Berserker (and now Naramon) has forever ruined the design of melee weapons

[Aktriaz]

17 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

and how is this a problem , how is crit chance itself a problem

the whole point of  this game and its mod system is to make weapons do more damage so how is crit chance  flawed to begin with ?

it is optional as well if you hate crit chance then dont use berserk,blood rush,true steel and organ shatter 

 

the only flaw i see with the damage system is that   they all share a same pool to such extent that even status procs  need crit  for maxing damage as well and that is where stuff like lesion with blood rush  gain  ludicrous damage 

It's not that I hate crit. Please pay more attention to my wording.

Berserker (and Naramon) were not in this game since it began. There was a time when people actually modded a crit purely for a crit. People didn't mod their weapons with proc-ing Berserker or Shadowstep in mind.

My problem is that Crit is a vastly superior path to go down than anything else you can do. Damage, speed and by extent frequency corrosive procs (damage dealt doesn't matter; only times proc'd) are all why a crit-focused build rules. And the devs know this, and every weapon they design as an "end-game" weapon can crit reliably.

I want this game to have diversity. I want their to be advantages to prioritizing status, raw damage, or crit over one another. I don't want one to be outright better than the other.

12 minutes ago, DSpite said:

I don't see why I need to care.

It's not PvP, so if one weapon is somewhat better then another, It's not as if we are going head to head and I lose because you have a 15% DPS advantage. Also, we don't spend hours in Endless missions with ever increasing enemies, so really, why care at all?

This whole "whats the point of using weapon X when weapon Y kills 10% faster" is getting boring, frankly.

Just use whatever the hek you like best.

Powercreep is a serious issue that CAN and WILL affect player freedom.
The more powerful items we get, the more "we" whine about the game being to easy.
Then we get giant bullets sponges with OHKO attacks. You know. For engaging gameplay.
Then, only the best items are permitted. Anything else loses traction and is barely usable.

Weapons are especially vulnerable to powercreep because it's harder to have them be incomparable, unlike warframes and their unique powers.

With the introduction of Galatine Prime, I might as well sell my Scindo Prime and War, because Galatine Prime is superior is literally every way.
If, however, Galatine Prime had only 10% crit chance, the crit/berserker/naramon viability of ScindoP/War would have them remain viable options, and semi-incomparable.

Yes, nothing will stop me from using War because I like it's look better, but either way some people are going to brag about how good their GalatineP is and then proceed to laugh at how easy the game is, and the Devs, wanting to have people still be interested and challenged in their game, will "balance" the game according to the highest powers. Then my War will become increasingly less viable until I can't bring it to new content with a sane head.

Does this not seem wrong to you?

[13QZXXTTX]

Variation in the end game, I think you mean level 100. If I were to bring out Telos Boltace in the end game, I bet you would laugh at me.

Status weapon are nice, but you really want them if you do not spin them fast enough? The major problem I did have with Boltace is nothing is wrong with it, but will Damage 3.0 fix the Status effects versus Crit that is working great?

Crit: Working great, that why everyone want it!

Status: Not much going for it, except for the effect, reason why people a bit have it as a good compliment on their crits.

I do enjoy the crits build, but having Beserker help me speed a bit when I do Volt, because another Fury is not an options some time. Prefer to go fast if my weapons can not take out the mobs in time. Would do fast build if I had the choice, using [War] require speed, so I rather prefer Berserker as it fit the Heavy Weapon. You think 15% is the minimal? Well if you think Melee is that so limited, you have to see Secondary.

Honestly, Secondaries is some what alright, but there is mainly Status base, than a good crits (30%~35%) weapon.

 

Side Notes: 15% is not amazing, 20% is decent then, yeah I heard people complain the War is no longer OP? That is their choice.

 

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, LabMan95 said:

I'll just be a noob and shank enemies in the ankles with my Karyst. You guys think a good dagger is coming out soon so covert can be busted next?

Karyst is a pretty solid choice.  Pretty good balance between proc availability and outstanding E-spam damage, which only gets better with CL.  

