Excalibur is overnerfed. Badly.

[Gelkor]

Just now, DSpite said:

 

I have a secondary account where I main Excalibur, and it has not had an impact to my gameplay, but I don't use him as a glorified energy turret. I like to actually "play", and I don't get the instant impulse to turn EB "on" like an energy gun and go to town on the entire level.

The issue seems to be - much like a Simulor - that the ability has/had no "mechanics restraints" for an Ultimate. It would be like stackable Molecular Primes or Blade Storms that are instantly re-castable. It makes no sense from an ability like EB to be "on tap" like it is, it's like seeing Jedi's resolve ANY problem by just pulling out a light saber and chopping up everything, or Superman solving things by going into low orbit and Heat Beaming it.

It should be a tool to solve specific situations, not to solve EVERY situation.

The OP is unhappy that his main Frame has been made "less optimal" for clearing high level content, which technically, should happen to ALL Frames, not that Excalibur is broken. If anything, also "break" all the other weird abilities - looking at you, Blade Storm - and shrink the unit levels of the enemies as well, so we have a more even playing field, and not "we only die when we get Nullifier spam".

I don't really see anywhere in my post where I was saying I use EB all the time or that I use it as "an energy gun and go to town on the entire level."  And I don't necessarily see anywhere in my post that warranted the passive aggressive assertion that how you play Excalibur is closer to legitimate "playing of the game" than how I play Excalibur.

I prefer to use Exalted Blade as a backup to using my bow when I'm overwhelmed at melee range or need to regenerate health through lifestrike, as with natural talent drawing EB is actually faster than switching to melee only mode. I enjoy melee gameplay, and especially melee only gameplay, and that's the root of my dislike of the mere existence of the Radial Spin Blind, and, to a degree the Blade Waves. 

It's a personal preference, and, in the end, an opinion, just like yours, but that's where I'm coming from when I say that I feel the Radial Spin Blind and it's energy cost is a detriment to melee gameplay with Exalted Blade.

[[DE]Taylor]

4 hours ago, IamRageypoo said:

Mods, please fix. This person should not be attacking me for something I made no mention of, he either quoted me by accident, or for whatever reason equates the OP's statement as if they are my own, which they are not. 

If you have a problem with someone else's post (i.e. you feel you were misquoted or they're editing what you say, etc.), please use the report function next time, or respectfully inquire as to whether they made a mistake. 

Thanks.

edit: Also feel free to contact us via PM if you have questions about moderation (so as to not derail threads). 

Edited September 21, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
added in the edit and clarification! :)

[SenorClipClop]

15 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Now Excalibur is a swordfighter, not a Fluctus.

 

15 hours ago, taiiat said:

it only kind've helped, to be honest. a quick bandaid.

It's true, lots of Excalibur players just run around and spam E in the general direction of enemies. But now they don't get the full effect standing 20m away. They gotta get in there. Cali is melee-focused, not stand-far-away-and-fling-energy-waves-focused.  I don't know what you mean by a "bandaid". A band-aid for what?

[Sikelh]

My only problem with it is the cost on the slide blind. I say either drop that cost or replace the slide blind with an actual sliding  attack which obviously wouldn't incur some silly extra cost. Sliding is too important to closing the distance(you know since the point of the nerf was to make him get into melee range) for it to be eating energy and if i'm gonna use a blind I can just hit 2.

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Sikelh

[GrimAtrament]

hes fine hes now acauly excalibur swordmaster frame and not excalibur the laser turret.

[taiiat]

32 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't know what you mean by a "bandaid". A band-aid for what?

Damage falloff helps the turret problem, but it isn't a solution. it's just a quick bandaid.
in the long run making Exalted Blade an actual form of Melee will still need to happen.

 

Edit:

15 hours ago, NativeKiller said:

Well, technically, Finishers aren't THAT powerful.

Combat Finishers deal 12-24x Damage. plus a sizable portion of Finisher Damage added. plus any DoT effect or Et Cetera that takes from received Damage will take from the total Damage from performing the Finisher.
you were saying?

everyone that uses Melee vs Enemies of incredibly high Level is using Combat Finishers. elsewise there's no reason to use Melee at that point and instead better off using Guns.

Edited September 21, 2016 by taiiat

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

Damage falloff helps the turret problem, but it isn't a solution. it's just a quick bandaid.
in the long run making Exalted Blade an actual form of Melee will still need to happen.

