No DE, SotR was not "well received"

[BPNPC]

(Remaking an earlier thread. In retrospect, it was immature to say say that SotR killed Warframe. Nonetheless, almost a month after launch, there is ample evidence to support that SotR was poorly received by its players, and I believe its poor reception is not only worth discussing but also critical to the success of future updates.)

I was reading [DE]Danielle's comments about TWW being split into 4 parts (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/683713-the-war-within-now-a-tetralogy/#comment-7628294) when I came across this:

Quote

With Parts I and II out the door we can reflect on the lessons learned from these updates - mainly Specters of the Rail which brought some massive quality of life fixes and much needed overhauls to Warframe. These long anticipated and discussed features were so well received by you guys in the community we couldn’t help but mirror the excitement.

I was extremely surprised by this statement, because to me it seems the playerbase HATED SotR. The forums, in-game, and elsewhere are filled with complaints. SotR had some good parts to be sure, but it was swallowed by a sea of controversial changes such as (perceived) increased relic/trace grind, repetitiveness of new void (even post-fix), removal of endless runs, and removal of Draco. In fact, steamcharts data supports the claim that most players hated SotR:

Look at the HUGE drop-off following SotR. Increasing and decreasing player cycles are to be expected in Warframe, and major updates especially can draw players back in before they inevitably stop playing again. Often the surge in playerbase following major updates persists for months or even forever. For example, following U-18 the playerbase saw a large increase that persisted for several months, and following Inaros the playerbase saw a large increase for several weeks.

Like other updates, SotR drew in a huge amount of players (a record amount, even), but the SotR is notable at the speed and severity at which players stopped playing. Within ONE WEEK of SotR launching, playerbase had dropped to pre-update levels. Playerbase went from ~30k to ~60k before dropping down to ~30k again. In fact, in the last 30 days, Warframe actually saw a net decrease in playercount. This is unprecedented for a major release and by FAR the quickest drop-off in Warframe's 3-year long history. Even with the massive amount of hotfixes, the damage was already done: players were not playing SotR any more.

(Bugs at launch are expected by now, and I believe it's not the bugs that turned players away but the many design decisions stated earlier.)

What does it mean? It means that players hated U19, that they got sick of playing it after just a week, that SotR failed to retain players.

There are lessons to be learned from SotR, DE. Player numbers speak volumes more than feedback. Now is the time to reflect on badly-received design decisions made in SotR and how to make future updates better, not to delude yourselves into thinking that SotR was "well-received."

(Note that I am purely discussing TRENDS here. Yes, I understand that many Warframe players don't use Steam, and that the Warframe's playerbase is larger than shown in the chart. That's not the point. The point is the SIGNIFICANT DECREASE in playerbase following SotR, which must also be mirrored with non-Steam players.)

Edited August 6, 2016 by BPNPC

[Omega-Shadowblade]

The bugs and lack of lasting content were the portions that were not well received. The general changes were well recieved such as the star map design and kavats. Just because a change was liked and had an effect on the game, does not necessarily mean it keeps players around. I.e. new star chart is nice and all, but it is still only a star chart.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Omega-Shadowblade

[ensignvidiot]

I think this is a case of correlation =/= causation. 

 

There are always glaring issues with major updates. But I've enjoyed SotR, especially with the Void rework. 

[Kai_Shiba]

Can we stop using the steam charts as a source for the playerbase of Warframe PC? Please? It's not a valid source and loses complete credibility on a post on trying to prove something with it.

Also keep in mind, players are just waiting for War Within, or something new, quite frankly all we got are reworks of old systems. Oh and uh, cats.

Quote

The bugs and lack of lasting content were the portions that were not well received. The general changes were well recieved such as the star map design and kavats. Just because a change was liked and had an effect on the game, does not necessarily mean it keeps players around. I.e. new star chart is nice and all, but it is still only a star chart.

Also ^This

Edited August 6, 2016 by KJRenz

[BPNPC]

2 minutes ago, ensignvidiot said:

I think this is a case of correlation =/= causation. 

 

There are always glaring issues with major updates. But I've enjoyed SotR, especially with the Void rework. 

SotR caused the increase and subsequent decrease in playerbase. I'm not sure what you're implying, and I have a feeling you don't understand correlation/causation at all. Correlation=/=causation would be true if SotR drew in a huge number of players, but an external factor caused those same players to stop playing, say, a massive, long-lasting power outage in every densely populated area of the world that prevented players from logging onto Warframe. To the best of my knowledge, such a catastrophe has not occurred.

 

6 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

The bugs and lack of lasting content were the portions that were not well received. The general changes were well recieved such as the star map design and kavats. Just because a change was liked and had an effect on the game, does not necessarily mean it keeps players around. I.e. new star chart is nice and all, but it is still only a star chart.

SotR massively failed player expectations. You have a point in that updates do not necessarily mean content, but when player expectations fall so far short of reality, the company did something wrong.

