On the Topic of Saryn vs Excalibur

[OzoneSlayer]

1 hour ago, Helch0rn said:

If you base excal sacling infinitley on a mod for daggers then equinox,  ivara and mirage scale infinitley too.

But as others Pointed out,  It's those sweet sweet stacking toxin procs that kill,  not the viral proc

1 cast that ist spread over and over by shooting spores with (preferrably) aoe weapons

More enemies = more and faster death

And your point? They do as well

 

And I guess  my viral status weapons scale infinitely

[OzoneSlayer]

They're both great frames on their own right, and excal has some versatility, allowing him to melt crowds of lv 100+ enemies as well with this not very popular setup

 Saryn is a debuffer, and plays a whole different role, so i dont even understand why this is a comparison. Its like those pointless ash vs Loki debates

[TurtleOverseer]

1 hour ago, Dreddeth said:

Exalted Blade is no longer broken; it suffers damage falloff based on enemies penetrated AND distance traveled, so at max range you'll do <25% damage even if you didn't hit anything else in the way. Rob from AGGP playtested this. The video you're citing is outdated and thus no longer valid in its criticism of Saryn, though whether or not it was valid to begin with is certainly debatable.

Viral halves enemy HP, and Toxin bypasses shields, does extra damage to Ferrite Armor, scales with crits, and can stack indefinitely, while EB's  IPS-based damage has to chew through defenses aided by one-and-a-half elemental combos at best. These procs are guaranteed when using the Spore+Toxic Lash combo. Furthermore, a Toxic Lash Saryn can take full advantage of Shadow Debt mods, which an EB Excalibur can't use because they're basically a wasted slot since they don't work on EB. So on top of guaranteed procs, Saryn gets guaranteed crits for those procs to scale off of as early as the 1.5* multiplier, on top of said multiplier, on top of much, much better stance multipliers than Exalted Blade.

Since those crit-multiplier+combo-multiplier+stance-multiplier-enhanced Toxin procs spread and stack on every enemy in radius, accompanied by Viral procs, every time a spore is popped, and importantly do NOT diminish in damage with distance, on top refunding 2 energy per pop, her sustained damage against crowds is monstrous. Here's an extreme example, but say my War crits on the ground-slam of Tempo Royale's back-combo, and has a 2.0* combo multiplier. Not only do I deal... 5*2*3.8=38... 38* my total modded damage (Toxic Lash adds its damage as a mod would apart from not combining with other elements, btw) as raw damage to everything the slam hits, but that damage is going to be applied again to everything in the slam, and everything within those enemies' Spore range, as a Toxin DoT, on top of the Viral proc from the popped Spores. Plus I get energy back instead of having it continually drained.

So no, Excal is not objectively better at what Saryn does. In fact, Saryn is arguably the best at what she does, which is deal sustained AoE DPS.

Though at the point in time where the video was made, Excalibur might possibly have been thanks to EB's giant, un-diminishing base damage and infinite punch-through for its entire range. Which would be a perfectly valid reason for EB's nerf, because he certainly wasn't intended to be better at AoE damage than frames that specialize in AoE. Against a single target or a small group EB is still amazing, but Excalibur quickly falls off compared to true AoE-focused frames like Maim Equinox or Magnetize Mag once the hordes start piling in.

Whew, that's a long quote. I'm fully aware of the Exalted Blade nerfs, my point was just that Exalted Blade slashes do go through the crowd when attacking into a crowd so that you can still use it in situtaions with congested enemies, I wasn't really citing the video. In fact, I'm the kind of guy how more likes to use it sparingly and on and off to kill groups in bad situations, not really using it in the kind of situations that the video really implies for both frames abilities. I also wasn't saying that either was objectively better than the other, although the video may have, which is something I decided to clarify in my Edit. I understand how Saryn is unique by not being a Crowd Control frame (in the sense that Vauban is, but Ash isn't because he just kills them all) but still scales INFINITELY off crowds because Toxin procs stack. I'm personally excited actually to get a Saryn someday and get to use the Ignis, which was I weapon I got to use a long time ago and really liked, despite it not being too good in that stage. I frankly say that they're equal simply because they may do similar things, but do it in unique ways. Use what you enjoy or want to use in Warframe. I also edited to add, I forgot to mention that the reason I still think Excalibur is good is simply because the x8 bonus stealth damage on blinded enemies is Finisher damage, which is why blinded enemies seem to die so easy.