[Myamsa]

Now here's my opinion

Crit weapon = good but suck facing high level enemies with lotta armor

Status weapon = good at scaling but need to be proc first

now onto the stance:

Stance on warframe basically like combo on other games like DmC when you just need a right timing / some extra button like RMB. if u install mod like berserker onto crit weapon, you cant get the right timing pretty much cause of the fast animation, so melee just like pressing e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e all over again

now onto the META:

Shadow step Naramon actually kinda OP right now. I fully agree with you naramon or berserker need complete rework mechanic, on top of that, power creep weapon like Galatine prime is dominating right now

"UUUHHH BUT GALATINE PRIME IS MR13 WEAPON!"

Stradavar also MR7-8 weapon and its sucks a lot, at least DE please give some drawback to that weapon so every weapon or warframe has its own weakness like slower attack speed maybe?

[(PSN)dcYeezy]

On 24/08/2016 at 6:46 AM, Genitive said:

I think it's not the problem that crit weapons are overpowered, but rather everything else is lacking. Like we have red crits, but no over-100% status effects. 

And because Lacera is great.

Agree, Lacera is amazing and at 100% status is absolutely brutal when you use the correct elements against the matching faction.

But some form of +100% would be great!

[Vohim]

On 8/26/2016 at 1:23 AM, Actriaz said:

It's not that I hate crit. Please pay more attention to my wording.

Berserker (and Naramon) were not in this game since it began. There was a time when people actually modded a crit purely for a crit. People didn't mod their weapons with proc-ing Berserker or Shadowstep in mind.

My problem is that Crit is a vastly superior path to go down than anything else you can do. Damage, speed and by extent frequency corrosive procs (damage dealt doesn't matter; only times proc'd) are all why a crit-focused build rules. And the devs know this, and every weapon they design as an "end-game" weapon can crit reliably.

I want this game to have diversity. I want their to be advantages to prioritizing status, raw damage, or crit over one another. I don't want one to be outright better than the other.

Powercreep is a serious issue that CAN and WILL affect player freedom.
The more powerful items we get, the more "we" whine about the game being to easy.
Then we get giant bullets sponges with OHKO attacks. You know. For engaging gameplay.
Then, only the best items are permitted. Anything else loses traction and is barely usable.

Weapons are especially vulnerable to powercreep because it's harder to have them be incomparable, unlike warframes and their unique powers.

With the introduction of Galatine Prime, I might as well sell my Scindo Prime and War, because Galatine Prime is superior is literally every way.
If, however, Galatine Prime had only 10% crit chance, the crit/berserker/naramon viability of ScindoP/War would have them remain viable options, and semi-incomparable.

Yes, nothing will stop me from using War because I like it's look better, but either way some people are going to brag about how good their GalatineP is and then proceed to laugh at how easy the game is, and the Devs, wanting to have people still be interested and challenged in their game, will "balance" the game according to the highest powers. Then my War will become increasingly less viable until I can't bring it to new content with a sane head.

Does this not seem wrong to you?

i do agree with naramon trivializing combat  greatly but not so much with berserk because if it wasnt for berserk most of the 2 handed weapons wouldnt even be considered options today asides from being used once for mastery fodder ,  for example fragor prime it is so slow it  nearly mandatory requires both primed fury and berserk  unless you got a valkyr 

 

in terms of raw stats sure galatine has the  highest but you also ignore the fact it is slash damage  wich is greatly reduced against  grineer and isnt effective against shields 

whereas War by being impact damage  has 2 25% resistances and   has 50% damage  against  shields 

[owendawgx]

You mean you don't just want reskins of the same weapon with each new release?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

(I agree)

[Vohim]

 i do agree that they need to add more  weapon variety as a whole not just in damage types  for example look at Sparring weapons  theres only Kogake and Obex 

 

this year  its been nothing but  2 handed heavies  focused on  crit 

 

and the horror that was Stradavar 

 

Sarpa was definetly a great addition 

Edited August 28, 2016 by Retepzednem

[zehne]

4 hours ago, Retepzednem said:

in terms of raw stats sure galatine has the  highest but you also ignore the fact it is slash damage  wich is greatly reduced against  grineer and isnt effective against shields 

whereas War by being impact damage  has 2 25% resistances and   has 50% damage  against  shields 

You ignore the fact that Slash procs deal FINISHER damage.  You also ignore the fact that Galatine Prime is a status monster.  It doesn't matter that some units 'take less damage' from slash, because slash procs more than make up the difference.

