Conclave mods in PvE

[Nazrethim]

DE, could you make Conclave mods usable in PvE already?

-Stances are Fun to use

-Adds modding diversity

-Some Augments are very useful, specially for teamplay (Purifying Flames anyone?)

-Some Augments are Fun (Mesa's Waltz, Rumbled)

-They are all tradable, so nobody is technically required to do Conclave to get them.

We can already use Spring-Loaded Broadhead, so why not the rest?

Edited September 26, 2016 by Nazrethim

[chainchompguy3]

T'would certainly make me consider playing conclave for once. Some of those augments are downright amazing.

[BlackCoMerc]

As long as we have some way to obtain them by playing PVE, too, I see no problem with this. Locking PVE content - even optional content - behind PVP though...that argument isnt going to fare well.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

As long as we have some way to obtain them by playing PVE, too, I see no problem with this. Locking PVE content - even optional content - behind PVP though...that argument isnt going to fare well.

Eh, it's not PvE content locked behind PvP, it's PvP content locked behind PvP content that would just happen to be usable in PvE, even if it's not optimal. Also, there's a way to get it without stepping into Conclave: Trade.

[Liminal]

16 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Eh, it's not PvE content locked behind PvP, it's PvP content locked behind PvP content that would just happen to be usable in PvE, even if it's not optimal. Also, there's a way to get it without stepping into Conclave: Trade.

Being usable in PvE makes it PvE content (and PvP as well in this case, they are not mutually exclusive). And no, I don't believe item acquisiton should be balanced around player trading.

[BlackCoMerc]

46 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Eh, it's not PvE content locked behind PvP, it's PvP content locked behind PvP content that would just happen to be usable in PvE, even if it's not optimal. Also, there's a way to get it without stepping into Conclave: Trade.

Then its PVE content, and should be available by playing PVE.

Period.

[Fukushu]

Dude, enough with the "incentive to play Conclave" and "true/real challenge" crap. Every time I see you make a suggestion like this, it's always "Yeah, it can be used in PVE, but only if players are forced into PVP. If they don't want to do that, they'll just have to trade for it." I still don't understand how you can be so ignorant to think this is a good/fair idea. Seriously, even Dark Souls allows its PVP covenant items to be earned through PVE, and that game is known just as much for its PVP as it is for its difficulty.

If something from PVP can be used in PVE, it should be earned through both modes it can be used in, and luckily DE seems to know this by having the Sentients drop Conclave mods (though we're still waiting for Spring Loaded Broadhead to make it into the PVE drop tables). If people don't want to play Conclave, that's their decision, and forcing them to either play a mode not many players enjoy or be forced to trade for the mods is not going to make players happy.

[Nazrethim]

31 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Being usable in PvE makes it PvE content (and PvP as well in this case, they are not mutually exclusive). And no, I don't believe item acquisiton should be balanced around player trading.

But that's exactly how Primes, Sortie rewards, Raid rewards and Syndicate rewards are balanced around. You either work for them or trade for them.

Just now, Fukushu said:

Dude, enough with the "incentive to play Conclave" and "true/real challenge" crap. Every time I see you make a suggestion like this, it's always "Yeah, it can be used in PVE, but only if players are forced into PVP. If they don't want to do that, they'll just have to trade for it." I still don't understand how you can be so ignorant to think this is a good/fair idea. Seriously, even Dark Souls allows its PVP covenant items to be earned through PVE, and that game is known just as much for its PVP as it is for its difficulty.

Except Dark Souls is a special case, because PvP can be just as difficult as PvE. Conclave is THE most challenging game mode available right now and no pve content so far is as challenging as Conclave. It's as good an idea as having cosmetic skins and syadanna behind Conclave, and unlike those, mods can be traded.

Just now, Fukushu said:

If something from PVP can be used in PVE, it should be earned through both modes it can be used in, and luckily DE seems to know this by having the Sentients drop Conclave mods (though we're still waiting for Spring Loaded Broadhead to make it into the PVE drop tables). If people don't want to play Conclave, that's their decision, and forcing them to either play a mode not many players enjoy or be forced to trade for the mods is not going to make players happy.