Edited August 15, 2016 by TurtleOverseer

[TurtleOverseer]

1 hour ago, Obviousclone said:

there's no reason to argue goku vs superman

but it's fun, even if on the outside it looks like they're just slinging mud angrily at each other.

Amen. It's still fun to argue

[UltimateGrr]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

both frames are equally good at their respective roles. Excal is an excellent Warframe vs single heavy targets while Saryn is an amazing elemental caster.

I will admit that I am more of a Saryn lover, the main reasons being mass Viral Proc, a melee buff and the ability to regenerate 50HP per second with Regenerative Molt. all this together gives her good damage and great survivability. but Excal is still a great frame even after the nerf. EB still deals immense damage and radial Blind always has and always will turn crowds of heavies into easy kills. you could literally kill anything with Radial Blind + a Dagger with Covert Lethality.

debating which of two frames is better overall when they are totally different is only going to produce toxicity and division amongst the community. there is no "best frame".

Don't forget that RM scales with power strength.  At 145, you're regenerating over 70 hp per tick.

Anyway, my two cents.  In smaller engagements, like the average Extermination mission, Excalibur tends to have the DPS edge I feel.  Saryn takes a couple seconds to get going, while Excal is much faster off the mark.

After about the 6 minute mark in most high level endless missions, Saryn really starts putting on the pain, as there are usually enough mobs spawning that a good ranged Spore build can get multiple spawn groups at a time.  I've had minutes go by in ODS missions between Spore casts, as those toxic procs and spores kept bouncing around like meth addicted kangaroos.  Healer Ancients make it even better as all Toxin procs get a 150% multiplier when they get spread by spores, so they suck all the toxic procs from its accompanying horde, get's murdered by the combined proc DoT, and returns half again the combined proc to the entire horde.

[(PSN)official_79]

1 hour ago, Helch0rn said:

First of all:

The Guy whose video you refer to (not calling names) is biased when it comes to comparing Saryn to Excal.

He based his opinion on a build that is so bad that it hurts me on a physical level.

Saryn is able to melt level 150 enemies with ease if played properly

I came off my hiatus to say this, because im tired of people knocking on his build while being ignorant to the evidence presented to them.

That build was not even a true regular mission build, it was meant to get as much power as possible, he even stated this in the video if you listened.

He was entirely unbiased during the course of his video, even with all the power saryn could barely scratch the HP off high armor targets, he presented this in real time and I was able to easily replicate his result. 

Tried out a multitude of combinations with weapons, ability order, etc. and my results were the same.

The only time I was able to replicated similiar results to the "melting" she does was when I used it against butchers. Which have pretty much zero armor. Regardless of level, number of enemies, etc. She CAN melt them, provided they have no armor.

So the only way she can be truly effective late game is by running 4x Corrosive projection, which I have not tried out myself as of yet

[OkamiMilo]

Saryn , toxic damage Aaaand is one of my fav female frames and i love her desing

[DrBorris]

Want to hear something scary? Saryn+Mag+Gas Lanka...

 

It is almost anti-climactic how fast everything dies... one second enemies are all around you, the next everything is dead.

[TurtleOverseer]

9 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Want to hear something scary? Saryn+Mag+Gas Lanka...

Magnetize, Lanka shot, combine with Gas' Aoe Toxin, Saryn Spores, and Magnetize explosion to murder everything with pure AoE damage?

Sounds cool

[Leavith]

Okay I am gonna explain the way I see this saryn vs excal but I am give you a sort of step by step on how I see them.

1.all warframes have a maximum potential that is derived by what the warframe can do and how well is upgraded

2.This maximum potential can change by decreasing or increasing depending on the situation/scenario they are in

3.Now taking a look at this scenario we can also gives the warframe a based value as even if a warframe have alike roles they differ In how they are carried because some are easier to use then others.

4.Finally to concluded it all when we add the player in helps increases the value as we take account the player skills and experience with that warframe.BUT IN SOME CASES WE SOMEHOW GET PEOPLE THAT CAN CAUSE THE VALUE TO LOWER AS WELL AS POTENTIAL BECAUSE NOT ALL INTERNETS ARE MADE EQUAL AND NOT ALL BRAINS ARE MADE THE SAME.