Killed a 120 bombard in half the time with scindo prime that with War.  Repeated the test in Simulcron many times. Considering the huge downside to slash vs 'alloy armor', isn't it a mystery why a lower damage lower status chance weapon killed an enemy with higher damage resistance in half the time?

Spoiler

No it's not, it's because while both weapons did 'joke damage', the slash procs did all the heavy lifting.  Impact and puncture heavy weapons don't get these magical damage boosts all that often.

I'm not talking about taking a half modded War or half modded Galatine Prime into a T4 fissure.  I'm talking about sortie 3 and higher level enemies vs 'the best' weapon lineups (base weapons modded to maximization).  At the high end, slash trumps all others because of status.

Melee weapons at the top tier all have decent status amounts (especially if you use weeping wounds).  This significantly increases the damage output of slash weapons.  Puncture and Impact weapons which don't benefit from weeping wounds( or almost no benefit) do not.  People compare apples to oranges, but for w/e reason they mod apples the way they mod their oranges.

Stick weeping wounds on a slash weapon like G Prime in place of that 60% crit mod and watch as:

• " Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage, which bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances. Multiple instances of Bleed may be stacked on the same target. If the proc occurs off of a headshot or critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier and/or headshot multiplier respectively. "

 

Oh-wait that solves the mystery right there.  The proc doesn't give a S#&$ about the 3trillion armor or damage type resistance or shields.  Impact may be better for destroying shields, but slash doesn't even care about it.

 

[Vohim]

8 hours ago, zehne said:

You ignore the fact that Slash procs deal FINISHER damage.  You also ignore the fact that Galatine Prime is a status monster.  It doesn't matter that some units 'take less damage' from slash, because slash procs more than make up the difference.

Killed a 120 bombard in half the time with scindo prime that with War.  Repeated the test in Simulcron many times. Considering the huge downside to slash vs 'alloy armor', isn't it a mystery why a lower damage lower status chance weapon killed an enemy with higher damage resistance in half the time?

  Reveal hidden contents

No it's not, it's because while both weapons did 'joke damage', the slash procs did all the heavy lifting.  Impact and puncture heavy weapons don't get these magical damage boosts all that often.

I'm not talking about taking a half modded War or half modded Galatine Prime into a T4 fissure.  I'm talking about sortie 3 and higher level enemies vs 'the best' weapon lineups (base weapons modded to maximization).  At the high end, slash trumps all others because of status.

Melee weapons at the top tier all have decent status amounts (especially if you use weeping wounds).  This significantly increases the damage output of slash weapons.  Puncture and Impact weapons which don't benefit from weeping wounds( or almost no benefit) do not.  People compare apples to oranges, but for w/e reason they mod apples the way they mod their oranges.

Stick weeping wounds on a slash weapon like G Prime in place of that 60% crit mod and watch as:

• " Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed, a DoT (damage-over-time effect) that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds) as Finishing damage, which bypasses shields and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances. Multiple instances of Bleed may be stacked on the same target. If the proc occurs off of a headshot or critical hit, the Bleed ticks are also multiplied by critical damage multiplier and/or headshot multiplier respectively. "

 

Oh-wait that solves the mystery right there.  The proc doesn't give a S#&$ about the 3trillion armor or damage type resistance or shields.  Impact may be better for destroying shields, but slash doesn't even care about it.

 

but unlike stuff like Gas damage Slash  Procs do not scale off of  slash  so if you give 3 slash mods to a weapon    it may have 2000 slash damage  but its slash procs will only account to the weapon's base 165 base damage  the only thing that buffs slash proc damage is  basically pressure point and Spoiled strike and the 60% aura but if you chose said aura you would give up something like  Corrosive projection  thus trading  direct damage for status 

 

if you want to play the slash damage OP  game then i regret to inform you  Lesion would be the god tier weapon as it  has 30% base status chance and is a  staff or whatever like orthos with 75  base slash damage   wich maybe lower than galatine but it has  way superior speed and multi hit   thus it puts galatine to shame in the  Slash proc department  give it a kavat crit buff and watch the bleeding     damage  ramp  up to hell 

i have had bleeding ticks of up to 400k a second  

Edited August 28, 2016 by Retepzednem

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, Retepzednem said:

but unlike stuff like Gas damage Slash  Procs do not scale off of  slash  

All damage procs ignore elemental mods when calculating their damage.  Adding more Gas damage does not boost the damage of your Gas proc at all.  

