Excalibur is overnerfed. Badly.

[Vanrythzx]

On 9/21/2016 at 6:44 AM, Retepzednem said:

the only reason i aint got excalibur is because  i got tired of his default look and cant afford a skin but he's still pretty solid when used right 

 

ima farm him now and then rush him tomorrow when i wake up 

don't rush, patience is a gift 

[MidnightMan]

2 hours ago, ashrah said:

to me its very clear what they doing.... i can tolarate lot but wen i reach my point its over....its basiclly waste of time....we invaste in stuff to be better.we do that then devs change it and that over! 

I feel your frustration, as players we spend days grinding, and spend plats, to build the perfect build and coolest skin, and then in a split second - an update, and your favorite frames not playable more.   Like someone burned down your home built house, and your homeless until you find a new plot, to build again.  Building the old burned down house may seem like a waste of time afterward, but not really is you enjoyed building it, and learned skills in the process?

Currently planning to rebuild excal into a post U18 EB Excal ( RJ been dead for awhile-lol) ,  by added SIX formas (7 counting the Aura slot) and Blind Rage/Energy Conversion( 249% Power strength)  + Cunning Drift/Overextended (250% range) to see that the DPS and RB range drop off is -lol 

Change, as painful as it can be, is good.....gives us something different to do while you wait for new content to be released a few times a month --  Believe me, once you get to endgame MR22 (technically MR30 is endgame, but that's gonna be awhile till that's even achievable) , its pretty dull waiting for DE to be develop content -lol.  Change keeps the game from getting stale, look at how many versions are release of BF, CoD, ect.... 

[ashrah]

51 minutes ago, Babellon said:

My computer has been down for weeks and I've had to resort to using this old tablet to play app games... I've noticed a shocking number of games on it that quite literally play itself and it makes me wonder how much of the feedback and demands people are making have been motivated by those who play that type of iPad Android plays itself while you watch game.  This isn't an app game this is warframe.  What is happening here is we want a game you actually have to play to succeed at not just watch a video and get rewards for it.  What's going on here is we are actively trying to improve the game after its been torn down and trivialized by people who didn't.

Please tell people what's going on here.  Tell them to its a video game not an iPhone advertisement generator app.  We want and need real qualitative input from actual gamers not complaints about having to play. The changes that need to happen will make the game harder, will require us to hold the mouse/keyboard/controler and interact, take risks, possibly even lose some times. Please share in the coming elevation of warframe. 

If it be true that DE "ruined their game" they did so at the players request. 

warframe is become farming simulator ...from every update  with incresed grind walls.sneaky pay to get system that is all....fun for new players until dont hit wall...boring for veterans.. without real rewarding system

[Babellon]

1 minute ago, ashrah said:

warframe is become farming simulator ...from every update  with incresed grind walls.sneaky pay to get system that is all....fun for new players until dont hit wall...boring for veterans.. without real rewarding system

Warframe has been slowly being eroded by people demanding they take the teeth out of the game and then telling us all how bored they are.  

It's the players who demanded less mobs, faster missions, passive fissures,  it's the players who insist one minute everything is to strong and reverse themselves in the next breath complaining they're bored and don't have anything to do because DE did what they asked.  It's the players DE are trying to make happy.  

You're out of things to do because people want the game in under 5 minutes while they are on smoke break at work, because people think if they can't get it immediately it's to hard, you're bored because DE cares about it's players and gave people what they asked for which has resulted in every one speeding through the game. 

DE does have a problem that being they are to nice and in my opinion they need to exercise some tough love. They need to stop giving in to the rusher crowd who just want rewards without resistance. 

I'm sorry you're bored.  Perhaps we can help DE make some adjustments that will not only give the game back it's legs and also reward people for effort not just for logging in. 

[Rawbeard]

anyone else have a flashback to the "World of Roguecraft" videos when reading the OP?

