Update 18.13 Passives Feedback

[TheMortemShadow]

I'm still slightly upset about how a new update has come where they listened to some of our feedback, but still DE hasn't listened to any of our feedback on the passives and have yet to change them in the newly added hotfix. Maybe they are listening and they are still working on changing it, but it would be nice if one of them could at least post that they have changes for some of the passives that our feedback has determined as negative. 

[Cornelius.EE]

Most of this has already been voiced by other Nyx players, but another voice does not hurt.

First, the obvious: Giving Nyx Disarm overlaps with Loki's signature skill. Passives are a great opportunity to give frames more flavor and uniqueness in addition to utility. Making one frame more similar to another does not cut it.

Now, utility and synergy with abilites:

Mind Control: Disarm is bad if one wants to mind-control a target repeatedly. If I don't want to re-control the target, I usually make sure it's dead when the duration expires, so Disarm is useless in this scenario too. As TheMortemShadow also pointed out earlier in this thread, Disarm is counter-productive when one uses Chaos or Absorb to temporarily disable enemies before using Mind Control.

Psychic Bolts: I don't use Psychic Bolts often, so I'm less sure about how it's affected. If used with the the stun augment, Disarm is irrelevant as affected targets would probably be dead anyway by the end of the 10s duration.

Chaos: While it's true that enemy defensive stats scale much faster than damage output, heavy units can still deal noticeable damage to light units. More importantly, status effects from enemy weapons (e.g. Ogris on bombards) contribute to CC. Disarm increases safety for the player and the team while decreasing the pandemonium. This would make it either slightly useful or unhelpful and less fun, depending on player preference, if it didn't mesh poorly with Mind Control in the first place. Finally, as has been noted by many, Disarm makes Chaos and Irradiating Disarm practically the same ability with different stats (longer range and duration, lower energy cost, lower chance to disarm). This is just displeasing aesthetically. If the developers would like to buff Nyx in comparison with Loki without making them more similar to one another, one way to do it would be to improve Nyx's own augment, Chaos Sphere (perhaps by locking the sphere radius to a fraction of Chaos' radius for the full duration of the ability, or some other way).

Absorb: Disarm increases player safety when Absorb is used as a panic button, but again, results in poor synergy with Mind Control.

Some good suggestions for a replacement passive have already been put forward by the community. I particularly like the idea of making enemies that target Nyx lose accuracy or have a chance to be staggered. If this is too OP, the effect could be limited to enemies that attack her from the front. Such a passive would stay true to her theme and be useful at the same time. If there are compelling arguments against these suggestions, there are plenty of other ideas to explore that would be better than her present ability in terms of both utility and aesthetics. I look forward to something interesting being implemented soon.

[(PSN)Zashukitsune]

One opinion I haven't seen voiced but I'm sure is out there is, what was the thinking behind Loki having massive wall latch?  Amongst gameplay reasons, it adds nothing to the character that does better to not sit still at all, but to keep moving and avoid enemies entirely, not just wait on them.

Also, to me,the only time I've ever had reason to wall latch was on moon missions for the wall boosts, but more specifically the moon spy puzzles....a mission type and tileset almost exclusively owned by Loki already...kinda makes me feel like he's just being further pushed towards being the sole suggested frame for such missions.

I know passives aren't supposed to massively change gameplay, but c'mon.  Loki could have had so many other passives, naturally lowered accuracy for enemies, an auto decoy that deploys for just a second or two whenever he dodges, things like that....and all he got was something to make the missions he can basically cheese without a thought even cheesier...not even tasty cheese at that.

[-Varrgas-]

On 01/06/2016 at 5:00 AM, cxll said:

Ho yes sorry ...

There is "sometime" Kavat in derelict ... amazing ... and still usless.

If that was all "animals" even from other faction like the Grineer Drekar etc, maybe not usless, but actualy, who care ? that like if Oberon have no passive.

