Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[ograzzt]

1 hour ago, Ceryk said:

I'm guessing that some people don't understand that desecrating corpses is basically guaranteed now. Drop rate of orbs was reduced to compensate for the fact that you don't have to cast it 3 or 4 times in a row and still fail to desecrate everything on the battlefield. I use Despoil and I still have Health Orbs littering the floor when I play Nekros.

Oh, and as for the OP's comment about Infested... Infested disappear visually quickly, they do not actually disappear quickly and are still available to be desecrated as long as any other corpse in the game.

Completely wrong about both "guaranteed desecrate" and infested parts. No wonder people protect these changes, most of them have no idea how it worked in the first place.

[Variatas]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

I think the best thing they could have done with Desecrate is to just get freaking rid of it. It adds nothing of value to his kit as a whole (other than cheating the energy economy, which every Warframe benefits from equally), minions can't use the pickups, it does very little to affect a mission as a whole, and it contributes to our massive resource creep problem. 

I can't agree with this more.  The "extra loot" abilities don't really add anything good to the game.  Many of the things you'd want to get more of aren't available to desecrate (Void Traces, Relics, etc.) and the way that costs have inflated just makes them required to get resources in any reasonable time frame.  

[(PSN)Double991]

Overall Desecrate is less effective at getting loot and Shadows are less effective at wide area crowd control. The toggle was the only good thing to come of this.

Edited August 16, 2016 by (PS4)Double991

[armedpoop]

3 minutes ago, ograzzt said:

Completely wrong about both "guaranteed desecrate" and infested parts. No wonder people protect these changes, most of them have no idea how it worked in the first place.

I looked at the 1st page and completely missed that post. This whole "people not really knowing an ability's  mechanics and talking about balancing it" is something ive been noticing alot more around these forums lately, its pretty insulting to say the least. 

 

Im not faulting somebody for not knowing, but if you want to talk about balance one way or the other, at least put in some time to know what you are talking about. Its pretty embarrassing when thats just as simple as reading over a page on the wiki. The wiki even gives you the specific timers of each faction's corpse despawn rate.

[Retequizzle]

7 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

I feel like you and many others are missing the point- this isn't about arguing that the toggle isn't a good thing, at least I'm not arguing that, it just needs to be sped up and have its drop chances pushed back up again.

...why?  So you can hurry up and wait for the next big thing to drop that may or may not require the resources you farmed?  Give me a break.

Even without Nekros/Hydroid/Lootframe-I-Am-Probably-Forgetting-Here, how are resource drop rates too low?  I find it genuinely hard to believe that people are continuously running out of materials for crafting plates, new weapons, new items, etc.  If you were making arguments for enemy-specific blueprints to drop then sure, whatever.  Not once throughout the course of the discussion has anyone clarified what "resources" are so valuable for Nekros to be required to farm to begin with.  We can hit the hot-button ones if you'd like:

Nano Spores/Orokin Cells - Saturn Survival, I forget which one is good for it now but before, it was Cassini.  Polymer Bundle - pretty much anywhere really, somehow I have 4 mil of it and I don't remember how I got it.  Oxium - self-explanatory, Oxium Osprey on mid-level Corpus missions or go do Void, since it drops from containers occasionally there.  Did I miss anything?

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, Retequizzle said:

...why?  So you can hurry up and wait for the next big thing to drop that may or may not require the resources you farmed?  Give me a break.

Even without Nekros/Hydroid/Lootframe-I-Am-Probably-Forgetting-Here, how are resource drop rates too low?  I find it genuinely hard to believe that people are continuously running out of materials for crafting plates, new weapons, new items, etc.  If you were making arguments for enemy-specific blueprints to drop then sure, whatever.  Not once throughout the course of the discussion has anyone clarified what "resources" are so valuable for Nekros to be required to farm to begin with.  We can hit the hot-button ones if you'd like:

Nano Spores/Orokin Cells - Saturn Survival, I forget which one is good for it now but before, it was Cassini.  Polymer Bundle - pretty much anywhere really, somehow I have 4 mil of it and I don't remember how I got it.  Oxium - self-explanatory, Oxium Osprey on mid-level Corpus missions or go do Void, since it drops from containers occasionally there.  Did I miss anything?

The issue is that he's using a whole skill for this, if they're not going to push the drop rate up they should at least add another effect, the rework just felt really incomplete and only served to make Nekros' role murkier. 