[ashrah]

2 minutes ago, Babellon said:

Warframe has been slowly being eroded by people demanding they take the teeth out of the game and then telling us all how bored they are.  

It's the players who demanded less mobs, faster missions, passive fissures,  it's the players who insist one minute everything is to strong and reverse themselves in the next breath complaining they're bored and don't have anything to do because DE did what they asked.  It's the players DE are trying to make happy.  

You're out of things to do because people want the game in under 5 minutes while they are on smoke break at work, because people think if they can't get it immediately it's to hard, you're bored because DE cares about it's players and gave people what they asked for which has resulted in every one speeding through the game. 

DE does have a problem that being they are to nice and in my opinion they need to exercise some tough love. They need to stop giving in to the rusher crowd who just want rewards without resistance. 

I'm sorry you're bored.  Perhaps we can help DE make some adjustments that will not only give the game back it's legs and also reward people for effort not just for logging in. 

from every update things getting worse....all players effort getting nerfed... warframe is very soon dead i garant u that...for over 3 years we still dont have core gameplay....no end game content who is rewarding... bad servers. constant host migrations... afk players..constant nerf on good wepons and 70% of wepons is terrible

[Babellon]

Just now, ashrah said:

from every update things getting worse....all players effort getting nerfed... warframe is very soon dead i garant u that...for over 3 years we still dont have core gameplay....no end game content who is rewarding... bad servers. constant host migrations... afk players..constant nerf on good wepons and 70% of wepons is terrible

And again that has all been players requests. However warframe is huge,  larger in fact in just 3 years than many main stream titles that have been around for years longer. 

Warframe is peer2peer so those issues are between the players connectivity. AFK players is a community problem, changes to systems happen and have to happen especially now. Player attitude is the biggest change that's needed.

[ashrah]

6 hours ago, Babellon said:

And again that has all been players requests. However warframe is huge,  larger in fact in just 3 years than many main stream titles that have been around for years longer. 

Warframe is peer2peer so those issues are between the players connectivity. AFK players is a community problem, changes to systems happen and have to happen especially now. Player attitude is the biggest change that's needed.

devs really need to find way to prevent or to punish ppl who afk...that hurts game a lot

[----Fenrir----]

On 21.9.2016 at 6:51 AM, SenorClipClop said:

Now Excalibur is a swordfighter, not a Fluctus.

A swordfighter with a stance designed around being a Fluctus. The EB stance is terrible for actual melee combat.

• No reach and basically single target only (apart from waves)
• No combo suitable to knock down enemies or close distance like actual decent melee stances (EB combos only really affect wave behavior!)
• Possible worst spin attack in the game that now even costs energy to use!

The stance Exalted Blade comes with is complete garbage for melee because it was exclusively designed around spamming waves. Take away the waves and compare EB with Hysteria. It's a difference like day and night.

Edited September 26, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[Hairein]

On 9/22/2016 at 0:01 PM, Rawbeard said:

anyone else have a flashback to the "World of Roguecraft" videos when reading the OP?

Yes lmfao.

[EinheriarJudith]

On 9/21/2016 at 0:50 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

To be fair, if they really want to fix the turret effect they should tie the blade waves to channeling and make THOSE cost extra, not the piddly slide blind.

why isnt this a thing?

Edited September 26, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[Epsik-kun]

13 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

why isnt this a thing?

Because:

1) Channeling is a terrible mechanics;
2) Channeling is an unsustainable mechanics;
3) EBlade without waves is a glorified Skana.

To put it straight - linking waves to channeling will require the whole mechanics overhaul, as well as a somplete ability rework. Alternatively, implementing it without making such changes will simply murder Excalibur right away.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Epsik-kun said:

Because:

1) Channeling is a terrible mechanics;
2) Channeling is an unsustainable mechanics;
3) EBlade without waves is a glorified Skana.

