Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[armedpoop]

6 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

I'll admit I was wrong about the Infested issue. But I am not wrong about guaranteed desecration. I am alt tabbed out of the game in the middle of a mission playing Nekros I have not seen one single corpse within range fail to desecrate and I can hear all the corpses behind me going off in rapid succession. And I don't care if you believe me or not. This is pulled directly from the Wiki: 

Nekros emits an aura of dark power that affects every corpse within a radius of 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 meters, consuming the corpses and granting a 22.5% / 32% / 42.5% / 54% chance to roll the corpse's drop table again to produce additional loot. After a 2-second delay on the first corpse within range, corpses are consumed one at a time in random order, with subsequent corpses taking 1 second of delay between consumptions.

Seeing a distinct lack of any mention of "Chance to desecrate" . Where or not you get loot out of it is a completely different issue, the corpses themselves are guaranteed to desecrate as long as they are in range and their decay timer hasn't expired before the ability gets to them. For the most part, it balances out because before it wasn't uncommon to hit the button 2 or 3 times because half the corpses refused to desecrate. At one point in this mission, I intentionally didn't pick anything up for several minutes. At least 10 mods, 25+ health orbs, ammo and credits laying around like rocks in a gravel driveway, more than enough LS modules to top me off and have some to spare. I don't pay attention to resources unless I'm farming rares, so I can't comment on that. But I notice no significant drop in loot over the old system.

Literally right there in your post, you copied this:

consuming the corpses and granting a 22.5% / 32% / 42.5% / 54% chance to roll the corpse's drop table again to produce additional loot

 

The chance is right there, just because you Desecrate a corpse, it doesnt mean that you got your loot roll from it. Old Desecrate was able to keep trying until the corpse spit something out, or disintegrated. Now you get one chance due to the fact that bodies get desecrated regardless of extra loot or not. 

I think you got a bit too stuck on the wording?

Edited August 16, 2016 by armedpoop

[(PSN)salovel1991]

3 hours ago, JMP3 said:

What "others"?  The only ability to compare it to would be Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm with the Pilfering Swarm augment.  And don't *all* toggleable abilities constantly drain energy even when not really doing anything?  That's just how those abilities work.  World on Fire, Peacemaker, Effigy, Exalted Blade, Hysteria, Sandstorm, Undertow....am I missing any?

Except it works like Equinox's Pacify and provoke. They both don't drain as long as the effect isn't working but one is guaranteed to work the other is not. Meaning when enemies aren't in range the ability consumes nothing because there is nothing for the ability to work on. Ore gaze 50% AoE, Atlas. Prowl 100% per enemy, Ivara. Granted they do have slight drawbacks but they're still guaranteed to do their abilities job. And the augments can be removed from Atlas and Hydroid. This is an ability that we cannot not remove or change how it works in any fashion. Nekros was already a less used frame than Atlas, as fas as gas as I've seen,  so let's give Nekros the same drop chance and punish people by taking their health/energy if they fail. Oh, and before you quote me saying Atlas has only a 50% chance at loot, yes but his ability still does the job that it is meant to do. Which is stopping enemies by turning them to stone. I'm not saying there should be no draw backs but a 1 by 1 desecrate, 1 second delay between each desecrate, and a higher consumption of health/energy are actually pretty balanced drawbacks.  

Edited August 16, 2016 by (PS4)salovel1991

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

This is what happened to Volt. Everyone talking about contradictory builds and being in agreement on what was wrong.....

This will probably be ignored as well

[Ceryk]

58 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Literally right there in your post, you copied this:

consuming the corpses and granting a 22.5% / 32% / 42.5% / 54% chance to roll the corpse's drop table again to produce additional loot

 

The chance is right there, just because you Desecrate a corpse, it doesnt mean that you got your loot roll from it. Old Desecrate was able to keep trying until the corpse spit something out, or disintegrated. Now you get one chance due to the fact that bodies get desecrated regardless of extra loot or not. 

I think you got a bit too stuck on the wording?

If you had bothered to completely read my post you would have seen this:

 

 

1 hour ago, Ceryk said:

Where or not you get loot out of it is a completely different issue, the corpses themselves are guaranteed to desecrate as long as they are in range and their decay timer hasn't expired before the ability gets to them.

