Why Barely Anyone Plays Lunaro

[Master-Nachash]

So, I've been playing Conclave for a few months now and I've noticed a theme with Lunaro.

Every single day, no matter what time it is, I will always come across the same handful of players. I've spoken to a few of them, asking them if all they do is play Lunaro, because it seems like that's all they do day-in-day-out, considering I constantly come across them at different times every single day, when I'm doing my dailies. And they respond with something akin to "pretty much" or just an outright "yeah."

It's these players that are what I call "ballhoggers", who have completely mastered the movements in Lunaro, so they can control the ball 90%-100% of the time with ease. Not only do they keep the ball from opponents, but they actively work against their own team as well, never allowing their teammates to control the ball, the only way a teammate gets the ball is if they just happen to be in the right place at the right time unwittingly, or if they're another "ballhogger" who's skill level is similar to their own because they've also spent hundreds of hours in Lunaro. Also, more often than not I witness their teammates leaving the match abruptly when this is happening. Either that or they go afk off and on after a while.

Now, as opposed to these few players who I come across every single day. There are lots of obviously "new" players, who I come across, who I never see again. The ones who have clearly not played Lunaro much at all and / or who are clearly new to the game in general. I firmly believe these players never, or at the very least barely touch Lunaro at all because of this issue, because the likelyhood is, in almost every single match, they won't even get to practice and "git gud" due to the simple fact that they'll barely come in contact with the ball because of these few players.

Lunaro is supposed to be a game mode based on teamplay and cooperation. Hogging the ball removes that concept from the match, especially for whichever team the ballhogger is on. In my opinion it is essentially toxic behaviour as these players have absolutely no intention to cooperate with other players, they're simply there to dominate. At worst, they are essentially, intentially, purposefully removing other player's ability to play, and wasting their time just so they can get a sense of satisfaction from dominating other less-experienced players. At best, they're being careless and not taking other players into consideration. Either way, as I said, I firmly believe this is toxic behaviour.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Master-Nachash

[Airwolfen]

My reason is simple and I'm not touching anything PvP related till it is FULLY implemented

Dedicated servers.

[Master-Nachash]

4 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

My reason is simple and I'm not touching anything PvP related till it is FULLY implemented

Dedicated servers.

I don't blame you. Just started another game of Lunaro. 1v1, other guy is host, he's catching unstable lunaros. Seems legit. (Dat host advantage though.)

Edited September 19, 2016 by Master-Nachash

[Trichouette]

- badly made (yay let's dash everywhere) (even though I didn't try since the last patch)

- no dedicated server (and the incoming change won't fix that)

- rocket league exist

- balance issue

- better stuff to do, even though the game is empty right now (I mean, I have nothing to do in warframe, and lunaro won't help that)

- no interesting reward

That's just my opinion...

[Man_In_Suitcase]

I don't play PvP simply bc I want to play a PvE game.

[Master-Nachash]

7 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

- badly made (yay let's dash everywhere) (even though I didn't try since the last patch)

- no dedicated server (and the incoming change won't fix that)

- rocket league exist

- balance issue

- better stuff to do, even though the game is empty right now (I mean, I have nothing to do in warframe, and lunaro won't help that)

- no interesting reward

That's just my opinion...

 

1 minute ago, Man_In_Suitcase said:

I don't play PvP simply bc I want to play a PvE game.

That's all good and well but it doesn't address the specific issues I'm raising.

[Genoscythe]

My problem is that it is simply still PvP.

 

And as it happens in PvP, there is rage, salt, lag and the worst of humanity comes out. DE was totally wrong with making it an alternative for those who don't want the blood of the conclave. It's still one team against each other and as it happens that means someone looses and will be unhappy, no matter if you throw a ball or shoot arrows each other.

Instead of trying to make Warframe an e-sport, we could simply make the base game better.

[k05h]

1 hour ago, Master-Nachash said:

It's these players that are what I call "ballhoggers", who have completely mastered the movements in Lunaro, so they can control the ball 90%-100% of the time with ease. Not only do they keep the ball from opponents, but they actively work against their own team as well, never allowing their teammates to control the ball, the only way a teammate gets the ball is if they just happen to be in the right place at the right time unwittingly, or if they're another "ballhogger" who's skill level is similar to their own because they've also spent hundreds of hours in Lunaro.

That's the classical skill creep in PvP games. This happened in every PvP game I played. You either get good or you get steam-rolled. It is noones fault. It is the nature of competetive gameplay. 

I have played neither Lunaro nor Conclave because I came to Warframe for PvE. PvE to me is more relaxed and forgiving. And because of that I am more inclined to spend money *nudge nudge wink wink*.

Edited September 19, 2016 by k05h

[Nighttide77]

1 minute ago, Genoscythe said:

the worst of humanity comes out.

One might say the best in humanity can come out, too. Not too many opportunities to practice good sportsmanship and honor towards others if you're not sharpening your skills against theirs.