I don't think you're using the term correctly. A "band-aid" in this context is an element used to cover up or bridge over a problem that remains there. The change to EB isn't covering anything up, it's a vested improvement toward solving the problem of Fluctalibur. It is a solution, just not a complete one. It sounds to me like you want to increase this change further and give Cali even more of a melee focus. Which I don't disagree with.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

There are a few things I'd like to bring to light and I feel need to be looked into honestly. Truth be told I don't think Excalibur has been "nerfed" enough.

Lets take a look at Dark Souls' Moonlihht Greatsword. No I know Warframe isn't Dark Souls, so don't bother with that. This is a simple comparison of balance.

Moonlight Greatsword has the ability to send out waves, just like EB, however each use lowers weapon durability. Which means, unless you want this weapon to practically snap in half, you don't want to spam it. In Dark souls 3 this is compounded by the fact that he wave can only be sent via strong charge attack. Meaning it can't be spammed.

Warframe doesn't have a durability system, but it does have an energy system. IMO I think EBs slash wave power should be brought back.

Make it super strong, but make it only be cast via charge attack. Also, when use this way it will cost a chunk of energy. Done. Power is brought back to the wave, but it can't be spammed.

[DSpite]

6 hours ago, Gelkor said:

I don't really see anywhere in my post where I was saying I use EB all the time or that I use it as "an energy gun and go to town on the entire level."  And I don't necessarily see anywhere in my post that warranted the passive aggressive assertion that how you play Excalibur is closer to legitimate "playing of the game" than how I play Excalibur.

I prefer to use Exalted Blade as a backup to using my bow when I'm overwhelmed at melee range or need to regenerate health through lifestrike, as with natural talent drawing EB is actually faster than switching to melee only mode. I enjoy melee gameplay, and especially melee only gameplay, and that's the root of my dislike of the mere existence of the Radial Spin Blind, and, to a degree the Blade Waves. 

It's a personal preference, and, in the end, an opinion, just like yours, but that's where I'm coming from when I say that I feel the Radial Spin Blind and it's energy cost is a detriment to melee gameplay with Exalted Blade.

 

I also don't see anywhere in my post where I was aiming anything at you. I was simply stating information about my game play and how it feels in general. Why is everyone taking things as direct attacks? I guarantee that if I go and "attack someone" it will rather obvious I'm doing so. That post is about as neutral as mine get.

The point was, EB exists. Simply "not using it" for me is not a conscious thing, I simply only activate it when I need to, ie, the Pod is swamped etc etc, but the reality is, it can be switched on and kept on, that is why people use it. What is the point of not spamming a Simulor when it lets you? Why not spam Penta nades when you have a 400+ clip?

... why not spam Radial Spin Blind when it's free or very cheap?

did DE get the costs right? Perhaps not, but when something is "free energy" what do you think most people will do?

I have suggested once that if we had a bar similar to the old Stamina bar that was tied to say, our on-board Reactor, so higher energy charge = better power output to abilities, and attempting to keep an ability "on" constantly would gradually decrease it's effectiveness, but not stop you doing so. If you kept up EB for an entire minute, it might drop to half effect, but a 30 odd seconds charge might bring it up back to max, and at max, for X number off seconds, you might even get a power bonus, hence why you would want to keep it as close to max charge as possible.

If everything is constantly "on-tap" it will get spammed. Then the spam gets DE attention, then it gets brought in line, and people move to the next frame/weapon/ability until THAT gets DE attention and ... etc etc. Right now things only get "balanced" when the logs show overuse, but at least it's happening.

 

[Gelkor]

2 minutes ago, DSpite said:

 

I also don't see anywhere in my post where I was aiming anything at you. I was simply stating information about my game play and how it feels in general. Why is everyone taking things as direct attacks? I guarantee that if I go and "attack someone" it will rather obvious I'm doing so. That post is about as neutral as mine get.

The point was, EB exists. Simply "not using it" for me is not a conscious thing, I simply only activate it when I need to, ie, the Pod is swamped etc etc, but the reality is, it can be switched on and kept on, that is why people use it. What is the point of not spamming a Simulor when it lets you? Why not spam Penta nades when you have a 400+ clip?

... why not spam Radial Spin Blind when it's free or very cheap?

did DE get the costs right? Perhaps not, but when something is "free energy" what do you think most people will do?

I have suggested once that if we had a bar similar to the old Stamina bar that was tied to say, our on-board Reactor, so higher energy charge = better power output to abilities, and attempting to keep an ability "on" constantly would gradually decrease it's effectiveness, but not stop you doing so. If you kept up EB for an entire minute, it might drop to half effect, but a 30 odd seconds charge might bring it up back to max, and at max, for X number off seconds, you might even get a power bonus, hence why you would want to keep it as close to max charge as possible.