[armedpoop]

5 minutes ago, Retequizzle said:

...why?  So you can hurry up and wait for the next big thing to drop that may or may not require the resources you farmed?  Give me a break.

Even without Nekros/Hydroid/Lootframe-I-Am-Probably-Forgetting-Here, how are resource drop rates too low?  I find it genuinely hard to believe that people are continuously running out of materials for crafting plates, new weapons, new items, etc.  If you were making arguments for enemy-specific blueprints to drop then sure, whatever.  Not once throughout the course of the discussion has anyone clarified what "resources" are so valuable for Nekros to be required to farm to begin with.  We can hit the hot-button ones if you'd like:

Nano Spores/Orokin Cells - Saturn Survival, I forget which one is good for it now but before, it was Cassini.  Polymer Bundle - pretty much anywhere really, somehow I have 4 mil of it and I don't remember how I got it.  Oxium - self-explanatory, Oxium Osprey on mid-level Corpus missions or go do Void, since it drops from containers occasionally there.  Did I miss anything?

Are...are you serious? Im lost as to how you can really think this makes any amount of sense. 

 

What about helping out a lowbie? 

What about not wanting to waste time getting resources if you dont want to?

Why would prefer people waste time if they dont need to?

 

I thought the purpose of increased drops was for efficient farming as well as additional chances of getting that rare mod drop? Its far more efficient to spend your time in a meaningful way, and nekros helped out with that alot, a bit less so now, but whats so bad about efficient farming exactly? 

Desecrate works for more than just resources. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by armedpoop

[Hiiamwilliam]

I'm aware some of my feels have been stated, but here goes anyway. Hope I'm not late or anything.

Nekros is the only frame I felt obligated to have two separated builds, one being Desecrate specific (range) and the other Sotd specific (duration and power), because both abilities are useful in their own way. Also I felt I couldn't have a good Sotd in Desecrate build and vice-versa, due to build stats and 3-spam. ^{Also Terrify wasn't really good in both builds}

With the rework, I experimented a build with Desecrate and Sotd having both good -not best, good- stats, because since I don't need to spam 3 anymore, I thought I could actually play Nekros. I tried making this new build based on my old Sotd build.

Sotd: 

- Health decay: because of my old Sotd build, I actually didn't feel much the health decay, it felt manageable most of the time. 

What I think its not manageable is the energy cost to maintain shadows' good health and use Desecrate without Despoil. It's bad that I have to:

1. Spend full energy cost to heal both 95% decay and 5% decay; 
2. Use an augment because of need, not because I want to mod my frame in a different way. I know that I have to learn to toggle Desecrate off when running low on energy, but this build was thought on the idea of having both usable abilities ( energy I get from Desecrate I'll use to supply Sotd).

  My suggestion is to lower energy cost when:

• Healing shadows (if the health decay remains) or
• Summoning shadows IF there are shadows alive ( summoning 2 shadows when there are 5 alive). 

  All I could think is that the Sotd cost would diminish for an average shadows' health %. Example: if average health% is higher than 80%, Sotd's energy cost is reduced by 40%. If average health% is between 50% and 80%, Sotd's energy cost is reduced by 30%. If average health % is less than 50% probably majority of shadows are about to die.Dunno.

- A bit more of damage multiplier is always nice. Right now, the shadows will die more sooner than later and without dealing much damage ( if they aren't heavy units);

- More heavy units is really nice. But (at max) one Eximus per 7 shadows please? I don't mind the lack of support units though;

- Make "normal units" shadows not seek cover, it's a less common issue but still present. I brought them from afterlife to pew-pew;

Desecrate:

- THANKS no more arthritis. 3-spam was one of the reasons for me to stop playing Nekros.

 

Overall I think it's a step closer to making Nekros a more engaging and fun frame to play, but we do need some tweaks.

[Retequizzle]

Just now, armedpoop said:

Are...are you serious? Im lost as to how you can really think this makes any amount of sense. 

 

What about helping out a lowbie? 

What about not wanting to waste time getting resources if you dont want to?

Why would prefer people waste time if they dont need to?

 

I thought the purpose of increased drops was for efficient farming? Its far more efficient to spend your time in a meaningful way, and nekros helped out with that alot, a bit less so now, but whats so bad about efficient farming exactly? 

