The main problem right now: there's nothing to do

[widenose]

The problem is that there's a lot less stuff to actually do. It's not so much that content got removed, just that before, there was a decent amount of content that was both challenging and rewarding. Now, there is much less rewarding content. The overlap between "challenging" and "rewarding" seems to be nothing but sorties now.

Let's examine:

• Endless void missions: you no longer get prime parts, so not rewarding (i.e. no real reason to do)
• Dark sectors give terrible credits now
• LoR credit rewards got nerfed*, and most LoR arcanes are junk anyway
• Void fissures are beyond boring. Unlike some void missions like sabs which require you to actually search for caches, these consist of standing in one place shooting things.

So, when you take a game where 80%+ of the star chart is filler to begin with, and remove/nerf the few things that are actually interesting or challenging, you get a game where the daily routine is basically "sorties, forma, log out". Sorties are pretty much the last bastion of content that's worth playing, and you can only get the reward (both credit and seasonal reward) once a day.

Now, I'm willing to give DE the benefit of the doubt on credit rewards and assume it's all a bug that will be fixed. But killing endless void missions is just a plain bad idea. If someone really hated void missions that much or was experiencing so-called "void fatigue", then they were free to simply buy the item with plat. There's very little actual argument in favor of killing void missions like that. If someone liked it, they could do it. If someone didn't like it, nobody was putting a gun to their head and making them do it. Plus, under the new systems, there's no reward for going 40, 60, or longer - it's the same exact thing every time.

The only step in the right direction is the addition of fusion cores to alerts. But those are still a pathetic reward unless it's a very fast mission. It would be one thing if it gave 2-3 cores (or more), but when it's one single core, not guaranteed to be gold, and not guaranteed to be R5, it's just not worth it.

Maybe someone will point out something I'm missing, but right now it seems like the game just doesn't have many worthwhile missions. And no, the solution to post-DEAC scaling issues isn't to remove post-DEAC. Not to mention, things other than missions (trading, kubrow/kavat breeding, etc) tend to require credits, which got almost unilaterally nerfed.

 

 

* Yes, I'm aware that there's a visual bug with boosters. But I looked at the difference between credits before and credits after a LoR, and it's about 100k without, 200k with boosters. Compare that to ~170/~340 before.

 

Edit: It's also worth noting that this kind of thing, especially the credits, would be extremely harsh on a new player. That Kubrow quest you just finished? 100k for an incubator power core. Wanna buy a primed mod? 1 mil. Maxing an R10 mod? Enjoy.

Edited July 22, 2016 by widenose

[pauli133]

I'm not sure how you get to a point where there's "nothing to do", but you still care about credits.

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

As far as dark sector excavation goes, I am with you. I have run 5 excavations recently to 1000 cryotic just before this post. Out of these 5 runs I got 5 cores. Everything else was credits and keys, credits and keys. How is it that one day I can get a decent amount of cores per run and the next day I get credits after credits after credits in place of cores. The drop tables of cores in dark sector seem to change based on days. How DE decides these days where they feel like letting the community have cores? I don't know. There is no way I can have success getting cores 1 day, running missions back to back and then another day I run it back to back as I did the previous day and I get nothing but credits and keys. Yesterday core drops on excavation were mediocre but I was still getting cores. Today I get nothing but credits and keys. This is BS. **** this ***** game for today. I am done.

[blackheartstar_pc]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

I am done.

As are many players.

[Katchwi2]

57 minutes ago, widenose said:

The problem is that there's a lot less stuff to actually do. It's not so much that content got removed, just that before, there was a decent amount of content that was both challenging and rewarding. Now, there is much less rewarding content. The overlap between "challenging" and "rewarding" seems to be nothing but sorties now.

Let's examine:

• Endless void missions: you no longer get prime parts, so not rewarding (i.e. no real reason to do)
• Dark sectors give terrible credits now
• LoR credit rewards got nerfed*, and most LoR arcanes are junk anyway
• Void fissures are beyond boring. Unlike some void missions like sabs which require you to actually search for caches, these consist of standing in one place shooting things.

So, when you take a game where 80%+ of the star chart is filler to begin with, and remove/nerf the few things that are actually interesting or challenging, you get a game where the daily routine is basically "sorties, forma, log out". Sorties are pretty much the last bastion of content that's worth playing, and you can only get the reward (both credit and seasonal reward) once a day.

Now, I'm willing to give DE the benefit of the doubt on credit rewards and assume it's all a bug that will be fixed. But killing endless void missions is just a plain bad idea. If someone really hated void missions that much or was experiencing so-called "void fatigue", then they were free to simply buy the item with plat. There's very little actual argument in favor of killing void missions like that. If someone liked it, they could do it. If someone didn't like it, nobody was putting a gun to their head and making them do it. Plus, under the new systems, there's no reward for going 40, 60, or longer - it's the same exact thing every time.