[Vohim]

23 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

All damage procs ignore elemental mods when calculating their damage.  Adding more Gas damage does not boost the damage of your Gas proc at all.  

 

Wiki:

 

More specifically, a  Gas proc has 2 separate instances of damage:

1. All enemies within 5 meters as well as the initial target receive  Toxin damage depending on the weapon's physical and  Toxin damage. (1/2 * (Physical +  Toxin) Dmg )
2. Additionally, they get inflicted with a  Toxin DoT that deals 125% of the initial  Toxin damage per tick (9 ticks in 8seconds).

Because both instances of the  Gas proc include the weapon's  Toxin damage, emphasizing on  Toxin mods will have a greater effect than  Heat mods.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Retepzednem

[RealPandemonium]

43 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

 

Wiki:

 

More specifically, a  Gas proc has 2 separate instances of damage:

1. All enemies within 5 meters as well as the initial target receive  Toxin damage depending on the weapon's physical and  Toxin damage. (1/2 * (Physical +  Toxin) Dmg )
2. Additionally, they get inflicted with a  Toxin DoT that deals 125% of the initial  Toxin damage per tick (9 ticks in 8seconds).

Because both instances of the  Gas proc include the weapon's  Toxin damage, emphasizing on  Toxin mods will have a greater effect than  Heat mods.

Just confirmed that this is in effect with all kinds of damaging elemental procs.  They must have slipped this in in one of the recent patches, of course with no patch notes.  Classic DE; not sure if this is a bug or intended.  

[Lyravain]

I would agree with this, if we could find a way to enhance the experience with other weapon types (status, charge, base damage, channeling) WITHOUT weakening crit-based weaponry.

Though, yes, Berserk's absurd.

[Vohim]

2 minutes ago, Lyravain said:

I would agree with this, if we could find a way to enhance the experience with other weapon types (status, charge, base damage, channeling) WITHOUT weakening crit-based weaponry.

Though, yes, Berserk's absurd.

on some weapons yes but in some cases it makes  unviable weapons  into viable options  specially for those without  Primed Fury 

[Lyravain]

15 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

on some weapons yes but in some cases it makes  unviable weapons  into viable options  specially for those without  Primed Fury 

Really? So you mean to say we can't have weapons that deal even more damage on charge attacks than normal, or charge faster? You mean to tell me that it's impossible to make some weapons possess vastly different channeling statistics? or that DE can't make a weapon with near-absurd base damage but exceedingly low critical chance and critical damage? In all of those cases, there are mods to remedy that (Maiming Strike, for example), but that's good. What's bad is that there's an alarming shortage of mods that would help you build for anything but critical+berserk.

Gimme mods that ensure Status on, say Ground Slam (much like Maiming Strike). Gimme mods that raise my Channeling damage and take down my Critical chance. Gimme mods to outright buff my Charge attacks.

That way, we'd be able to build any way we want, on any weapon. You want Galatine with Charge Attacks? Why not. You want Orthos with critical? Sure!

The point I'm trying to make is; don't nerf criticals, buff everything else.

[Vohim]

8 hours ago, Lyravain said:

Really? So you mean to say we can't have weapons that deal even more damage on charge attacks than normal, or charge faster? You mean to tell me that it's impossible to make some weapons possess vastly different channeling statistics? or that DE can't make a weapon with near-absurd base damage but exceedingly low critical chance and critical damage? In all of those cases, there are mods to remedy that (Maiming Strike, for example), but that's good. What's bad is that there's an alarming shortage of mods that would help you build for anything but critical+berserk.