If everything is constantly "on-tap" it will get spammed. Then the spam gets DE attention, then it gets brought in line, and people move to the next frame/weapon/ability until THAT gets DE attention and ... etc etc. Right now things only get "balanced" when the logs show overuse, but at least it's happening.

 

My apologies then, I took your complete ignoring of any of my points in favor of continuing to describe what you dislike about other Excalibur users the wrong way. 

[DSpite]

49 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

There are a few things I'd like to bring to light and I feel need to be looked into honestly. Truth be told I don't think Excalibur has been "nerfed" enough.

Lets take a look at Dark Souls' Moonlihht Greatsword. No I know Warframe isn't Dark Souls, so don't bother with that. This is a simple comparison of balance.

Moonlight Greatsword has the ability to send out waves, just like EB, however each use lowers weapon durability. Which means, unless you want this weapon to practically snap in half, you don't want to spam it. In Dark souls 3 this is compounded by the fact that he wave can only be sent via strong charge attack. Meaning it can't be spammed.

Warframe doesn't have a durability system, but it does have an energy system. IMO I think EBs slash wave power should be brought back.

Make it super strong, but make it only be cast via charge attack. Also, when use this way it will cost a chunk of energy. Done. Power is brought back to the wave, but it can't be spammed.

I don't know exactly what the numbers should be for costs and things, but this is the kind of thing that makes more mechanical sense as far as the ability is concerned.

The only issue I have with your idea is that Energy in this game is tied to random drops. One mission might have a ton because Nekros, one might have close to none because RNG Gods, and personally, I'd rather have systems that the players themselves can micro-manage with ... and Energy Restores are kludgy as hell. I really hope DE finds an Energy solution that has nothing to do with "random".

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

26 minutes ago, DSpite said:

I don't know exactly what the numbers should be for costs and things, but this is the kind of thing that makes more mechanical sense as far as the ability is concerned.

The only issue I have with your idea is that Energy in this game is tied to random drops. One mission might have a ton because Nekros, one might have close to none because RNG Gods, and personally, I'd rather have systems that the players themselves can micro-manage with ... and Energy Restores are kludgy as hell. I really hope DE finds an Energy solution that has nothing to do with "random".

1. Zenurik.

2. Energy Resotores. The medium of which can be purchased and from the dojo with credits. Largest can be bought from Syndicates.

3. While not entirely helpful Energy Siphon is a thing.

4. An Excalibur with Rage and Life Strike doesn't have to worry about Energy anymore.

There are multiple ways of getting energy beyond praying to the RNG gods.

[Epsik-kun]

8 hours ago, DSpite said:

I'm glad they "nerfed" it. Lets see why are you are actually complaining:

Let's start with that. You are annoyed that now your Excalibur is not a glorified "kill everything with Exalted Blade" because apparently, that is ALL you do currently.

Notice the forum category, it's there for a reason.

8 hours ago, DSpite said:

Your account usage of 619 missions hours shows your Excalibur as main, with an usage of 72%, 188 Million Affinity and 424,321 kills. FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND KILLS just on the Frame.

Impressive, right? This is what RJ Excalibur did in Draco and Void Defences. It's a mystery to me, why do you think it's somehow related to Exalted Blade though.

8 hours ago, DSpite said:

All the OP did all day long was wipe the Draco map for loot. DE stopped his farming spree, and he is unhappy. That is all that is happening here. His points are NOT valid, they are an Agenda

Nah, I'd ran Draco for MR and Focus - it has no loot. But because you are screaming so much and go as far as dig in my old posts - here's how I play Excalibur (staring at doors and stuff)

Spoiler

 

 

[AcceptYourDeath]

It looks like they took a huge Triton impaling him! 

"Radial Blind you say? *smack*" "EVERYBODY will now have your trademark skill, WITHOUT energy, IGNORING line of sight! .....oh and don`t forget to pay your energy for sliding around you`re ruining the floor. Hydroid wants to speak with you, something about being in the same club....I don`t know!"    

[Epsik-kun]

Guys, let's clear it out a bit:

I did not ask for Excalibur to be buffed. I did not ask anything actually. I just stated the facts which have led to the current situation, when players who know how to use their frames efficiently started to realize they see less and less reasons to select Excalibur to run a mission. If you think Excalibur's current state is fine - it is your opinion. However people dropping him are the actual situation. If you think Excalibur can not be outperformed by an unranked frame with Orthos - you are factually wrong.

