The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Nep_Blanc]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Not terribly broken. Just allows for more parcour and free movement.

yes it does and well effective vertical range now is like 3to 4 meters because of the small range it has now, considering a 3D environment

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[_Vortus_]

38 minutes ago, pikaseechu said:

Fixed it for you, and also shortened your "Gained" list; longer list does not equate better. 

Also, Vacuum does not work linearly; it's range is spherical. Do that math properly before you go stating what our gains and losses are. 

Other than that, Vacuum range being nerfed to 12% of effective range is enough to send people into a frenzy. Increasing the range to 8-10 meters will vastly inprove the reaction, not to mention probably introducing a toggle in options for those who don't want to lose a whole ammo box for one bullet. 

Meanwhile, I'm more or less salty that they did this as a passive but did not also introduce reworks/buff or plans to do so for the other 3 sentjnels. Shade, Diriga, Carrier, and maybe Helios if you haven't completed your codex are useful enough to be utilized by the playerbase. Deathcube's weapon needs a buff to damage, and Djinn got a nice change so we'll see how it plays out. Helios would probably see more usage by those with completed codex if he gave standing for Simaris scanners, or scanned plants and kavats for drops. As the final point, many still will use Carrier/Prime over most other sentinels/companions based on his small hitbox, tankiness, and lack of maintenance costs. DE took a sidestep in attempts to fix this but if they plan to help then they ahould do it right; not by nerfing Vacuum's effective sphere of range.

pets never had it in the first place, so they lost nothing.

each sentinel gained the vacuum ability, and it needed spelled out individually rather than shortened to point out our overall gain from these changes

even the inside of a sphere, from the center is measured by its radius.   

saltiness over other sentinels, or companions in general needing reworks has nothing to do with the current vacuum discussion.   heh, beyond that I totally agree most need some help.

[VergilDT]

In this game you have to sacrifice one stat for another in everything else so if you have ammo management issues than simply sacrifice a luxury mod for a Ammo Mutation for that weapon. problem solved. Most weapons don't require all 8 slots to reach it's optimum. I use Soma with Volt(speaking of fire rates) with no mutation and never run out of ammo. Knowing when to burst fire and when to bullet hose is essentially to poor ammo economy weapons. Accurate aim helps, a burst to the head is better than bullet hosing body shots.

[eksby]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

22 meters maybe? With 10 base at rank 0?

I think having vacuum tied to mastery rank would give a pretty big disadvantage to players who don't want to collect all the weapons. Some players collect weapons and frames they like, and don't want to do the tedious thing of collecting and ranking all that mastery fodder. While I'd be fine with it (MR21 currently), I think tying too many things to mastery rank will make the game a bit unfair for a lot of players, including new players who can't so easily get to mastery rank 22 quickly. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, TheRoaringLion said:

yes it does and well effective vertical range now is like 3to 4 meters because of the small range it has now, considering a 3D environment

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Yup. It's like 3d movement wasn't even taken into consideration when this update was implemented.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I picked the guy i was talking to originally. And I was right on his hypocrisy. What is there to prove past that point?

Another one. Can't you guys keep a civil conversation? You gotta ask me to leave, you gotta force your non-existent opinion down my throat, you lie to me about your preferances to make a point.  Wtf? Why go to such lenths? This topic didn't concern you in any way shape or form. You didn't lose anything with the update. If you like it - good for you. Stop trying to shut the mouths of the majority who dislikes the update. Find a different endgame cause at bullying you're pretty bad.

it's not bullying to point out blatant flaws in your failure of logic that is not only one sided, but broken in respect to actual study of any kind. what lie did i make up to you? elaborate, since you made the accusation.

and again, you don't get to single out one person to make a point, and ignore someone else who is on the same side as that point. that's not how discussions work.

If you have a problem with my pointing out that your actions are flawed and your behaviour in regards TO those flawed actions, as well as my perception of them are, then stop and think clearly for a moment about something: if my opinion is non-existent, then how is it i'm sitting here telling you my opinion as of this moment? I'm not the one disregarding relevant information here, that would be you. Is that a lie? no, it's not. one only need browse through the entirety of this thread with more than two brain cells to see that much.

so, for the last time, i'm going to state this clearly and plainly, baby-steps so please pay attention.

1: i've been playtesting the changes all day, I like them, the majority of the people within the game playing during the entirety of the day are enjoying the changes, hence why they aren't here contesting your point of view. I am.

2: you're trying to dig up a single persons stats to utilize as an invalidation against their point of view when they for the majority of the time do not utilize companions, while blatantly ignoring the point of view of someone who has immense use on the very sentinel that you're upset about the changes occurring to. This is flat out dumb. i'm not saying you are dumb, i'm saying your ACTIONS ARE DUMB. understand the difference.

