Fundamentally flawed enemies

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

6 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.  Anyway, I don't have the Vectis.  My Sniper of choice is the Rubico.  You asked a question, and I gave my honest answer.  I didn't say they were the optimal methods of doing it.  But you have to consider the limits of the sortie, and work with it. 

Like I said, I don't mind it in Sorties.  I do mind it in every corpus and void mission.  You are happy with how snipers interact with nullifiers?  You think it's a good thing the entire weapon class is 'not optimal'?

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Like I said, I don't mind it in Sorties.  I do mind it in every corpus and void mission.  You are happy with how snipers interact with nullifiers?  You think it's a good thing the entire weapon class is 'not optimal'?

Autos are too good against Nullfiers; not the other way around.  The main reason that people see snipers as a problematic outlier is because they would rather not deal with Nullifiers at all in the first place.  Nerf minimum damage to the shield, and increase maximum damage, and you'll see the disparity between autos and snipers smoothed out while stuff like shotguns and DMRs will be slightly buffed or stay the same.  

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

27 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Autos are too good against Nullfiers; not the other way around.  The main reason that people see snipers as a problematic outlier is because they would rather not deal with Nullifiers at all in the first place.  Nerf minimum damage to the shield, and increase maximum damage, and you'll see the disparity between autos and snipers smoothed out while stuff like shotguns and DMRs will be slightly buffed or stay the same.  

I would be quite happy with that solution since nullifiers would no longer be my primary concern during weapon selection.

[(PSN)Saobie3]

On 6/25/2016 at 1:17 PM, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Guess i hav to type in this box because the sit is again, very glitchy. 

Ignore the line above

 

Can we bring up how SO many Grineer units can rob you of mobility? Rollers stun, filthy piece of crap scorpions (you might see a tad bit of biased ire towards these crapwhistles) can knockdown and pull (which vry often results in me falling off a ledge). Bombards can knockdown. Every grineer heavy can knockdown if you get close. Powerfitsts can make you jimmy neutron out of there (gotta blast!), Drakks, Drakk Masters, and (i think) Hyekas can stagger. Swatt wanab Grineer (shield guys) can knockdown, and oftn will spam this making it quite hard to get up. And lets not forget how oftn Arson Eximus spawn..

 

And the majority of those enemies spawn commonly. Yno how fun Draco is for me? Zero. Absolutely zero fun. I only run it because of the exp, but getting pulled every .00002 seconds by a crappy &#! scorpion, or blasted into space by a powerfist, or staggered by the trillions of arson eximus, Or (almost) knockdown-locked by shield scrubs. And then theres rollers, who will even disrupt you as you try to take them out in th most logical way; melee

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

I would be quite happy with that solution since nullifiers would no longer be my primary concern during weapon selection.

I guess the reason I don't have a problem with the loadouts is because I generally choose my secondary to compliment or supplement my Primary.  I do this regardless of mission.  You could say it's a holdover I have from playing other games.  This way I'm prepared in-case stuff happens. 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I guess the reason I don't have a problem with the loadouts is because I generally choose my secondary to compliment or supplement my Primary.  I do this regardless of mission.  You could say it's a holdover I have from playing other games.  This way I'm prepared in-case stuff happens. 

And we go back to the bit about being forced to use the secondary at the almost total exclusion of the primary due to the constant nullifier spawns at higher levels.  It's not that I'm not prepared, I just want my sniper to have more floor time. 

[DatDarkOne]

Yeah, yeah and I want Deluxe Skin for Ivara.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Yeah, yeah and I want Deluxe Skin for Ivara.

At least that will happen one day.

[MacabreHaze]

I've stopped using a sniper rifle on corpus missions pretty much because of nullifies. More so in missions like survival or defense than missions where the spawn rate doesn't matter as much. 

And instead I use a gunblade. Because the gunblade works on everything. Gunblade is love. Gunblade is life. 

I've heard that it doesn't work at high levels, but thats more of a scaling problem than a bad enemy design problem. 


Also calling the Nullifier difficult is like calling the RNG difficult. 

