Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Burnthesteak87]

On 14/8/2016 at 4:59 AM, Madho said:

It doesn't give us a choice about what to do with our energy, but it forced us to use energy to sustain our shadows in order to maintain the damage reduction, which is vital for Nekros. I don't care about the duration on my Nekros anymore. Just change the stupid health decay to a timer, let us kill shadows with Soul Punch, and be done with it. I'm sick of this already. 

 

On 13/8/2016 at 7:03 PM, Gurpgork said:

The problem with resilience is compounded pretty severely by the health decay. They can't take as much damage as they need to as it is. It really doesn't help for them to additionally lose 3% of their maximum health every second. 

As I said earlier, the way to spice up a Warframe's gameplay is to give them a diverse toolkit, with abilities that help them in a wide variety of situations. Forcing Nekros to hammer the same key over and over again would only spice up his gameplay in an absolutely artificial manner, and does nothing to make his gameplay more interesting and dynamic. This kind of "gameplay" is exactly why the devs changed Desecrate to a mindless passive. 

 

I'm sorry.
I've been able to sustain 4 Sentient Fighters Shadows for 20 minutes without a problem.
You arguments and confidence are just based on a mass kneejerk reactions and refusal for a change.

Give it a real try.

The Health Decay gave a lot of Flow to the Nekros' playstyle.
You've to work to sustain your Shadows, the brain usage in Nekros gameplay is way higher than have ever been.
You want to cast skills and forget about them? That isn't valid anymore.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

I'm sorry.
I've been able to sustain 4 Sentient Fighters Shadows for 20 minutes without a problem.
You arguments and confidence are just based on a mass kneejerk reactions and refusal for a change.

I did. And it was terrible. I've lost a shadow against the exact same group of enemies in mere seconds because of this. You've only been able to sustain your Sentients because you're facing off mere lancers and MOAs. Match butchers against another 20 butchers and see the results.

2 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

You've to work to sustain your Shadows, the brain usage in Nekros gameplay is way higher than have ever been.
You want to cast skills and forget about them? That isn't anymore valid.

I invite you to try and pit 7 butchers against 13 others in the simulacrum, and see for yourself if you can hold on with just one cast. Remember to test it multiple times.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Guest
removed rude remark

[Tizodd]

54 minutes ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

<snip> You want to cast skills and forget about them? That isn't valid anymore.

First: That's never been valid for Nekros.  Shadows of the Dead had a duration before the update.  It was never a cast and forget about it ability.

Second: My suggestion was not for there to be no duration (even though DE did say that would be the case).  My suggestion was to simply bring back the old duration rather than having shadows (tanks with added aggro might I add) constantly bleeding out.

My entire point is: Shadows of the Dead got double nerfed for no reason.  The number of shadows is capped at 7; AND they're bleeding out from the moment you spawn them.  Shadows of the Dead has never been a game-breaking OP ability.  I don't see a reason to nerf it at all...much less twice in one shot.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

On 8/12/2016 at 6:53 PM, GodbladeZ said:

In the devstream they said they made the minions more powerfully to compensate for the lesser amount of them. My only really complaint is that they said that duration wouldnt be needed but it is. I feel they should remove the health loss over time and nekros would be pretty close to perfect for me.

They are sitting on the same stats.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

The Health Decay gave a lot of Flow to the Nekros' playstyle.

When I think of gameplay that flows, I think of Saryn or Banshee or Excalibur. Warframes who have four abilities with distinct purposes that all still work together, and make sense to use together. 

If you think pressing 4 and using up 100 energy and watching a painfully long cast time every 15-20 seconds is gameplay that flows, then I don't know what more to say to you. Because to me, it feels like a completely artificial way to inflate the number of keystrokes on SotD without any real benefit whatsoever. 

2 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

You want to cast skills and forget about them? That isn't anymore valid.

Fire and forget abilities are not, in of themselves, a bad thing. Abilities that play the game for you at the mere press of a button are the problem, and SotD has never been one of those abilities. In fact, some abilities should be fire and forget. Hell, we have Atlas, another summoner in Warframe, who has fire and forget summons. 

Have you ever played a summoner in a game like Diablo 3 or Grim Dawn or maybe even Skyrim? The summons themselves are fire and forget (most of them even have infinite duration), and then every other ability you have helps you support them. Instead of resummoning your minions over and over and over again, you're usually cursing and debuffing enemies, or casting healing spells, or doing something that would be useful even if you weren't fielding summons. That is gameplay that flows.

Spending all your energy continuously recasting SotD for the sole purpose of maintaining them is not fluid gameplay, it's not making Nekros more interesting or dynamic to play, and it's not really even increasing the brain power to play him. It's just giving him an energy sink for no reason and with no compensation. In fact, they also nerfed the possible number of minions and thus the total damage potential of the ability by more than 60%. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by Gurpgork

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

11 hours ago, Golum159 said:

Jes, but the mainproblem was that the people just stay on one place and spamm the 3 key. That is boring. I like the Change, but is didnt needet to be nerved. A better way it would be is to change the the dropchance of rare things with Nekros, not only mods and the other stuff. Sure it is a Game and the funny thing about that is to make his own way and farm by yourself. 

