Rework Ember

[RealPandemonium]

Increase WoF's cost to its former levels and give an incentive to weigh keeping it on vs turning it off.  The Ember bandwagon started when they lowered the energy cost to inconsequential levels for no reason.  

[Hypernaut1]

34 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Increase WoF's cost to its former levels and give an incentive to weigh keeping it on vs turning it off.  The Ember bandwagon started when they lowered the energy cost to inconsequential levels for no reason.  

i would agree with this if it was doing Exalted blade levels of damage, but its not. It quickly becomes more of a CC tool than anything as enemies scale.

While a well modded Ember can still get some kills from WoF alone, all it really does is soften enemies up. Teammates should still be able to kill affected enemies well before WoF kills them.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[RealPandemonium]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

i would agree with this if it was doing Exalted blade levels of damage, but its not. It quickly becomes more of a CC tool than anything as enemies scale.

While a well modded Ember can still get some kills from WoF alone, all it really does is soften enemies up. Teammates should still be able to kill affected enemies.

WoF tears through level 100 enemies as long as armor and damage reduction auras aren't present.  5k damage per tick is plenty for Sortie-level enemies.  The passive CC application puts WoF over the top when combined with this level of damage.  

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

37 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

WoF tears through level 100 enemies as long as armor and damage reduction auras aren't present.  5k damage per tick is plenty for Sortie-level enemies.  The passive CC application puts WoF over the top when combined with this level of damage.  

No.

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

No.

Post your build for inspection?  Are you not getting 5k ticks, or?  If you're going to post then at least try to participate in the discussion.  The Feedback forum is not meant as a place of emotional outlet.  

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

WoF tears through level 100 enemies as long as armor and damage reduction auras aren't present.  5k damage per tick is plenty for Sortie-level enemies.  The passive CC application puts WoF over the top when combined with this level of damage.  

When does this ever happen? When do you ever find enemies without armor and damage reduction auras? When? You are talking about the corpus aren't you? You have really got to be something special to be taking Ember to Corpus missions, of all places. Please tell me when enemies don't have these things (nothing below level 30 should be acceptable as an answer), I would love to play the warframe you are playing (literally, in all seriousness, unless you are talking about lower levels).

Edited June 7, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Corrosive projection is a cop out

[Nyxxz]

No, they should clearly make Ember like Trin used to be.

WoF deals 99999.9% more damage (so it's sort of equal to Trin's 99.9% damage reduction) but you need to damage yourself to 2 hp first for it to work! scaling and challenging gameplay is a MUST for this to be balanced and FUN!

Also WoF should affect the entire map, just like Trin used to.

Actually. It should just affect the entire planet Ember is on, and if there are any other Embers currently doing missions on that planet they can also hit targets on your map. 

Without range mods ofcourse, I don't have room for that crap on my frame. 

Ty for reading my post DE! :)

Edited June 7, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed inflammatory comment.

[(PSN)JaviOnTheRocks]

The root of problems with Ember is not as much Ember as missions that become so tedious that foster going through them as fast as possible.

That said, considering that Ember can be both annoying on low levels and useless on high ones, maybe WoF could be modified to work as AoE damage adjusted (loosely) by net effect rather than a capped low(ish) damage at low energy cost.

WoF duration is based on your energy pool and eficiency, which means you can manage to keep it up for a very long time regardless of whether you kill everything or absolutely nothing. It could instead be limited to a number of consumed enemies (ie. killed by WoF) per activation (be it a hard limit or energy cost spikes with each kill) where a higher power strength would kill enemies faster and make WoF more useful on higher levels but running out faster... or you could use a lower power strength to provide constant (albeit lower) damage for a longer time to enemies, which might not outright kill them but weaken them to help the team.

I just came up with that so it's probably not very well thought of, but the general idea would be making WoF more effective (and therefore making Ember more viable on higher level content) with the tradeoff of losing duration and usually not being able to keep WoF running for the whole mission, and also providing a choice between WoF being a once in a while nuke or a constant but weaker drill on enemies' life (plus procs).

The effect of a high power strength build would be somewhat similar to Frost's Avalanche, only that you could cast it beforehand and keep it running for a bit longer depending on the number of affected enemies. A low strength build on the other hand would be similar to the current WoF only that you could potentially keep it on virtually forever as long as it's weak enough to damage and proc enemies but not kill them (relying on teamwork or your weapons for that).

