On the Topic of Saryn vs Excalibur

[TurtleOverseer]

To be clear, before we begin this, I'm labeling this under General Discussion as it's not Feedback. To explain, the target audience of this thread is other members and my goal is to simply share a thought about a large community discussion that's been going on all around. I am also attempting to refrain from having Bias.

To also give some background as to where I'm coming from, I will quote a Tenno, who I will leave unnamed for obvious reasons, who commented on a YouTube video with an argument of theirs involving Saryn vs. Excalibur. This said video is Brozime's "Warframe Academia: Saryn vs. Excal DPS"(Video here). What the unnamed Tenno said follows:

"Saryn will never out perform an excalibur that close to an enemy especially when it comes to dps on a single target, this is true. But if you want a frame that can help clear a @(*()$ map? Saryn is way better. If the contest was who can clear a defense mission wave first saryn with a correct build would win almost every time. But because you neglected her energy pool, range, and efficiency (if you aint all up on dat EV trin) you've made her look terrible even in a basic scenario. I dont know the whole context of this video. Maybe commentators got to you saying saryn was better than excalibur in terms of damage or something? IDK but building saryn the way you did and then comparing it to a correctly built Excalibur who excels against single targets is needlessly unfair. Saryn is for room clearing and debuffing, Excalibur is for killing whatever is directly in front of him. BOOM THATS THE REAL COMPARISON."

I just thought his argument is still contradicted by the video. Your making the point that Saryn can clear rooms, while this situation is not showing her potential. The video was only comparing damage, as that was the arguement he was refuting, for people continued to throw it at him (the argument that Saryn did more damage than an Excalibur). So therefore, the point of the build was to maximize damage with Saryn, forgetting the range and efficiency as it wouldn't matter for this test. Another problem is that with Efficiency, Saryn opens up to do more of her thing, but a big problem and point in this video is that he's demonstrating that what Saryn does, others do better (in particular, damage, as that's the thing in question here).

On a quick side note, what does their energy economy have to do with this? There simply isn't a reason to attempting to reapply debuffs when it's going to accomplish nothing more than burning through energy. As I just pointed out, this is about damage and attempting to balance out efficiency would only detract from damage, meaning that it's not about how much he can throw this out, especially when, again, you can't really reapply debuffs.

Going back on main note, your point is that Saryn's potential is shown with range and room clearing, your scenario of choice for an example is wave 1 on a defense. Well, frankly anything can do wave 1 on defense, it doesn't matter what mission. In addition to this, Exalted Blade's projectiles travel 40 METERS and PEIRCE INFINITELY. In short, Exalted Blade is amazing in a single target damage situation, but you forget that Exalted Blade can simultaneously kill freaking EVERYTHING, not just what's in front of you (that was his whole point with demonstrating Exalted Blade's 40 meter range, and reminding the audience that his build was with only a Fury mod [as he had not yet gotten a Beserker proc], despite the large amount of projectiles he was swinging out). Looking at how it unfolds, your point holds exactly true: Saryn's DoT would technically kill everything at once with enough range to affect the room, but my point in this paragraph is simply that Excalibur's Exalted Blade and Radial Blind can easily kill crowds too (and with more damage because of true damage), just simply in a different way, and because of that same way, is, yes, going to be better in Single Target situations as well.

To finish out, I will not deny that I've have heard and seen with my own eyes that a proper Ignis Saryn, especially a Gas build Ignis, can do pretty darn well. Alas this was something he did not test for Brozime was simply comparing damage, not "effectiveness" (I don't really know how to put it), and I also don't mean to say Excalibur's ineffective when I say that. On a final note, if you really want something that clears rooms, as something else on my earlier point of "what Saryn does, some others are stronger in", just get the infamous edge-lord Ash and his infamous Bladestorm can literally clear the room in moments. Thanks for reading this REALLY long post.

