Loki - The one and a half trick pony (With pics!)

[Sunder]

When you think of Loki in Warframe...what's the first thing that pops into your head?

Invisibility right?

Now I know there's some of you that thought of "Radial Disarm" and for that, I commend you. But the majority of Loki users seem to focus JUST on his 2nd ability. Even forgoing any other stats and building purely for duration. Which hey, let's be honest here and admit that it IS useful. Never being a target...bonus damage cause you're not seen. It's awesome.

But I can't help but feel Loki is a "One and a half trick pony".

I say that because while most people utilize invisibility, others try to make use of his radial disarm. However the energy cost and the nuisance of having to keep casting it over and over due to your demi-god allies murdering the faces of the enemies becomes a hassle and most of them fall off the wagon of repeatedly casting it on freshly spawned, gun wielding, hostiles.

My proposed changes are for his 1st and 3rd ability. Hoping to keep in line with Loki being the god of Mischief and trickery.

 

 DECOY

Spoiler

 

SWITCH TELEPORT

Spoiler

 

Now these ideas are NOT for augments.

Rather changes directly to his current abilities in hopes of altering some people from only modding for invisibility and further make Loki a master of distraction, deception, sabotage, relocation and stealth.

SO THEN...thoughts? Opinions? Input?

(Don't forget to click that little upvote arrow if you support these changes! Get it noticed!)

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sunder
Adjusted text to better reflect ideas discussed here and on the reddit page

[Rorgal_Sina]

I'd actually really want to get Loki again if Loki gets these changes. He's a God-tier frame, but wasn't exactly interactive.

[KirukaChan]

That Switch Teleport idea is amazing and I want it. A lot.

Decoy I'm not so sure about. A solution might just be as simple as giving it a temporary invincibility window like Iron Skin or Snow Globe have. The problem with relying on multiple casts like what you suggested is that it further pigeonholes the players into building for max efficiency all the time.

[LambertExe]

These are excellent suggestions, would make Loki something more than perma-invis, disarming bot.

[Vactro]

I love both your ideas! Hope DE reads them

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

I keep decoy up until it's duration ends in 2h survivals, it's all about placement. It's a first ability and fits it's very low energy cost.

The only issue I have with switch teleport is that stun animation. As far as your suggestion, I would rather see a confusion proc on the enemy I casted the ability on and remove the stunimation. "Blending in with the enemy" upon teleport seems overkill.

[Sunder]

1 minute ago, KirukaChan said:

That Switch Teleport idea is amazing and I want it. A lot.

Decoy I'm not so sure about. A solution might just be as simple as giving it a temporary invincibility window like Iron Skin or Snow Globe have. The problem with relying on multiple casts like what you suggested is that it further pigeonholes the players into building for max efficiency all the time.

Well we had the decoy based on duration only at one point. That just resulted in enemies crowding around it and Loki being built for duration and nothing else.

As for efficiency and the cost...decoy is pretty cheap to cast. Could always follow the route of Atlas, that subsequent casts cost half?

[--Sokol]

Quite innovative ideas.

Only change I'd make, for the sake of balance, is that the first ability should have a limit to how many decoys you can queue. Otherwise, with high energy pool and high efficiency you could easily spam first ability to no end.

[Misgenesis]

14 minutes ago, Sunder said:

But the majority of Loki users seem to focus JUST on his 2nd ability.

Ie. bad Loki players.

Loki could use some work because of his two outdated and two other trivializing abilities. Switch Tele and Decoy are useless and i wouldnt mind if they were replaced altogether, i do like your Switch Tele idea though.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Misgenesis

[Sunder]

Just now, --Sokol said:

Quite innovative ideas.

Only change I'd make, for the sake of balance, is that the first ability should have a limit to how many decoys you can queue. Otherwise, with high energy pool and high efficiency you could easily spam first ability to no end.

Derp...should've clarified that. The example shows 1 Decoy and 3 follow ups. Making for 4 total.

Of course with testing by DE and the community this could potentially be increased or decreased

[Sunder]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

I keep decoy up until it's duration ends in 2h survivals, it's all about placement. It's a first ability and fits it's very low energy cost.