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

Let's be honest, the point of exterminates is to kill everything. Nothing more than that, it's fairly boring, even worse, not very rewarding (besides alerts&invasions-more reason to rush!). Not challenging whether you're using World on Fire or bows. One is just much more time efficient. Nerfing World on Fire wouldn't change anything for you. Play solo or with friends who want to spend unnecessary amounts of time in a mission for minuscule rewards.

Edited June 7, 2016 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[Tsukinoki]

8 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Post your build for inspection?  Are you not getting 5k ticks, or?  If you're going to post then at least try to participate in the discussion.  The Feedback forum is not meant as a place of emotional outlet.  

Prove that you're getting 5K damage per tick of WoF against level 100 units.  Unless you mean 6 seconds being a single tick which isn't true at all.

The absolute highest damage you can get in a single explosion is 1196 damage.
Then it will tick for 598 damage 7 times over six seconds which isn't good at all.  Especially at higher levels where enemies have thousands upon thousands of health meaning that sure you can deal 5K damage fore a full proc...which again is over six seconds.

No other ultimate in the game requires waiting 6+ seconds for 5K damage to tick over for 5 targets at a time, randomly selected enemies mind you meaning that you can't aim at and that you can't guarantee will hit the enemies that you are hitting with accelerant and could very easily just miss those enemies entirely for a long period of time (which doing the math, even with absolutely maximum power strength and constantly casting Accelerant which will burn through your energy so fast you won't be able to keep WoF up you still can't hit 5K damage per burn tick, at most hitting around 4K or so).

When you take into consideration that WoF takes six seconds per target to deal its full damage, that it only hits 5 enemies at a time, and that you can't control what enemies it hits it pretty much requires the high damage and CC through its augment to be useful in any way.

If you lower the damage then whats the point of running it?  It will take even longer to kill enemies and you still can't prioritize the heavier target or the targets that have the accelerant debuff.

Maybe if WoF hit more than five enemies at most(and its possible to hit only 2 enemies for a full second of activation instead of the maximum of 5 depending on RNG and how it feels for that second and what enemies should be hit) at a time then I could see a need to change it.  But with all of its limitations it needs to be powerful to be of any use at all.

Further, please don't compare WoF to a perfect simulacrum setup which hapens maybe 2-3% of the time in real missions where the damage of WoF tanks to the point of barely tickling enemies.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I really dont get the point of threads like this one. It makes me feel like " Oh my neighbor has a faster car than mine, please DE nerf his car..." 

If anybody thinks something should be nerfed, it should be explained why, so other players can agree or not and maybe DE can analyze if the reasons are ok or not. 

Depending on the level of the mission you can steal all the kills with a LOT of other options, a divine spear Nehza with max range and power can outkill a ember for instance but that doesn´t mean that Nehza with this build is OP or needs to be nerfed. 

[Lyravain]

Nerf Ember? Not another thread about 'someone else is killing everything before me'.

Nerf what on Ember? Her damage falls off real fast on anytthing beyond 20min in T3 Surv and beyond that, she's mostly CC.

In other words; try staying beyond level 40 and see how well she fares. Excellent CC, not so good damage.

I'm guessing next frame to be, ahem, 'reworked' will be Frost because his 4th deals AoE damage.

[Fi-le]

19 hours ago, Dante123pl said:

i really wonder how long it ill take for ppls to recover from saryn rework to press more buttons than just 4.

gentleman could you explain to me why I should stay 10 minutes to press 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 a million times when, in less then 2sec, I could take my weapon and  shoot a beautiful bullet in the head of my friendly enemy, which OF COURSE he will WAIT my turn (as in pokemon games)????? -__-

[Fi-le]

19 hours ago, Dante123pl said:

i really wonder how long it ill take for ppls to recover from saryn rework to press more buttons than just 4.

gentleman could you explain to me why I should stay 10 minutes to press 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 a million times when, in less then 2sec, I could take my weapon and  shoot a beautiful bullet in the head of my friendly enemy, which OF COURSE he will WAIT my turn (as in pokemon games)????? -__-

ps: sorry my internet crashed and post another one

Edited June 7, 2016 by Fi-le

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

DE please consider making a separate game mode for those who want everything to get nerfed and to have more "challenge". 

[TheScytale]

It's surprising to see how many people just rush posting their opinions/feelings without even reading the first post.

