Overpowered players

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

17 hours ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

I'm actually very satisfied with the game in its current form and I'm MR21. I worked hard to be overpowered a little bit and in Sorties I cannot see that every players is owerpowed because below MR 15 most of them are working very hard to succeed. 

I'm not sure you understand. There's a big difference in being powerful and being overpowered. Being powerful means you can complete the hardest content whereas being overpowered means you can trivialize the content and turn it into a farming simulator. We are not supposed to be able to trivialize sorties, yet we can. Trivialized content is a nightmare for everyone. Developers can't make enemies that aren't cheesy if they hope for them to last a second. Their new content is likewise burned through by OP players which in turn forces developers to make grind walls and hide rewards behind absurdly low drop chance. Players on the other hand also lose. We can't find a challenge without gimping ourselves or trying endurance runs that eventually turn into unforgiving cheese fests.

As for players working hard...Does that matter on their MR so much? Once they max their core mods and reach MR12 for OP syndicate weps they're pretty much done. Players don't even need to max core mods to blow through the Starchart and the void.

17 hours ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

I'm not satisfied with lack of replayable content or the waste of development in Lunaro instead of PvP.

Agreed

17 hours ago, (PS4)Doctor-Blitz- said:

In spite of actual nerfs - or should I say because- Warframe is losing players in the 4th month a row on Steam Charts.

That's just your Hypothesis. I could just as easily assume that they're leaving due to the pointless grind and no challenging content.

[radastir]

11 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Because obviously people who don't agree with you are literally Hitler and hate everyone who's having fun because reasons. Right.

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by radastir
Fixed inappropriate symbol

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

2 hours ago, LocoWithGun said:

How long did the current reworks take to implement? And those were less of a jump than your idea.

What you're looking at there is timeline of about 2 years. Everything would need to be touched. And while this happenes the game would run on skeleton crew, also all new content releases would be instantly obsolete and would just mean more work for DE (as they would have to create double systems for each item). So either the content would stop -> game dead or it would further slow down the development (and this is where 2 years start to look generous). And it really doesn't matter whether you cut it into chunks or not.

You've got obscene amount of coding, but not only that you've got animation work as well in there. Just your combo idea across 24 melee types multiplied by how many stances we have. There's a reason why games with deep melee systems don't have 100 melee weapons. Btw that combo idea you ripped straight from Remember Me. It didn't even work well in that game! You built like two OP combos (energy and health refill usually) and spammed them again and again!

To be workable this would have to be cut down SIGNIFICANTLY at which point you get half-assed rework and you'd be the first person complaining on the forums about it when it came out.

And what would players that don't want the game turned on its head do all this time while content grinds to a standstill and they wait for rework they don't want?

Lastly how do you refund them for something that has no equivalent under your new system? Oh gee, I get all my cores back? Well there's nothing to @(*()$ use them on now! That's like someone totalling my car and then offering to pay for my damages with gas.

And there will always be most efficient option, your system won't change that. There's viable and then there's efficient. And A LOT of things under current system might not be efficient but they're viable, people just don't bother to branch out. But that is their prerogative and I shall not attempt to force them by reworking the system under them.

TLD;DR: Don't presume to say this is for my benefit or benefit for the whole playerbase and at least have the respect to meet people in the middle instead of painting cloud castles.

Alright alright, I agree it would take a long time and the transition period would be rough. 

Warframe has been around too long for them to cater a new foundation, so a change of grand scale may cause problems whether it would've been for better or worse.

I still believe melee needs a rework in its entirety, and how they go about that doesn't have to be as my post - but they do need to add for versatility and buttons for combos instead of just 2-3. Switching to melee should change the whole setup in of itself. Innate life steal for players who combo or defeat tough enemies.

I also still believe that all weapons and frames need a foundation to go off of, in the sense that all weapons and frames should be near identical in viability and efficiency. How do we go about that?