3: riker, myself, and neithan have pointed out repeatedly, flaws in your logic, as well as supporting arguments as to why the changes to the sentinels are not only a good thing, but logical staff backed numbers, not theorized, not magical made up fantasy ideals, staff. backed. numerics. that specifically highlight a small window of observation and a small section of the playerbase as a whole in regards to the usage of a particular sentinel(carrier) that vastly outshines the usage of any other sentinel. not companion, not warframe, not weapon. sentinel. specifically. sentinel.

4: the changes made to carrier, although not liked, are a step in the right direction because A: it promotes the allowance of PLAYER PREFERENCE now, as opposed to "mandatory use" to efficiently accrue the desired items within the game that are not mission rewards. B: allows carrier to assist in replacing ammo capacity and mutation mods(still allowing for its own unique use and appeal). and C: adding genuine balance to the game in that now, no you cannot soar across the open sky or hide in safety or clear an entire room with little to no actual danger being involved within the gameplay to obtain any kind of reward. you want the goodie? awesome, go get it, but you're going to have to get in closer, not by much as you'll likely be moving at the fast pace that you, like myself, enjoy.

5: you now have options on again, player preference, while still maintaining the advantage of a vacuum use that will still benefit you. you and everyone else, are effectively upset because you have to walk/roll/run/jump/bullet jump/glide a small distance further to obtain the same result. In regards to speed and items being dropped due to the rate of travel in which the frame is moving versus the draw power of the now universal vacuum, is childish. I'm not dictating it as such, i don't make the rules in that regard. If you go fast enough, yes you will drop items. adjust to it. as one of the fastest zephyr players in the game, alongside CaptainBAMF who is not only more experienced than myself on the frame(miracle in of itself) but he's also aware of the mentality that if something drops, simply go back and pick it up. arguing against that simply states to the masses "i'm lazy" because if you're moving at a massive rate of speed it's literally nothing to turn around and snag it up. you're complaining, about nothing in this regard, thus crying for the sake of crying, which is something that drives me out of my mind as it's not even feedback, but again, crying for the sake of "i don't like it". I'm not sure how much life experience you've had that deals in reality changing on you in ways you may or may not enjoy, and i'm not going to assume in either direction regarding that, but i will say this: mentalities like this, got people killed in iraq on my deployments. I've seen good men and women lose their lives to to lazy and childish mentalities, and i've no tolerance for it, specifically when all one has to do is sit down and look at the big picture. it's not hard by any stretch of the word, unless one decides to take the route that makes it hard to do so.

 

so, in closing on this post: i feel carrier is not only fine, but improved. yes, you have to move around a smidge more, but thats no reason to be genuinely upset, as nothing is lost.

[Nep_Blanc]

1 minute ago, kuliise said:

I think having vacuum tied to mastery rank would give a pretty big disadvantage to players who don't want to collect all the weapons. Some players collect weapons and frames they like, and don't want to do the tedious thing of collecting and ranking all that mastery fodder. While I'd be fine with it (MR21 currently), I think tying too many things to mastery rank will make the game a bit unfair for a lot of players, including new players who can't so easily get to mastery rank 22 quickly. 

its kinda fair, you put more time in game, you get more rewards.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[Nep_Blanc]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Yup. It's like 3d movement wasn't even taken into consideration when this update was implemented.

I feel the same like we are not BF4 players that can jump for 1 meter straight.
We are space-wizard-ninjas that jump leaps leaps more then what a normal human can do, I feel so constrained and tied to the ground because of this change of looting in the game.
And looting is a essential aspect of the game, why would you ever change it if you look at how old carrier was used.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Edited October 6, 2016 by TheRoaringLion

[Azrael]

10 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Flamebaiting and toxicity? I'm the lighter guy here. Lee will pulverize you if you keep being an idiot

Lol at bragging about someone's skills at flamebaiting and toxicity. Also nice little insult on the sly, there.

 

15 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

But guess what, both will acknowledge if they are wrong, just like me.

Uhh.... if you say so. I haven't seen anything like that. I have, however, seen plenty of hostility, toxicity, flamebaiting, and outright ignoring what people actually said.

[Arithin]

Still no incentive to use kubrows.  You might say I'm the salty minority.  

 

Even got all the cool doggy armors, colors, and everything.  Just to have my puppies get outclassed by even a djinn of all things.   All my salt.

[Ailissa]

15 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

Snipped to save space.

I wasn't arguing for the nerf, I don't think it's a good thing, it's the exact opposite.

 

I was just pointing out that most folk in the game won't say anything but just because they are silent doesn't mean the changes were good.

 

The nerf to vacuum was the completely wrong way to go. Running around picking up loot, as you pointed out, isn't fun. Someone said DE are moving away from passive styles of play but adding more tedium to an already overly grindy game isn't exactly going to to please everyone. 