 

Sorry for my bad english. I hope you understand me some how. 

You speak English better than a lot of native speakers I see online. Regardless, you are right that his old way was a bit boring, but being locked in position while desecrating seemed like a worthy trade off for what the ability did. A nerf in desecrate's loot %chances and "desecrate time" also seem like a worthy trade off for being able to move and attack while it's active, but a lot of people learned to play with or around the old desecrate for 2+ years so all that seems to be noticed are the number nerfs. I don't have Nekros on my PC account so all I have to go by are videos. This may be better in the end, like Excalibur, but I'll have to wait and see. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I was on your side in the beginning then it turned into Dev bashing. 

Perhaps they overlooked that. I'm sure they'll adjust it but they have plenty of things on their plates so it was probably something minor they didn't think of.

[ashrah]

i have over 1k h game with nekros i find my sweet build... but seems desecrate is really bit slow...

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

7 hours ago, Koed said:

Am I mistaken or doesn't the skill still save/pool/remember the last 20 enemies? If so, you still have to worry. You cant kill a heavy and and an ancient healer and expect to save them longer than 10-20 seconds depending on the mission. I mean, I could easily take out 20 enemies comprised of a mix of crewmen, lancers and ospreys in 20 seconds time so I guess te QoL for you (not me) still has quite some limits?

Also, about team mates killing the units you wanted pre patch had a pretty simple solution - choose high damage single fire weapons like Bows, Snipers, shotguns and explosive weapons. The chances of me getting the last hit with my dread compared to something like a soma was pretty damn high :-)

According to what's been reported from testing, SotD prioritizes enemy 1. Group type 2. Level 3. Order killed. So your pool is made up of priority targets. In order for a summon to be replaced in your pool, it would be of an enemy with higher priority.

Or are you implying the pool has its priority reset at 20 kills? 

And as far as killing single targets, the how-to, wasn't the issue. The issue was that you needed to. Kill that ancient. Great. Enter next room full of weaklings and your syndicate procs and its gone. With the new priority system, the ancient will still be summoned. No need to race teammates to fix the recent pool.

My overall is that I love the idea of enemy priority. I'm confused as to what your position is tho. You indicated you're more so fond of the old vs the new but implied it still saves like the old. 

 

[Eldritchsqueaker]

I hope they do look at it, the problem with desecrate is it does nothing but generate loot and they made it inferior to other options that do more on top of that. The shadows of the dead changes are a big slap in the face after what they said they'd do especially.

[bl4ckhunter]

5 hours ago, F4talFr4me said:

Indeed the took a huge sh*t on desecrate because of greed alone. they dont want that skill working as it should. next they attack hydroids augment "pilfering swarm" and call it a "rework". such scumbag tactics.

already done that ages ago.

[achromos]

Dear DE, 

     Can we go one step farther with the QoL of Nekros's SotD?

-SotD casting cost reduced by 5% per active shadow. 

 

     Most builds that focus on the SoS augment usually have at best 100-135 energy per casting.  This can easily run most Nekros's dry just summoning them once while trying to maintain desecration without Despoil.

I've found that having that augment in addition to equilibrium is almost mandatory to function as the casting costs are quite high even with Zenurik and Arcane Energize.

Without that I really think that Nekros is a bit too energy hungry for newer players as that has been a complaint I've heard.

Arcane Energize is much too expensive for someone Especially newer players who aren't geared to the teeth to get on a whim especially starting out.  The rarity and price usually going from 3000p if you are lucky to 5000p means that in most cases seeing someone with a full set is like seeing a unicorn.

 

 

[KingFar]

I made a post on Reddit the other day asking what everybody thought here it is if you guys want to sort though it, and like me almost everyone hates the health decay or thinks the shadows are a little too weak:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4xmmdx/now_that_the_dust_has_settled_a_bit_whats_your/?sort=confidence

[Guest]

I hope they change the health decay.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Guest

[MutantPoptart]

 

Let me start by saying I am a pretty avid Nekros player and have played for a few thousand hours in total. With that said let me tell you that desecrate is worthless now. I have given the new changes a go and their fair shake and have noticed a dramatic reduction in loot. Given that corpses barely hang around, this whole 1 second delay between desecrating 1 at a time and still no guarantee to loot means it is simply a waste now since that is a function that Nekros was unique in. Warframe did not need Nekros to be a DPS frame, there are enough of those already.

I understand the need to make him a bit more mobile while desecrating, which I am for. However with only being able to desecrate 1 corpse at a time it makes it not worth using, especially against Infested who disappear within a couple seconds most of the time. If you want to make it 10 energy per corpse, fine, but get rid of this stupid 1 corpse at a time idea. Or at the very least, make the 1 second delay affected by Natural Talent or something.