1. Hard cap enemy level to 40 (while keeping players at 30 the same). enemies at 0-10 for beginners, 10-20 for intermediate, 20-30 for advanced, and 30-40 for high end/challenging content. 40+ (at that point good luck difficulty) for endless missions so players at some point will be forced to leave or die. Enemy health/damage scaling will be linear and AI will be more difficult as level increases.
2. Readjust frames, weapons, companions to be viable for new enemy levels and level cap. Elemental mods, damage type mods will convert weapon damage into that specific type instead of a pure damage bonus. (example: 100 damage sword with 60% shocking touch mod creates 40 damage and 60 electric damage - making it still a good build for corpus).
3. Remove all pure damage mods (serration, pressure point, etc) and implement them into the weapons and pets so as the player levels - so does their damage. (The increase in damage to level goes with idea 2's statement).
4. Remove warframe ability mods intensity, streamline, stretch, and continuity and keep and expand the corrupted mods (having an advantage/disadvantage in return for a specific type of playstyle focus for players).
5. Add damage/power/movement bonuses for skillful plays/combos/teamplay.

 

Mandatory mods should never be a thing, ruins player choice and versatility. Players get cores from mods taken away - and yes cores will still be useful for future content of new mods that revolve around preferred play styles.

Weapons damage now scale by level (as stated above in list) also (I would also add a very slight boost in critical and or status chance if forma is applied - ex: 1% increase per forma (Max increase 3 forma) to reward players for re ranking rather than just being able to add more mods.

When leveling weapons they will have a level cap depending how far you are in the star chart (example: you can only level gear to 5 on Mercury until you get to the next planet) preventing players from maxing their weapons off the bat and annihilating all content prior to endgame. (Since in the rework list above the damage scales with leveling the weapon).

With enemies having a cap - it's easier to code weapons revolving around that cap brining the best odds of all frames and weapons being viable and efficiencent no matter the play style.

 

I believe at the very least this should be the change to give warframe options - I wonder what damage 3.0 will bring in U19 - probably not this list but hopefully a start?

 

[HarrodTasker]

What I'm getting from reading this thread is, a lot of people think they can make their own game.  So... do it.  What are you waiting for?

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, radastir said:

 

Not sure if trolling.......

*clicks third option anyway*

Dammit

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

3 hours ago, HarrodTasker said:

What I'm getting from reading this thread is, a lot of people think they can make their own game.  So... do it.  What are you waiting for?

Oh, wow. So any suggestion community might have should just be dismissed as being armchair designers that should just make their own game. The changes that I suggested in the OP wouldn't really require that much work. It's mostly numerical tweaking and adding new mods. It's what they do in every update anyway.

[radastir]

26 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Not sure if trolling.......

*clicks third option anyway*

Dammit

I've heard rumours that the third option leads to disturbing pictures of certain warframes doing disturbing things...

(Never verified this for myself, of course...)

Edited July 7, 2016 by radastir

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 7/5/2016 at 10:19 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So, you don't think making enemies do 20% or more of warframe's EHP per shot and turning them into bullet sponges makes the game binary and unforgiving? I can't comprehend how you can't see the point that scaling back warframe damage would allow us to also scale enemies back. Level has 0 effect on enemy behavior, so once you've encountered all the enemies in the game, all that's left is to: scale their stats, introduce eximuses in ever increasing numbers and force limitations on the players.

Yes, that's one of the reasons why I proposed my changes. The fact that players can keep going at all beyond 1 hour is thanks to ability spam and broken energy economy. It's not like enemies become anymore challenging after 45min, they're just able to take more than a few hits and dish out ever increasing damage.

My problem with this is the fact that I don't believe that our enemies are ever supposed to be on our level. Grineer are degenerating cyborg clones, Corpus are indoctrinated slaves and mass produced robots and infested are mindless monsters. None of them are supposed to have mysterious void powers (eximuses) or have the ability to block warframe powers. Our enemies should never have insane EHP above 500k.

Sadly, the fact our enemies can do all those things is merely a response to players. There would be no nucifiers and eximuses if there was no ability spam and there would be no enemies with EHP beyond 100k if we didn't have weapons that can easily kill them.

What you fail or refuse to acknowledge is that as your mods level up and you acquire powerful weapons all the "real" skills lose meaning due to ability spam. There is no need to use cover or roll for 75% DR because the enemies are blind, slowed and disarmed. As players get more "skilled" in your definition, they only need to focus on ability synergy and spamming. The true master of warframe has only one thing to fear, falling asleep due to boredom. And no, sitting in a bubble spamming skills is not "ultimate" teamwork. It's the trivialization of both warframes and our enemies. Our warframes get specialized into one trick ponies that can't survive outside the bubble for long and our enemies are turned into resource/ affinity farm or even worse mere road bumps that you have to cross to get to that C rotation.