To put it straight - linking waves to channeling will require the whole mechanics overhaul, as well as a somplete ability rework. Alternatively, implementing it without making such changes will simply murder Excalibur right away.

channeling isnt supposed to be sustainable. channeling is an amazing mechanic actually. EB without waves makes him a proper swordsman.

[motorfirebox]

Regarding wave damage falloff, it seems like the best answer would be to allow shadow debt mods to affect Excalibro's EB melee but not his waves.

[WARLOCKE]

Exalted blades damage is not up to par. Never has been. I can easily hit 400k + PER SWING with chroma and maxed vex, His waves need to go. His EB needs to scale with his weapon, shadow debt mods and all Energy on spin needs to go and EB needs a good built in combo. I never liked EB because it was a band-aid. Now its a terrible band-aid.

[DiabolusUrsus]

10 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

Because:

1) Channeling is a terrible mechanics;
2) Channeling is an unsustainable mechanics;
3) EBlade without waves is a glorified Skana.

To put it straight - linking waves to channeling will require the whole mechanics overhaul, as well as a somplete ability rework. Alternatively, implementing it without making such changes will simply murder Excalibur right away.

1. Channeling is an unpolished mechanic, and it only suffers because energy cost under the current system forces it into direct competition with Warframe powers... which is a battle it cannot win. It doesn't help that very few channeling mods are worth the cost. It needs to be taken out of direct competition, and the mods need to be tweaked, but the mechanic itself is not conceptually terrible. Like most things Warframe, it needs a lot of work.

2. Anything that costs energy should be unsustainable - that's the point of a limiting factor. Warframe abilities are what is out of the norm... not channeling.

3. You can say that about any melee weapon. They are functionally identical. This is not an argument against a proper melee EB. See, I can do it too: EB with waves is just a gun that looks like a sword.

If nothing else, DE has established themselves as being fond of overhauls. The amount of work it would take to implement a worthwhile change should not be counted against it.

[JalakBali]

I agree on the "overnerfed" part. Clearly Excalibur needed a "nerf" but only on the part where he could be a death turret from behind a wall. So they made it that the damage from his blade waves got penalized as it passes through objects. Fair enough. But then they added even more nerfs to that: the slide blind now costing energy. I don't even understand the logic of this one. If it's to prevent slide blind spam, just put it on a short timer. Like Radial Blind. If it were too effective, then why do we even have it? Just get rid of it. And then they exclude Acolyte mods from EB even though none of them would make EB more powerful than before, just *as powerful* at most. Not to mention the exclusion of these mods means a player must build for either EB or for melee. Meaning your melee weapon will not be optimized and only exist as container for mods for EB if you chose the former. For the latter, might as well got with a Radial Blind build and go crazy with Acolyte mod melee.

 

Let's be clear: the "nerfs" that happened is not an Excalibur nerf. It's Exalted Blade nerf. Granted, EB was broken before since EB Excal could sit behind a wall and endlessly kill enemies due to Vacuum sucking energy balls through walls and the blade waves killing everything with no danger to Excal himself. But the nerfs that happened also nerfed the EB melee Excal, which was a "high risk high reward" frame. Excal is not a tank, so he dies easily. Right now being an EB Excal is not worth it since your DPS is not that great and the risk of dying is still the same. You're much better off as a Radial Blind Excal: safer and more efficient.

 

Solution: the removal of blade wave pass through is fair, but the nerf to EB Excal is not. EB Excal needs more DPS to be worth using (at high level content). Either give him his own combo counter for EB that increases damage/speed/crit (like I have suggested in the old Excal thread) or give him Acolyte mods. And also, make up your mind on the slide blind. Either remove it completely or remove the cost but add a timer.

[Epsik-kun]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Channeling is an unpolished mechanic

Hence - terrible. Current channeling needs more than just numbers tweaking to be even remotely usable

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Anything that costs energy should be unsustainable

That's completely wrong. Not only Warframe itself never was intended as a generic shooter with an occasional ability thrown in once in a hour - pretty much no games are made like that. Limitations are made for you to use your head and tools available to work around them. And the point here is that channeling is an unsustainable "mechanics" - no matter what you are doing, how you are doing it - you won't be able to use it even remotely effectively. Especially in the case of Excalibur.