The only step in the right direction is the addition of fusion cores to alerts. But those are still a pathetic reward unless it's a very fast mission. It would be one thing if it gave 2-3 cores (or more), but when it's one single core, not guaranteed to be gold, and not guaranteed to be R5, it's just not worth it.

Maybe someone will point out something I'm missing, but right now it seems like the game just doesn't have many worthwhile missions. And no, the solution to post-DEAC scaling issues isn't to remove post-DEAC. Not to mention, things other than missions (trading, kubrow/kavat breeding, etc) tend to require credits, which got almost unilaterally nerfed.

 

 

* Yes, I'm aware that there's a visual bug with boosters. But I looked at the difference between credits before and credits after a LoR, and it's about 100k without, 200k with boosters. Compare that to ~170/~340 before.

Enjoy what you can then leave. Dont complain too much because you will be censored.

[widenose]

1 hour ago, pauli133 said:

I'm not sure how you get to a point where there's "nothing to do", but you still care about credits.

Because there are plenty of interesting things to do outside of the core gameplay (trading, breeding, etc) but those ultimately require a steady stream of credits. But now, there isn't really a designated credit farm location like there was before, so anyone who doesn't have tons of credits saved up from before these changes gets effectively locked out of that content.

I don't mind having to do some farm missions here and there to get resources, since it's something to do. It doesn't get boring unless you have to do a ridiculous amount of it. That goes for just about anything: it's fun until you have to do it too many times. Previously, what made the game palatable was the good mix between more mundane and more challenging content, but now the amount of mundane content you're forced to endure just to get basic, essential stuff like credits is offputting.

[Achromatic.]

10 minutes ago, widenose said:

Because there are plenty of interesting things to do outside of the core gameplay (trading, breeding, etc) but those ultimately require a steady stream of credits. But now, there isn't really a designated credit farm location like there was before, so anyone who doesn't have tons of credits saved up from before these changes gets effectively locked out of that content.

I don't mind having to do some farm missions here and there to get resources, since it's something to do. It doesn't get boring unless you have to do a ridiculous amount of it. That goes for just about anything: it's fun until you have to do it too many times. Previously, what made the game palatable was the good mix between more mundane and more challenging content, but now the amount of mundane content you're forced to endure just to get basic, essential stuff like credits is offputting.

Was it ever really challenging though? Enemies just got tankier and hit harder, aside from that you could use the same tactics you always did. 

They did a good job with AI for Nightwatch Grineer and Rathuum introduced enemies with unique skill-sets but things like that were never brought into the main game for some unknown reason. 

 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, pauli133 said:

I'm not sure how you get to a point where there's "nothing to do", but you still care about credits.

Maxing Primed mods and selling them.

Once you have every mod maxed including primed mods there's not much to do with Cores and Credits. You keep ~500 R5s and sell the rest for plat.

It's a great use of resources you would otherwise have no use for.

It doesn't matter much, but It might result in loss over striking even.

[Nilgreed]

2 hours ago, widenose said:

The problem is that there's a lot less stuff to actually do. It's not so much that content got removed, just that before, there was a decent amount of content that was both challenging and rewarding. Now, there is much less rewarding content. The overlap between "challenging" and "rewarding" seems to be nothing but sorties now.

Let's examine:

• Endless void missions: you no longer get prime parts, so not rewarding (i.e. no real reason to do)
• Dark sectors give terrible credits now
• LoR credit rewards got nerfed*, and most LoR arcanes are junk anyway
• Void fissures are beyond boring. Unlike some void missions like sabs which require you to actually search for caches, these consist of standing in one place shooting things.

So, when you take a game where 80%+ of the star chart is filler to begin with, and remove/nerf the few things that are actually interesting or challenging, you get a game where the daily routine is basically "sorties, forma, log out". Sorties are pretty much the last bastion of content that's worth playing, and you can only get the reward (both credit and seasonal reward) once a day.

[ ... ]

Me and all my "veteran" friends completly agree. Theres simply nothing left to do. (besides from mentioned LoR and sorties)
We predicted the so-called "Fissure-fatigue" (which occurs WAY faster than the "void fatigue"), the increased grind with the relics and traces, the pointless endless missions, and also the new prime=new relics method. Wasnt hard to guess to begin with.

The fissure changes, which will be revealed at tomorrows dev-stream simply wont be enough.
DE needs to add / bring back meaningful content for veterans.
Whoever was in charge of the Void 2.0 changes (and how they were implemented), and thought it would be a great idea -
caused massive damage to this game.

My naive hopes are up for the Tau system and War within - hopefully there will be challenging AND rewarding content again.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Lazarus-Fox

[blackheartstar_pc]

1 hour ago, Lazarus-Fox said:

DE needs to add / bring back meaningful content for veterans.
Whoever was in charge of the Void 2.0 changes (and how they were implemented), and thought it would be a great idea -
caused massive damage to this game.