SO now to apply this logic to Saryn vs Excal you can find it in the tag(WARNING SPOILERS YOU WILL BE CONFUSE)

their is no conclusion except this is kind of pointless argument since even if we get an answer it will only be in theory or a potential that exist which in all honesty none can match

 

1.They have an alike number such as

1000(this number could be X for all I care is really just a symbol that they are alike)

The reason why because both this warframe do the same job which is they server to kill enemies.

Something like this would be a simple formula

Warframe maximum potential=warframe abilities+warframe upgrades(this formula is trash it just exist to show that somehow this two things can be added together and give you a value that we really cannot measure as we have not really given any of this numbers that work in all situations)

2 & 3.Saryn and excal as said earlier both serve the same purpose which is why now I am sticking with 1000 to show that they can perform the same is just that the way they perform is different some are able to reach their based potential then other(looking at you spammy excal) which is why we must 1st differ if we are looking who those more damage overall or who those more damage individually.....OR FOR smiles and rainbows who is more useful at killing

so if we were to add this to look at this by steps

Excal-BLIND+EXALTED

Saryn-SOME WEIRD COMBINATION THAT I NEVER USE SINCE I DON"T OWN A SARYN BUT I AM SURE IS MORE STEPS THEN EXCALIBUR

Now this can make huge different if you don't believe me look at it this way

a gun can fire 1 bullet per sec and that bullet those 1000 damage they all have (we will call it GUN A and the other GUN B)

another gun can fire 2 bullet per sec and that bullet those 500 damage

Now you bring both guns too the same two scenario the 1st scenario requires you to fight enemies with 100hp so now ask yourself which gun is better for this situation? Gun B would be best since it can kill more then one enemy in 1 sec make it efficient at is job increasing is potential to be better

Now in scenario 2 the enemies your fighting all have 1000hp so now ask yourself which gun is better for this situation? Gun A would be best since Gun B requires two bullets to kill 1 enemy even and some will argue but it sends two bullets in the same amount of time ,and the counter argument it require more work making Gun A be more efficient at is job increasing is potential as well as value

Now I mention scenario  and showed you an example of what can also increase the actual value of a warframe since your not likely to bring a nekros for a spy mission over an ivara....Now if you wanted to test what the game really find more efficient and effective try this test for excal and Saryn which is simply send two specters loose in two different parts of the map monitor them and see how well the perform since their AI is similar as well as their role only differ just the way the execute their powers and when they execute their powers is you can have a control group that you can compare to whatever you wish to compare it to.

You want to know who would be better in DEFENSE release them both in a defense mission bring a Frost and Limbo send team to the rift and keep objective protected monitor them by using two lokis that can go invi and will not affect the way the AI interact with each other(NOTE KEEP BOTH FROST AND LIMBO INSIDE THE GLOBE AND RIFT AT ALL TIMES)

4.This well is different each player can bring out the largest potential in warframe such as I seen Oberon out damage and out kill a Excalibur BECAUSE

of the player experience.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Leavith

[(PSN)vamp6x6x6x]

I will always like Saryn more then Excalibur for the simple fact that I have seen very few people play Excalibur well...

I mean, it is usually annoying ultimate spam followed by almost instant bleeding out...

[FreezerFlare]

The only weak thing about saryn is her 3 which doesn't mesh too well with her kit. Unless you have Naramon getting close to enemies to make use of Toxic Lash is most of the time a bad move. Besides applying a toxin proc with it isn't even necessary because recasting and having molt detonate on enemies is a guaranteed toxic proc. Place Molt -> Place Spores -> Shoot Spores -> Detonate Molt -> Miasma for the long combo. Double Tap Molt -> Miasma for a faster but weaker combo

The only bad thing about excal is radial javelin because it doesn't synergize with his kit at all, Now that Draco is gone it's not even that useful because Nezha, Saryn and Banshee do his job of nuking so much better.

[Vesiga]

3 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

First of all:

The Guy whose video you refer to (not calling names) is biased when it comes to comparing Saryn to Excal.

He based his opinion on a build that is so bad that it hurts me on a physical level.