The only issue I have with switch teleport is that stun animation. As far as your suggestion, I would rather see a confusion proc on the enemy I casted the ability on and remove the stunimation. "Blending in with the enemy" upon teleport seems overkill.

Like I said, trying to place a decoy in a location that enemies can't see/get to isn't a fun strategy for most.

Bugging it so it clips in the corner being a crate or something just seems..."unsportsmanlike" if you will. Surely not its intended use by dev's. But you are right, if the enemies are melee units, or if the loki is actively disarming them over and over a well placed decoy can distract them enough to help you and your team mates out.  What I don't like about this though? The time it'd take to do all this. Cloaking and disarming first, and then trying to place said decoy in a spot to alter enemy movement AND out of reach of enemies. As the game has grown it's become rather fast paced. Specially in high level missions when everyone's rushing to dodge, kill, and survive.

As for the Switch Teleport and blending in being overkill, this would of course be balanced by DE. The disguise is not meant to last long like his invisibility. But more-so just get you behind enemy lines. Just long enough so their attention is turned to the other grineer you switched with. Think of it like Ivara's cloak, aside from running/sprinting, any combat or acrobatic action would shed the disguise.

Also it'd pretty much function the same as a "Confusion proc". Enemies see him, they shoot him, he shoots all of them. It's like casting chaos on a single enemy

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. For some reason I thought this forum would combine them automatically x_x

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sunder

[Bizzaro21]

another thing that sucks about decoy is that it isnt even anything close to looking like me, should be a copy paste using my currently equipped gun with 50% damage, so it can at the very least protect its own sorry @$$

im neutral about teleport, i use it to troll friends, stun VIPs and mobility with decoy when i cant reach somewhere or am too lazy to try

[LunarEdge7]

I love this so much. I only had a complaint about Decoy, but your idea on Switch Teleport being changed to this is.. beautiful.

Now I've some questions:

1. If given these choices, would you rather: his decoy get a temporary invincibility window and/or scaling ehp along with the enemy (i.e copy off a light mob like Grineer Lancer/Corpus Crewman), and/or have much higher health than it has now, or the idea you offered?

2. What would happen if you did Role Reversal then Invisibility? Would your disguise disappear but the enemy's switched role remain? Or would your disguise still remain?

3. Does Role Reversal work for allies as a normal Switch Teleport when you do want to use it that way? With or without the augment, it's quite useful in some situations.. (There are a few other abilities that have no choice but to have the potential to troll, anyway.. e.e) Maybe hold down the ability to toggle it between targeting an ally to an enemy for QoL?

If this idea does turn into reality in the future, I hope that after disarming them, then role reversing, that the enemy will show a holograph of Bo for the normal Loki and Bo Prime for Loki Prime, u.u (I forgot what other weapons came out at the same time as Loki and/or as a bundle/Loki's fav. weapon i.e Mirage's Akzani and Frost's Latron..)

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

21 minutes ago, Sunder said:

Like I said, trying to place a decoy in a location that enemies can't see/get to isn't a fun strategy for most.

Bugging it so it clips in the corner being a crate or something just seems..."unsportsmanlike" if you will. Surely not its intended use by dev's. But you are right, if the enemies are melee units, or if the loki is actively disarming them over and over a well placed decoy can distract them enough to help you and your team mates out.  What I don't like about this though? The time it'd take to do all this. Cloaking and disarming first, and then trying to place said decoy in a spot to alter enemy movement AND out of reach of enemies. As the game has grown it's become rather fast paced. Specially in high level missions when everyone's rushing to dodge, kill, and survive.

As for the Switch Teleport and blending in being overkill, this would of course be balanced by DE. The disguise is not meant to last long like his invisibility. But more-so just get you behind enemy lines. Just long enough so their attention is turned to the other grineer you switched with. Think of it like Ivara's cloak, aside from running/sprinting, any combat or acrobatic action would shed the disguise.

Also it'd pretty much function the same as a "Confusion proc". Enemies see him, they shoot him, he shoots all of them. It's like casting chaos on a single enemy

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. For some reason I thought this forum would combine them automatically x_x

You may be right. Loki has been around for so long that I learned to adapt a long time ago _{in galaxy far far away} and have gotten used to his current state. I find the issues you pointed out with his decoy to come down to tactics, but that's just one man's opinion. The game has grown to more of a fasted paced game with mobs swarming you so a rework may be "needed" (again, I don't like using that word).