EDIT: Since this is necessary for me to make clear, as I apparently failed to make this clear enough, I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm actually under what a couple of people have already said, that in Warframe you should frankly play how you want to, and also that each Warframe works in different ways and I'm not saying one is better than the other. In fact, I even touched on this when I was talking about how Saryn may be able to kill a room of enemies with DoTs and how Excalibur can also do this, but does it by slashing everything into oblivion. If you wish to accomplish a specific objective, you can do so with the wide variety of Frames out there. If you want to clear a room of enemies: Power through it with Rhino or Chroma, Burn it to the ground by setting ALL on fire with Ember, Slash the enemy into oblivion with Excalibur, Kill everything in a cool ninja-like fashion with Ash. This post was simply a thought on this video which was comparing the two frames in the aspect of just raw damage, nothing else, no fancy builds or anything (I don't really think that Excalibur build was really cheating as he only used blind and then threw out a few slashes), just simply trying to maximize damage, compare stats, and do some maximized calculations.

Edited August 14, 2016 by TurtleOverseer

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

Imma just say EV Trinity+Spore Saryn+WoF Ember=Ultimate DPS machine.

[Sixty5]

Please keep YouTube comments on YouTube. 

Saryn and Excal fill different roles, the frame that is better is the one that fits the playstyle and preferences of the user. 

Personally I like Saryn more because she has a more complete kit and feels less clunky than Excal. That makes Saryn a better fit for me, but does not make her the better frame. 

[TurtleOverseer]

3 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

Please keep YouTube comments on YouTube. 

Saryn and Excal fill different roles, the frame that is better is the one that fits the playstyle and preferences of the user. 

Personally I like Saryn more because she has a more complete kit and feels less clunky than Excal. That makes Saryn a better fit for me, but does not make her the better frame. 

Yeah that's especially a big concept to keep in mind when playing this game, just play how you want to. 

Also sorry about the YouTube comments, I'll keep that in mind next time. I simply thought it would be better to make a forum post since it was really long, probably too long for a comment, and also so i could point other people to it.

Edited August 14, 2016 by TurtleOverseer

[Calwon5]

I don't understand why either you or someone else is comparing Saryn with Excalibur. They can do a lot of damage towards the enemies, but they do it in their own way. At some missions you should bring saryn and some others you should bring excalibur. Unless I miss the whole point of this post, I really think you shouldn't compare any frames to another because they specialize in different things. They may be similar, one may be better but still you shouldn't say this particular frame is a direct upgrade over this other warframe. And if so this frame is directly better than the other frame, then that is why its going to be reworked on eventually.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Calwon5

[(XBOX)Prime Pedestal]

Excalibur > Everything :)

[Helch0rn]

First of all:

The Guy whose video you refer to (not calling names) is biased when it comes to comparing Saryn to Excal.

He based his opinion on a build that is so bad that it hurts me on a physical level.

Saryn is able to melt level 150 enemies with ease if played properly

 

1 minute ago, (XB1)AnnoyedHaddock said:

Saryn > Everything :)

FTFY

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

Saryn has literally infinite scaling damage. In other words, regardless of level, even if its 9999, given enough enemies to spread ebolaids Spores to, they will die.

[OzoneSlayer]

2 minutes ago, ArchangelusAlpharius said:

Saryn has literally infinite scaling damage. In other words, regardless of level, even if its 9999, given enough enemies to spread ebolaids Spores to, they will die.

You mean half their health? And I would argue that covert lethality actually does scale infinitely

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

Just now, OzoneSlayer said:

You mean half their health? And I would argue that covert lethality actually does scale infinitely

No, as toxin procs stack, and once you get spores bouncing off one another continuously, they stack up ludicrously. The viral Proc does help too.

[Autongnosis]

3 minutes ago, OzoneSlayer said:

You mean half their health? And I would argue that covert lethality actually does scale infinitely

No, die.