[(PSN)Saobie3]

2 hours ago, MacabreHaze said:

I've stopped using a sniper rifle on corpus missions pretty much because of nullifies. More so in missions like survival or defense than missions where the spawn rate doesn't matter as much. 

And instead I use a gunblade. Because the gunblade works on everything. Gunblade is love. Gunblade is life. 

I've heard that it doesn't work at high levels, but thats more of a scaling problem than a bad enemy design problem. 


Also calling the Nullifier difficult is like calling the RNG difficult. 

Your right, theyre not difficult, they just have a flawed design. A nully by himself is an absolute joke, but when you add in other enemies things can get a little problematic. Which is fine, if nullies purpose was to bubbleshield enemies id like that, it sounds like a corpus thing to do anyways. 

 

The problem is they render your warframe useless against them. What kind of game has an enemy that is immune to the absolute core and fundimental mechanics of the game?

[RealPandemonium]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Saobie3 said:

 immune to the absolute core and fundimental mechanics of the game?

You mean gunning and swording things?

[Marthrym]

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

You mean gunning and swording things?

You mean one of the few things that give Warframe any semblance of uniqueness (unless guns or swords are a rare occurence in video games?) is not to be considered a core feature at all? Guess the "third-rate TPS with fancy graphics and zero challenge" aspect of Warframe holds even more true than I thought... But hey, at least it looks nice and shiny! That's gotta be good enough, right? I know I know, the game has other things that make it special, today more than ever, but this one is rather vital too, don't you think?^^'

In all seriousness, if nullies presented any kind of fair challenge, or even FUN, they wouldn't need so much flame repellant. Providing an answer to overpowered CC abilities that tend to render any enemy that isn't immune to them more or less completely harmless being the obvious reason behind their very creation, I think the issue isn't that they do that, but rather that they do that and then some, since they don't just protect from powers, but from weapons too. Add that to the ridiculous damage output they end up having thanks to an even more ridiculous scaling system that mostly only benefits the AI, plus their spawnrate in missions where CC kinda becomes the one thing that saves us from instant death, I think saying nullifiers may just happen to "wear too many hats" is a fairly valid, though granted as subjective as any, observation, at least in the current game we play. TTK is the single most important thing now that CC isn't as reliable as it used to be, especially in "veteran" content, as the devs like to call it, for some strange reason. And the mechanics the bubbles use provide just enough of a survivability buffer not only to nullifiers, but also to units in the bubble, which is most problematic when enemy scaling goes vertical and every enemy is a walking nuke that needs to be dispatched as fast as possible.

I could also say that I think they are a poorly thought-out kneejerk reaction to the forementioned CC powers being "too good" at what they do, and that the "smart" thing to do would have been to do something about the problem that caused their creation instead of creating a whole new bunch of balance problems along with them, and that they didn't even come close to solving the original problem to boot!

Of course that's just a biased opinion, based on my personal tastes and experience of the game. I don't think nullifiers don't have a place in Warframe, they've been around for too long anyway. I just think they have a much bigger impact on the game than just making powers "less" effective, an impact that can be a tad too strong sometimes, and takes away gameplay options more than it provides challenge or require any "thinking" on our part to deal with. Unless brain-dead shooting or suicide melee attacks belong to that category...

Edited June 29, 2016 by Marthrym

[LuckyCharm]

Instead of simply removing nullifiers... Why not just split them in two, with different coloured shields. 

One to block weapon damage and another to block skills. That way it requires you to play around them based on what hits them. At least then you'd have an option of killing them besides running at them and melee hitting them, or spraying them with some fast fire rate weapon. And it would still have the chance to get two nulls at once which would give the current effect

[rockscl]

i cant even imagine how someone can think that nullifiers are not right, even after reading this thread`s posts i try to imagine myself in the situations they describe as problems and all that my brain can construct is the nullifier getting rekt

i would like if snipers had some specific utility against them tho, thats probably the only point where i agree around here

Edited June 29, 2016 by rockscl

[Kinetos]

ancient hooks are still performing impossible feats. I, as Inaros, just encountered 2 ancients that weren't aware of my presence, i get in front of them, throw sand in their faces, and both drag me to the ground one after the other. when i stand up i move behind them and execute them both with finishers, so they were definitely blinded when they threw their hooks.

this adds to their observed abilities of hitting targets that change directions midair after they telegraph, targets behind them, and targets on the other side of solid cover.