So true it hurts... the game. I hate how there is nothing to do. I had taken the time to farm every prime frame up to Trinity through the old void. After catching up to the current list I started buying every Prime Access as they come out. Saryn, Vaubon, and Mag at this point. The new fissure system is a thorn in the side of having fun making ducats. I feel they hurt Prime Access sales with this update as I'm not buying Nekros knowing there is nothing really worthwhile to do with him. No high level team play that gives anything meaningful. DE fix this please or at least address that you see it tomorrow.

Edited July 22, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[VampirePirate]

I hate to say but, the way the game makes me feel now, it may be time for me to hang up my warframes in a closet and find something else to do.   I've been around for a long time. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by VampirePirate
post got screwed up

[(XBOX)SlohLane]

5 hours ago, pauli133 said:

I'm not sure how you get to a point where there's "nothing to do", but you still care about credits.

That's easy to answer. when there is nothing to do, most veteran players take to Breeding and Trading too fill the void..

Both in which Require lots and lots of credits and can easily be considered the Two most Credit expensive things to do in Warframe.

One could Argue Maxing Mods/PMods and building Arcanes is as well, but most veterans have long finished these tasks as well.

[widenose]

Ok, the comments DE made in the livestream show that they still don't quite get it.

Yes, it could get tedious if you didn't like long survivals and the reward you wanted was a C rot reward. But if you really hated it that much, you could just trade for it. DE's logic behind this requires you to completely ignore the fact that trading is a big part of the game. The new system was made under the false assumption that everyone hated the old system, which was simply not true.

In addition, if you make everything easier to get, then it's a lot less rewarding when you DO finally get the item you were working towards.

Here's how this sort of thing works:

1. The longer something takes to farm, the more of a chore it is considered.
2. If something is too easy to farm, then it's not rewarding to get.
3. If you make the actual process of farming it interesting, you can make it significantly harder/longer to farm without it feeling like a chore.

So the trick is finding a balance between #1 and #2, while maximizing #3. The problem is, #3 got significantly reduced with the new void system, so compared to the old system it's going to be extremely boring, unrewarding, or a combination of both. Personally, I think it's a combination, since the new void system is boring and the prices of many prime sets went down (e.g. TrinP went from ~180 to ~80).

 

Now, the real question is: how do we fix this?

I see no reason why the new system and old system couldn't work in tandem. The only issue is that void keys are no more, and I don't think anyone wants to have to re-farm them. So what about derelict missions? Those still use keys, have almost all the same mission types, and offer endless missions. Just drop a couple prime parts into derelict drop tables, so that we actually have something to do.

[Haxwell]

This is inevitable. When you have everything and ur at the max MR, the only thing left to do is either Fashion Frame, or just whatever you're feeling like. My suggestion, play some Fashion Frame, or take a break from WF until the next content update.

[AVEOX]

I took almost a year break, now I have lots of things to do.
Maybe that's what you need?

[Kubos]

On 22.7.2016 at 2:00 AM, widenose said:

• Endless void missions: you no longer get prime parts, so not rewarding (i.e. no real reason to do)

This ! U19 is the endlessmission-killer. Endgamekiller ? And now i make Def lvl30+... rewards : vitality, vitality, vitality. And the Problem is the same as always: Def against lvl 130... vitality... nice gamedesign. Stupid rnd-relict-killer-brain-afk-rushs, is this the future of warframe ?

[Nilgreed]

18 hours ago, Haxwell said:

This is inevitable. When you have everything and ur at the max MR, the only thing left to do is either Fashion Frame, or just whatever you're feeling like. My suggestion, play some Fashion Frame, or take a break from WF until the next content update.

You missed the point of challenging and rewarding content.

Before SotR, I could keep myself busy with anti-meta builds in endless missions while having a chance for valuable prime parts. (Plat for Fashion Frame - YAY!) If I do this now - I will get relics - and they dont feel rewarding to me, because im not interested in USING them AT ALL.
I dont want to nekros-farm traces first, then do nekros-fissure missions with random missiontypes on random tileset to have a chance for a specific part.

Fissures 2.0 look - better, but still avoid the actual problem. They got ridd of the dull mini-event - awesome! Thank you DE <3
If TWW reintroduces challenging and rewarding content that lasts longer than a 5 or 10 minute rush through tilesets - then I would call U19 successfull.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Lazarus-Fox

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, Lazarus-Fox said:

You missed the point of challenging and rewarding content.

Before SotR, I could keep myself busy with anti-meta builds in endless missions while having a chance for valuable prime parts. (Plat for Fashion Frame - YAY!) If I do this now - I will get relics - and they dont feel rewarding to me, because im not interested in USING them AT ALL.
I dont want to nekros-farm traces first, then do nekros-fissure missions with random missiontypes on random tileset to have a chance for a specific part.