 

21 hours ago, Xennocide420 said:

They think we look at them with envy because they killed all the mobs ? Wrong. You're just a fun-killer worst than nullifiers.

I hope this ability is balanced and that future ones never allow for a magical switch that kills everything with zero effort on the user's part.

What is in that post that's not clear?

The situation has nothing to do with Ember players dealing more damage than the others. It's just that it's not fun to play a walking simulator. When I take non-endgame equipment into alerts or void exterminates, it's to use it. 

Changing a power does not necessarily mean lower the damage. Maybe make the power deactivate after you walk 50m away from the cast spot, and use up a good chunk of energy if you cross that limit or the power is deactivated within a given time window. All that while leaving intact the damage that everyone is so busy crying about.

And the "don't play public because you know the risks" argument is invalid here. If a part of a multiplayer game forces people to play solo, then it has to change. It has nothing to do with trolling or toxic behaviour that devs can't counter. 

[Fi-le]

7 minutes ago, TheScytale said:

The situation has nothing to do with Ember

the Title is "nerf Ember" so...

I have nothing more to say

[TheScytale]

4 minutes ago, Fi-le said:

the Title is "nerf Ember" so...

I have nothing more to say

Nice job choosing the words that would suit your argument. You'd be a great asset to modern media, if you're not there already.

 

 

13 minutes ago, TheScytale said:

The situation has nothing to do with Ember players dealing more damage than the others.

 

[RealPandemonium]

11 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

When does this ever happen? When do you ever find enemies without armor and damage reduction auras? When? You are talking about the corpus aren't you? You have really got to be something special to be taking Ember to Corpus missions, of all places. Please tell me when enemies don't have these things (nothing below level 30 should be acceptable as an answer), I would love to play the warframe you are playing (literally, in all seriousness, unless you are talking about lower levels).

For Infested you use Radiation procs to eliminate the effects of auras (except for the providing unit,) and Corpus takes full damage from Heat except for Proto Shields, which are only possessed by a couple of units.  For Grineer you use CP and/or Corrosive status weapons as an armor bandaid; the same holds true for most damage sources in the game.  

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Prove that you're getting 5K damage per tick of WoF against level 100 units.  Unless you mean 6 seconds being a single tick which isn't true at all.

The absolute highest damage you can get in a single explosion is 1196 damage.
Then it will tick for 598 damage 7 times over six seconds which isn't good at all.  Especially at higher levels where enemies have thousands upon thousands of health meaning that sure you can deal 5K damage fore a full proc...which again is over six seconds.

No other ultimate in the game requires waiting 6+ seconds for 5K damage to tick over for 5 targets at a time, randomly selected enemies mind you meaning that you can't aim at and that you can't guarantee will hit the enemies that you are hitting with accelerant and could very easily just miss those enemies entirely for a long period of time (which doing the math, even with absolutely maximum power strength and constantly casting Accelerant which will burn through your energy so fast you won't be able to keep WoF up you still can't hit 5K damage per burn tick, at most hitting around 4K or so).

When you take into consideration that WoF takes six seconds per target to deal its full damage, that it only hits 5 enemies at a time, and that you can't control what enemies it hits it pretty much requires the high damage and CC through its augment to be useful in any way.

If you lower the damage then whats the point of running it?  It will take even longer to kill enemies and you still can't prioritize the heavier target or the targets that have the accelerant debuff.

Maybe if WoF hit more than five enemies at most(and its possible to hit only 2 enemies for a full second of activation instead of the maximum of 5 depending on RNG and how it feels for that second and what enemies should be hit) at a time then I could see a need to change it.  But with all of its limitations it needs to be powerful to be of any use at all.

Further, please don't compare WoF to a perfect simulacrum setup which hapens maybe 2-3% of the time in real missions where the damage of WoF tanks to the point of barely tickling enemies.

227% Power Strength, 175% efficiency.

Accelerant bonus is 2.5 * 2.27 = 5.675x multiplier.

WoF damage is 400 * 2.27 * 5.675 = 5153 damage per tick.  

There will be an 80% chance to proc heat, which would add 2577 damage immediately and 15460 over the next 6 seconds.  

Damage is increased against light Infested and all Grineer (sans Regulators) and decreased against Proto Shields (Corpus Techs, Sniper Crewmen, Nullifiers, and Corpus bosses.)  