Just to make it clear, I'm not opposed to Conclave stuff being obtained from PvE, I am opposed to getting rewards from a challenging mode in an easy mode. What you are asking with current PvE modes is akin to ask Arcanes be obtained from running RotA on Berehynia or Hieracon. If DE implements real pve challenge (as in, actual difficulty vs an opponent just as powerful and mobile as we are instead of enemies that stand still and are just bulletsponges that can oneshot us with aimbot accuracy or nullify our abilities) then I'm fine with them be obtained from PvE. Rathuum is a step in the right direction, though there's still a lot to improve.

Again, this wouldn't force anybody to play conclave, and as I mentioned previously trade is a valid way to acquire them.

[Fukushu]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Just to make it clear, I'm not opposed to Conclave stuff being obtained from PvE, I am opposed to getting rewards from a challenging mode in an easy mode. What you are asking with current PvE modes is akin to ask Arcanes be obtained from running RotA on Berehynia or Hieracon. If DE implements real pve challenge (as in, actual difficulty vs an opponent just as powerful and mobile as we are instead of enemies that stand still and are just bulletsponges that can oneshot us with aimbot accuracy or nullify our abilities) then I'm fine with them be obtained from PvE. Rathuum is a step in the right direction, though there's still a lot to improve.

Again, this wouldn't force anybody to play conclave, and as I mentioned previously trade is a valid way to acquire them.

Oh, my God... The ignorance you have constantly shown is truly infuriating. This is nothing like asking for Arcanes to be earned outside of Raids, while your suggestion is more like saying we can't get Warframes without playing Conclave. See that? I can make ridiculous accusations too.

And for the love of all that still has common sense, stop using trading as an excuse! If something can be used in PVE, it should be able to be earned through PVE! Stop forcing your egotistical PVP ideas on a game that is mainly PVE! If people don't want to play Conclave to earn PVE mods, they shouldn't have to, and I am glad as all Hell DE knows this instead of listening to your "suggestions".

[Liminal]

20 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

But that's exactly how Primes, Sortie rewards, Raid rewards and Syndicate rewards are balanced around. You either work for them or trade for them.

(...)

Just to make it clear, I'm not opposed to Conclave stuff being obtained from PvE, I am opposed to getting rewards from a challenging mode in an easy mode. What you are asking with current PvE modes is akin to ask Arcanes be obtained from running RotA on Berehynia or Hieracon. If DE implements real pve challenge (as in, actual difficulty vs an opponent just as powerful and mobile as we are instead of enemies that stand still and are just bulletsponges that can oneshot us with aimbot accuracy or nullify our abilities) then I'm fine with them be obtained from PvE. Rathuum is a step in the right direction, though there's still a lot to improve.

No, you either grind them or you can (optionally) trade for them. For many PvP is a no-go; it's a complete deviation from what they signed up for, so the only option left being trade isn't acceptable.

PvE may be easier, but it's grindy. You either play content with challenging difficulty in the form of players or you play content with difficulty in the form of burning you out. Besides, do you not get any points even when you lose in PvP? Do you really want people afk or running around without even trying just to get the points for the mods? Because I may not agree with being afk, but I don't enjoy conclave so I'd not even try to win, I'd only be there for the syndicate standing. Hell, or I'd just boost with a friend.

If conclave mods were usable in PvE, being able to acquire them through PvE would be in everyone's best interests.

[Fukushu]

36 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

No, you either grind them or you can (optionally) trade for them. For many PvP is a no-go; it's a complete deviation from what they signed up for, so the only option left being trade isn't acceptable.

PvE may be easier, but it's grindy. You either play content with challenging difficulty in the form of players or you play content with difficulty in the form of burning you out. Besides, do you not get any points even when you lose in PvP? Do you really want people afk or running around without even trying just to get the points for the mods? Because I may not agree with being afk, but I don't enjoy conclave so I'd not even try to win, I'd only be there for the syndicate standing. Hell, or I'd just boost with a friend.

If conclave mods were usable in PvE, being able to acquire them through PvE would be in everyone's best interests.

I'm glad you and I see eye to eye with "What can be used in PVE should be able to be earned in PVE", as well as that seeming to be the general consensus whenever a topic like this is brought up, but trust me when I say you won't be getting through to Nazrethim. I've been back and forth with them a few times in the past (namely when the Conclave stances were leaked), and it's always the same, "These mods can be used in PVE if they're only earned through Conclave or bought through trading."

