Excalibur is overnerfed. Badly.

[Azrael]

30 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

4) Removal of rewards from Endless Void, removal of Draco;
5) Introduction of Shadow Debt mods.

I'm struggling to see how these are nerfs to excal. They have nothing at all to do with excal. I suppose the galatine prime was a nerf to excal too, then.

[AlphaPHENIX]

Though I do agree that some of the nerfs to Excalibur were simply stupid and should be taken back (I am looking at you energy cost for spin atacks), I wouldn't call Excalibur more or less useless. Wana know why? This little thing called ''Radiant Finish''. Here is my stupid, dumb build

Spoiler

As you can see it could use more Forma, but I am completly fine with it as it is.

No polarity on the aura slot means I can use almost any aura I want.

Don't need my rank 7 Primed Flow in there because 300 max energy is plenty sence I rarely use Exalted Blade.

The damage bonus from an unranked Radiant Finish is more then enough.

And the best part, IT'S NOT BUILT FOR POWERS! YES, you actually need skill to use a build like this effectively.

 

PS: Yes I use Undying Will, judge me all you want. Just know that it has saved both me and my team at least 100+ times by now.

[Stormdragon]

And here I'm hoping for a mobility or durability buff to Excalibur even tough he doesn't need it.

I agree on the EB spin blind to be annoying, however, most builds can adapt pretty good to duration effect on toggle ability drain. For example, I run Excalibur with 85% efficiency, about 130% duration and 260% power strenght, and currently have no issues sustaining EB for long periods of time when I think it's necessary (those who have played with me can confirm that I'm not the mindless EB spam excal player)

Imo, Excalibur is in a good place right now and the only needed change is removing EB radial blind on spin, changing how it works (telos boltace spin effect comes to mind) or at least remove its cost (which is most likely not gonna happen)

[IamRageypoo]

Just now, Lord_Azrael said:

I'm struggling to see how these are nerfs to excal. They have nothing at all to do with excal. I suppose the galatine prime was a nerf to excal too, then.

I agree #4 needs elaboration, but I think #5 is referencing how melee changed in a way that made excaliburs 4 not quite up to par. That, in conjunction with the wave nerf, I can see his point on that. 

[Epsik-kun]

I've edited the OP, adding the answers to the reoccurring arguments in this thread, that seem to miss the point.

[Azrael]

40 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

There is no objective reason to use Excalibur currently.

What you mean here is that there's no reason to use an exalted blade excal. He still has 3 other abilities. Okay, so maybe his one isn't so great, and his 3 is a bit energy hungry....

Okay, he has one more ability. But that blind is really good. Have you tried a radiant finish build? You can even use shadow debt melee!

[IamRageypoo]

Just now, Lord_Azrael said:

What you mean here is that there's no reason to use an exalted blade excal. He still has 3 other abilities. Okay, so maybe his one isn't so great, and his 3 is a bit energy hungry....

Okay, he has one more ability. But that blind is really good. Have you tried a radiant finish build? You can even use shadow debt melee!

I'ved used him and I'm not the biggest fan of his 4 ability, I can't assume what the OP feels about it but I can guess it has mostly to do with the fact that the frame itself is basically built around being a melee expert, and one of his abilities is basically overshadowed by basic melee that any frame can excel in with the new mods/updates. 

[Vohim]

the only solid argument so far is the spin blind

 

3 to 5 have nothing to do with  excalibur and if these are a major nerf to excalibur , what are they to valkyr   when she has 7.5 times his energy cost ? and not 40 meter range energy waves

[Stormdragon]

4 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

the only solid argument so far is the spin blind

 

3 to 5 have nothing to do with  excalibur and if these are a major nerf to excalibur , what are they to valkyr   when she has 7.5 times his energy cost ? and not 40 meter range energy waves

She has lifesteal and damage immunity, Excalibur gets damage reduction from auto parry which affects only front attacks while leaving his back open.

[taiiat]

19 minutes ago, IamRageypoo said:

I think #5 is referencing how melee changed in a way that made excaliburs 4 not quite up to par.

yno, except for that Exalted Blade easily reaches ~16,000 Damage per Attack, plus the Waves' Damage(which is the same as the Sword Damage, so double). without using Shadow Debt Mods and assuming never building the Melee Counter.

eventually if a Mission lasts long enough Blood Rush will have a Melee Weapon exceed that Damage per Attack... but that's going to take some serious time, and Melee Counter Tiers.
like... a Fragor Prime needs a 2.5-3x Melee Counter with Blood Rush in order to deal the same Damage per Attack as Exalted Blade does at all times.