And there are limits of what can be accepted and what can not. Back at the time, I was perfectly fine with the efficiency changes - which ended up being a direct nerf to Excalibur, Shadow Debt isolation from Exalted weapons - which suddenly made "the best melee weapons" in the game into "eh". There still were some objective (I can't stress this word enough) reasons to use Excalibur. Let it be known, the last such reason was "well, if you waste some of your energy pizzas, he is still one of the better frames to do Void Survivals". Now the Void Survival is gone.

I know well that Excalibur can do any mission well. The catch is, when you learn the game a bit, you'll realize that any frame can do any mission "well", so "versatility" becomes not a real argument to use a frame (hence the reason Oberon is bad). It ends up coming to what excels at what. And what used to be the strong points for Excalibur (and Valkyr actually) is now completely average for any melee. So, when you pick Excalibur you are facing the question "why should I pick a frame, that's heavily melee oriented, when I will not only get an equal or better melee potential with every other frame - I will not have half of my mods/skillset dedicated to it".

And I don't really care how it should be fixed - be it buffing Excalibur, nerfing Shadow Debt melee, changing the game's balance or something - it's something that should be fixed.

That being said I'll try to refrain from further arguments, because things tend to get personal and don't really achieve anything worthwile.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

On 21/9/2016 at 6:35 AM, ashrah said:

for me excalibur is blast man all u need is radial blind with good range

too bad radial blind got nerfed like1 year ago ....excalibut is too squishy , the energy pool is too limited, some abilities need a buff..

[ashrah]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

too bad radial blind got nerfed like1 year ago ....excalibut is too squishy , the energy pool is too limited, some abilities need a buff..

i play it adter nerf t4 suv almost 2h... and i got bored finished run.....40meter blind+radiant finisher...u find small room where enemies cant dominate u..its really easy

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

14 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Guys, let's clear it out a bit:

I did not ask for Excalibur to be buffed. I did not ask anything actually. I just stated the facts which have led to the current situation, when players who know how to use their frames efficiently started to realize they see less and less reasons to select Excalibur to run a mission. If you think Excalibur's current state is fine - it is your opinion. However people dropping him are the actual situation. If you think Excalibur can not be outperformed by an unranked frame with Orthos - you are factually wrong.

And there are limits of what can be accepted and what can not. Back at the time, I was perfectly fine with the efficiency changes - which ended up being a direct nerf to Excalibur, Shadow Debt isolation from Exalted weapons - which suddenly made "the best melee weapons" in the game into "eh". There still were some objective (I can't stress this word enough) reasons to use Excalibur. Let it be known, the last such reason was "well, if you waste some of your energy pizzas, he is still one of the better frames to do Void Survivals". Now the Void Survival is gone.

I know well that Excalibur can do any mission well. The catch is, when you learn the game a bit, you'll realize that any frame can do any mission "well", so "versatility" becomes not a real argument to use a frame (hence the reason Oberon is bad). It ends up coming to what excels at what. And what used to be the strong points for Excalibur (and Valkyr actually) is now completely average for any melee. So, when you pick Excalibur you are facing the question "why should I pick a frame, that's heavily melee oriented, when I will not only get an equal or better melee potential with every other frame - I will not have half of my mods/skillset dedicated to it".

And I don't really care how it should be fixed - be it buffing Excalibur, nerfing Shadow Debt melee, changing the game's balance or something - it's something that should be fixed.

That being said I'll try to refrain from further arguments, because things tend to get personal and don't really achieve anything worthwile.

I Played excalibut too much...he was my starter and I always enjoyed playing him but now I dont see a reason anymore...the frame is just too weak: radial blind nerfs, energy pool waaaay too low ( makes impossible for me to play quick thinking) to be efficient, his ultimate was nerfed multiple times if I correctly remember, his armor value should be buffed ( either armor or energy pool or both). I run naramon aswell and i like it, Created a radial blind build with the augment aswell but still there are frames that do the job and in a better way. RIP excalibro

Also waiting for the episode of NERFFRAME with THE NERF WITHIN.... top kek

Edited September 22, 2016 by (PS4)maso_sage-mode

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

1 minute ago, ashrah said:

i play it adter nerf t4 suv almost 2h... and i got bored finished run.....40meter blind+radiant finisher...u find small room where enemies cant dominate u..its really easy

doing like that is not hard, but playing radial blind in an open scenario is a different situation. 