And with that, venting session over. Would love to see the community get together on this one. I usually don't gripe about things being "nerfed" but this one is just senseless and removes Nekros's 1 unique use that set him apart from other frames.

Edited August 16, 2016 by theclinton
removed unnecessary comment

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Desecrate is an unusual ability in that it only effects loot and does nothing else, it doesn't even produce health orbs as reliably anymore now. They really ought to expand it a bit.

[artemisfortune]

Ran him on akkad the other day, and then again on the Uranus survival which I can't remember the name of (Maybe starts of an H?) and still got tons of resources, health orbs, energy orbs, and mods.

Less effective, yes, but certainly not worthless and not ineffective enough to make him not useful in that regard.

Edited August 16, 2016 by JSharpie

[JMP3]

2 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Desecrate is an unusual ability in that it only effects loot and does nothing else, it doesn't even produce health orbs as reliably anymore now. They really ought to expand it a bit.

My understanding is that health orbs have been sort of added to a corpse's loot table, so if you get a health orb, that's the extra loot, and if you get a resource, you won't get a health orb.  Ran several 40 minute void survivals with a Shield of Shadows Nekros friend, and there was an excess amount of health orbs with Desecrate constantly up

[Eldritchsqueaker]

2 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

Ran him on akkad the other day, and then again on the Uranus survival which I can't remember the name of (Maybe starts of an H?) and still got tons of resources, health orbs, energy orbs, and mods.

Less effective, yes, but certainly not worthless and not ineffective enough to make him not useful in that regard.

It's still half a skill, like Ivara's prowl with only the pickpocketing and only against bodies.

 

Just now, JMP3 said:

My understanding is that health orbs have been sort of added to a corpse's loot table, so if you get a health orb, that's the extra loot, and if you get a resource, you won't get a health orb.  Ran several 40 minute void survivals with a Shield of Shadows Nekros friend, and there was an excess amount of health orbs with Desecrate constantly up

Which is still a downgrade is the problem, also half a skill, etc..

[artemisfortune]

57 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

It's still half a skill, like Ivara's prowl with only the pickpocketing and only against bodies.

 

Which is still a downgrade is the problem, also half a skill, etc..

Which is subjective, it isn't the red carpet maker it was before, but it certainly isn't half a skill.

[JMP3]

4 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

It's still half a skill, like Ivara's prowl with only the pickpocketing and only against bodies.

 

Which is still a downgrade is the problem, also half a skill, etc..

Half a skill?  Not sure what you mean.  And I think the health orbs is a fair compensation for making Desecrate a toggleable ability.

Oh, and I should mention that my friend was also using the Despoil augment and therefore using up health orbs both to just replenish his HP and utilize the health conversion mod

Edited August 16, 2016 by JMP3

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, JMP3 said:

Half a skill?  Not sure what you mean.  And I think the health orbs is a fair compensation for making Desecrate a toggleable ability.

 

1 minute ago, JSharpie said:

Which is subjective, it isn't the red carpet maker it was before, but it certainly isn't half a skill.

I don't feel it's subjective when it almost literally does half of what others do- not to mention it still burns energy when it does nothing. 

[JMP3]

6 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

 

I don't feel it's subjective when it almost literally does half of what others do- not to mention it still burns energy when it does nothing. 

What "others"?  The only ability to compare it to would be Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm with the Pilfering Swarm augment.  And don't *all* toggleable abilities constantly drain energy even when not really doing anything?  That's just how those abilities work.  World on Fire, Peacemaker, Effigy, Exalted Blade, Hysteria, Sandstorm, Undertow....am I missing any?

Edited August 16, 2016 by JMP3

[xXDeadsinxX]

It's actually way better now, it doesn't drop as much health orbs but that's fine. With it being a toggle, you finally get to play the game instead of stopping in a mission and pressing 3 constantly.   I honestly don't know why people hate it....

[Minningar]

13 minutes ago, JMP3 said:

What "others"?  The only ability to compare it to would be Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm with the Pilfering Swarm augment.  And don't *all* toggleable abilities constantly drain energy even when not really doing anything?  That's just how those abilities work.  World on Fire, Peacemaker, Effigy, Exalted Blade, Hysteria, Sandstorm, Undertow....am I missing any?

If no corses nearby Nekros' Desecrate won't consume energy/health, because there's nothing to desecrate : it works like Equinox' Pacify & Provoke, drain of energy is for each enemy/ power used by warframes. Also, Nekros consumption of health/mana is manageable with power efficiency & duration mods. The one thing which makes Desecrate isn't efficient comparing with old Desecrate is desecrated corpse disappears from the ground and you can't desecrate it anymore like it was a long ago when you could desecrate one mob 2 or 3 times till its corpse disappeared forever.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Dimanches