You said in your reply, regarding your switch teleport idea not being overkill, "Think of it like Ivara's cloak, aside from running/sprinting, any combat or acrobatic action would shed the disguise." That I can absolutely get behind and would add some interesting uses for the ability.

Edited August 30, 2016 by (PS4)B0XMAN517

[Sunder]

6 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

I love this so much. I only had a complaint about Decoy, but your idea on Switch Teleport being changed to this is.. beautiful.

Now I've some questions:

1. If given these choices, would you rather: his decoy get a temporary invincibility window and/or scaling ehp along with the enemy (i.e copy off a light mob like Grineer Lancer/Corpus Crewman), and/or have much higher health than it has now, or the idea you offered?

2. What would happen if you did Role Reversal then Invisibility? Would your disguise disappear but the enemy's switched role remain? Or would your disguise still remain?

3. Does Role Reversal work for allies as a normal Switch Teleport when you do want to use it that way? With or without the augment, it's quite useful in some situations.. (There are a few other abilities that have no choice but to have the potential to troll, anyway.. e.e) Maybe hold down the ability to toggle it between targeting an ally to an enemy for QoL?

If this idea does turn into reality in the future, I hope that after disarming them, then role reversing, that the enemy will show a holograph of Bo for the normal Loki and Bo Prime for Loki Prime, u.u (I forgot what other weapons came out at the same time as Loki and/or as a bundle/Loki's fav. weapon i.e Mirage's Akzani and Frost's Latron..)

1. This would be up to DE. People are still spamming in wants for a scaling decoy. Others want it back to being duration based. If it was up to me? It'd be % based.

2. If you switched with an enemy, reversing your roles. THEN cast invisibility, the effect would still be applied to the enemy. The "disguise" wouldn't be a long effect so casting invisibility would probably just null it since it'd always outlast it regardless.

3. Would still work normal on allies. The bo and bo prime would be a nice touch however =p

 

5 minutes ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

You may be right. Loki has been around for so long that I learned to adapt a long time ago _{in galaxy far far away} and have gotten used to his current state. I find the issues you pointed out with his decoy to come down to tactics, but that's just one man's opinion. The game has grown to more of a fasted paced game with mobs swarming you so a rework may be "needed" (again, I don't like using that word).

You said in your reply, regarding your switch teleport idea not being overkill, "Think of it like Ivara's cloak, aside from running/sprinting, any combat or acrobatic action would shed the disguise." That I can absolutely get behind and would add some interesting uses for the ability.

Glad you like it.

Though while in disguise I'd still want the ability to turn off alarms immediately and bypass cameras and lasers =p

Wouldn't last THAT long so hopefully that wouldn't be seen as OP

[LunarEdge7]

2 minutes ago, Sunder said:

-snip-

Thanks for your answers.

I'd like to insist asking on this one:  Would needing to hold down the ability to toggle it between targeting an ally to an enemy for QoL be good in your opinion?

And horyshetyes I'd want to be able to turn off alarms immediately upon pressing 'x' on a terminal. But.. I don't think those things use fingerprints to turn it off D:

Bypassing cameras and lasers though, reasonable and iwantityespls.

[Sunder]

Honestly I think holding it down to differentiate between hostile and enemy would be useful in a sense.

 

Having two different "Modes"?

Too complicated and would likely just confuse people. I'd keep it the way it is, you tap it and whatever you're targeting you switch with be it an ally, or a defense target. Even if they're downed. But in the situation of an ally being downed in a crowd of enemies? I could see holding it down for 2-3 seconds to switch with the ally being useful.

This would all depend on DE's ability to implement this of course.

[Anatolius]

It looks great.. on paper. But application wise, I still think invisibility builds will dominate and people might use those other 2 abilities more but it wont radically change Loki at all.

I love the ideas dont get me wrong but the real question is:

Why should I use any of those abilities instead of invisibility? 

Invisable is a 50 energy get out of jail free card. As long as you don't stand in the line of fire, you're good. Why should you use switch teleport at all?

[Sunder]

24 minutes ago, Anatolius said:

It looks great.. on paper. But application wise, I still think invisibility builds will dominate and people might use those other 2 abilities more but it wont radically change Loki at all.