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You can say that about any melee weapon. They are functionally identical.

You "can" say whatever you want, but that won't make it true. Weapons aren't functionally identical. And the "glorified Skana" part was pointing on that. Skana is among the worst weapons in the game by design. If you were just to remove waves you will end up with a terrible weapon. To make it worth using, you will have to make a lot of changes to the weapon stats and to the stance, otherwise it will be strictly worse than a lot of plain melee weapons.

 

What you are quoting is an answer to "why didn't DE just put waves on channeling" and it says essentially "because they can't *just* put waves on channeling without making the skill worthless". What you are trying to argue about now is completely irrelevant to the original post.

[----Fenrir----]

12 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Regarding wave damage falloff, it seems like the best answer would be to allow shadow debt mods to affect Excalibro's EB melee but not his waves.

His melee would still be terrible, no matter the damage. Because it's basically single target only. And that's just terrible in a horde shooter. Which is why no one uses daggers or sparring weapons (single daggers are only used as a "vehicle" for covert lethality).

Want me to use EB as an actual melee weapon? How about making it worth using as such? Why not have EB make use of the equipped melee stance? I mean Excals passive works with single swords, dual blades, and heavy blades so why not make EB able to be either of those? It would require making two additional weapon models for EB (dual and heavy blades) but that's basically it.

I would enjoy having a dual blade exalted blade. Or a heavy blade version using "Swirling Tiger" or "Tempo Royale".

[Babellon]

There's really nothing at all wrong with Excalibur. But people are going to swear there is until de changes him into what they say then those people will come tell us why he's broken as a result of those changes they are wanting.

It's why the game mechanics are so chaotic and what fuels them to keep telling us how broken everything is. "DE the void is broken please give us a different way to farm primes" "DE fissures are unfair and hard please make them passively complet" "DE there are to many mobs spawning to fast please fix it" "DE Excalibur is to weak this week" "DE we're compiling a list daily and every time you change something we're going to attack it and spend all our time talking you into changing it so we can keep complaining because no matter what you do we're going to use it to say the game is bad" " DE we're bored now".

DE, there's nothing wrong with Excalibur. There was nothing wrong with the void. There was nothing wrong with your original fissures. There was nothing wrong with your mob counts, respawn times, missions, rewards, rng, or the grind. Yes DE there are some elements that need to be worked up and in some cases brought down a little. Please develop your game based on your 26 years of experience, education, and professional understanding and stop taking development suggestions from arm chair computer experts. We don't ask the rocket scientist to do our plumbing and we don't hire a mechanic to do heart surgery.

With regards, 

            One Lone Tenno

[RealPandemonium]

Lol, Excalibur is suddenly bad because Shadow Debt mods are overpowered and bugged?  He still permablinds whole tiles, has unparalleled mobility, can stack the combo counter for those shadow debt monstrosities faster than anyone else, has a long range radial nuke, and EB is still overkill for 95% of the game's content.  You could complain about legitimate things like EB's stance being pointless and bad, but instead you choose to be upset that he's no longer more OP than every single other thing.  

Edited September 27, 2016 by RealPandemonium
spelling

[Vohim]

welp where i live at we only have 1 power supplier and one of the main generators blew up leaving us in a blackout 

so my excalibur should be finished today and i will  heavily test his capabilities 

 

starting in about 5 hours

[DiabolusUrsus]

22 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

Hence - terrible. Current channeling needs more than just numbers tweaking to be even remotely usable

There's limiting commentary to the current state of things, and then there's being constructive.