 

I pointed this out in another thread. People aren't taking the extra time to pick up the loot, they are simply skipping it. If they merely wanted to get people to use other Sentinels then they could have left Carrier but added a 6m vaccum to the others. Carrier would have retained his use for those of that don't want extra tedium and those that do want to run around can pick something else.

 

 

[SurrealEdge]

*cough*Magbulletjumpdoesthat*cough*

But in all honesty, it wouldn't really fix much of anything. It's only a band aid solution to a flawed drop system that relies heavily on the client and the host.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, kuliise said:

I think having vacuum tied to mastery rank would give a pretty big disadvantage to players who don't want to collect all the weapons. Some players collect weapons and frames they like, and don't want to do the tedious thing of collecting and ranking all that mastery fodder. While I'd be fine with it (MR21 currently), I think tying too many things to mastery rank will make the game a bit unfair for a lot of players, including new players who can't so easily get to mastery rank 22 quickly. 

I agree with that. I myself only mr19 so it'll be like 19m vacuum. But DE's policy up to this point was to push the players into higher mastery. So this particular suggestion might resonate with that.

PS.
 I don't hate DE for this update. Even for the spectres and the loss of my endless missions I don't hate them. I believe they're geniunly work hard to make the game better. But some of the questionable choices of the past months make it harder for me to keep it cool. Because I also geniunely love this game. Its mechanics are amazing. I love parcour, I love minmaxing. But I didn't have an actual gameplay to test all those mechanics for months now. And then this bs "Suck Within" update happens.

[Yaohru]

Honestly I think the biggest issue about this update (dude, where's my vacuum?) could have easily been avoided simply by keeping the Vacuum mod and allowing all sentinels/companions to equip it. I get not giving every sentinel 12m vacuum range off the bat, I get changing Carrier's precept, and I'm really thankful that we didn't go down that horrifyingly obtuse 3 mods route, but why not give players the opportunity to ramp up the vacuum distance if that's what they want or need?

Right now it feels as though the main point of this update was to try and hide a significant vacuum nerf inside a QOL update. It isn't good for the playerbase (who need to deal with this nonsense and feel as though they've been deceived) and it isn't good for DE (who're now on the receiving end of some justifiably annoyed player's rants).

The funniest part of this, for me, is that I rarely even used Carrier, so by all accounts I should be happy that my Diriga got a nice little Vacuum range to help with the chore of picking up loot. But honestly, I'm just really disappointed that the 80% of players that relied on Carrier (either as a survival strategy or to help avoid stopping gameplay to have to pick up loot) are getting kicked square in the nads. There are plenty of options for DE to choose from here, and I genuinely hope 'ignore the playerbase, they'll stop complaining eventually' isn't the one they go choose.

Edited October 6, 2016 by DoctorBagPhD

[Nep_Blanc]

Just now, SurrealEdge said:

*cough*Magbulletjumpdoesthat*cough*

But in all honesty, it wouldn't really fix much of anything. It's only a band aid solution to a flawed drop system that relies heavily on the client and the host.

XD well aside from that little passive, what else do you propose then in the looting system, I thought it was fine using carrier and that other sentinels were left out.
I also wanted vacuum for all sentinels, but not a huge exponential range reduction, thing is now it takes maybe 2 times to 4 times as long to loot stuff on the map now.

Not to mention vacuum is LoS now.

 

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[eksby]

7 minutes ago, TheRoaringLion said:

its kinda fair, you put more time in game, you get more rewards.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

For old vs new players, sure, I'll agree with that. But what about players with 3k hours who never go past mastery rank 12, just because they don't want to tediously rank mastery fodder? 

[Inglu]

"Vacuum is only for lazy people." "You need to put some effort into picking up all these pick ups." "Looting is part of the game, deal with it."

The same old yammering gets thrown around so much by the people not using Vacuum, it has gotten fairly tiresome.

It's not an enjoyable aspect of the gameplay to me. Carrier with Vacuum mitigated most of the inconvenience and tedium of scanning through all the numerous pick ups constantly for stuff I need. This allowed me to put almost all focus on to the aspects I enjoy; the fast paced, highly mobile combat. Picking up everything manually was an unnecessary detraction from the core gameplay I enjoy.

Bottom line, Vacuum massively increased my enjoyment of the game. I'm sorry for wanting more fun instead of less out of my entertainment products. ;)

[Waxil]

If most of the 89% of the players that think War-Roomba is less fun than playing with Carrier 12m radius quit the game than their isn't a problem! Mission accomplished.