You obviously didn't even read the OP. I never suggested damage level with weapons and no, Serration is NOT account level progression. The same way MR is merely fodder leveling. Unless of course you suggest that players are not supposed to level serration and equivalents until they reach end game, which would be just as silly.

It takes about 20 min on draco to fully level a weapon.

There is little to no account progression in the warframe. MR and the content it locks is merely about leveling weapons you'll never use again and mods can easily be bought for plat or manually leveled. Warframes can be easily leveled and once they are formad and have all the mods you are pretty much done. 

There is NO ACCOUNT DAMAGE PROGRESSION. Only mods and MR locked weapons allow you to get super strong. It's got nothing to do with completing hard content and everything to do with farming or paying your way. Even arcanes can be simply bought.

No, it's not a "part of this game". Remember when we had to actually equip abilities? People did just as you have said and made one trick ponies and DE responded that warframes should use all skills and baked the skills directly into warframes.

If you don't agree with my reworks you can always go to mercury to feel like a god and "do your best". It's part of the game after all and nobody will punish you...

 

What I take from all this is that you think players should be nerfed because of player ability spam. Ability spam ONLY possible and ONLY effective with team play and especially with energy pads and trinity. What you don't account for is solo play AND how modding for efficiency ruins other stats. Abilities that are build to be spammed ruin duration and strength. I personally only build channeling powers for efficiency, as I hate constantly recasting, even if it's more effective. I hate nullifiers just as much as you do. I believe they are bad enemy design. They're just crewman with a backpack and all of a sudden, they can nullify all of our powers. I've always said that they should at most prevent power CASTING but not powers themselves. That's just wrong, but that's an argument for another thread. What I'm saying is that abbilities that are spammable will make no difference if the end result is the same. I can spam accelerant all I want. In fact, the increased cast time will help me, but it still won't make much difference.

First, we must balance the game to have missions start with higher level enemies. That way, maxed out frames can test their metal against the challenges they seek without having to wait an hour. THEN, any warframe that proves "overpowered" will be balanced accordingly. Flat out saying all frames should be nerfed and enemies should be nerfed is just wrong.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 hours ago, HarrodTasker said:

What I'm getting from reading this thread is, a lot of people think they can make their own game.  So... do it.  What are you waiting for?

We don't want a new game. We want a better warframe. If would allow me to make my own warframe, I'd be on that right now.

[(PSN)Doctor-Blitz-]

10 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I'm not sure you understand. There's a big difference in being powerful and being overpowered. Being powerful means you can complete the hardest content whereas being overpowered means you can trivialize the content and turn it into a farming simulator.

No. I really like to work hard for being really overpowered. I living in German with the no speed limit Autobahn. A car with 100km/h ist enough. 200 is powerful but >250 is overpowered. Drive and you will also like to be overpowered.

[(XBOX)Skode]

2 hours ago, radastir said:

I've heard rumours that the third option leads to disturbing pictures of certain warframes doing disturbing things...

(Never verified this for myself, of course...)

I've seen that video, curiosity killed the cat! The internet Is a scary place lol

[IRVoidGuru]

On 7/7/2016 at 6:04 PM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

What I take from all this is that you think players should be nerfed because of player ability spam. Ability spam ONLY possible and ONLY effective with team play and especially with energy pads and trinity. What you don't account for is solo play AND how modding for efficiency ruins other stats. Abilities that are build to be spammed ruin duration and strength. I personally only build channeling powers for efficiency, as I hate constantly recasting, even if it's more effective. I hate nullifiers just as much as you do. I believe they are bad enemy design. They're just crewman with a backpack and all of a sudden, they can nullify all of our powers. I've always said that they should at most prevent power CASTING but not powers themselves. That's just wrong, but that's an argument for another thread. What I'm saying is that abbilities that are spammable will make no difference if the end result is the same. I can spam accelerant all I want. In fact, the increased cast time will help me, but it still won't make much difference.

First, we must balance the game to have missions start with higher level enemies. That way, maxed out frames can test their metal against the challenges they seek without having to wait an hour. THEN, any warframe that proves "overpowered" will be balanced accordingly. Flat out saying all frames should be nerfed and enemies should be nerfed is just wrong.

i love this comment , so good it should be seen twice

[Kaiser_Suoh]

On 15/6/2016 at 3:36 AM, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more 

 

 

dont forget the "buff" to enemies

[ARKANOiiDe]

Where is the "defend" the core map that was Helene?