22 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

That's completely wrong. Not only Warframe itself never was intended as a generic shooter with an occasional ability thrown in once in a hour - pretty much no games are made like that. Limitations are made for you to use your head and tools available to work around them. And the point here is that channeling is an unsustainable "mechanics" - no matter what you are doing, how you are doing it - you won't be able to use it even remotely effectively. Especially in the case of Excalibur.

DE themselves have said that there is no solid definition of what Warframe "ought" to be, so let's abandon that notion of arbitrary correctness. Limitations by definition cannot be sustainable... or they aren't limitations. Yes, you have to work around them. The problem is that they stop working properly when you can work around them entirely, at which point they may as well not be there (e.g., Stamina). Channeling is made effective by Lifestrike, and by Lifestrike only. So it can be useful. Not saying that's ideal.

22 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

You "can" say whatever you want, but that won't make it true. Weapons aren't functionally identical. And the "glorified Skana" part was pointing on that. Skana is among the worst weapons in the game by design. If you were just to remove waves you will end up with a terrible weapon. To make it worth using, you will have to make a lot of changes to the weapon stats and to the stance, otherwise it will be strictly worse than a lot of plain melee weapons.

Weapons in general, no... but melee weapons specifically, yes. You take the thing and you hit the thing, and it dies. Discounting, of course, hybrid weapons like throwing weapons and gunblades. 

EB already does enough damage that it would be worth using even if it didn't spew out blades with every swing. You're making the (largely unsupported) assertion that melee in general is useless if you try to argue otherwise. Okay, so it's not the strongest thing out there. That's power creep for you. Would be nice to have some balance, wouldn't it?

My point was that so long as EB is a gun disguised as a sword, he will continue to function as a turret. Maybe not quite as effectively as before, but still a turret. As the plethora of already-done overhauls should prove, DE doesn't shy away from making a lot of changes or putting in a lot of work... so that's not exactly an effective criticism.

[Epsik-kun]

15 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

There's limiting commentary to the current state of things, and then there's being constructive.

I believe you are missing the difference between a concept and the final product.

11 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

DE themselves have said that there is no solid definition of what Warframe "ought" to be,

I can guarantee that "a generic shooter with an occasional ability thrown in once in a hour" is not something close to whatever vision DE has - now or in the future.

16 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Channeling is made effective by Lifestrike, and by Lifestrike only. So it can be useful. Not saying that's ideal.

Which means it is Life Strike working. Not channeling.

26 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

but melee weapons specifically, yes.

Do you even use melee in this game? Because you are giving me an impression that you don't.

32 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

DE doesn't shy away from making a lot of changes or putting in a lot of work... so that's not exactly an effective criticism.

If you think, that breaking a skill by tearing about half of its strength and slapping it on a faulty mechanics will fix anything - you are wrong. And if you are trying to send a message along the lines of "of course they will make appropriate adjustments" - you should really start reading what you are replying to.

30 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You're making the (largely unsupported) assertion that melee in general is useless if you try to argue otherwise.

Stop talking to yourself.

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

My point was that so long as EB is a gun disguised as a sword, he will continue to function as a turret.

Are you aware, that average DPS of Excalibur gets over x16 increase when he moves up close to an enemy? Waves never were a problem - you don't use waves on high levels, unless you like dealing no damage. And "turret" Excalibur is so weak, that I don't see a reason to even try to work around him.

The problem is the lack of motivation to actually move close. Excal's melee range is short, his movement speed is low, his survivability is not on a level you would assume a melee frame should have and he is highly susceptible to knockdowns. And what the latest nerf did wasn't addressing a "turret Excalibur problem". It was removing one more reason for him to actually go melee.

This isn't something you solve by removing one of the options. Were you to remove the range option (not to mention it will also immensely weaken his melee potential) - you'll be stuck with a melee frame that punishes you for going melee. Such an approach can't fix anything.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

To be honest, I think DE wants Excal to be subpar at this point. He is the poster boy for the game, so he will always be a starter. As such, I don't think they want him being too viable because they want to give people a reason to farm (or buy) a replacement.