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

Can all of the well modded players who like their powerful things just accept that nerfers, and players that are only one more annoyance away from asking for nerfs, exist in all corners of the game and stop taking overly powerful gear to public games? It risks breeding hate against those weapons/frames. Powerful builds may be fun to show it off in public, but don't go overboard. You have no idea how annoying you may be to others. Maybe your awesomeness will inspire other players to get that gun or frame, but not everyone will have that perspective and that doesn't make them wrong or bad people. If you know you are going into a game to take most or all of the kills, just solo and spare us all an extra "nerf x" thread. 

 

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Bowjangelz said:

Can all of the well modded players who like their powerful things just accept that nerfers, and players that are only one more annoyance away from asking for nerfs, exist in all corners of the game and stop taking overly powerful gear to public games? It risks breeding hate against those weapons/frames. Powerful builds may be fun to show it off in public, but don't go overboard. You have no idea how annoying you may be to others. Maybe your awesomeness will inspire other players to get that gun or frame, but not everyone will have that perspective and that doesn't make them wrong or bad people. If you know you are going into a game to take most or all of the kills, just solo and spare us all an extra "nerf x" thread. 

 

lolwut

[Fi-le]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Bowjangelz said:

Can all of the well modded players who like their powerful things just accept that nerfers, and players that are only one more annoyance away from asking for nerfs, exist in all corners of the game and stop taking overly powerful gear to public games? It risks breeding hate against those weapons/frames. Powerful builds may be fun to show it off in public, but don't go overboard. You have no idea how annoying you may be to others. Maybe your awesomeness will inspire other players to get that gun or frame, but not everyone will have that perspective and that doesn't make them wrong or bad people. If you know you are going into a game to take most or all of the kills, just solo and spare us all an extra "nerf x" thread. 

 

 

46 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

lolwut

Fast! Take your Mk1-Braton/Mk1-Kunai and other Mk1 weapons, and do all the mission with those, even 2H Tier 4 missions....XD

my god the nosense

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

For Infested you use Radiation procs to eliminate the effects of auras (except for the providing unit,) and Corpus takes full damage from Heat except for Proto Shields, which are only possessed by a couple of units.  For Grineer you use CP and/or Corrosive status weapons as an armor bandaid; the same holds true for most damage sources in the game.  

227% Power Strength, 175% efficiency.

Accelerant bonus is 2.5 * 2.27 = 5.675x multiplier.

WoF damage is 400 * 2.27 * 5.675 = 5153 damage per tick.  

There will be an 80% chance to proc heat, which would add 2577 damage immediately and 15460 over the next 6 seconds.  

Damage is increased against light Infested and all Grineer (sans Regulators) and decreased against Proto Shields (Corpus Techs, Sniper Crewmen, Nullifiers, and Corpus bosses.)  

And I am sure you are well aware of everything im about to say...

You are gimpimg your self on pontential damage out put from weapons and abilities, in hopes that Wof and accelerant will make up for it. You sound like a hard core Ember fan to be honest.(the corpus also have the blitz eximus for damage reduction, but it rarely spawns...)

When you take Ember to Corpus missions, you need to get rid of their sheilds, or you are suffering negative damage. So you might roll with a magnetic and fire build on your weapon. And that's fine if that's what you want, or just wait longer for WOF to kill everything.

When you are fighting against infested, the most reliable way to spread that much radiation is an Aoe weapon, but you are effectively doing less damage with that weapon...again...

Corrosive projection...ok, I won't argue, it works.

Your argument seems that you can suffer negative returns in damage from weapons and count on Embers WoF and accelerant to make up the difference. Sure you can use that argument, but I don't think that really counts as enemies not having armor and damage reduction auras (nit picking) but i am going to go home and test it just to be sure(if that is your argument). 

I'm just sort of confused by this argument, I'm going to back off from it until I see with my own eyes.

 

 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

lolwut

 i thought he was being sarcastic--but there was no punchline at the end...

[-Kryptyk-]

2 hours ago, Fi-le said:

 

Fast! Take your Mk1-Braton/Mk1-Kunai and other Mk1 weapons, and do all the mission with those, even 2H Tier 4 missions....XD

my god the nosense

to be fair, a 6 forma'd mk-1 braton is still insane.  I'd LOVE to see people rage about us using that.... *grabs the mk-1....*