Infinitely increasing DoT for the win ^^

[OzoneSlayer]

5 minutes ago, ArchangelusAlpharius said:

No, as toxin procs stack, and once you get spores bouncing off one another continuously, they stack up ludicrously. The viral Proc does help too.

 

3 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

No, die.

Infinitely increasing DoT for the win ^^

How many casts are we talking? What's the optimal build? How good is the ttk on high end enemies? Can I get an in game example through recording? I'm just curious, as I dont play Saryn enough to gauge effectiveness

Edited August 14, 2016 by OzoneSlayer

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

3 minutes ago, OzoneSlayer said:

 

How many casts are we talking? What's the optimal build? How good is the ttk on high end enemies? I'm just curious, as I dont play Saryn enough to gauge effectiveness

1 cast is usually all you need. A Wizard never reveals his secrets(Except if you have less than 235 range, and aren't running a melee build, you are kinda really doing it wrong). Depends on how many enemies there are, its true saryn can't single target, as there are not enough victims to infect with her space STDs and Ebola-cancer.

Edited August 14, 2016 by ArchangelusAlpharius

[Helch0rn]

5 minutes ago, OzoneSlayer said:

You mean half their health? And I would argue that covert lethality actually does scale infinitely

If you base excal sacling infinitley on a mod for daggers then equinox,  ivara and mirage scale infinitley too.

But as others Pointed out,  It's those sweet sweet stacking toxin procs that kill,  not the viral proc

2 minutes ago, OzoneSlayer said:

 

How many casts are we talking? What's the optimal build? How good is the ttk on high end enemies? Can I get an in game example through recording? I'm just curious, as I dont play Saryn enough to gauge effectiveness

1 cast that ist spread over and over by shooting spores with (preferrably) aoe weapons

More enemies = more and faster death

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

Well I hate saryn because you have to sit still to spread your spores and you can die (although she is quite beefy). I prefer excal because I can run, blind, kill and don't have to stop for a long period of time. I know that saryn can dead massive amounts of dmg but I prefer Excalibur because I freaking love using melee. Got to use that passive 

[Ivan_Rid]

1 minute ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Well I hate saryn because you have to sit still to spread your spores and you can die (although she is quite beefy). I prefer excal because I can run, blind, kill and don't have to stop for a long period of time. I know that saryn can dead massive amounts of dmg but I prefer Excalibur because I freaking love using melee. Got to use that passive 

Sit still? Casting Spores on Molt is not the way to play Saryn. You cant proc Toxin on Molt so Spores popped from Molt do pitiful Radial and DoT damage.

[Helch0rn]

3 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Well I hate saryn because you have to sit still to spread your spores and you can die (although she is quite beefy). I prefer excal because I can run, blind, kill and don't have to stop for a long period of time. I know that saryn can dead massive amounts of dmg but I prefer Excalibur because I freaking love using melee. Got to use that passive 

Molt, spores on molt,  molt again

Congratulations the whole map is infected with ebola. 

No need to sit still,  you just have to aim at your molt while moving

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

3 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Sit still? Casting Spores on Molt is not the way to play Saryn. You cant proc Toxin on Molt so Spores popped from Molt do pitiful Radial and DoT damage.

Sorry to offend you but all I see when a saryn is in a mission is, cast molt, spores everything dies and repeat

[Marvelous_A]

Don't really understand what's the point to compare these two frames, they are both excellent in doing their job.

EDIT: Why would anyone say Excalibur is an inferior DPS frame seriously? Even after the EB nerf he is still capable to destroy most enemies in few swings...even for heavies you only need a single cast of RB -_- He can clear the entire room in few seconds just like Saryn does, and he doesn't even require any set-up except of a RB (Though I prefer execute one-by-one for the lulz). Basically Excalibur is the combination of decent DPS + outstanding CC and he's one of the best designed frame in this game IMO, all you need to do is to secure the energy supply for him.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Marvelous_A

[Obviousclone]

4 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Don't really understand what's the point to compare these two frames, they are both excellent in doing their job.

there's no reason to argue goku vs superman

 

but it's fun, even if on the outside it looks like they're just slinging mud angrily at each other.