[Avalona]

Welcome to thread #91876230871243098 made by someone who only camped recruit chat for key leech (thankfully now gone), or sit all days in region chat and obviously has never played past star map, running any event (that's the place with real challenge) or doing actual grind to improve their skill and arsenal (eg 5-forma weapon/frame or focus), and all about complaining when they see someone playing better than them.

Seriously most player that was subjected to your nerf scream have grinded no less than 2 months straight boosting their skill and arsenal and you're just here like OVERPOWERED PLAYER PLS NERF

[HellDevil]

Another rant that lives on in memorie. DE is busy trying to get the new warframe and new primes and takeing care of everything and you worried about power creeping. Warframe been power creep since day 1. Fix like this would take months to a year and cost of maintaining it.

[Gunstray]

DO you people ever get tired of complaining about balance and the need to nerf players WHO earned their way to be overpowered?

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, Gunstray said:

DO you people ever get tired of complaining about balance and the need to nerf players WHO earned their way to be overpowered?

Do you ever get tired of making a discussion about yourself? There is no such thing  as earning the right to be overpowered. You don't get to break the game just because you played it a lot. 

 

2 hours ago, HellDevil said:

Another rant that lives on in memorie. DE is busy trying to get the new warframe and new primes and takeing care of everything and you worried about power creeping. 

The new warframes and new primes will have the same problems as our current ones because of powercreep. That doesn't mean anything. 

 

3 hours ago, Avalona said:

Welcome to thread #91876230871243098 made by someone who only camped recruit chat for key leech (thankfully now gone), or sit all days in region chat and obviously has never played past star map, running any event (that's the place with real challenge) or doing actual grind to improve their skill and arsenal (eg 5-forma weapon/frame or focus), and all about complaining when they see someone playing better than them.

Welcome to comment #94575044511029 that thinks they can "expose"  people who disagree with them as people who just hate other players because muh kills when none of them actually used that reasoning anywhere in the thread in an attempt to defame the person instead of what they are saying. 

 

3 hours ago, Avalona said:

Seriously most player that was subjected to your nerf scream have grinded no less than 2 months straight boosting their skill and arsenal and you're just here like OVERPOWERED PLAYER PLS NERF

And I haven't done the same? The only difference is that I can see that the Arsenal is broken, and it is negatively affecting the game in many ways, but all you care about is big damage numbers and easy loot, while in the same breath complaining about the problems big damage numbers and easy loot cause. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

4 hours ago, Gunstray said:

DO you people ever get tired of complaining about balance and the need to nerf players WHO earned their way to be overpowered?

what if as a veteran i feel like i "earn" a challenge?

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

On 5.7.2016 at 11:34 AM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Nothing off. The ash prime really wasn't doing anything except teleporting to life supports and blade storming enemies for arcane trickery to activate. Blade storm wasn't even killing enemies at all. Plus, it was 5 in the morning. He was tired lol, 

Choosing a loadout can be skillful. I've seen many people you don't know how to build their warframes or maximize their skills. It is a skill to understand how these warframes work. Then applying these skills into actual gameplay is also a skill. It comes easy to a lot of people because either they watch YouTube channels or just listen to the community. 

imo off: you speak about teamwork yet you were able to trivialize content 4 HOURS into a survival with only 2 frames making another teammember practically jobless. thing is: it is widely known the same can be accomplished even solo by certain frames/setups, even up to enemy lvl 9999. yet all of this is only fueling OPs arguments in my book...

 

to illustrate what i am missing from this game i'd like to draw some arguably doubtful analogies to a dear classic game of my childhood: megaman 2.

in megaman you shoot, dodge bullets, jump around ("parcour") and collect weapons to use tactically against your enemies / bosses. in this almost 30 year old game skill didn't end at the weapon select screen, oh no. even if some robot masters (bosses) were actually trivially easy with the right weapon, once you got them all there was still wiley's castle, megaman's "endgame". here you absolutely needed everything at your disposal to even stand a chance, you absolutely had to use all the gear collected thus far to its fullest potential and the game still had to be like... played, y'know. you couldnt stand around wiley (endboss) and just spam bubbles til he died. you couldn't just mindlessly waste away your weapon energy, you had to stategically save it for critical encounters. familiarizing yourself with the level layouts / enemies and picking your loadout accordingly / working out an approach, those were merely basic prerequisites. i beat this game for the first time as a 3rd grader and from then on regularly almost every week for years...

i know this is kinda far fetched and not a perfect comparison but it's showing where i'm coming from, in the literal and the figurative sense of the word. this game is lacking wiley's castle, so to speak. and something like that is not even conceivable when you're able to one shot lvl9999 enemies while being perma invisible. never ever.

i think i do understand how you'd like to define warframe's endgame now. to you it's already there, just let us get there faster... sure, there is less room for mistakes against higher scaled enemies (like you could suddenly forget to press that one relevant button for a second for whatever reason and be instantly one-shot), so yes, in that regard the game would be more "difficult" in a way i guess but:

as an action game / 3rd person shooter it'd still be insanely dull.