Bad attitudes and toxic players are common complaints about PvP, but if people let negative players ruin their whole experience, they miss out on the good things they will not experience in PvE. One might even say that being too sensitive to bad PvP players makes them overly sensitive to poor PvE players, too.

Negative PvP players also do not seem to stick around too long. Most PvP veterans in Warframe are among the most friendly players I've played with and against.

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

played couple of games...was disgusted, never again.

[Master-Nachash]

24 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

My problem is that it is simply still PvP.

 

And as it happens in PvP, there is rage, salt, lag and the worst of humanity comes out. DE was totally wrong with making it an alternative for those who don't want the blood of the conclave. It's still one team against each other and as it happens that means someone looses and will be unhappy, no matter if you throw a ball or shoot arrows each other.

Instead of trying to make Warframe an e-sport, we could simply make the base game better.

To be honest, I actually really like conclave. But I'll admit right now that it brings out the worst in me, not many games can say the same. I've played a lot of PVP games in my time and Warframe PVP for me personally has to be the most rage inducing. The only other game that's made me rage is APB Reloaded and that was only because there was aimbotters EVERYWHERE in that.

I think Warframe PVP was a really good idea personally, I just think it's been horribly implemented, seemingly forgotten about, and the fact it was released with no dedicated servers is a major "WTF DE" moment for me.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

- balance issue

- no interesting reward

-All Warframes are the same and Arcata can't be modded, so the gamemode is as balanced as it can get. If anything, lag can't be accounted for balancing because it's not a constant

-Conclave standing, all the Conclave skins, the Celestia Syadanna (and it's fires if you do the Lunaro challenges and therefore the weeklie), Conclave sigils. And hopefully soon, Conclave stances and Conclave "Gun Augments"(C'mon DE, I want Grinloked and Fateful Truth on my PvE arsenal already! :3)

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Genoscythe said:

 It's still one team against each other and as it happens that means someone looses and will be unhappy, no matter if you throw a ball or shoot arrows each other.

That's a problem in the mindset really. I enjoy it because my mindset is "Winning is Fun, Losing is Fun, Challenge is Fun"

[Witchydragon]

Normally I'd disagree with someone that considers players that have dedicated time and practice into a mode to be toxic control freaks, but here, I can agree that a high skill ceiling in Lunaro doesn't  make sense. People didn't want to play the normal Conclave because it's skill gap was far too large, not becaue it involved frames shooting each other. This is ignoring the majority of people that just don't play PvP because they don't like PvP. Here, the skill gap can be equally difficult to close, host advantage  and lag is worse, and you can't have fun with things like Rumbled. It's much harder for everyone to get Conclave rep in Lunaro, and is arguably less fun.

Since there is only one ball for 6 players, Lunaro becomes even more punishing and exclusive than the base PvP, as 4 or 5 players tend to just run around the arena hoping they get the ball. Then the guy that does have the ball drops it repeatedly or just scores point after point after point. It's far too reminiscent of middle school PE class. In the normal Conclave, everyone gets their own weapons, and can shoot at each other withour having to control an extremely limited and hard to get ball. If someone is doing poorly confronting enemies directly, they can retreat and shoot people in the back. It's also less disconnected than Lunaro from the PvE game.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Witchydragon

[Nazrethim]

6 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

It's also less disconnected than Lunaro from the PvE game.

Wait until we get Arcatas in PvE and their inevitable variants/skins. I want to kill grineer by throwing them Rollers :3

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

6 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

One might say the best in humanity can come out, too. Not too many opportunities to practice good sportsmanship and honor towards others if you're not sharpening your skills against theirs.

Bad attitudes and toxic players are common complaints about PvP, but if people let negative players ruin their whole experience, they miss out on the good things they will not experience in PvE. One might even say that being too sensitive to bad PvP players makes them overly sensitive to poor PvE players, too.

Negative PvP players also do not seem to stick around too long. Most PvP veterans in Warframe are among the most friendly players I've played with and against.

This is true, unfortunately we are talking about a very small handful of players, probably the only avid players in pvp.

4 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Normally I'd disagree with someone that considers players that have dedicated time and practice into a mode to be toxic control freaks, but here, I can agree that a high skill ceiling in Lunaro doesn't  make sense. People didn't want to play the normal Conclave because it's skill gap was far too large, not becaue it involved frames shooting each other. This is ignoring the majority of people that just don't play PvP because they don't like PvP. Here, the skill gap can be equally difficult to close, host advantage  and lag is worse, and you can't have fun with things like Rumbled. It's much harder for everyone to get Conclave rep in Lunaro, and is arguably less fun.

Since there is only one ball for 6 players, Lunaro becomes even more punishing and exclusive than the base PvP, as 4 or 5 players tend to just run around the arena hoping they get the ball. Then the guy that does have the ball drops it repeatedly or just scores point after point after point. It's far too reminiscent of middle school PE class. In the normal Conclave, everyone gets their own weapons, and can shoot at each other withour having to control an extremely limited and hard to get ball. If someone is doing poorly confronting enemies directly, they can retreat and shoot people in the back. It's also less disconnected than Lunaro from the PvE game.