[EnderDDT]

On 5/30/2016 at 3:35 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey Tenno! 

We'll be using this thread to discuss the Passives released in Update 18.13: 

Please keep the discussion civil and your feedback constructive. 

Thanks guys!

My thoughts on the passives. 

 

•    Ash: Bleed Procs dealt by Ash from any source are 25% deadlier and last 50% longer.

This adds about 2/3 damage (62.5%) bonus damage to his bleed procs, including his #1 and #4 abilitys. Seems kinda strong, especially considering that each shuriken deals a base of 1225 bleed damage directly to hp, the passive brings it up to almost 2000 with no strength mods. His #4 deals 4900 bleed damage to each target at base, increased to about 7960 finisher damage. Of course these are bleed damage over time, not instant damage, but is worth watching to be sure it doesn't get out of hand.

•    Banshee: All weapons are treated as silent.

A good passive that works well with her other abilities. Can be deceptively powerful or completely ignored, depending on how it is used.

•    Ember: Receiving a Heat Status effect will regenerate energy for the duration of the Status effect (10 energy per second) and increase Power Strength by 35%.

I don't want to be the person constantly complaining about having to keep reviving the Ember player who keeps reducing their survivability so that they can have that passive's effects. Ember just isn't designed to be able to intentionally take damage.

•    Hydroid: Every Melee Ground-Slam has a 50% chance to lure a Tentacle that will last 15 seconds. 

A fun passive to use. I can understand where others are coming from asking for some changes, but really it is fine as is. I've been having fun using fist weapons with him (and taking advantage of the glitch where they summon stuff without ground pounds) and it is always funny when the Kraken's baby decides to show up.

•    Limbo: Holster Speed and Reload Speed is 50% faster while in the Rift, and movement speed increases by 10% while in the Rift.

Limbo can't shoot out of the rift and has plenty of time to reload or change weapons before he pulls an enemy into the rift, so I don't see the real benefits. Then again, it doesn't hurt him any and I'm not a Limbo player, so I'll leave the in depth analysis to someone else.

•    Loki: 10x Wall-Cling duration!

I can't remember the last time I wall clung in a regular mission. I doubt others use that ability much either.

•    Mag: Vacuum effect on every Bullet Jump.

No clue how well or badly it works. I don't play mag. Interesting concept if nothing else.

•    Nekros: Enemy death within 10 meters of Nekros regenerates a 5 Health.

The range needs increased. 5hp per enemy isn't much, but being nearly in melee range to get the effects is too dangerous for a squishy. Otherwise a very nice passive with a very good feel for the character.

•    Nova: When Nova is knocked down, she will knock down enemies in a 6 meter Radius + deal damage.

No clue how useful this is. On paper it seems to be a good defensive ability, but how often do non-infested knock you down from so close? I'll stay open minded about this till I know more.

•    Nyx: Enemies affected by any of Nyx's powers have a chance to lay down their weapon ( become disarmed ).

I don't like Nyx in the first place, so I'm the wrong person to talk about her abilities.

•    Oberon: All wildlife (neutral or enemy faction) within a 10 meter range of Oberon will become allies and fight for Oberon for 20 seconds.

Most neutral wildlife attacks enemy units already (Kubros, Skates, Kvats). And 20 second duration on a Grineer only turning ability is kinda "meh". It will help you kill the summoners but not much else, and you'll still have to kill the creatures anyway.

•    Trinity: Revive fallen allies faster from further away.

Good ability, good synergy, helpful but not in any way broken. Two thumbs up.

•    Vauban: Other Warframes within 20 meters give you 25% bonus armour.

So, up to 75 bonus armor? Is this base armor or after mods? Dubious usefulness, but I'll let the dedicated Vauban players speak up (I'm not one).

•    Volt: Physical ground-travel distance between attacks causes bonus Electrical damage on next attack.

It would be nice if it didn't make you feel locked to the ground to get the relatively small bonus. Otherwise, fairly good.