 

On 5.7.2016 at 9:22 PM, Kettunen said:

Designwise WF is a pretty interesting creature. Many of its features are familiar from other games but unfortunately they're also working heavily against each other when player has progressed far enough. This is probably one of the reasons why it's such a pain to discuss in the forums since people value each facet and feature differently, thus having vastly different ideas on how the game should be developed. Few however manage to address all the problems.

i guess kettunen is right: the game is so extremely branched out it attracts a wide variety of people and maybe pleasing them all is pretty much impossible by now. or even finding common categories to constructively argue with.

IF you were to intepret warframe as basically an rpg with some decorative action elements i guess it works to a degree. if however you take it as an action title / 3rd person shooter with rpg style progression, it's in a more than dubious state imo. anyway personally i'm of the latter faction as alot of warframes potential indicates towards this direction like an elabroate parcour system and well... a gazillion different guns with which at least in theory you can aim with (even if it's barely needed depending on loadout).

 

come to think of it maybe that's the whole point really.

maybe warframe is supposed to be just that: an action game for people who are bad at action games. people who feel being able to read wikis and basically operate a keyboard and mouse are actual skills (maybe some godlike patience to top it off). well, if this turns out to be DE's artistic vision indeed, godspeed to them and you alike. but for the moment i still like to believe they just got somewhat lost appealing to the masses with "bigger better faster stronger" content and will find a way again. i think endless void missions not providing an incentive to be done ridiculously long anymore besides the fun in trying to achieve extremes might be a good sign...

 

warframe is an addicting guilty pleasure alright. presentation A+, in terms of substance... well let's just say not on par for the time being. lots of stuff, little polish and actual gameplay... (in an action game/3d shooter sense at least).

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir
typos, the usual

[radastir]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

what if as a veteran i feel like i "earn" a challenge?

Then go with likeminded people in private matches and have fun with them as mentioned a million times before but don't try to spoil the fun for other players.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Just now, radastir said:

Then go with likeminded people in private matches and have fun with them as mentioned a million times before but don't try to spoil the fun for other players.

i could just as well tell you to play private matches on mercury for godmode.

DE never went "you want endgame? just gimp yourself lel". they present raids, sorties and lvl9999 alerts. and it's all still not only easy but practically skippable with the right loadout.

if i'd feel satisfied by solving challenges imposed upon me by myself i might just as well try to go to the grocer's blindfolded or something...

to me that's what games are for: problems of choice. no problem=no game.

[Prany]

5 minutes ago, radastir said:

Then go with likeminded people in private matches and have fun with them as mentioned a million times before but don't try to spoil the fun for other players.

Or maybe Kotsender will consider dropping Warframe entirely and find a game which fancies his desires with no obstructions. And that is not in DE's best intersts.

[Ketec]

skills being spammable is what makes game even remotely fun. Having to micromanage  and use skills rarely and just pew pew  1 enemy at a time is the very definition of boring.

[Friedelinde]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

what if as a veteran i feel like i "earn" a challenge?

No one's stopping you from unequipping all mods and go have fun getting shot by corrupted bombards, while also unequipping all mods from your weapons and deal 30 damage on enemies!

Thing is, everyone have options to play how they like. The way I see it, Player A choose to grind their butts to maximum power, and Player B choose not to. At this moment, Player B is blaming player A for their choices and screaming for the game to be made to fit Player B's likings!

You see where this is going? Why the flip you are blaming your inability to take action on those who have chosen theirs? You don't want to nuke the map? well don't! no one's stopping you. You don't want to see player using the gears you don't like? well no one's stopping you from using yours do they?

I have never seen anyone saying "look at these people spending time to explore the map, DE should make it so that in exterminate mission if you didn't kill an enemy in 5 seconds-period the game would count as instant loss!", were there any now?