[ashrah]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

doing like that is not hard, but playing radial blind in an open scenario is a different situation. 

all this nerfs push ppl from game...cz ppl invaste tons of time  several formas and get nerfed a lot...i was been very angry wen was mesa been nerfed i forma her 7 times...but what i dont like how devs doing now hype ppl on good frames wepons ppl buy it   max it then got hard nerf....they will lose lot players if keep doing that....i am qit world of tanks after 50.000battles..cz of similar resons...and warframe is last f2p game i play....

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

2 minutes ago, ashrah said:

all this nerfs push ppl from game...cz ppl invaste tons of time  several formas and get nerfed a lot...i was been very angry wen was mesa been nerfed i forma her 7 times...but what i dont like how devs doing now hype ppl on good frames wepons ppl buy it   max it then got hard nerf....they will lose lot players if keep doing that....i am qit world of tanks after 50.000battles..cz of similar resons...and warframe is last f2p game i play....

I m not sure but i think my excalibur has like 10 formas on it....i formaed him a lot of times for nothing....I m finally giving up...when they hit with the nerfhammer ill leave the nerfed stuff in a corner because its not worth putting additional effort into it and because the stuff is getting totally destroyed and becomes unplayable/not enjoyable...Agree on your point of view.

[ashrah]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

I m not sure but i think my excalibur has like 10 formas on it....i formaed him a lot of times for nothing....I m finally giving up...when they hit with the nerfhammer ill leave the nerfed stuff in a corner because its not worth putting additional effort into it and because the stuff is getting totally destroyed and becomes unplayable/not enjoyable...Agree on your point of view.

to me its very clear what they doing.... i can tolarate lot but wen i reach my point its over....its basiclly waste of time....we invaste in stuff to be better.we do that then devs change it and that over! 

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

7 minutes ago, ashrah said:

to me its very clear what they doing.... i can tolarate lot but wen i reach my point its over....its basiclly waste of time....we invaste in stuff to be better.we do that then devs change it and that over! 

I dont mind about changes in the frame s kit but it seems in a strange way that every single reworks ends in a nerf....2 points of view on it : 1 they dont actually understand/play their own game, 2 they listen too much to new players or to people complaining for nothing.  Also how much time do you think frames like equinox, chroma, ember, saryn will last the way they are right now ? prepare yourself because the hammer will hit them like a truck ! rip mag, rip trin , rip excalbur, rip boar prime, rip a lot of guns, rip valkyr,more grind walls on each things because you gotta die on the game before getting something good, excavations nerfed again, no endgame, but hey lets add more tennogen stuff to look pretty all together !

Edited September 22, 2016 by (PS4)maso_sage-mode

[ashrah]

1 hour ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

I dont mind about changes in the frame s kit but it seems in a strange way that every single reworks ends in a nerf....2 points of view on it : 1 they dont actually understand/play their own game, 2 they listen too much to new players or to people complaining for nothing.  Also how much time do you think frames like equinox, chroma, ember, saryn will last the way they are right now ? prepare yourself because the hammer will hit them like a truck ! rip mag, rip trin , rip excalbur, rip boar prime, rip a lot of guns, rip valkyr,more grind walls on each things because you gotta die on the game before getting something good, excavations nerfed again, no endgame, but hey lets add more tennogen stuff to look pretty all together !

i stop grind its not worth it...i sell what i dont need and buy what i need...they ruin own game wen start loseing players its will be to late... market is full of games once u lose customers its  hard to get new one especially wen ppl  spread what is going on...

[Babellon]

24 minutes ago, ashrah said:

i stop grind its not worth it...i sell what i dont need and buy what i need...they ruin own game wen start loseing players its will be to late... market is full of games once u lose customers its  hard to get new one especially wen ppl  spread what is going on...

My computer has been down for weeks and I've had to resort to using this old tablet to play app games... I've noticed a shocking number of games on it that quite literally play itself and it makes me wonder how much of the feedback and demands people are making have been motivated by those who play that type of iPad Android plays itself while you watch game.  This isn't an app game this is warframe.  What is happening here is we want a game you actually have to play to succeed at not just watch a video and get rewards for it.  What's going on here is we are actively trying to improve the game after its been torn down and trivialized by people who didn't.

Please tell people what's going on here.  Tell them to its a video game not an iPhone advertisement generator app.  We want and need real qualitative input from actual gamers not complaints about having to play. The changes that need to happen will make the game harder, will require us to hold the mouse/keyboard/controler and interact, take risks, possibly even lose some times. Please share in the coming elevation of warframe. 

If it be true that DE "ruined their game" they did so at the players request. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Babellon