Saryn is able to melt level 150 enemies with ease if played properly

 

FTFY

 

3 hours ago, ArchangelusAlpharius said:

Saryn has literally infinite scaling damage. In other words, regardless of level, even if its 9999, given enough enemies to spread ebolaids Spores to, they will die.

Hail Saryn <3 

[Jicematoro]

1 hour ago, (PS4)official_79 said:

I came off my hiatus to say this, because im tired of people knocking on his build while being ignorant to the evidence presented to them.

That build was not even a true regular mission build, it was meant to get as much power as possible, he even stated this in the video if you listened.

He was entirely unbiased during the course of his video, even with all the power saryn could barely scratch the HP off high armor targets, he presented this in real time and I was able to easily replicate his result. 

Tried out a multitude of combinations with weapons, ability order, etc. and my results were the same.

The only time I was able to replicated similiar results to the "melting" she does was when I used it against butchers. Which have pretty much zero armor. Regardless of level, number of enemies, etc. She CAN melt them, provided they have no armor.

So the only way she can be truly effective late game is by running 4x Corrosive projection, which I have not tried out myself as of yet

Saryn needs a gas weapon to Spread spores to do S#&amp;&#036;, which can only be achieved with multiple enemies to spread spores with one another, he used a single enemy without a Gas weapon and called it a day, he wasn't biased, he just had no clue how to properly Saryn, and blamed it on her (or maybe he did know, and purposefully ignored it to make a point...)

Edited August 15, 2016 by Jicematoro

[(PSN)official_79]

9 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

Saryn needs a gas weapon to Spread spores to do S#&amp;&#036;, which can only be achieved with multiple enemies to spread spores with one another, he used a single enemy without a Gas weapon and called it a day, he wasn't biased, he just had no clue how to properly Saryn, and blamed it on her (or maybe he did know, and purposefully ignored it to make a point...)

I also figured that multiple enemies are required to achieve a good result, similiar to old Mag. No how hard I tried to achieve a satisfying result, I could not (unless you count the butchers I tested on). At level 100, when using a mix of heavy gunners and trash mobs, I found her survivability took a huge drop the higher level they were. No matter how many times I could duck and weave the horde would kill me before I could kill them.

You must also take into account the amount of steps required to make her an effective frame and you must ask yourself, is this a case of synergy or dependency?

You see synergy happens when multiple abilities which are fine on their own come together to achieve fantastic results (example being exalted blade and radial blind)

While dependency is when abilities cannot function on their own and require more abilities/weapons to be effective. (example being Miasma, on its own it is a terrible ability, and needs the setup of her other abilities and the weapons you are using to be effective, pretty stale outcome for a so called "ultimate")

[Jicematoro]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)official_79 said:

I also figured that multiple enemies are required to achieve a good result, similiar to old Mag. No how hard I tried to achieve a satisfying result, I could not (unless you count the butchers I tested on). At level 100, when using a mix of heavy gunners and trash mobs, I found her survivability took a huge drop the higher level they were. No matter how many times I could duck and weave the horde would kill me before I could kill them.

You must also take into account the amount of steps required to make her an effective frame and you must ask yourself, is this a case of synergy or dependency?

You see synergy happens when multiple abilities which are fine on their own come together to achieve fantastic results (example being exalted blade and radial blind)

While dependency is when abilities cannot function on their own and require more abilities/weapons to be effective. (example being Miasma, on its own it is a terrible ability, and needs the setup of her other abilities and the weapons you are using to be effective, pretty stale outcome for a so called "ultimate")

Saryn takes time to get going we know as much, and of course, you need some effort to keep yourself alive on higher levels, that's no news, but it pays off in the long run (Also, a Molt can help aliviate the Damage while you're running away, as it draws all the aggro)

He did the equivalent of Exalted blade without a Melee with his Saryn Prime and tried to prove a point...

Edited August 15, 2016 by Jicematoro

[Xzorn]

 "Saryn will never out perform an excalibur that close to an enemy especially when it comes to dps on a single target, this is true. "

Whoever said this was a dumbo.

A melee Naramon Saryn has higher DPS than Naramon Excal.

Saryn = 200k DPS + 13k 24m Spore Explosions with Viral Procs, effectively doubling her Damage.