This nerf will most likely make the new pie graph look at more even, but it comes at the expense of player QOL.  Nerfing 89% of your player bases QOL experience to 1/5th of what it was before (i.e three years) is the equivalent of slitting your own wrists in a F2P market with so many games of similar production quality and cost.   I know personally this has made my group play incredibly more tedious (Nekros Prime + Hydroid is a total god damn nightmare now) it's frankly insane how much worse it is, my group called it quits after one round.   I mean we were actually having to sprint instead of parkor just so we wouldn't have to keep doubling back for orkin cells, I mean the parkor is like 60% of this games appeal and now your insanely punished for using it any where but long low ceiling hallways.   I know my excitement for this game have been nerf'd to 1/5th of what is was, terrible, terrible, greedy change.

And to top it all off Carrier is *STILL* better than all the other freaking sentinels even with out Vacuum even being considered because they all have bad HP and near zero purpose.

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

And the king of all secondaries shall now reign again.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, TheRoaringLion said:

And looting is a essential aspect of the game, why would you ever change it if you look at how old carrier was used.

Ikr

5 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said:

*cough*Magbulletjumpdoesthat*cough*

QoL locked behind special equipment *coughs blood*
 

5 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said:

But in all honesty, it wouldn't really fix much of anything. It's only a band aid solution to a flawed drop system that relies heavily on the client and the host.

This is what could be done like right now. In the next hotfix. The thing I'm suggesting is really easy to do as far as I know. It's like a First Aid that we need right now.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[SurrealEdge]

Just now, TheRoaringLion said:

XD well aside from that little passive, what else do you propose then in the looting system, I thought it was fine using carrier and that other sentinels were left out.
I also wanted vacuum for all sentinels, but not a huge exponential range reduction, thing is now it takes maybe 2 times to 4 times as long to loot stuff on the map now.

Not to mention vacuum is LoS now.

Well for one, prevent drops from falling out of the map by fixing the boundaries on the tiles. Half the time my issue is that a drop will roll off a ledge or it spawns when an enemy body part clips through a wall pulling the drop with it. I haven't used carrier since the kavat update as the buffs provided by them far outweigh the usefulness of having vacuum.

[Separius]

3 hours ago, KAHO16 said:

There is no reason for use carrier now.

Vacuum became common passive, Ammo case is replaceable with mutation (and has lower efficiency)

Now, what is the character of carrier? Floating potato aka Ammo king?

 

DE should make clear that the identity of carrier is.

I get where you're coming from, but it made S. Gammacor usable for me again, so it carries me through missions.

With this mindset Carrier is more itself than ever!

[Nep_Blanc]

Just now, kuliise said:

For old vs new players, sure, I'll agree with that. But what about players with 3k hours who never go past mastery rank 12, just because they don't want to tediously rank mastery fodder? 

thats their compromise to not farm that and not have fun farming the weapons and playing the game, mastery is meant to provide you a goal to achieve.
and if you don't see this as a good goal then why even play the game? (yes time constraints) Thing is the game wants you to farm the weapons and just experiment with them.
most weapons are left out because they seem mediocre at first but most are pretty much good weapons, aside from the somewhat broken UP assaults now.
BRRT BRRT uknow what I talk about.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[eksby]

1 minute ago, DoctorBagPhD said:

Honestly I think the biggest issue about this update (dude, where's my vacuum?) could have easily been avoided simply by keeping the Vacuum mod and allowing all sentinels/companions to equip it. I get not giving every sentinel 12m vacuum range off the bat, I get changing Carrier's precept, and I'm really thankful that we didn't go down that horrifyingly obtuse 3 mods route, but why not give players the opportunity to ramp up the vacuum distance if that's what they want or need?

Right now it feels as though the main point of this update was to try and hide a significant vacuum nerf inside a QOL update. It isn't good for the playerbase (who need to deal with this nonsense and feel as though they've been deceived) and it isn't good for DE (who're now on the receiving end of some justifiably annoyed player's rants).

The funniest part of this, for me, is that I rarely even used Carrier, so by all accounts I should be happy that my Diriga got a nice little Vacuum range to help with the chore of picking up loot. But honestly, I'm just really disappointed that the 80% of players that relied on Carrier (either as a survival strategy or to help avoid stopping gameplay to have to pick up loot) are getting kicked square in the nads. There are plenty of options for DE to choose from here, and I genuinely hope 'ignore the playerbase, they'll stop complaining eventually' isn't the one they go down.

Agree with this, I'm one of the players who used Carrier primarily because vacuum made the gameplay for me more fun. Honestly, I don't really understand why they needed to nerf vacuum, I mean 80% of players used Carrier for a reason...I don't know about you, but 80% is a pretty significant number. 

If they would simply make vacuum toggleable, and tied to your Warframe, and 12m, that would benefit everyone and everyone would be happy about the changes. Seriously, why is there a need to nerf vacuum? It was by no means "overpowered," all it was was a QoL thing that 80% of players preferred. 

[-Kryptyk-]

stop re-posting.  your threads have already been locked or removed from spamming the same things.