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, KinetosImpetus said:

ancient hooks are still performing impossible feats. I, as Inaros, just encountered 2 ancients that weren't aware of my presence, i get in front of them, throw sand in their faces, and both drag me to the ground one after the other. when i stand up i move behind them and execute them both with finishers, so they were definitely blinded when they threw their hooks.

this adds to their observed abilities of hitting targets that change directions midair after they telegraph, targets behind them, and targets on the other side of solid cover.

Ancient hooks never change directions once they've been launched.  At best, this is a case of desync.  The only times I ever get hit by hooks, I can recognize that it's completely my fault.  

[SinergyX]

Though i got to live with nulifiers now, its the other annoying corpus ones that really piss me off, think they do a 100% magnatic proc, UI goes crazy and all energy gone.

[Kinetos]

4 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Ancient hooks never change directions once they've been launched.  At best, this is a case of desync.  The only times I ever get hit by hooks, I can recognize that it's completely my fault.  

I was and usually am solo. 

[BlackCoMerc]

Warframes enemy design is woeful.

Nullifiers Rob the game of its very identity, turning it into a (not very good) generic shooter. That they exist on 90℅ of missions a vet will see now, means we may as well take our wallets and go play something else, since we can't reliably use our actual frames anyway.

Commanders: so poorly designed it's a wonder they got past QA. They are more an in game trolling than a unit. Cheap, unavoidable LoS teleport. Then, intelligence insulting forced stunlock. It's literally the game playing you. Poorly designed, in its utter lack of counterplay. Commanders should buff or summon other units, not imitate Loki. It's frankly absurdly stupid that they have this ability. Don't spawn everywhere, bit spawn far too often when they do.

Scorpion/Ancient: cheap and frustrating. Very poorly designed technically, as evidenced by the 180° grappling hook firing from a hand pointed straight ahead. Shoddy animation, cheap control robbing tactics and like Nullifiers, too high a spawn count.

Leech auras: health and energy drain. In a radius. Unavoidable. No counterplay. How is this even a thing?

Butcher: lose the knock back. That a low level grunt can now push around Warframes like they're unruly school children is absurd.

Any Magically power immune Capture Target: seriously. I have never seen a more poorly designed, boring and repetitive mission in my life. No options. No tactics. No stealth or choice. Just a foot race against a speed buffed damage sponge ON EVERY RUN. Renders most frames useless, makes Rush MANDATORY and is utterly ridiculous.

 

In 20 years of gaming, I have never seen worse enemy design in a game than Warframe offers. Say what you will of Desriny, at least it lets you play it, as opposed to robbing you of your tools or your input every few seconds.

Warframe needs a rebalance. Of frames. Of weapons. Powers. Enemies. Game wide. The cheap, control robbing, toolset removal crap is a crutch that needs to go.

 

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, KinetosImpetus said:

I was and usually am solo. 

Wait longer before dodging, then.  Timing matters.

[Kinetos]

8 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Wait longer before dodging, then.  Timing matters.

They were blind. 

[RealPandemonium]

Just now, KinetosImpetus said:

They were blind. 

Only thing I can think of is that the action was already queued when you blinded them so they go ahead with it before becoming vegetables.  Blinding isn't 100% foolproof, after all (just 98%.)

[Kinetos]

1 minute ago, RealPandemonium said:

Only thing I can think of is that the action was already queued when you blinded them so they go ahead with it before becoming vegetables.  Blinding isn't 100% foolproof, after all (just 98%.)

And been hit with solid cover between us in other instances. More than once. 

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, KinetosImpetus said:

And been hit with solid cover between us in other instances. More than once. 

I read this on the forums a lot but I can't say it ever happened to me even once in 3 years of play.  

[Kinetos]

6 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I read this on the forums a lot but I can't say it ever happened to me even once in 3 years of play.  

Well you not experiencing it doesn't prove it doesn't happen.