My temporary lapse in ability to spell "whether" aside, the argument that lead to that post was about Corpse Consumption now being guaranteed (provided conditions are met, which one would assume was something that would need not be said) and rather than a 60% chance of it happening as was with the old system. It had nothing to do with whether or not the consumed corpse resulted in loot. It was completely about corpse consumption.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Ceryk

[armedpoop]

6 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

If you had bothered to completely read my post you would have seen this:

My temporary lapse in ability to spell "whether" aside, the argument that lead to that post was about Corpse Consumption now being guaranteed (provided conditions are met, which one would assume was something that would need not be said) and rather than a 60% chance of it happening as was with the old system. It had nothing to do with whether or not the consumed corpse resulted in loot. It was completely about corpse consumption.

I think im having a communication breakdown somewhere here. 

I thought that you were saying that a desecrated corpse meant guaranteed loot, and not just corpse consumption. My bad, carry on.

[HellFireHound]

TL:DR: Least squad is moving and not waiting on me just to use my power gambling odds versus now it works regardless AND I'm mobile.

 

At least his ability desacrates regardless. Before it drove me nuts farming off of Corpus for their polymer without doing an excavation. Least now I don't have to tear my hair out because they didn't drop nothing even though I tried maybe 3, 4, even 5 times just to squeeze anything out. I play with friends who don't have the money (plat) to get nice things where Desecrate is actually nice (low level Valk, Inaros, low sheild more health frames) since health and energy drop guaranteed for squadies who have run out of energy OR at the point of bleeding out and need health now by falling back to areas just chop full of health.

I could farm all day for awesome mods or hard resources (bless RNG for resource booster login and neurode farming on Kubrows) but when it comes to higher level missions or types, i.e. survival, defense, or other endless types. Maybe my guys aren't good with power conservation to save themselves in a bad situation, thus me as a Nekros plays good at healing them through this toggle ability than smashing three crossing my fingers before, "ohgodpleasework that's a <insert heavy enemy type> looking at me and there's no cover near by."

I'm not mad they made loot less obtainable, I'm actually glad I don't waste my time hoping Desecrate works when I can spend my time using Nekros to level up gear and get more credits in a mission if I don't want to focus on loot and maybe play the util frame that heals and people befitting off Rejuv too if they froma'd their tank frame and need a Nekros to cover a flank than a Trin with 15 armor hugging them for protection from intensive fire and pressing 4 for your own benifit more often than your squad. Missions go waaaaay more smoothly keeping the bodies stacking AND keeping your squadies alive and moving fluidity than stop and go hoping 3 works. Maybe I'm more of a support guy than pure firepower guy. Just my two cents. Or ArmA is my better strong point being that guardian angel.

Edited August 16, 2016 by HellFireHound

[Dreddeth]

So what I'm getting out of this now that people have bothered to explain themselves is that Desecrate is now less efficient in return for being more convenient.

Since Desecrate never affected anything other than loot drops in a meaningful way, and since loot manipulation doesn't really do anything except save a couple missions' worth of time and make a handy excuse if the tables would ever be nerfed (I'm not saying that a hard drop-rate nerf would actually happen, though resource costs already aren't as reasonable as they used to be.), I'd argue that the bigger problem here is its existence to begin with. It's not even particularly thematic considering Nekros is supposed to be the Necromancer, and ought to be replaced with something more to do with dead stuff.

I mean, you could keep the mechanics of it and simply cause it to turn corpses into proximity mines, or forgo loot entirely and just make them spawn orbs and/or ammo, and it might just end up putting Nekros in a better place. Or you could scrap it completely and think up something new. As it was, and as it is, it's his "obligatory" useless skill, like Sleight of Hand or Psychic Bolts.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Dreddeth

[armedpoop]

15 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

So what I'm getting out of this now that people have bothered to explain themselves is that Desecrate is now less efficient in return for being more convenient.

Since Desecrate never affected anything other than loot drops in a meaningful way, and since loot manipulation doesn't really do anything except save a couple missions' worth of time and make a handy excuse if the tables would ever be nerfed (I'm not saying that a hard drop-rate nerf would actually happen, though resource costs already aren't as reasonable as they used to be.), I'd argue that the bigger problem here is its existence to begin with. It's not even particularly thematic considering Nekros is supposed to be the Necromancer, and ought to be replaced with something more to do with dead stuff.