There's a difference to "efficient farming", being lazy, and power-grinding players who have no idea what they're doing to begin with.  Efficient farming is what you do when you need x amount of an item and set out a method for yourself to get it, which is great.  You do you on that.  The latter two points are pretty much a really bad crutch for an argument though - since all it does is feed new players higher-tier gear so they can go into missions when they have no idea what they're doing to begin with.  This, in turn, does nothing for the overall community except contribute to the mentality of entitlement that the community seems to get any time something is "taken away" or changed, a la this thread.  

That is not to say the OP didn't clearly state his points and make a solid argument, but in terms of Desecrate being made "worthless", it just happens to an argument I disagree with because it's missing the overarching point of "Why is this an ability to begin with?". The only time you can make an argument for it in terms of making a mission playable would be a Survival, and as it is there's plenty of life support to go around, regardless of whether you bring a Nekros or not.

[Retequizzle]

14 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

The issue is that he's using a whole skill for this, if they're not going to push the drop rate up they should at least add another effect, the rework just felt really incomplete and only served to make Nekros' role murkier. 

I can respect that to a certain degree, but as I mentioned before (I think it'll merge my previous post with this one but I'm not sure), it misses the point of Desecrate even being an ability to begin with.  I agree they should alter Desecrate's function as a whole to make it more "mission-friendly" and not just "future friendly", for lack of a better term.  It does nothing for the mission itself barring one game mode, which isn't enough of a justification to keep it as a valid ability IMO.

[armedpoop]

1 minute ago, Retequizzle said:

There's a difference to "efficient farming", being lazy, and power-grinding players who have no idea what they're doing to begin with.  Efficient farming is what you do when you need x amount of an item and set out a method for yourself to get it, which is great.  You do you on that.  The latter two points are pretty much a really bad crutch for an argument though - since all it does is feed new players higher-tier gear so they can go into missions when they have no idea what they're doing to begin with.  This, in turn, does nothing for the overall community except contribute to the mentality of entitlement that the community seems to get any time something is "taken away" or changed, a la this thread.  

That is not to say the OP didn't clearly state his points and make a solid argument, but in terms of Desecrate being made "worthless", it just happens to an argument I disagree with because it's missing the overarching point of "Why is this an ability to begin with?". The only time you can make an argument for it in terms of making a mission playable would be a Survival, and as it is there's plenty of life support to go around, regardless of whether you bring a Nekros or not.

Fair enough on the new player point, however I disagree with your reasoning for the feeling of entitlement. I think that comes from people just not liking change in general, thats compounded by the fact that Desecrate is objectively worse than it was previously. (though personally I like new desecrate, but im saying this as a MR22 who has pretty much everything and doesnt really have a use for it outside of survival)

I couldnt tell you why the ability exists in the 1st place, (i know you werent asking me) but I know that its a godsend of an ability in a game thats all about the grind, and anything that lessens the grind directly is going to make people get attached to it. 

[Eostara]

Sometimes I think they should nerf desecrate somewhat more, make it his passive, then give him a new third ability that is more fun. Especially since it became a toggle - I constantly have it on now as opposed to only occasionally desecrating before (depending on what build I was using), so it just doesn't feel like a "skill".

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, Serien5 said:

Sometimes I think they should nerf desecrate somewhat more, make it his passive, then give him a new third ability that is more fun. Especially since it became a toggle - I constantly have it on now as opposed to only occasionally desecrating before (depending on what build I was using), so it just doesn't feel like a "skill".

Yeah this is another thing I've mentioned, it's just kind of there. 

[Matt89Connor]

if you have problem with the new desecrate test a build with despoil equilibrium and renjuvenation, a power always active and free :) then tell me if is unseful

[V45H]

the desecrations speed up with each successive desecrate and is increased by power strength no?

[armedpoop]

1 minute ago, V45H said:

the desecrations speed up with each successive desecrate and is increased by power strength no?

No, they dont. Power str doesnt affect desecrate one way or the other, and its a 2 second delay for the 1st corpse, then successive ones have a 1 second delay between corpses. 

[Marshall]

Loot is a very sensitive topic to Digital Extremes since its frequency determines how much their customers a.k.a. players may want to purchase instead of farming. Therefore they saw a big opportunity to nerf Nekros' Desecrate after promising to make his gameplay more fun. So, yes, you can focus on different things now while playing Nekros, plus DE increased the amount of grind at the same time and in their own interest.