Naramon Excalibur 185k DPS close, ~90k at max range.

Excal will win in kills per minute at lower levels but post lvl 120 Saryn will win since she's still cutting through enemies like butter thanks to Viral procs.

Saryn's Melee is just about her best build right now. I've taken her to lvl 340 T4 Void solo. Higher level you go Venom Dose Spores support.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Xzorn

[Rakosta_Kai]

Crap like this is divisive at it's core and I wish it wasn't a thing.

Debating which is better is pointless as they are both good.

...If all a player is doing is min-maxing, I don't see this helping.

Most Excal players are having fun playing Excal. 

Most Saryn players are having fun playing Saryn.

The rest just seems like some slick attempt to pump up someone's youtube content views to me.

[DrakoKnight48]

I'm sorry, but what's the point of comparing the two? Like why? 

[Marvelous_A]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 "Saryn will never out perform an excalibur that close to an enemy especially when it comes to dps on a single target, this is true. "

Whoever said this was a dumbo.

A melee Naramon Saryn has higher DPS than Naramon Excal.

Saryn = 200k DPS + 13k 24m Spore Explosions with Viral Procs, effectively doubling her Damage.

Naramon Excalibur 185k DPS close, ~90k at max range.

Excal will win in kills per minute at lower levels but post lvl 120 Saryn will win since she's still cutting through enemies like butter thanks to Viral procs.

Saryn's Melee is just about her best build right now. I've taken her to lvl 340 T4 Void solo. Higher level you go Venom Dose Spores support.

How do you calculate the damage? Sounds unlikely as Excalibur can perform execution with RB which ignore armor, has innate buff of sword damage and a RB augment for increasing execution damage. IMO the greatest advantage of Excalibur compared to Saryn is decent DPS with good CC ability. They both deal overkill damage anyway.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said:

How do you calculate the damage? Sounds unlikely as Excalibur can perform execution with RB which ignore armor, has innate buff of sword damage and a RB augment for increasing execution damage. IMO the greatest advantage of Excalibur compared to Saryn is decent DPS with good CC ability. They both deal overkill damage anyway.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:942136This is a link to a wiki forum post I made for Excal comparing Naramon and Madurai. It has his Naramon DPS calculations though they're based on In-game numbers so they're a bit off since I last calculated them on paper and since then Primed Pressure Point was added. So it's gone up since then.

DPS = (Damage per attack) * [ 1 + ( critical multiplier - 1 ) * critical chance / 100 ] * RoF 

The basic formula for melee DPS though in this case it requires alternations for stealth and buff modifiers.

DPS = ([Damage per attack * Buffs] * Stealth) * [ 1 + ( critical multiplier - 1 ) * critical chance / 100 ] * RoF

The Primary reasons Saryn has higher DPS is due to her Toxic Lash buff. It multiplies her base damage by 1.56 then the result is multiplied again by the Stealth bonus giving quadruple the effect.

Excalibur's EB stance has 100% and 110% damage multipliers and it's generally easy to calculate since the combos suck you just spam auto attacks. Tempo Stance has 100% to 250% and Whirlwind Stance 400%. Each stance also hits multiple times with one rotation. It's hard to get a perfect number on Stance DPS because of the various animation speeds and varied attacks per swing.

I basically did a quick version by getting her buffed damage per swing while stealth and at x3 combo and filtering it through an avg multiplier on the stance combo I was  using. Her Spores DPS is simply taking her Stealth modified Toxic damage, converting it through her spores and multiply it by her RoF.

Really in terms of damage the only thing Excal has over Saryn since his nerf, is mobility. Execution attacks will actually slow his kill rate until maybe lvl 150. Saryn's Viral proc effectively doubling her damage output carries her pretty far by comparison. Execution attacks prolly won't catch up till lvl 200-250.

Here's some high end damage examples using War at x3 combo, normal crits only.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Xzorn

[Marvelous_A]

10 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

-snip-

I see but I think Excalibur is still potentially capable to do more damage in 1-hit mostly because he has an augment which can increase execution damage by at least 300%, which can be further increased to 900% with max power strength, Toxic Lash however only increase damage by roughly 90% at max power strength. Viral proc is just a proc so theoretically Excalibur can do this too. But the augment is exclusive to Excalibur.