I mean, you could keep the mechanics of it and simply cause it to turn corpses into proximity mines, or forgo loot entirely and just make them spawn orbs and/or ammo, and it might just end up putting Nekros in a better place. Or you could scrap it completely and think up something new. As it was, and as it is, it's his "obligatory" useless skill, like Sleight of Hand or Psychic Bolts.

Desecrate also works as a pseudo heal on the level of Oberon's 4 (minus all the damage of course) if you really want to get technical

 

"It's not even particularly thematic considering Nekros is supposed to be the Necromancer, and ought to be replaced with something more to do with dead stuff."

What? You are literally "Desecrating" the dead, something Necromancers do just by even disturbing the dead to begin with, id say its pretty thematic. 

 

"Or you could scrap it completely and think up something new. As it was, and as it is, it's his "obligatory" useless skill, like Sleight of Hand or Psychic Bolts."

2 things wrong here:

1. NO frame should have an "obligatory bad power"

2. Reducing the drops to ammo/health is just a hard nerf to the ability, as it already spawns both of these things, all that does is cause the ability to be worthless which no ability ever "should" be worthless. Using the ability to turn them into mines is also pointless because Nekros isn't a damage frame, he should stay that way.  

 

I know DE doesn't set out to make only 3 "good" powers on a frame, surely that cant be what they intend for any frame they create. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by armedpoop

[Ceryk]

1 minute ago, armedpoop said:

"It's not even particularly thematic considering Nekros is supposed to be the Necromancer, and ought to be replaced with something more to do with dead stuff."

What? You are literally "Desecrating" the dead, something Necromancers do just by even disturbing the dead to begin with, id say its pretty thematic. 

 

Yep. Nercomancers are graverobbers. That's generally how they get corpses in the first place. Plus they don't generally have a day job to earn income since they still nee to eat, so they steal the loot too.

[HellFireHound]

3 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Desecrate also works as a pseudo heal on the level of Oberon's 4 (minus all the damage of course) if you really want to get technical

 

"It's not even particularly thematic considering Nekros is supposed to be the Necromancer, and ought to be replaced with something more to do with dead stuff."

What? You are literally "Desecrating" the dead, something Necromancers do just by even disturbing the dead to begin with, id say its pretty thematic. 

 

"Or you could scrap it completely and think up something new. As it was, and as it is, it's his "obligatory" useless skill, like Sleight of Hand or Psychic Bolts."

2 things wrong here:

1. NO frame should have an "obligatory bad power"

2. Reducing the drops to ammo/health is just a hard nerf to the ability, as it already spawns both of these things, all that does is cause the ability to be worthless which no ability ever "should" be worthless. Using the ability to turn them into mines is also pointless because Nekros isn't a damage frame, he should stay that way.  I know DE doesn't set out to make only 3 "good" powers on a frame, surely that cant be what they intend for any frame they create. 

Exactly! Every power on a frame has a time and place. Slight of Hand isn't useless per-say. Say if I got loot containers and I'm starring down a group of MOAs or more than my care to handle amount of guys, hit the power, shoot the container and come back around for another go. 

[Xzorn]

I think the bottom line with Nekros is they nerfed his Desecrate while giving him nothing special in return then called it a rework.

Desecrate was his only ability that was worth casting without the augment. ALL of his other abilities requires the augment to be viable and his 1 still kinda isn't.

That's not how augments are supposed to work. His abilities at face value are just underwhelming.

His playability went up but his overall value went down.  I don't need resources and therefor I have no reason to ever use him. That's not good design.

[mindlord0013]

Let's be totally honest here: Desecrate and Pilfering Swarm are fairly unhealthy gameplay elements, especially Desecrate before the rework. The passions of all the people in the thread here prove that. People are complaining that it's now less effective, and should be changed to be as effective as before. People on the other side are saying, "well, at least now you're actually able to play the game". I'll be the first to admit that the RNG in Warframe is a little on the harsh side of things. Any gameplay mechanic designed to alleviate that fact will therefore become a mandatory part of high-level and min-maxed play. It therefore doesn't surprise me that any perceived (or actual) nerf or attempted removal of these looting abilities causes people to take up arms - despite the fact it's probably better for the metagame if they were removed completely.