 

 

Correct

5 hours ago, Master-Nachash said:

To be honest, I actually really like conclave. But I'll admit right now that it brings out the worst in me, not many games can say the same. I've played a lot of PVP games in my time and Warframe PVP for me personally has to be the most rage inducing. The only other game that's made me rage is APB Reloaded and that was only because there was aimbotters EVERYWHERE in that.

I think Warframe PVP was a really good idea personally, I just think it's been horribly implemented, seemingly forgotten about, and the fact it was released with no dedicated servers is a major "WTF DE" moment for me.

This is also true looks at the percentile pvp takes":

To me this shows how distant pvp in general is compared to the rest of the game.

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

That's a problem in the mindset really. I enjoy it because my mindset is "Winning is Fun, Losing is Fun, Challenge is Fun"

Because then you get this ^ . A mindset does not enable someone to play a game a good game enables someone to play a game. You can say that for every single game, that does not excuse it from bad design choices. I have gone through this mantra many times but the way I see it I think the best way to compare and contrast is this:

 

I really like this video because it shows how a developer can succeed and completely fail at the same time. There is a lot of good design philosophies that comes from bungie employees whereas 343i is all about fluff. The way I see it PvP should be designed under Bungie's philosophy, that philo. being that the most important thing is to not add things for the sake of adding but rather making calculated decisions that will not compromise the sand box.

To me the PvP team is 343i thinkers, they add all this stuff, do a patch up job at balancing and release a game mode that is not even complete ( in their vision) day 1. They don't seem to consider what are the consequences that adding X item / X mechanic will do the the gameplay and the sand box.

 

If i may add there was a quote from the video above and I will try to paraphrase as such " we are cynics, if the game does not attract us within the first five mins then forget it we wont play it" and that is so important. What people fail to see in lunaro and in normal conclave is that it does not attract anyone immediately, there are clearly balance problems, mechanics are changed and added for the sake of doing so. The game needs to appear desirable from the start and you dont need skins to do that, just make a game that works and that is fun. And it seems to me that during the tremendous development cycle the fun aspect seems to have been lost in replacement with "how can we add 35 classes into the game"

 

 

[Trichouette]

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-All Warframes are the same and Arcata can't be modded, so the gamemode is as balanced as it can get. If anything, lag can't be accounted for balancing because it's not a constant

By balance I meant how awful it is that you can spam "check". And now I can even add the matchmaking that put newer players against experimented one... But that's obvious since the amount of available players must be low.

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-Conclave standing, all the Conclave skins, the Celestia Syadanna (and it's fires if you do the Lunaro challenges and therefore the weeklie), Conclave sigils. And hopefully soon, Conclave stances and Conclave "Gun Augments"(C'mon DE, I want Grinloked and Fateful Truth on my PvE arsenal already! :3)

That's interesting to you, it's garbage to me.

[Alkorin]

As a pro lunaro player,who plays lunaro for hours a day, I believe that there are 2 main problems with lunaro :

The 1st problem is new players joining the same match with pro ones and that is just purely wrong.There should be a sort of system which divides the pro players from the new ones. Before you say anything about the "Recruiting Condition" yes i know about that but there are other players who are maxed with conclave and have never tried lunaro. Now there's no recruiting condition for them and they just go join the matches with pros.

2nd problem is that there are no dedicated servers for conclave overall. Who the hell was that madman who thought peer 2 peer connection could work out and that especially on lunaro?The host advantage is annoying for all of us, even pro players as it irritates me when someone steals the ball from my back even though I'm 1 meter away from it or hell I'm already touching the ball. Point is lunaro at the moment is NOT in a good position for both pro players and new ones and i hope DE opens their eyes already about the conclave and lunaro unfairness.

[C0d3blooded]

I firmly believe that most of the problems the playerbase has with Conclave, the OP included, could be solved with a better matchmaking/connection system.

[rockscl]

8 hours ago, C0d3blooded said:

I firmly believe that most of the problems the playerbase has with Conclave, the OP included, could be solved with a better matchmaking/connection system.

the only right path to follow in order to improve the stomps and the host migrations triggered by them, is to improve the matchmaking once ping/bandwidth affinity isnt the first global gate anymore, and that is long after implementing a better hosting environment, the other thing they tried was a knee jerk reaction both at the suggestion and at the implementation, and op is like 2 steps from realizing this thing you say

[C0d3blooded]

On 9/20/2016 at 7:59 AM, rockscl said:

the only right path to follow in order to improve the stomps and the host migrations triggered by them, is to improve the matchmaking once ping/bandwidth affinity isnt the first global gate anymore, and that is long after implementing a better hosting environment, the other thing they tried was a knee jerk reaction both at the suggestion and at the implementation, and op is like 2 steps from realizing this thing you say

I agree, ping/bandwidth can be annoying to deal with in Conclave. This is why I mentioned "a better matchmaking/connection system" as a blanket statement, sorry if I wasn't clear.