Fissures 2.0 look - better, but still avoid the actual problem. They got rid off the dull mini-event - awesome! Thank you DE <3
If TWW reintroduces challenging and rewarding content that lasts longer than a 5 or 10 minute rush through tilesets - then I would call U19 successfull.

 

Basically This.

I would add my own personal theory crafting, bringing out the calculator, finding procs per second, avg bleed damage, team synergy and squeezing every point of damage or power I can get out of a new weapon, frame or build.

This is basically pointless now.  lvl 40... bleeeh Ignis.... zzzZZZzzzzz.

Even though I know I won't be able to farm 50-100 traces in a single run by Monday. I can't bring myself to bother making use of it. It's just boring.  The fissure rework is better but IMO it's still not good.

[blackheartstar_pc]

19 hours ago, Haxwell said:

This is inevitable.

Maybe in time? Not sure how true this is. Up to SotR I was highly motivated to play every single day for at least an hour or two and more often than not far more than that. After the update I played for two days and lost interest as I could not find anything to replace what they removed rendering the game pointless to play in a sense.

[widenose]

Come to think of it, they could quickly alleviate the issue to a small degree by introducing a system where rewards improve as the mission goes on. For example, rare resources could drop more frequently, or it could bias the tables towards the more rare rewards. Although there would need to actually be something worth farming in those areas to begin with.

[_Iye]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 3:54 AM, widenose said:

I see no reason why the new system and old system couldn't work in tandem. The only issue is that void keys are no more, and I don't think anyone wants to have to re-farm them. So what about derelict missions? Those still use keys, have almost all the same mission types, and offer endless missions. Just drop a couple prime parts into derelict drop tables, so that we actually have something to do.

Strongly Agree. Really and truly amazing to see such a simple but thoughtful suggestion to come up. They really can do that without much hassle I think and as far I have seen you seem to have a good grasp on presenting things so I suggest you make a thread on this topic and hope you will get a great response from us who still wanna build end game frame builds and jump in for 1-2 hours of survival and defense missions for eye dazzling PRIME REWARDS. All that ODS-ODD are now special for is farming relics, even you can get 4 relics in a 20 minutes ODS where ODD still gives you R5 Gold cores-bundle of 3 (sometimes Silver cores though) aside from the relic drops.

Hopefully DE will listen to us and make derelict a new (OLD) void for us.

Edited July 24, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[(XBOX)NecroEric420]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 10:34 PM, Lazarus-Fox said:

Me and all my "veteran" friends completly agree. Theres simply nothing left to do. (besides from mentioned LoR and sorties)
We predicted the so-called "Fissure-fatigue" (which occurs WAY faster than the "void fatigue"), the increased grind with the relics and traces, the pointless endless missions, and also the new prime=new relics method. Wasnt hard to guess to begin with.

The fissure changes, which will be revealed at tomorrows dev-stream simply wont be enough.
DE needs to add / bring back meaningful content for veterans.
Whoever was in charge of the Void 2.0 changes (and how they were implemented), and thought it would be a great idea -
caused massive damage to this game.

My naive hopes are up for the Tau system and War within - hopefully there will be challenging AND rewarding content again.

this is what im worried about. GOD DAMN. the good old days really are gone.. :(

[LuckyCharm]

>.> i dont suppose any of you people actually watched the newest devstream (Devstream 77).. they said they're changing up reward tables to give better relic drops.. and on top of that all the fissures are getting changed. Watch the stream... seriously. It's like mashing void into every fissure mission now to increase the difficulty. For the entire map. T4 Infested anyone? Or perhaps T4 level bursas? 

I'm a veteran too.. played since there were only 2 maps and void wasn't even released. This "fissure fatigue" isn't even half of what we used to get where xini was the begin all and end all of high level content. And more than 80 waves into defense.. you still were getting ammo drum mods as rewards. Maybe you all aught to actually look at the upcoming content and think "hey, that looks like a good change. But perhaps I'll suggest something new here on the forums" instead of complaining that there's nothing to do.

Go farm survival on  Lua for an hour or so. See if you can keep your head from being blown off by high level sentients while farming for vengeful revenant. At least you'll have something to try sell instead of farming the void. But hey, you might even get relics for the mission rewards, so you can keep up that "fissure fatigue"

[AzureTerra]

On 22/07/2016 at 10:00 AM, widenose said:

Endless void missions: you no longer get prime parts, so not rewarding (i.e. no real reason to do)

So because you not being "rewarded" every 5 minutes you don't like to play these missions anymore. That's a problem you have and not one with the game. Still a lot to do and really if there not a lot for you to do the stop and have a break

[-HitZ-]

Voice in the desert.