I love the ideas dont get me wrong but the real question is:

Why should I use any of those abilities instead of invisibility? 

Invisable is a 50 energy get out of jail free card. As long as you don't stand in the line of fire, you're good. Why should you use switch teleport at all?

Of course Invisibility will dominate. It's become Loki's staple. At this point it can't be altered without sending the community into an uproar.

But even while invisible, switching with an enemy would give you his location while making him a target by all his peers. A good distraction should you need to clear enemies away to one part of the map.

As for the decoys? You and one other person are playing a defense or interception or something. Your partner goes down. You can either run and abandon your post letting enemies take/kill/destroy it in attempts to revive your ally. Or cast the decoys to keep them busy while you do other things. Like revive.

The abilities aren't meant to be Loki's main offensive skills. As it stands Decoy and Switch teleport are extremely situational. These changes were just hoping to expand the amount of situations available

[peggisan]

Decoy is, for the most part, fine. Although I think it should do something on death (like reset enemy alertness level if youre not in their line of sight or confuse them if you are) if they were targeting decoy. After all, they did just kill you,

[AcceptYourDeath]

Buffing Loki? :D

So you want multiple Decoys who can`t be targeted only fooling enemys but draw attention like Decoy does at the moment? Just more and they can`t die....right!

Then we improve Switch Teleport with a stealth component and radiation proc on the target, instantly disarm what?....bypassing traaaa....huh? Ehhhh launching a nuke in the next mission you are about to do. 

OP CC on his 1 OP CC on his 3 OP CC on his 4! That would switch up alot for Loki - Let`s do this :D

Invisibility

Problem: Only invisible not invincible

Solution: Be invincible  

Edited August 31, 2016 by AcceptYourDeath

[Sunder]

34 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

Buffing Loki? :D

So you want multiple Decoys who can`t be targeted only fooling enemys but draw attention like Decoy does at the moment? Just more and they can`t die....right!

Then we improve Switch Teleport with a stealth component and radiation proc on the target, instantly disarm what?....bypassing traaaa....huh? Ehhhh launching a nuke in the next mission you are about to do. 

OP CC on his 1 OP CC on his 3 OP CC on his 4! That would switch up alot for Loki - Let`s do this :D

Invisibility

Problem: Only invisible not invincible

Solution: Be invincible  

Wrong. Wrong. And wrong again.

Please re-read more carefully before posting incorrect information that does nothing to contribute to the conversation at hand.

Only ONE Decoy is available at a time. The positions are strictly where the next one will pop when the first one is destroyed. So yes, they can be damaged and they can be destroyed. Just like how Loki is now, only one Loki decoy would exist on the field. All this power does is queue up additional ones so you don't have to recast it over and over when they're simply destroyed by some powerful enemy.

 

Switch teleport is a dated maneuver and pretty much no one uses it save for trolling other players. It wouldn't disarm the enemy. Simply cause a radiation effect which honestly should've been in from the start making the power actually usable. And it only makes sense that if you're disguised as an enemy that their own cameras or traps wouldn't be triggered by you. And yet again, this would be a short lived effect on Loki.

 

That being said, the "OP CC" you claim for his 1st ability can be re-enacted very simply by a Loki who'd rather perch high up and just cast it over and over to make enemies run around instead of killing/fighting. His "OP CC" third proposal is more or less the same as irradiated disarm but without the disarming and only on one enemy.

But you seem to have just rushed through the original post without paying attention to the details. So I would like to advise you to do so and follow up if you wish with a post that is on topic as per forum rules.

[LunarEdge7]

9 hours ago, Sunder said:

But even while invisible, switching with an enemy would give you his location while making him a target by all his peers. A good distraction should you need to clear enemies away to one part of the map.

I bet squadmates would love a Loki for being able to make an Eximus to suddenly have to fight his own allies. Even better when after being RR'd, he's in a nice spot full of them.

 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

What will happen to disarm? Can it be changed so it does something to infested without the augment?

[LunarEdge7]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

What will happen to disarm? Can it be changed so it does something to infested without the augment?

Well I don't see Sunder saying anything about disarm on Infested enemies.. unless you mean whether it can synergise with his Role Reversal or something?