Also, execution although dealing the max damage, is not efficient, a more practical way will be using RB and dealing damage with EB waves. If a room is full of enemies IMO Excalibur may actually clear the room faster, as Saryn highly relies on DoT not immediate damage. Tho all these are just theory and bear nearly no significance in actual gameplay, In fact I think neither of them will have any problem dealing with high level enemies.

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

8 hours ago, OzoneSlayer said:

You mean half their health? And I would argue that covert lethality actually does scale infinitely

That's the viral part about spores. But, spores also spread poison damage to enemies affected by spores, and poison itself scales by dealing 50% of the bullet damage in about 8 ticks,  and you can stack the toxic damage to a target. You can stack it to a single enemy, but that's the point of spores, spread the toxic procs between groups op enemies.
Now, if we talk about gas damage + spores. It just clear rooms like mirage were blinding enemies with her prisma :s

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

4 hours ago, (PS4)official_79 said:

I also figured that multiple enemies are required to achieve a good result, similiar to old Mag. No how hard I tried to achieve a satisfying result, I could not (unless you count the butchers I tested on). At level 100, when using a mix of heavy gunners and trash mobs, I found her survivability took a huge drop the higher level they were. No matter how many times I could duck and weave the horde would kill me before I could kill them.

You must also take into account the amount of steps required to make her an effective frame and you must ask yourself, is this a case of synergy or dependency?

You see synergy happens when multiple abilities which are fine on their own come together to achieve fantastic results (example being exalted blade and radial blind)

While dependency is when abilities cannot function on their own and require more abilities/weapons to be effective. (example being Miasma, on its own it is a terrible ability, and needs the setup of her other abilities and the weapons you are using to be effective, pretty stale outcome for a so called "ultimate")

actually, if moded and used correctly, Saryn can fight high level heavy units (over level 110) without dying (at close range).
*over 160 power strenght, rage, vitality, steel fiber, regenerative molt are part of a build that can make saryn survive with ease at close range*
She is way harder to use than excal, but it is worth the effort. Usually you activate toxic lash before getting close to a group of enemies, as you get close use the block button and cast spores on varius units before getting at close to them. When you are close enough perform a combo, and if you get aggro at the point you can get killed, cast Miasma and then inmediatly cast molt to regenerate health, if your toxic lash is running out, refresh it and cast some more spores (if you can, cast spores in the middle of your combo strings) you won't even need primed flow as you will get tons of energy from the damage you get, but as you block the damage, you won't get killed. 
Basically Miasma will do a little CC (enough to take a breath and heal yourself and refresh your abilities) at the same time it deals damage. You will usually cast it so much that along with the HP reduction of spores + the poison stacks (which increase as your melee counter increases) + the damage itself from your melee weapons. You will just melt rooms of high level enemies with ease.

I love both excal and saryn, but Saryn is more hardcore to use lol

[Xzorn]

51 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

I see but I think Excalibur is still potentially capable to do more damage in 1-hit mostly because he has an augment which can increase execution damage by at least 300%, which can be further increased to 900% with max power strength, Toxic Lash however only increase damage by roughly 90% at max power strength. Viral proc is just a proc so theoretically Excalibur can do this too. But the augment is exclusive to Excalibur.

Also, execution although dealing the max damage, is not efficient, a more practical way will be using RB and dealing damage with EB waves. If a room is full of enemies IMO Excalibur may actually clear the room faster, as Saryn highly relies on DoT not immediate damage. Tho all these are just theory and bear nearly no significance in actual gameplay, In fact I think neither of them will have any problem dealing with high level enemies.

The original thing I quoted said DPS. I'm not arguing that Excal can do more damage in a single hit. I'm arguing the DPS. Excal does like 7-8 mil with EB finishers so that's not really in question.

Toxic Lash gives +90% max at base but after Stealth modifiers the bonus damage is x4 larger.

Every time you hit the enemy without a Viral proc it reduces the bonus it gives. A melee weapon is basically never as good.

A melee Saryn doesn't really rely on DoTs.at all, it's all front end damage like in the pics I showed. She just swings for monster damage and part of that gets turned into free AoE from Spores, usually 10-15k per swing per target in a 23m radius.