For the record, I'm of the opinion that IF we absolutely must have them as a part of the game then they should be in a way that leads to a healthy metagame. The changes to Desecrate fairly achieves this, as it encourages players to be more active and play the game. After all, it's better than playing the loot tables.

[Matt89Connor]

1 hour ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

This is what happened to Volt. Everyone talking about contradictory builds and being in agreement on what was wrong.....

This will probably be ignored as well

i'm not an expert with volt, but i like the new rework, mybe the cost for move with the shield is too high but i like the rest, what is the problem with him?

[Matt89Connor]

i hope the you will not ignore all our feedback becuse if you do, why create a topic or speak about give feedback?

[Wolfnrun]

1 hour ago, Matt89Connor said:

i hope the you will not ignore all our feedback becuse if you do, why create a topic or speak about give feedback?

That's a good question I never quite understood... Maybe it's to hear are complaints out of Boredom? No clue. With the recent reworks of many frames, (More specifaccly volt)  I am running low on options of what frame to be... I should not have to change 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[F4talFr4me]

26 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

That's a good question I never quite understood... Maybe it's to hear are complaints out of Boredom? No clue. With the recent reworks of many frames, (More specifaccly volt)  I am running low on options of what frame to be... I should not have to change 

Im just running Inaros 24/7 because i die in 2 seconds flat in other frames on sorties. if they arent modded to hell and back with nessesary augments (like nekros NEEDS his to live or be any good)

Get 100% armor mods easy, use 4 on inaros, become godlike. need hp? blind/dagger to face. Nekros needs hp? touch luck. your minions wont save you as they too busy dieing to enemys far away or they die just by being summoned. cant use Fear ability becuase desecrate just sucked your whole energy bar while giving you almost 50% less loot now.

This patch is terrible.

 

[Wolfnrun]

2 hours ago, Matt89Connor said:

i'm not an expert with volt, but i like the new rework, mybe the cost for move with the shield is too high but i like the rest, what is the problem with him?

TLDR : We were LIED to about what was going to happen, something of EXCAL TIER but that did not happen, we thought we have got a super strong WARRIOR but that is not the case... "Altrenative to gunplay" Is INCORRECT, that, and they hate volt, look on prime time, they SKIP him and worship all the other frames, "Suitable for a starter frame" ~ devstream 72 go hear it  for yourself GO He is seen as being a frame that should be ditched after a certain point, it caused much aggresion. My next go-to frame is nekros, or at least it WAS, health decay is NOT balanced! There is a problem of balance in warframe which irritates me to no end! I would very much have it so it's more casual to see warframes being stronger than weapons then this, they don't care about our feeback, do they? 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Wolfnrun
Needed to bold

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

On 13.8.2016 at 0:26 AM, xRufus7x said:

 

16 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

TLDR : We were LIED to about what was going to happen, something of EXCAL TIER but that did not happen, we thought we have got a super strong WARRIOR but that is not the case... "Altrenative to gunplay" Is INCORRECT, that, and they hate volt, look on prime time, they SKIP him and worship all the other frames, "Suitable for a starter frame" ~ devstream 72 go hear it  for yourself GO He is seen as being a frame that should be ditched after a certain point, it caused much aggresion. My next go-to frame is nekros, or at least it WAS, health decay is NOT balanced! There is a problem of balance in warframe which irritates me to no end! I would very much have it so it's more casual to see warframes being stronger than weapons then this, they don't care about our feeback, do they? 

 

You...do realise what strong of an energy Tank He is don't you? 

Alternative to gunplay? He gets a melee buff and has means to be effective extending his range.

 

So what may be the Problem? That the Devs did not meet YOUR EXPECTATION? 

...they told us something vague and you Drew your own picture about what would happen to him, only to be dissapointed that it was "only" a needet buff to the original concept...that's unfair pal.

[Wolfnrun]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

 

You...do realise what strong of an energy Tank He is don't you? 

Alternative to gunplay? He gets a melee buff and has means to be effective extending his range.

 

So what may be the Problem? That the Devs did not meet YOUR EXPECTATION? 

...they told us something vague and you Drew your own picture about what would happen to him, only to be dissapointed that it was "only" a needet buff to the original concept...that's unfair pal.