I honestly want to tell you to just ignore this user for the sake of your mental health since it's just going to be back and forth with all feedback being completely ignored or met with "Just trade for it", but do whatever you want.

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Fukushu

[_Vortus_]

Only if they can start dropping in PvE missions.    Do not care for PvP at all.   They can keep the mods on that side of the fence until they start dropping on all missions.

[Nazrethim]

30 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

Oh, my God... The ignorance you have constantly shown is truly infuriating. This is nothing like asking for Arcanes to be earned outside of Raids, while your suggestion is more like saying we can't get Warframes without playing Conclave. See that? I can make ridiculous accusations too.

I know it's not like asking arcanes from the local hieracon store. But it's the closest example I could come up with since, again, there is no mechanically challenging content in pve, you either face hundreds of easily defeatable mooks or face hundreds of bulletsponge oneshot capable mooks with the same name as the easily defeatable, and they don't even change tactics.

30 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

And for the love of all that still has common sense, stop using trading as an excuse! If something can be used in PVE, it should be able to be earned through PVE! Stop forcing your egotistical PVP ideas on a game that is mainly PVE! If people don't want to play Conclave to earn PVE mods, they shouldn't have to, and I am glad as all Hell DE knows this instead of listening to your "suggestions".

And I've said I'm fine with it obtained from PvE as long as the difficulty match that of Conclave, I mean, make them available now and eventually, when DE improves specter AI to fight toe-to-toe with us, add Conclave bots or whatever. Back to Arcanes example: If I want the Arcanes because they can be used everywhere, but I don't want/can't participate in Raids (either because I don't like it, can't find people to do it or the people I do find have the military precision of drunk toddlers) what are my options? not use them or trade for them. And if they are usable outside of raids, they SHOULD be able to be obtained outside of raids, because it's fair, right? If you find that nonsensical, now you understand how I read your proposal.

Well, DE developed Lunaro for those that rejected the standard PvP modes, so we know they don't have a blind hatred for Conclave, otherwise they wouldn't have developed all that in the first place. I always try to make my suggestions as reasonable as possible and I'm open to differing opinions, but only as long as they are impartial and in no way display zealotry or hatred towards the topic at hand. You don't like Conclave, that's perfectly fine, I don't like Defense and never play them, and I would never complain if DE locks a specific reward behind Defense mode (similar to Covert Lethality locked behind spy for example). I have yet to see what do you propose to make them available trough PvE that is just as challenging as Conclave (in the sense of facing enemies just as powerful, cunning, mobile and fragile as we are)

32 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

No, you either grind them or you can (optionally) trade for them. For many PvP is a no-go; it's a complete deviation from what they signed up for, so the only option left being trade isn't acceptable.

If I don't want to grind them, what are my other options? Trade and MAYBE transmutation. Yeah, that could be the solution. Just add them to the transmutation table and call it a day.

32 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Besides, do you not get any points even when you lose in PvP?

Yes, but not very much, and the afk timer is even shorter in Conclave than PvE

32 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Do you really want people afk or running around without even trying just to get the points for the mods? Because I may not agree with being afk, but I don't enjoy conclave so I'd not even try to win, I'd only be there for the syndicate standing. Hell, or I'd just boost with a friend.

They won't last long, besides, it wouldn't be effective at all, as the main source of Conclave standing is by doing Daily Challenges and the Weekly mission.

32 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

If conclave mods were usable in PvE, being able to acquire them through PvE would be in everyone's best interests.

I already listed the upsides of making them usable, and so far the only "downside" if you can call it that is "players who don't like conclave / are too lazy for conclave will complain they can't get them the easy way" (because so far I haven't read a suggestion to add a challenge PvE mode)

 

6 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

I'm glad you and I see eye to eye with "What can be used in PVE should be able to be earned in PVE", as well as that seeming to be the general consensus whenever a topic like this is brought up, but trust me when I say you won't be getting through to Nazrethim. I've been back and forth with them a few times in the past (namely when the Conclave stances were leaked), and it's always the same, "These mods can be used in PVE if they're only earned through Conclave or bought through trading."