 

that being said, I'm of the opinion that saryn+ignis is insane against crowds and actually works at the sortie level whereas Excalibur somewhat struggles against these people unless he's running a radiant finish build

[Ivan_Rid]

8 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Sorry to offend you but all I see when a saryn is in a mission is, cast molt, spores everything dies and repeat

No offense taken, its just that I somewhat despise that stationary ability spam playstyle (Molt-Spore-Spore-Spore-Spore..). It is not even that effective, unless you wield a weapon with Hexis syndicate proc.

[Dreddeth]

56 minutes ago, TurtleOverseer said:

Going back on main note, your point is that Saryn's potential is shown with range and room clearing, your scenario of choice for an example is wave 1 on a defense. Well, frankly anything can do wave 1 on defense, it doesn't matter what mission. In addition to this, Exalted Blade's projectiles travel 40 METERS and PEIRCE INFINITELY. In short, Exalted Blade is amazing in a single target damage situation, but you forget that Exalted Blade can simultaneously kill freaking EVERYTHING, not just what's in front of you (that was his whole point with demonstrating Exalted Blade's 40 meter range, and reminding the audience that his build was with only a Fury mod [as he had not yet gotten a Beserker proc], despite the large amount of projectiles he was swinging out). Looking at how it unfolds, your point holds exactly true: Saryn's DoT would technically kill everything at once with enough range to affect the room, but my point in this paragraph is simply that Excalibur's Exalted Blade and Radial Blind can easily kill crowds too (and with more damage because of true damage), just simply in a different way, and because of that same way, is, yes, going to be better in Single Target situations as well.

Exalted Blade is no longer broken; it suffers damage falloff based on enemies penetrated AND distance traveled, so at max range you'll do <25% damage even if you didn't hit anything else in the way. Rob from AGGP playtested this. The video you're citing is outdated and thus no longer valid in its criticism of Saryn, though whether or not it was valid to begin with is certainly debatable.

Viral halves enemy HP, and Toxin bypasses shields, does extra damage to Ferrite Armor, scales with crits, and can stack indefinitely, while EB's  IPS-based damage has to chew through defenses aided by one-and-a-half elemental combos at best. These procs are guaranteed when using the Spore+Toxic Lash combo. Furthermore, a Toxic Lash Saryn can take full advantage of Shadow Debt mods, which an EB Excalibur can't use because they're basically a wasted slot since they don't work on EB. So on top of guaranteed procs, Saryn gets guaranteed crits for those procs to scale off of as early as the 1.5* multiplier, on top of said multiplier, on top of much, much better stance multipliers than Exalted Blade.

Since those crit-multiplier+combo-multiplier+stance-multiplier-enhanced Toxin procs spread and stack on every enemy in radius, accompanied by Viral procs, every time a spore is popped, and importantly do NOT diminish in damage with distance, on top refunding 2 energy per pop, her sustained damage against crowds is monstrous. Here's an extreme example, but say my War crits on the ground-slam of Tempo Royale's back-combo, and has a 2.0* combo multiplier. Not only do I deal... 5*2*3.8=38... 38* my total modded damage (Toxic Lash adds its damage as a mod would apart from not combining with other elements, btw) as raw damage to everything the slam hits, but that damage is going to be applied again to everything in the slam, and everything within those enemies' Spore range, as a Toxin DoT, on top of the Viral proc from the popped Spores. Plus I get energy back instead of having it continually drained.

So no, Excal is not objectively better at what Saryn does. In fact, Saryn is arguably the best at what she does, which is deal sustained AoE DPS.