Gimme mods that ensure Status on, say Ground Slam (much like Maiming Strike). Gimme mods that raise my Channeling damage and take down my Critical chance. Gimme mods to outright buff my Charge attacks.

That way, we'd be able to build any way we want, on any weapon. You want Galatine with Charge Attacks? Why not. You want Orthos with critical? Sure!

The point I'm trying to make is; don't nerf criticals, buff everything else.

agreed ,was pretty much my point  

[Spergin_McBadposter]

10 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Just confirmed that this is in effect with all kinds of damaging elemental procs.  They must have slipped this in in one of the recent patches, of course with no patch notes.  Classic DE; not sure if this is a bug or intended.  

Nah it was already working like this when I started playing again months ago. Couldn't spot the wiki revision from the history page to see exactly when that was patched in though.

[TaylorsContraction]

On 08/28/2016 at 0:07 PM, Retepzednem said:

but unlike stuff like Gas damage Slash  Procs do not scale off of  slash  so if you give 3 slash mods to a weapon    it may have 2000 slash damage  but its slash procs will only account to the weapon's base 165 base damage  the only thing that buffs slash proc damage is  basically pressure point and Spoiled strike and the 60% aura but if you chose said aura you would give up something like  Corrosive projection  thus trading  direct damage for status 

 

if you want to play the slash damage OP  game then i regret to inform you  Lesion would be the god tier weapon as it  has 30% base status chance and is a  staff or whatever like orthos with 75  base slash damage   wich maybe lower than galatine but it has  way superior speed and multi hit   thus it puts galatine to shame in the  Slash proc department  give it a kavat crit buff and watch the bleeding     damage  ramp  up to hell 

i have had bleeding ticks of up to 400k a second  

Slash procs scale of crits, if you're actually using melee with body count and blood rush, 10k slash procs easily with g prime. Slash procs with crit is the god of death. Furthermore gas procs don't bypass shields anymore, only toxin damage does.

[voltocitygel]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Slash procs scale of crits, if you're actually using melee with body count and blood rush, 10k slash procs easily with g prime. Slash procs with crit is the god of death. Furthermore gas procs don't bypass shields anymore, only toxin damage does.

Yep. Slash procs scale off of damage, and  I thought gas procs just created toxin clouds? So toxin DoT should still bypass shields, unless I missed the change. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I guess I am in the minority of preferring Primed Fury over Berserker for Melee.

Mainly because if I accidentally trigger a single-target finisher I want it sped-up.

(I could be wrong, but my testing showed Berserker was not applying track speed buff to finisher animations)

 

Critical chance on Melee to me is currently irrelevant as every Melee weapon seems crit & status viable...unless only looking at Thrown Glaive mechanic or Gun blade charged shot mechanic.

(Weeping Wounds allows for any melee weapon to be contribute Status proc)

Crit status...well I run Arcane Avenger (Blood Rush easily allows Red Crits) & then there is Charm and Cat's eye

I'm seeing Red Crits and still prefer Primed Fury over Berserker.

Naramon focus is more useful than Berserker itself.

Personally I have switched to Vazarin tree for the New Moon Revives as I find that more team friendly especially with people's squishy kavats. Also makes revive duty easy if plenty of AoE damage is around like sapping osprey pucks... Naramon Shadowstep not so much.

I don't see too many players on PS4 using Naramon focus recently. I want to say the new Void Fissures have greatly reduced the ability and usefulness of activating the Focus Passives.

TL;DR : I don't agree that Berserker nor Naramon have ruined melee weapon design. As new Mission farming isn't catered towards the lengthy Focus cooldown of Naramon. Due to mod slot capacity I think Berserker vs Primed Fury is user preference.

 

Perhaps DE will rebalance the Focus Passives/cool downs: Potentially Naramon Shadowstep could remain with current cooldown, but Deadly intent & Strategic Execution could be actual Passives from mission start

Vazarin could have Retaliation & Disciplined Approach be always active passives

Zenurik could have the Systemic Override & Energy Spike as active passives

Unairu could have Stone Shape & Mighty Blows as active passives

Madurai...I'm unsure as I feel the tree needs more work than the others. I suppose Searing Wrath & Burning Rage could be always on Passives

Always on would indicate no Focus Cooldown