"... or a PvE mode just as  challenging (in terms of skil required) as Conclave is added"

I have suggested more challenging PvE modes in the past, and so far the answer is "YES!" from players who seek challenge and "NO!" from lazy players who like sitting on a crate spamming abilities.

6 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

I honestly want to tell you to just ignore this user for the sake of your mental health since it's just going to be back and forth with all feedback being completely ignored or met with "Just trade for it", but do whatever you want.

Ideas are flexible my friend, I resort to "trade for it" when the "add an equally difficult PvE alternative" is met with the equivalent of "Nah, better the grindy easy mode"

Just look at any of my other suggestions and you will see I'm open to other players opinions as long as they are objective and justified.

[MystMan]

I gotta chime in and say that the "incentive" part is indeed incorrect. 

People will never play a game mode they simply are not interested in. Look at Archwing, no amount of awesome rewards is going to change people's mind among those who despise it.
Me, I LOVE Archwing. I play it a lot despite its lacking rewards. If it did have better rewards / affinity added, I would just play it even more; others who hate it, I doubt for very long. At least Archwing I can play alone anytime I want. Conclave on the other hand requires other people present for it to be playable.

The problem with not having a lot of people to play with in conclave/Lunaro is that these competitive game modes are pandering to a player base that is overwhelmingly PVE oriented. Those who play conclave have to be online at the same time and playing the same conclave game mode at the same time to play together. This is a very small window of opportunity to actually meet each other. Hence why so many say "conclave is always empty, I have to try a lot finding a lobby". The conclave players are simply not numerous enough and spread too thin due to timing & location.

But the main reason of course as to why conclave won't grow is because it is peer2peer based. Laggy hosts kills any chances it has to expand. No "incentive" rewards will fix that. 

[Nazrethim]

Just now, MystMan said:

I gotta chime in and say that the "incentive" part is indeed incorrect. 

People will never play a game mode they simply are not interested in. Look at Archwing, no amount of awesome rewards is going to change people's mind among those who despise it.
Me, I LOVE Archwing. I play it a lot despite its lacking rewards. If it did have better rewards / affinity added, I would just play it even more; others who hate it, I doubt for very long. At least Archwing I can play alone anytime I want. Conclave on the other hand requires other people present for it to be playable.

The problem with not having a lot of people to play with in conclave/Lunaro is that these competitive game modes are pandering to a player base that is overwhelmingly PVE oriented. Those who play conclave have to be online at the same time and playing the same conclave game mode at the same time to play together. This is a very small window of opportunity to actually meet each other. Hence why so many say "conclave is always empty, I have to try a lot finding a lobby". The conclave players are simply not numerous enough and spread too thin due to timing & location.

But the main reason of course as to why conclave won't grow is because it is peer2peer based. Laggy hosts kills any chances it has to expand. No "incentive" rewards will fix that. 

Now that's a good and objective counter argument, and I agree with it. Editing OP to remove the incentive part.

[Liminal]

41 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

If I don't want to grind them, what are my other options?

The grind is part of the game, it's what we signed up for. PvP didn't even exist when many of us started playing. Apples and oranges.

42 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I already listed the upsides of making them usable, and so far the only "downside" if you can call it that is "players who don't like conclave / are too lazy for conclave will complain they can't get them the easy way" (because so far I haven't read a suggestion to add a challenge PvE mode)

So tell me, what could possibly be the downside of them being drops in PvE, apart from selfishness or elitism? How would it hurt the game?

("Lazyness" doesn't count at all, since grinding is quite a lot of time and work.)

[Fukushu]

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

So tell me, what could possibly be the downside of them being drops in PvE, apart from selfishness or elitism? How would it hurt the game?

("Lazyness" doesn't count at all, since grinding is quite a lot of time and work.)

He (or she) already said the "downside" multiple times: we would be getting the mods in "easy mode" instead of facing the "true challenging opponents" of Conclave. It's nothing more than PVP elitism, but Nazrethim refuses to admit it.

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

The grind is part of the game, it's what we signed up for. PvP didn't even exist when many of us started playing. Apples and oranges.