Though at the point in time where the video was made, Excalibur might possibly have been thanks to EB's giant, un-diminishing base damage and infinite punch-through for its entire range. Which would be a perfectly valid reason for EB's nerf, because he certainly wasn't intended to be better at AoE damage than frames that specialize in AoE. Against a single target or a small group EB is still amazing, but Excalibur quickly falls off compared to true AoE-focused frames like Maim Equinox or Magnetize Mag once the hordes start piling in.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Dreddeth

[TheAn0n]

Not anymore.

With a very specific gear loadout (which I will not explain here) Saryn can indeed clear rooms on her own only downside is it needs a bit of finesse to pull off (not that hard though) .

After the nerf Excalibur is an extremely bad and inefficient DPS frame that will not outdo Saryn in AoE or single target DPS. You may see a 400k finisher on Excalibur but by the time he has killed 2 enemies Saryn has cleared the entire room.

There is no debate to be had here. Excalibur even with the best most expensive mods is now one of the worst DPS dedicated frames in the game. Saryn with the ideal gear is one of the best.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

32 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Exalted Blade is no longer broken; it suffers damage falloff based on enemies penetrated AND distance traveled, so at max range you'll do <25% damage even if you didn't hit anything else in the way. Rob from AGGP playtested this. The video you're citing is outdated and thus no longer valid in its criticism of Saryn, though whether or not it was valid to begin with is certainly debatable.

Viral halves enemy HP, and Toxin bypasses shields, does extra damage to Ferrite Armor, scales with crits, and can stack indefinitely, while EB's  IPS-based damage has to chew through defenses aided by one-and-a-half elemental combos at best. These procs are guaranteed when using the Spore+Toxic Lash combo. Furthermore, a Toxic Lash Saryn can take full advantage of Shadow Debt mods, which an EB Excalibur can't use because they're basically a wasted slot since they don't work on EB. So on top of guaranteed procs, Saryn gets guaranteed crits for those procs to scale off of as early as the 1.5* multiplier, on top of said multiplier, on top of much, much better stance multipliers than Exalted Blade.

Since those crit-multiplier+combo-multiplier+stance-multiplier-enhanced Toxin procs spread and stack on every enemy in radius, accompanied by Viral procs, every time a spore is popped, and importantly do NOT diminish in damage with distance, on top refunding 2 energy per pop, her sustained damage against crowds is monstrous. Here's an extreme example, but say my War crits on the ground-slam of Tempo Royale's back-combo, and has a 2.0* combo multiplier. Not only do I deal... 5*2*3.8=38... 38* my total modded damage (Toxic Lash adds its damage as a mod would apart from not combining with other elements, btw) as raw damage to everything the slam hits, but that damage is going to be applied again to everything in the slam, and everything within those enemies' Spore range, as a Toxin DoT, on top of the Viral proc from the popped Spores. Plus I get energy back instead of having it continually drained.

So no, Excal is not objectively better at what Saryn does. In fact, Saryn is arguably the best at what she does, which is deal sustained AoE DPS.

Though at the point in time where the video was made, Excalibur might possibly have been thanks to EB's giant, un-diminishing base damage and infinite punch-through for its entire range. Which would be a perfectly valid reason for EB's nerf, because he certainly wasn't intended to be better at AoE damage than frames that specialize in AoE. Against a single target or a small group EB is still amazing, but Excalibur quickly falls off compared to true AoE-focused frames like Maim Equinox or Magnetize Mag once the hordes start piling in.

Would you mind sharing your frame and weapon builds?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

both frames are equally good at their respective roles. Excal is an excellent Warframe vs single heavy targets while Saryn is an amazing elemental caster.

I will admit that I am more of a Saryn lover, the main reasons being mass Viral Proc, a melee buff and the ability to regenerate 50HP per second with Regenerative Molt. all this together gives her good damage and great survivability. but Excal is still a great frame even after the nerf. EB still deals immense damage and radial Blind always has and always will turn crowds of heavies into easy kills. you could literally kill anything with Radial Blind + a Dagger with Covert Lethality.

debating which of two frames is better overall when they are totally different is only going to produce toxicity and division amongst the community. there is no "best frame".