Are you telling me that the only way to go is melee volt with speed? Many of us expected more, not just me, it made many very excited, myself included and we should have not expected any less then the BEST

Edited August 16, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[F4talFr4me]

Pretty sure they said he wont require duration on his 4th ability anymore. then they made it REQUIRE duration or its useless. so.. yes. they lied.

[LunarEdge7]

2 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

Are you telling me that the only way to go is melee volt with speed? Many of us expected more, not just me, it made many very excited, myself included and we should have not expected any less then the best 

Well, what else did you want? There's gun then there's melee. Or both (gunblade).

Then there's casting abilities. That's it. Did you mean.. you want Volt to have a channeling type dmg ability like Excal, Wukong, Valkyr, Ivara and Mesa (Soon Titania, too)?

Imo, I'd hate that. Too many of these types of weapon-relying abilities. Plus I can't imagine Volt doing anything else other than safely moving forward with his current shield and pistol-killing everything, along with speedrunning and melee-melting everything.

I think they just need to decide what they want to drain while Volt uses the Shield in Current Form (holding it and moving). Make it drain energy and pause the duration when holding it, or have it not drain energy at all.

Health Cap on his Discharge atm feels like a pain. Put too much into strength and your ult will be unreliable.

[Wolfnrun]

1 minute ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Well, what else did you want? There's gun then there's melee. Or both (gunblade).

Then there's casting abilities. That's it. Did you mean.. you want Volt to have a channeling type dmg ability like Excal, Wukong, Valkyr, Ivara and Mesa (Soon Titania, too)?

Imo, I'd hate that. Too many of these types of weapon-relying abilities. Plus I can't imagine Volt doing anything else other than safely moving forward with his current shield and pistol-killing everything, along with speedrunning and melee-melting everything.

I think they just need to decide what they want to drain while Volt uses the Shield in Current Form (holding it and moving). Make it drain energy and pause the duration when holding it, or have it not drain energy at all.

Health Cap on his Discharge atm feels like a pain. Put too much into strength and your ult will be unreliable.

Ehhh, no just something... diffrent. Ya that health cap is a pain, have you seen enemies break free from discharge? mid duration? It makes it less effective 

[LunarEdge7]

1 minute ago, Wolfnrun said:

Ehhh, no just something... diffrent. Ya that health cap is a pain, have you seen enemies break free from discharge? mid duration? It makes it less effective 

You need to like, give some ideas on how you want it to be different though.. Just feeling all salty at them won't do anything good. They took some ideas and suggestions from us and put them in, or make them similar at least, no?

I really liked the change from Overload to Discharge, in fact it was the first thing I expected from him when I farmed him up. Actually stunning people and making them dance in place.

Ideas I could give to make him more interesting is: even more synergy. Using Speed and running in a circle with enemies in it (leaving temporary electric trails after about 3 circle laps, then Discharge would focus Tesla Coiling them. Atm the only synergy with Speed is using mobile Electric Shield and then Speed to counter the movement speed reduction and that's meh..

[Gurpgork]

7 hours ago, armedpoop said:

What about not wanting to waste time getting resources if you dont want to?

Because the entire point of having resources in the first place is so that the developers can gate us from new content. It doesn't make sense for them to give us ways to bypass this system. Unless you think 30k Cryotic or 7k Oxium are perfectly reasonable resource costs. 

[Wolfnrun]

4 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

You need to like, give some ideas on how you want it to be different though.. Just feeling all salty at them won't do anything good. They took some ideas and suggestions from us and put them in, or make them similar at least, no?

I really liked the change from Overload to Discharge, in fact it was the first thing I expected from him when I farmed him up. Actually stunning people and making them dance in place.

Ideas I could give to make him more interesting is: even more synergy. Using Speed and running in a circle with enemies in it (leaving temporary electric trails after about 3 circle laps, then Discharge would focus Tesla Coiling them. Atm the only synergy with Speed is using mobile Electric Shield and then Speed to counter the movement speed reduction and that's meh..

Heres the thing, most of our ideas have gone IGNORED, we wanted a MES but execution was poor, we wanted synergys with speed, nothing there. There was more potiental that went unoticed, I'm not going to share ideas over and over and OVER. Only thing you could do is not be volt...which Is why I went to nekros...and now I'm migrating AGAIN... 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Wolfnrun