[Kai_Shiba]

Just now, BPNPC said:

SotR massively failed player expectations.

Didn't know you spoke for everyone.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, BPNPC said:

 

SotR massively failed player expectations. You have a point in that updates do not necessarily mean content, but when player expectations fall so far short of reality, the company did something wrong.

Don't speak for the community as a whole please. That portion of the update was designed at rearranging and retuning old systems. For that it did it's job exactly as advertised. Thus seeing nothing else new, most people do as they always do, they wait for more content and do other stuff in the meantime.

[BPNPC]

4 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

Can we stop using the steam charts as a source for the playerbase of Warframe PC? Please? It's not a valid source and loses complete credibility on a post on trying to prove something with it.

It is an entirely valid source, and I already explained why in my first post. Even if a significant portion of WF players don't use steam, a sizable enough portion do that Steamchart trends mirror the overall playerbase. Again, I'm talking about TRENDS, not exact numbers.

2 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

Didn't know you spoke for everyone.

Look at the graph. When you go from 30k players to 60k players, that's a huge amount of hype. When you go from 60k players back to 30k players in a week, that's failed expectations.

[NightBlitz]

SotR was rushed, and they admitted it, besides the bugs which the worst of which have mainly been ironed out, complaints were mostly about things like the void rework (this is mostly from people that feel that primes shouldnt be gotten outside the void because the void is "dead" now, and players that say that endless is "dead" now.) as well as a few complaints about kavats being too grindy. some of these issues have been dealt with, others im sure they have plans for.

oh, and expect more salt than the dead sea when the players that dont actively keep track of updates learn that the TWW part is going to be even later. but atleast we get to get our hands on Titania before then

[Kai_Shiba]

8 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

It is an entirely valid source, and I already explained why in my first post. Even if a significant portion of WF players don't use steam, a sizable enough portion do that Steamchart trends mirror the overall playerbase. Again, I'm talking about TRENDS, not exact numbers.

If you're going to keep the Steam Chart up there, then your post has no credibility. Sorry

It's not a valid source, also sizable enough portion? How do you know that? You don't. What's the other non steam playerbase population? How big are those numbers compared to Steams? How far apart are the numbers? Do you know? No?

8 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

Look at the graph. When you go from 30k players to 60k players, that's a huge amount of hype. When you go from 60k players back to 30k players in a week, that's failed expectations.

Again, all the update really did was rework old systems to new systems. There have been a few new features, but players/vets already blew through it.

This does not mean it failed expectations, where did you pull that out of?

Edited August 6, 2016 by KJRenz

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 minute ago, BPNPC said:

 

Look at the graph. When you go from 30k players to 60k players, that's a huge amount of hype. When you go from 60k players back to 30k players in a week, that's failed expectations.

Seems common to me. That is just enough time for people to look around. In essence nothing really changed dramatically, no new quests to play and no new large systems to experiment with like focus. A week is a reasonable time for people to have gotten through with what was given then say "guess now I wait for the last part" and go back to waiting. What you are saying is essentially everyone hated the update. That's quite a jump in logic there.

[AZAG0TH]

SotR - Got my gf and I playing again after a year and a half away.  We like it.

[Xekrin]

15 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

What does it mean?

I'd like you to keep in mind, and something you omitted completely if only for completeness sake, is these are stats of steam players only.  DE would have the most accurate numbers on how many are playing, how long and how often.  This includes consoles, steam and non steam players.  

I'm not refuting your stats as its pretty obvious but also note that there are still more players overall than there were a year ago or two and three years ago.  Not to mention feedback, complaints and so on only provide a portion of the player's outlook on the game.  A vast majority of players don't even frequent the forums or even reddit for example.

You also can't easily monitor those who no longer play on steam but continue to play the non steam version or those who have both installed and play non steam more.  This is the second time I've seen someone use steam statistics to try and prove how warframe is doing overall and its simply not inclusive evidence of anything other than specific to steam.

[Vargras]

Spikes and drops like these happen with _every_ semi-big update. Every single one.

Please don't claim people disliked the update because the same thing happened with this update. It's nothing new, and hasn't been new for literal years.

[Mastikator2]

18 minutes ago, ensignvidiot said:

I think this is a case of correlation =/= causation. 

 

There are always glaring issues with major updates. But I've enjoyed SotR, especially with the Void rework. 

Hold on, correlation IS evidence of causation. It's not proof and there could be (and probably are) other factors that played a role but SotR is definitely a factor.

[cookieknife]

Everyone saying that steam doesn't show enough info to show decent data? who cares! it shows a VERY LARGE amount of warframe players. not saying i disagree or agree with this thread. but this data is definitely accurate and it's showing less people playing.. its only because the void rework took a big chunk of replayability out of the game. thats how it works 

when you take a big portion of the grind out of a grindy game

people are going to play less because theres less grind needed to do what the needed to do

thats just how it works

[cookieknife]

1 minute ago, Vargras said:

Spikes and drops like these happen with _every_ semi-big update. Every single one.