 

[MacabreHaze]

The tool tips don't match the patch notes. 

Loki for example says you can wall cling indefinitely. Patch notes x10 to cling. Since I've fallen off the wall, the patch notes are more correct, but it is a pretty long time. Though I will have to say that Its actually pretty hard to wall cling sometimes. Some walls do not let you cling to them. Other walls act like you fell down a pit when you scale them. 

 

[CY13ERPUNK]

ok so i get it right? its loki, he's all that, so we gotta troll the classic troll who's ruined many a poor devs wknd by making them re-code his abilities to not be able to re-arrange the defense maps or to just completely bypass some designed system/mechanic

but now that we've all had a good laugh about it, lets get real

10x long wall-latch is arguably the worst passive in the game atm even comparing it to other more vocal haters like oberon's [at least oberon's does SOMETHING functional in combat]

so how can we still give loki something in-theme with that 'loki' flavor? lets discuss a few parameters :

does it still need to revolve around parkour/wall-latch? well how about making loki go invis while he is wall-latched? pretty elegant solution imho {not good enough? how about also give loki +10-20% evasion while wall-latched}

[somewhat semi-related sidenote : loki and other frames should be able to use their abilities and throw glaive-type melee from wall-latches or ziplines, relating to loki specifically, IF this functionality was added into the game, his passive would not be quite as awful as it currently is ; also related is the AWFUL camera while wall-latched and how without being invis your frame basically blocks your view from being able to effectively aim anything]

could we ditch the wall-latch thing completely and still be 'loki' enough? how about this : allow loki to 'cheat death', possibly a 10-20% base chance to spawn a nearby decoy and swap teleport with it upon receiving lethal dmg [ie if hes dies while being surrounded, the decoy would now be surrounded and he would be outside the fray]; or make it scale with power strength mods for a higher % chance ; or make it start every mission at 1% and increase 1% every minute upto 99%, which in that case it would need to be capped to not be able to happen more than once every 10 minutes [the 'revived' post-cheat-death loki would spawn with 50% hp/shld/nrg btw, so you would be 'saved' but not at full capacity]

could it just be stupid simple and fairly 'plain'? how about give loki a base 10% evasion to all ranged dmg and 20% evasion to all melee dmg {color/fluff being that loki is deceptively hard to pin down, whether with bullets or blades} (if this sounds powerful, of course the #'s could be tweaked, but i think the melee dodge should be 2x the ranged, and remember that loki has the lowest EHP ingame, so not getting hit is his only method of survival)

heck even the name of loki's passive is lackluster... 'wall grapple'... srsly? =/ what's Excal's passive called? 'Swordsmanship' now there's a good name, how about Mirage? Jester's Proficiency ; Inaros? Undying, ... and the list goes on

take my above few examples - the invis wall-latch : Obfuscator

 - the death-cheat decoy swap : Slippery Deceiver

 - the simple dodge % : Evasive 

voila, that wasnt so hard =] 

Edited June 3, 2016 by CY13ERPUNK

[Derpesque]

I want to throw my voice onto the pile for one frame's passive . . .

Ember: Encouraging the player to take damage is by default bad design unless the entire kit is built around it with defensive and healing abilities to balance out. Ember is none of that and with the inconsistency and strength of fire sources on the enemy and environment, getting yourself into this bad deal in the first place is hard to do and can be harder to survive at higher levels. Since everyone else has thrown in their ideas for Ember passives I'll just throw out some general advice for what would make us happy for a reworked passive.