So tell me, what could possibly be the downside of them being drops in PvE, apart from selfishness or elitism? How would it hurt the game?

-Making Conclave even more redundant? See, this would work like this: if the mods are made available, more people will play Conclave, a % of those players will find the mode enjoyable, not something they would participate all day mind you, but a nice change of pace. However, the opposite would happen if the mods are made usable and obtainable outside in a non-challenging way (unless they are easy to obtain mechanically but locked behind an RNG wall so high that it would make old void droptables a paradise blessed by lootcifer by comparison, I don't wish rng hell to anybody)

Just now, Fukushu said:

He (or she) already said the "downside" multiple times: we would be getting the mods in "easy mode" instead of facing the "true challenging opponents" of Conclave. It's nothing more than PVP elitism, but Nazrethim refuses to admit it.

If you call "pushing for higher skill and improving at the game" as "elitism", then yes. Essentially I'm in the ancient school of tenno philosophy of "git gud", a not very popular school of thought. And that's not limited to PvP, it's for PvE as well. For example, in the following Ash Rework suggestion I made, you will read at some point that I dislike EB's mindless E-spam, so I made the Stance ultimate not work with that, I also got rid of auto-tracking and auto-finishing parts of Shuriken and Fatal Teleport. I also mention at various points about kicking Fleeting Expertise in the d*ck, for the simple reason that FE is what allows current Bladespam build to exist.

Spoiler

 

 

[----Dante----]

let just make them drop in pve with 00.01% chance and no one will complain cause they re obtainable in pve.

[Fukushu]

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

If you call "forcing players into a mode they don't like" as "elitism", then yes. Essentially I'm in the ancient school of tenno philosophy of "if you don't play Conclave, you shouldn't get anything", a not very popular school of thought. And that's not limited to PvP, it's for PvE as well. For example, in the following Ash Rework suggestion I made, you will read at some point that I dislike EB's mindless E-spam, so I made the Stance ultimate not work with that, I also got rid of auto-tracking and auto-finishing parts of Shuriken and Fatal Teleport. I also mention at various points about kicking Fleeting Expertise in the d*ck, for the simple reason that FE is what allows current Bladespam build to exist.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

There, fixed your post for ya. Like it or not, see it or not, when you try forcing players in a PVE game into PVP for the sake of "greater difficulty", you're only harming the game and pissing off the players that joined Warframe due to its primarily PVE style. I don't know why you can't understand that one simple fact, but it's becoming clear that Warframe may not be the game for you if Conclave is all you care about.

The only thing I'll agree with is Ash (and certain other abilities, though Fatal Teleports is an augment, not part of the ability itself, so you have to sacrifice something to fit it into a build) needing to be properly balanced and less "spam to survive", but that also comes down to needing to rework enemy scaling to make the game more blanaced.

[Flirk2]

8 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-They are all tradable, so nobody is technically required to do Conclave to get them.

That's nice. If only there were a lot of people who would trade those mods.... But surprise! There are only a few who actually play PVP in this game.

Let's say Argon Scope is in the offerings for the conclave. Would I think of playing conclave? No. Because I don't like PVP.

Not only am I not that patient when losing, but while having an Ancient teleport 5 meters at a time on Hieracon because of a 1.2 second ping is annoying (and that with the 400ms limit on matchmaking, by the way), having that same effect in PVP would be infuriating.

 

On the other hand, while I would be a little irritated if conclave mods suddenly would start to work in PVE, I would deal with it the same way I deal with not having an Argon Scope. By using the mods that I have. Not by facing the PVP that I specifically avoided so far. Or paying exorbitant amounts to those few people who like PVP for one reason or another.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, ----Dante---- said:

let just make them drop in pve with 00.01% chance and no one will complain cause they re obtainable in pve.

That's a likely outcome, however I don't wish an rng hell like that to anyone. But if that's required (because a buff to specter AI is probably months or years away) so be it. Making them Transmutation would be a good way without clogging PvE droptables with Conclave stuff.

 

1 hour ago, Fukushu said:

There, fixed your post for ya. Like it or not, see it or not, when you try forcing players in a PVE game into PVP for the sake of "greater difficulty", you're only harming the game and pissing off the players that joined Warframe due to its primarily PVE style. I don't know why you can't understand that one simple fact, but it's becoming clear that Warframe may not be the game for you if Conclave is all you care about.