Please don't claim people disliked the update because the same thing happened with this update. It's nothing new, and hasn't been new for literal years.

dude look at U18 and Specters of the rail. big difference

[NativeKiller]

I mostly agree with the comments that talk about how the void rework and kavats (eventually) worked out .

 

(Personally, the bugs and the initial fissure system nearly killed the game for me until things were worked out)

 

BUT, remember that the credit nerf, oxium nerf happened while the D.E said that they wanted to "reduce the grind".

 

...Seems legit. /s

Edited August 6, 2016 by NativeKiller

[PoopManZ]

14 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

If you're going to keep the Steam Chart up there, then your post has no credibility. Sorry

It's not a valid source, also sizable enough portion? How do you know that? You don't. What's the other non steam playerbase population? How big are those numbers compared to Steams? How far apart are the numbers? Do you know? No?

Again, all the update really did was rework old systems to new systems. There have been a few new features, but players/vets already blew through it.

This does not mean it failed expectations, where did you pull that out of?

Arguing the validity of Steam to poll player activity is a misnomer since if there is a significant number of players it can be a representative trend. The only selection bias here would be not selecting those who do not prefer DRM or Steam to only the Warframe client. That would have no coorelation at all with this trend. We cant even analyze console players as they are not in the loop regardless. Steam pulls a signifigant portion of the PC playerbase that chooses their library to be on Steam. So it does have a significant chunk of the curve, especially offering packs and advertisement on steam on updates and during sales.

Although I think this trend is not simply due to SOTR but moreover the larger problem of Warframes of not being able to capture large amounts of people for standard MMO periods of time and poor new player retention, also with the increasing demand on DE to provide content at the cost of quality at release. The lack of locking in actually rewarding veterans over 3 years now is taking effect, as I discussed this in a feedback thread with the void missions.

Edited August 6, 2016 by PoopManZ

[Kaotyke]

We all knew SotR would NOT be content filled, and mostly changes with Starchart and Prime part acquisition...

Edited August 6, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[Crewell]

I just want something fresh. Perhaps it's the game getting old again, but it seems like forever since we had an update I cared about.

[BPNPC]

5 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Seems common to me. That is just enough time for people to look around. In essence nothing really changed dramatically, no new quests to play and no new large systems to experiment with like focus. A week is a reasonable time for people to have gotten through with what was given then say "guess now I wait for the last part" and go back to waiting. What you are saying is essentially everyone hated the update. That's quite a jump in logic there.

The thing is, people EXPECTED SotR to have content - playerbase doubled in the week leading up to SotR. What you described - "guess now I will wait for other stuff" - occurs for smaller updates, such as the Acolyte event or the Rathuum event, in which players play a bit and stopped. SotR drew in a record number of players, more than even the Inaros update, which was actually a content update. You can say that players shouldn't have expected content or that DE should've made it more clear there wasn't going to BE content, but players were massively let down. Also look at the controversial changes I already mentioned, e.g. removal of endless, relic/trace changes, etc, which has spawned countless threads, and the decreasing playerbase provides evidence that these changes were poorly-received.

@Others: Steamcharts is representative of the entire warframe population. Similar to how polling groups only poll a fraction of the total US population but still get accurate data regarding stuff like sociological changes, you only need a small, representative sample size to accurately estimate the entire population. You just don't understand simple statistics. 

[Kai_Shiba]

5 minutes ago, cookieknife said:

dude look at U18 and Specters of the rail. big difference

You're comparing a quest and a big huge content filled update, to a update that only reworked stuff and only brought a few new things and not enough content.

Edited August 6, 2016 by KJRenz

[NinthAria]

Most of it was reworking old content, which only stays new for so long. Also, "hate" is a strong word; just because there's a dip in player activity doesn't mean people hated it.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, BPNPC said:

The thing is, people EXPECTED SotR to have content - playerbase doubled in the week leading up to SotR. What you described - "guess now I will wait for other stuff" - occurs for smaller updates, such as the Acolyte event or the Rathuum event, in which players play a bit and stopped. SotR drew in a record number of players, more than even the Inaros update, which was actually a content update. You can say that players shouldn't have expected content or that DE should've made it more clear there wasn't going to BE content, but players were massively let down. Also look at the controversial changes I already mentioned, e.g. removal of endless, relic/trace changes, etc, which has spawned countless threads, and the decreasing playerbase provides evidence that these changes were poorly-received.

@Others: Steamcharts is representative of the entire warframe population. Similar to how polling groups only poll a fraction of the total US population but still get accurate data regarding stuff like sociological changes, you only need a small, representative sample size to accurately estimate the entire population. You just don't understand simple statistics. 

People wanted to see the new systems. They did. Whether they liked them or not is not at all shown by your graph. You are twisting the meaning of the data.