[Retequizzle]

3 minutes ago, Matt89Connor said:

if you have problem with the new desecrate test a build with despoil equilibrium and renjuvenation, a power always active and free :) then tell me if is unseful

That doesn't really do much to really discuss the necessity of Desecrate to begin with, but Equilibrium is kind of unnecessary since you're using health for Desecrate at that point, and you'd be topped off on energy regardless since you're no longer using Desecrate as an energy ability but rather, a health ability.  

Try Despoil + Health Conversion if you want something that''ll keep you alive longer and feed into itself for utility.  Desecrate enemies for health, health gives you armor, drain health based off of Despoil to keep a constant stack of 3x Health Conversion, which I believe is something like an additional 1350 armor.

[Marshall]

13 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Yeah this is another thing I've mentioned, it's just kind of there. 

But then you should complain about every other toggle ability too. And we have lots of them!

[Matt89Connor]

DE pls reduce  the decay or give to the uindeads more time for battle, we have to use 4 every 20 sec and sacrifice more slot for duration mods, pls, it' 7 days i speak in the forum, give us an help

[Retequizzle]

6 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

No, they dont. Power str doesnt affect desecrate one way or the other, and its a 2 second delay for the 1st corpse, then successive ones have a 1 second delay between corpses. 

If nothing else, it makes no sense that Duration mods don't impact this time either positively or negatively but can affect the health decay for Shadows of the Dead, which is simply recastable as it is.

[DerkmeisterPrime]

DE you should nerf the hell out of the hp decay, you guys said you would make it so you don'T have duration, you kinda lied to us. You just made it so we can't see the duration now (in a way). The amount of max Shadows should be 10. Some people hate that they can't chose what they want spawned, so maybe what you guys should do is the Quiver treatment like, (Most recently killed), (Tankiest), and (Support). I appreciate the desecrate rework, it's just you killed the drop chance. I understand that you guys nerfed the Hp orb drop but why the item drop to that degree?  

[-CM-Hekovashi]

Just now, Retequizzle said:

If nothing else, it makes no sense that Duration mods don't impact this time either positively or negatively but can affect the health decay for Shadows of the Dead, which is simply recastable as it is.

 According to DE there shouldn't be any hp decay and no duration in SotD AT ALL. You should just cast them and they should live untill they got killed, without any duration integrated.

Old shadows-they get damaged by enermy, they take damage instead of you with aug.

New SotD-they got damaged by enemy, they got damaged by damage mitigation with aug and they constantly lose hp on top of that.

They less durable, die faster. You may say-"just heal them up", but again-it cost full 100 energy, while previously you can summon 14-20 new shadows for same energy cost, but now you just refill hp of 7.

Edited August 16, 2016 by -CM-Hekovashi

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

I'm not sure you realize just by how much Desecrate was nerfed. My guess is that the new Desecrate gives around ~30% more loot. The old Desecrate gave around ~75% more loot. That's a massive nerf! It's the combination of not being able to try desecrating the same body multiple times + the desecrate speed being so low that a lot of bodies disappear before you even get a chance to desecrate them.

Yes, you can play Necros now instead of just standing around spamming "3". The problem is that now he gives so little additional loot that there is not much point in playing him at all.

Tested yesterday, my Hydroid seems to produce more loots than my Nekros for Infested survival. I feel Desecrate rate is too slow for infested.

1 hour ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Not to mention how they nerfed his ult, but that's a topic for another thread. Honestly I'm fine with the toggle, they ought to speed it up and make it do a bit more though.

I hope that Desecrate would be like Banshee's Silence, affecting a group of corpses instead of one by one. Too slow to be effective for horde of infested and probably inefficient in term of implementation code.

2 hours ago, Ceryk said:

I'm guessing that some people don't understand that desecrating corpses is basically guaranteed now. Drop rate of orbs was reduced to compensate for the fact that you don't have to cast it 3 or 4 times in a row and still fail to desecrate everything on the battlefield. I use Despoil and I still have Health Orbs littering the floor when I play Nekros.

Oh, and as for the OP's comment about Infested... Infested disappear visually quickly, they do not actually disappear quickly and are still available to be desecrated as long as any other corpse in the game.

1 hour ago, ograzzt said:

Completely wrong about both "guaranteed desecrate" and infested parts. No wonder people protect these changes, most of them have no idea how it worked in the first place.

Can I know where did you get your information from? I hate it when people spread false/inaccurate information with too much confident. Please cite your source so we can reference it, maybe your source is more reliable and accurate than mine.

