before. So far from my experiences from the Saryn change up to these current changes have been for the good. Saryn still wipes out entire rooms, and now Mag can as well regardless of what faction they are. Just learn to adapt to the changes that come.

[Lost_Cartographer]

52 minutes ago, kalikilic said:

honestly it makes me sad that warframe abilities are the first to get chopped. but its understandable that their is no equilibrium to be had and the status quo is not meant to be to our advantage, but to the enemies, regardless of whatever the developer say (such as devs saying that they want us to feel empowered and etc.)

in no MMORPG will the status quo be in favour of the player. it is always the enemy.

but if i were a tenno i'd be depressed about it...wait a minute...

If 99% of the game were built around TIV endless void, this comment would ring true, but it instead only rings as 99% the opposite.

We DOMINATE everything on the star chart.  Effortlessly.  We don't even need to bust out our powers to do it.

People need to stop acting like wave 50+/minute 60 of a high tier endless missions is the only gameplay this game has, and if suddenly our Warframe's are less capable of handling that level of "content" the game is broken and the devs have it in for us, "why play?" and etc.

Hate to break it to you, but endless modes, by the very exploitation of the infinite scaling mechanic, are meant to make us our enemies b***h.  Yes, YOU'RE MEANT TO LOSE for going too long.  The nerfs just make that actually happen at some point now.

Seriously, if losing the cheese has ended your enjoyment of the game, that's a pity.  DE wants us to play, not macro.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Littleman88

[YasaiTsume]

To be fair I have never seen a game with :

- 99% Damage reduction which is maintainable,

- full on Godmode with no limit,

- 360 degree Aimbot,

- Invulnerbility mass murder,

- and map wide lockdown besides Warframe. 

 

In the player's defense, I have to say the Enemy scaling in Warframe is abit too much. 

 

Either way, Warframe felt like an Arms race between Player and Enemies for awhile now.

DE is now taking away our tools a little at a time, they had better make the enemies more managable or there will be hell to pay. 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Holy gods, you people are impatient as all hell.  Seriously.  The update was Friday, it is now Sunday.  Chances are quite good at some point next week there will be revisions, but 2 days with your favorite frame slightly gimped and all hell breaks loose.  Must find another game!  This game is obviously dead after one update followed by a weekend!  Whatever shall we do?!?!

It's called conditioning and years of it.

When devs turn a deaf ear to hundreds to thousands of posts that the game was so screwed up millions flat out left it. Real ID; no flight after spending $25 a pop for a mount to fly???

When devs ban people for simply disagreeing with changes outright (I don't post any differently here than at the Blizzard forums or any game forum, but PERMABAN is called because I don't praise the throne -- and my gosh -- I called ADHD gaming bad [used any excuse to simply control the message]). Then learn later what really is happening, trying to "control the message" even to the point of TROLLING themselves.......

When many get banned outright for disagreeing with decisions that kill games (I'm not talking about preferences, the big picture, and what the everyday Joe is saying, not the 10%. The Average Joe doesn't usually get involved because gamers generally "don't care", but when the trenches are lit up in anger, HELLO??? Ignore that at your peril, but damn if people pay those prices and told to simply accept it! Telling folks to "L2P" or they're your their "B*tch", backfires to anger most of the hornet's nest, hardcore to casual).

Gamers are the way they are from experience. Now some folks are outright off-the-wall and too extreme, but when controlling the message is banning thousands of players to force an opinion... "Houston, we have a problem".

I don't see the DE's reworks as bad as the EvE; Diablo and WoW dramas (that cost them plenty), as the game is beta and they're still tweaking. Upset, sure, but it's not at THAT level when devs attack you itself!

It's a two-way street. Give feedback and take the grist of that feedback and make a good compromise. NOT ban thousands to push through changes that kill games!

[kajiss1]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

Ive spent 3k hours ingame. Over a thousand dollars on plat and prime access. I have every warframe and every mod (except that mod who shall not be named). I did none of this to be overpowered. I did this because I enjoy the game. Perhaps it is you, who are playing for the wrong reasons. 

same can be say, i play to have fun being a demi-god ninja, so my view is wrong ? so the way i feel fun is wrong ?. with this i`m just saying that fun is subjective.

out of that yeah i do think balance is necessary in were ? in the nerf example: Valkir, ok histeria being the i`m going afk bottom got nerf, fair but, Hey! way not give more range to her 3, and make so it can`t be block with the enemy animations?, 1 make it so can pull 6 guys.  2 make a aura that last for the duration of the power that slow enemies down. 

Nop just nerf it and we are good, 

and ppl saying that they doing this because they will go and touch the enemies,  hey the are touching the enemies because the backlash. 

Side note: English is not my native, hope my idea was clear. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by kajiss1
*shrug*

[Sonos]

It's because DE is playing Overwatch too.

[Vulpei]

5 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

I personally believed that we won't need a godmode and hard CC just to be able to normally play raids - because you know, that is actually should've been balanced and redone literally yesterday already. But since some **** decided to first nerf and nuke sht to the ground and MAYBE way, way later - at the very least a month from then nerf some enemies to even begin to match our current warframes' level?...

Like literally, idiocy at it's finest. Made enemies even more OP than they already were and let us deal with it for at the very least a month.  And 7 formas for Excalibur that no one will give back to me - never forgive, never forget. Removed all kind of motivation to ever bother with the formas.

Either frames or enemies had to be nerfed first so that DE had at least a little bit to go on of how to actually start balancing, it also allows us time to adjust.  Unless you'd prefer they just completely changed the game in a day because that idea never goes wrong.

[Blaqsailens]

I feel like the Proxy Retribution missions are what DE needs to go towards. The Hyena NGs are some of the most fun enemies to play against so far in my opinion. I love that you have to watch for their fire attack and get out of their line of fire. I feel like enemies with more telegraphed attacks would be a step toward making the game actually fun to play, rather than only playing to grind toward the next frame/weapon.

[-Temp0-]

8 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Holy gods, you people are impatient as all hell.  Seriously.  The update was Friday, it is now Sunday.  Chances are quite good at some point next week there will be revisions, but 2 days with your favorite frame slightly gimped and all hell breaks loose.  Must find another game!  This game is obviously dead after one update followed by a weekend! 

This game was going to a hellhole long before this dreadful update - last 6 months or so it just degraded and degraded until it hit the new low, this is literally the last straw. I spent 2x time yesterday doing NM LoR, people were dying left and right and also spent like 3x time just to start normal LoR, spend energy restores and see either host ragequit or all other people dropping due to the bs that puzzles had become now.

There was nothing left to majority of people to do at this point but raids and DE managed to fc even that up. So no wonder.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

You have to learn to accept that you play an ever changing game that tries to constantly improve player experience.  Sure some nerfs may suck now.  But if DE actually addresses enemy scaling and the awful loot tables these changes will be for the better.  Currently you only need insane power because the game forces you into situations where it's your only realistic option.

 

People cheese endless because they want better things.  Better things are locked behind endlessly scaling enemies.  So in turn anything that is really good at CC will be top tier since CC abilities scale as much as endless enemies do.  Your raidial disarm will always be good versus a level 1 baddie or a level 1000 baddie.  If we look at the normal star chart with normal mods/frames/weapons things are balanced and fun.  End game should be this way as well.  And it seems like DE is trying to go that way.

 

If they nerf my valkyr hard of course i'll be upset.  But as long as she's still useful and end game viable it won't be as bad.