• Let us have fun with fire. Creating an interesting interaction with fire procs inflicted on the enemy would make Ember far more engaging in combat.
• If energy regeneration does still feature into the new version of this passive, allow that energy regeneration to function normally when World on Fire is active. It's the highlight ability and Ember players don't like to have to turn it off unnecessarily to benefit from other mechanics.
• Keep Ember's whole kit in mind. For example: an ability that says "up to 25% armor for X seconds after inflicting a fire proc" would not fit Ember, as for such fragile frames they don't want to be taking enough damage to actually notice the benefits, and with their health/shield split will want to avoid taking health damage in the first place. Ember is about damage and crowd control, and the reworked passive should support one of those two aspects.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Derpesque

[SquireAngel]

Oberon and vauban seem like odd choices. Oberon simply needs some tweaking, having access to 'wildlife' for each enemy type would easily silence most legit claims against it, seeing as most wildlife, outside of kavat, suck and appear on 3 tilesets.

 

Vauban's, however, I feel like should be scrapped. Even on booben prime, the armor is a joke, and that's if all team mates are near you. It doesn't fit the theme of his frame, it's not a great addition, and it doesn't really do anything. Everything else fits fairly well, just really confused in booben.

[ziyax]

On 5/31/2016 at 9:52 PM, LeifKlover said:

You mean those things that nearly everyone has billions of? That'd be more of a joke.

Then think of something that is unique  practical and fits in the space pirate  theme.  Not everyone has credits though usually new players starve and mastery 10 or above have "billions" it's always been a feast or famine thing. 

[Sunfaiz]

No frame should have to take damage to active a passive. Looking at Ember.

 

Give Vauban's passive to frost  and give Vauban something like slow Ammo regen.

 

Change oberon and Nyx. IDK who said this was a good idea but they need to go !

 

Ember: 

 

Oberon: All weapons have a chance to proc radiation. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Sunfaiz
Just went through all the comments and it's obvious that ember and oberon have the worst passives so I'll try give some recommendations.

[MacabreHaze]

12 hours ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

ok so i get it right? its loki, he's all that, so we gotta troll the classic troll who's ruined many a poor devs wknd by making them re-code his abilities to not be able to re-arrange the defense maps or to just completely bypass some designed system/mechanic

but now that we've all had a good laugh about it, lets get real

10x long wall-latch is arguably the worst passive in the game atm even comparing it to other more vocal haters like oberon's [at least oberon's does SOMETHING functional in combat]

so how can we still give loki something in-theme with that 'loki' flavor? lets discuss a few parameters :

does it still need to revolve around parkour/wall-latch? well how about making loki go invis while he is wall-latched? pretty elegant solution imho {not good enough? how about also give loki +10-20% evasion while wall-latched}

 

I'm kinda a bit more on the other side. I like the wall-grapple thing, just it does need a little more. Something along the lines of a sort of Aggro down effect, where enemies are less likely to notice a wall grappling loki. 

Also, Wall grappling needs to be made easier.. There is a lot of places you just cannot wall grapple, even though it looks like you should be able to. 

As for the camera, I've never had a problem with it. then again, I use Sniper rifles and bows. So that could help. 

[Wolfnrun]

Will there be another update? on the Passives, reworks and all??? 

[OzoneSlayer]

Thing is, even if vaubans passive granted +100% armor per ally it still wouldn't be overpowered

 

EVEN IF YOU STOOD TOGETHER FOR SOME STRANGE REASON you'd still only have 200 armor

Edited June 4, 2016 by OzoneSlayer

[KittyDarkling]

5 minutes ago, OzoneSlayer said:

Thing is, even if vaubans passive granted +100% armor per ally it still wouldn't be overpowered

yeah, it's never really a good idea to encourage us to stand close together and not move around to much (death sentence any decently high leveled mission)

Which to be fair passives are very raw, it's possible the Devs weren't sure what to balance them against. The community seams to have a clear feeling that they should scale into late game. which Vauban's passive does not.

[Magnulast]

Oberon's passive needs to allow us to have sharks by our side.

I hope it's changed so that some passives transfers onto archwing.

[OzoneSlayer]

9 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

Oberon's passive needs to allow us to have sharks by our side.

I hope it's changed so that some passives transfers onto archwing.

Yeah its a shame that only a few work in Archwing.

[Aquasurge]

11 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

Oberon's passive needs to allow us to have sharks by our side.