Don't put words I didn't said. The message I delivered is very different of what you wrote. I did say I agree on placing them on PvE so long as the skill required is similar to that of Conclave (if we are talking about a reliable way to get them, if they are put behind a 0.01% rng hell then fine, easy mode or maybe transmutation, but I wouldn't wish that kind of rng for anyone)

 

33 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

That's nice. If only there were a lot of people who would trade those mods.... But surprise! There are only a few who actually play PVP in this game.

On the other hand Conclave Standing is the easiest standing to cap. So less players could provide supply. Also, compare that to trading for the other syndicates, I personally can't find people with Perrin standing to get Secura Lecta, and I won't abandon my synds to get New Loka rep.

33 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Let's say Argon Scope is in the offerings for the conclave. Would I think of playing conclave? No. Because I don't like PVP.

And that's fine.

33 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Not only am I not that patient when losing, but while having an Ancient teleport 5 meters at a time on Hieracon because of a 1.2 second ping is annoying (and that with the 400ms limit on matchmaking, by the way), having that same effect in PVP would be infuriating.

I know. We've been asking dedicated servers. DE is working on player hosted dedicated servers though, so we may have a solution soon.

33 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

On the other hand, while I would be a little irritated if conclave mods suddenly would start to work in PVE, I would deal with it the same way I deal with not having an Argon Scope. By using the mods that I have. Not by facing the PVP that I specifically avoided so far.

 

And that's fine too. I don't use Arcanes because I don't do Trials and I don't want to scoff the plat to get them trough trade. Most of Conclave mods are sidegrades or aren't really useful outside of Conclave's smaller stats (Rumbled for example absorbs only 500 damage, little for PvE but powerful for Conclave, why use it in PvE? Fun).

39 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Or paying exorbitant amounts to those few people who like PVP for one reason or another.

I don't think Conclave mods will be expensive like an argon scope. The Stances are rank 1 and cost 2k standing, so I wouldn't pay/charge more than 1-3 platinum for them. Augments wouldn't be more expensive than the Augments of the other syndicates, maybe even cheaper considering they wouldn't be very powerful. Gun mods? well those may be a bit more expensive, but only because they are random End of Match rewards, and because value would differ from mod to mod, with strong mods like Kill Switch, Secondary Wind and Emergent Aftermath probably being expensive while Gorgon Frenzy or Plan B being cheap since they aren't really that powerful.

And considering that Conclave is just as popular as Trials, we can conclude my Arcane trading comparison isn't that far off.

[marelooke]

If we've arrived at the point where people start thinking it's OK to make things only realistically acquirable through Trade then I think I'm going to start painting my "THE END IS NIGH!" signs and print ditto pamphlets to hand out in Relays.

Adding trading to the game already was a mistake, but if we're now going to justify obnoxious systems with "but you can trade for it"...

[Fukushu]

5 minutes ago, marelooke said:

If we've arrived at the point where people start thinking it's OK to make things only realistically acquirable through Trade then I think I'm going to start painting my "THE END IS NIGH!" signs and print ditto pamphlets to hand out in Relays.

Adding trading to the game already was a mistake, but if we're now going to justify obnoxious systems with "but you can trade for it"...

I personally have trading to thank for me being able to get enough platinum for more Warframe and weapon slots, so for that I'm thankful DE added it.

However, as was mentioned earlier, the way things like mods are acquired should not be built around trading, especially if something can be used in PVE and PVP. The constant excuse of "if you don't want to play Conclave, trade for it" is just pathetic.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Fukushu

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

However, as was mentioned earlier, the way things like mods are acquired should not be built around trading, especially if something can be used in PVE and PVP. The constant excuse of "if you don't want to play Conclave, trade for it" is just pathetic.

Just as pathetic as the excuse "I want Conclave rewards but I don't wanna do Conclave so it should drop everywhere else!".

Well, maybe DE could put them into Hieracon along with Arcanes too, or make Exterminates in Earth reward everything, mods, augments, primes, relics, synd stuff,  everything, since Exterminate seems to be very popular.