Nekros emits an aura of dark power that affects every corpse within a radius of 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters, consuming the corpses and granting a 22.5% / 32% / 42.5% / 54% chance to roll the corpse's drop table again to produce additional loot. After a 2-second delay on the first corpse within range, corpses are consumed one at a time in random order, with subsequent corpses taking 1 second of delay between consumptions.

• Grineer and Corpus' corpses will disintegrate in 15 seconds.

• Infested corpses and Avalanched enemies will disintegrate in 5 seconds.

• Corpses from enemies affected with Molecular Prime and Channeling will disintegrate in 3 seconds.
• Corpses from enemies affected with Miasma will disintegrate within a second.
• Enemies that are instantly destroyed like ospreys cannot be desecrated.

Source: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Desecrate

1 hour ago, Variatas said:

I can't agree with this more.  The "extra loot" abilities don't really add anything good to the game.  Many of the things you'd want to get more of aren't available to desecrate (Void Traces, Relics, etc.) and the way that costs have inflated just makes them required to get resources in any reasonable time frame.  

54 minutes ago, Retequizzle said:

...why?  So you can hurry up and wait for the next big thing to drop that may or may not require the resources you farmed?  Give me a break.

Even without Nekros/Hydroid/Lootframe-I-Am-Probably-Forgetting-Here, how are resource drop rates too low?  I find it genuinely hard to believe that people are continuously running out of materials for crafting plates, new weapons, new items, etc.  If you were making arguments for enemy-specific blueprints to drop then sure, whatever.  Not once throughout the course of the discussion has anyone clarified what "resources" are so valuable for Nekros to be required to farm to begin with.  We can hit the hot-button ones if you'd like:

Nano Spores/Orokin Cells - Saturn Survival, I forget which one is good for it now but before, it was Cassini.  Polymer Bundle - pretty much anywhere really, somehow I have 4 mil of it and I don't remember how I got it.  Oxium - self-explanatory, Oxium Osprey on mid-level Corpus missions or go do Void, since it drops from containers occasionally there.  Did I miss anything?

49 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Are...are you serious? Im lost as to how you can really think this makes any amount of sense. 

 

What about helping out a lowbie? 

What about not wanting to waste time getting resources if you dont want to?

Why would prefer people waste time if they dont need to?

 

I thought the purpose of increased drops was for efficient farming as well as additional chances of getting that rare mod drop? Its far more efficient to spend your time in a meaningful way, and nekros helped out with that alot, a bit less so now, but whats so bad about efficient farming exactly? 

Desecrate works for more than just resources. 

Not everyone got plenty of time to farm for resources normally. Quite a number of players wanted to farm for Oxiums, Orokin Cells, Neurodes, Neural Sensors and mods(Firestorm, Rage, Berserker). Containers do seems to have slightly higher chance(not high enough for the effort and time spent) of giving rare resources, but I have pissed lot of players waiting for extraction while I break containers, open lockers and pick up loots on the floor.

[Ceryk]

1 hour ago, ograzzt said:

Completely wrong about both "guaranteed desecrate" and infested parts. No wonder people protect these changes, most of them have no idea how it worked in the first place.

I'll admit I was wrong about the Infested issue. But I am not wrong about guaranteed desecration. I am alt tabbed out of the game in the middle of a mission playing Nekros I have not seen one single corpse within range fail to desecrate and I can hear all the corpses behind me going off in rapid succession. And I don't care if you believe me or not. This is pulled directly from the Wiki: 

Nekros emits an aura of dark power that affects every corpse within a radius of 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters, consuming the corpses and granting a 22.5% / 32% / 42.5% / 54% chance to roll the corpse's drop table again to produce additional loot. After a 2-second delay on the first corpse within range, corpses are consumed one at a time in random order, with subsequent corpses taking 1 second of delay between consumptions.

Seeing a distinct lack of any mention of "Chance to Desecrate" . Where or not you get loot out of it is a completely different issue, the corpses themselves are guaranteed to desecrate as long as they are in range and their decay timer hasn't expired before the ability gets to them. For the most part, it balances out because before it wasn't uncommon to hit the button 2 or 3 times because half the corpses refused to desecrate.

At one point in this mission, I intentionally didn't pick anything up for several minutes. At least 10 mods, 25+ health orbs, ammo and credits laying around like rocks in a gravel driveway, more than enough LS modules to top me off and have some to spare. I don't pay attention to resources unless I'm farming rares, so I can't comment on that. But I notice no significant drop in loot over the old system, just a whole lot less spamming and a whole lot more shooting.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Ceryk