I hope it's changed so that some passives transfers onto archwing.

that should be hydroid's.

 

[Oates_]

Hydroid's passive could be improved by leaving the 50% chance to spawn as it is, but adding a 100% chance to spawn if you are channeling while doing the ground attack. A little energy cost to offset the RNG.

[Epsik-kun]

Can we have Excal's passive buffed so it would have at least some effect? 10% to everything would be nice, if these 10% were multiplicative, and they are not.

[Callosus]

Hey off topic, i don't ever touch forums or post much but something i feel would be a good addition to the game, parkour 2.0 is cool an all with no stamina and the wall skip, you should bring back the wall run for when you hold jump on a wall, cause when you tap it you skip anyway, running on a wall makes shooting easier and changing direction, youll get the extra moment to decide which way you wanna go if you decide to skip after. imo the wall skip gets annoying when tryna switch from a side run to an up run if the cameras not spot on. plus the the wall run gave it more of a ninja feel, itd be a small change but a big difference in game play you should do it. parkour 2.1 DrowsyDrifter idea :)

[Vastia]

Oberon's passive i one of the worst, i don't think it should stay like that either, DE is doing nothing to improve Oberon, and this passive is another hard hit for this warframe, it's too situational, Oberon deserves more love (i'm not only talking about passive)

[Xekrin]

Pertaining to Oberon's passive I don't think I could say anything that hasn't already been said, but that aside I was rather disappointed when I first tried it.  Assuming for a minute there were a multitude of wild animals on every planet and the passive itself was somehow fine.  

What disappointed me was when I went to earth on my semi-weekly egg hunt, there was nothing at all special about when the kubrows suddenly became friendly to me.  No special glow (in oberon's energy perhaps), no UI counter to show how many friendlies I now have.  They fought the grineer nearby sure, and I think they kind of followed me a little bit but they mostly stayed where they were when I found them.  

It didn't really feel special.  It was almost identical to nyx casting chaos but only hitting animals.  Hurray, they're on my team.  Of course now I can't get kubrow mods from them (sure I can use another frame to slaughter the mutts), they still maintain their original AI, namely collecting stuff for a den I already destroyed.  Here is a somewhat amusing example I posted.

I was expecting and hoping for something more obvious that they are my allies now beyond a blue dot on my mini map.  That and the idea that I go to earth to search for dens to destroy and now they all just mindlessly follow me and kill my enemies was so sad it was amusing, or so amusing it was sad, not sure which.

Aside from having a (admittedly possibly decent) boost in extra damage against my targets, they provide no benefit.  If (and when) more wildlife appears in the future, and should they also drop mods, and were I in a squad.  I would literally have to vacate the area for my team to kill our animal allies just to obtain what they have to offer.

Now if they treated me as their new den (mother) and brought me the stuff they carried, or even collected loot for me, that would almost make it interesting.  Leading me to a secret cache of rare containers would be pretty nifty too! Or just something that made bringing Oberon into the mix for this specific purpose other than to make them allies one moment and as soon as I leave the room the pack of feral kavats rip into my friends because they stopped thinking of them as a threat.

Also, introducing such a passive into our currently wildlife barren universe not great planning yada yada etc all said before.  I really do like the concept, but as an integral part of a frame's persona, it definitely requires more fleshing out.  And to flesh this out will require numerous more wildlife that we don't even have yet (unless, hey, perhaps they are already well into it?). that takes quite a long time.

Until then, he could use a simpler yet thematic passive that is actually useful to this poor underused frame now.

[Epsik-kun]

I have to say, those 3 extra centimeters on Trin's revive range has changed the world.

Meanwhile, Ash gets his AoE damage output and late-game potential boosted out of nowhere, because he had none.

[MacabreHaze]

You know.. Those who say that they never use wall latch must never really do Moon Spy Missions. I ended up having to wall latch like crazy  for one of the puzzles there.