Edited September 21, 2016 by taiiat

[Epsik-kun]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

What you mean here is that there's no reason to use an exalted blade excal. He still has 3 other abilities. Okay, so maybe his one isn't so great, and his 3 is a bit energy hungry....

Okay, he has one more ability. But that blind is really good. Have you tried a radiant finish build? You can even use shadow debt melee!

Yes and no.

Slash Dash build will always be inferior to Exalted Blade build, as long as the damage of one Slash Dash equals the damage of one EBlade swing.
Radial Blind build is not a real build, because equipping "Stretch" is not what you call a build. Radiant Finish is a waste of mod space, because finishers are universally bad.
Radial Javelin build was used for Draco and fastest Void Defences. Now these missions are gone and there's no purpose for a Radial Javelin build.

You can also use Furious Javeling builld to achieve absurd DPS on Shadow Debt melee, but it also doesn't have a point, because it's a burst DPS in amounts that aren't needed in normal conditions and can't create the conditions when they are needed, because the builld is not sustainable.

10 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

3 to 5 have nothing to do with  excalibur and if these are a major nerf to excalibur , what are they to valkyr   when she has 7.5 times his energy cost ? and not 40 meter range energy waves

The answer is simple, Hysteria Valkyr currently is in a borderline unplayable state. Her only saving grace that prevents people from raging is the synergy Warcry has with Shadow Debt melee. It's just the thread is not about Valkyr.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Babellon]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

What you mean here is that there's no reason to use an exalted blade excal. He still has 3 other abilities. Okay, so maybe his one isn't so great, and his 3 is a bit energy hungry....

Okay, he has one more ability. But that blind is really good. Have you tried a radiant finish build? You can even use shadow debt melee!

What are these builds I'm always seeing people reference? Is that why people think a frame or weapon is broken? They "build" for exclusivity and then think nothing else works? 

I'm just trying to understand here. Seems to me a more universal balanced build would make more sense.  Perhaps that's the problem... DE has left to much design to the players discression not realizing the players don't have the training to know how to express it properly... 

[Vohim]

2 minutes ago, -----LegioN----- said:

She has lifesteal and damage immunity, Excalibur gets damage reduction from auto parry which affects only front attacks while leaving his back open.

thats where the spammable massive range blind comes to play

[taiiat]

3 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

finishers are universally bad.

oh wait you're serious, let me laugh even harder.

they're lame to use but they are the most powerful thing in Melee, period.

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, taiiat said:

oh wait you're serious, let me laugh even harder.

they're lame to use but they are the most powerful thing in Melee, period.

Good to know, you have experience in memes. Bad to know, you have no experience in Warframe's melee.

[DEADSHOT456]

38 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

1) Spin Blind energy cost;

This I agree with. This need to either go or changed to what it was.

38 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

2) Wave damage fall off;

This was needed. Waves were broken. You could sit behind a crate and spam it. This is fine.

38 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

3) Parasitic auras affecting toggles;

This is not related to Excalibur alone. Every toggle ability is affected. It was actually weird that the toggle abilities were not affected in the first place. Not that I like it much, but still it is not just Excalibur.

38 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

4) Removal of rewards from Endless Void, removal of Draco;

How does that relate to Excalibur nerf!

39 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

5) Introduction of Shadow Debt mods.

This is not a reason of nerf. I explained below.

39 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

6) Duration and Efficiency changes.

Same as number 3. This is not related to Excalibur alone.

49 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

1) To gimp the frame's build;
because otherwise you will not perform on a level of Shadow Debt melee

Complaining about EB not performing at the level of Shadow Debt melee is like complaining about every other Warframe 4th AoE (except Bladestorm) not performing at the level of Soma Prime or Hek.

Weapons almost always outperforms abilities.

You might say "Then why use abilities or EB?".

Because they have other good effects. Even the longest melee does not come close to the distance EB waves can travel, and even with damage falloff, these waves are more than enough to kill things.

56 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

3) To use Naramon.
because the frame has no means of protecting himself against enemies in an overstayed Survival

This I somewhat agree with. For a melee frame, Excalibur could use a little more survivability. Especially, when Valkyr is straight up invulnerable, even when she have highest base armor.

[Vohim]

1 minute ago, Epsik-kun said:

Good to know, you have experience in memes. Bad to know, you have no experience in Warframe's melee.

Finisher damage is the whole reason why bleeding is the top dps status

[NativeKiller]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

oh wait you're serious, let me laugh even harder.

they're lame to use but they are the most powerful thing in Melee, period.

Well, technically, Finishers aren't THAT powerful.

 

However, if we start talking about Covert Lethality...

[Vohim]

4 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

This I agree with. This need to either go or changed to what it was.

This was needed. Waves were broken. You could sit behind a crate and spam it. This is fine.

This is not related to Excalibur alone. Every toggle ability is affected. It was actually weird that the toggle abilities were not affected in the first place. Not that I like it much, but still it is not just Excalibur.

How does that relate to Excalibur nerf!

This is not a reason of nerf. I explained below.

Same as number 3. This is not related to Excalibur alone.

Complaining about EB not performing at the level of Shadow Debt melee is like complaining about every other Warframe 4th AoE (except Bladestorm) not performing at the level of Soma Prime or Hek.

Weapons almost always outperforms abilities.

You might say "Then why use abilities or EB?".

Because they have other good effects. Even the longest melee does not come close to the distance EB waves can travel, and even with damage falloff, these waves are more than enough to kill things.

This I somewhat agree with. For a melee frame, Excalibur could use a little more survivability. Especially, when Valkyr is straight up invulnerable, even when she have highest base armor.

maybe Zenurik+Life strike+ Rage+ Quick thinking ? 

naramon wont save you from bombards,osprey gasses, osprey mines, sorches, hyekka master flamethrowers, etc etc

Edited September 21, 2016 by Retepzednem

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, Retepzednem said:

Finisher damage is the whole reason why bleeding is the top dps status

Finisher damage, not finishers.

Pure bleeding is bad. It's x64 double dip damage increase it can get what makes it strong. Same goes for Gas and Toxin. These and armor bypass are the things, that make EBlade viable on high levels. If you rely on finishers (which fall off around enemy level 250) you won't even make it to high levels, because you won't be able to sustain the build. Radiant Finish will fall off a little bit later, but due to the way scaling works it ultimately will.

And if we are limited by enemy level 100 - there's no point to use finishers. You can burst such enemies faster by simply hitting them.

3 minutes ago, NativeKiller said:

However, if we start talking about Covert Lethality...

Well, yeah - obviously except Covert Lethality.

[NativeKiller]

2 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

maybe Zenurik+Life strike+ Rage+ Quick thinking ? 

naramon wont save you from bombards,osprey gasses, osprey mines, sorches, hyekka master flamethrowers, etc etc

Naramon + Life Strike + Rage + Quick Thinking seems more like it.

 

Naramon's complete invisibility will save you from almost anything, provided that you are careful enough.

 

Excalibur's Exalted Blade is a toggle skill, so Zenurik wouldn't be much help if you use EB at all.

[DEADSHOT456]

Just now, Retepzednem said:

maybe Zenurik+ Rage+ Quick thinking ? 

For survivability?

How is it different from using Naramon Shadow Step?

It is still using a Focus, while this should not be the case. Excalibur should be a little more tanky as he is a melee frame. And by tanky, I do not mean just increase his armor. No.

Add 100% block in EB mode. That will not be OP and will also fit with the current idea of 100% block on channeling.

Why not OP? Because he can block attacks from only one side.

Why does it fit with the current idea? Because in a sense, EB melee is channeled melee since it uses energy.

[TheGrandWarrior]

Exalted Blade should affect your MELEE COMBO MULTIPLIER....how using a sword doesn't add to your multiplier but using the "shots" from the Redeemer and Sarpa does...

This needs to be "Fixed" and should be fixed ages ago.

 

[Vohim]

melee combo as a whole should be upgraded , body count shouldnt be a mandatory mod

[Stormdragon]

19 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

thats where the spammable massive range blind comes to play

Radial Blind has a cooldown to avoid spam, and EB spin blind has reduced range (not sure if reduced duration) and doesn't open enemies to finishers, which makes it not even close to RB (which is totally understandable) and a forced waste of energy on every single spin attack.

Imo, Exalted Blade's mini blind should be tied to alt fire and not to spin attacks, which seems possible to do after seeing how hysteria augment works

Edited September 21, 2016 by -----LegioN-----