Bladestorm rework feedback

[rudman88]

So you all decide to change the only real ninja ability in a space ninja game xd

[njdevil2k12]

On 10/7/2016 at 1:43 PM, TaylorsContraction said:

From Dev Stream #81:

"There has been a lot of discussion surrounding this rework, but no real answers. Well, Ash fans, we have some info for you:
In order to make Bladestorm more interactive, but keep the same feel behind the animation, we’re planning on making the following changes:

• You will now Mark the enemies that will be attacked.
• Ash will attack each Marked enemy only once, but multitaged enemies will also be taken care of by your shadows.
• Holding 4 will allow you to Mark enemies, and energy will be consumed for each Mark (instead of a toggled drain).
• A damage buff might also be included to offset the LOS nerf."

 

First cast, you're scanning, 2nd cast you activate the ability. It's not comfortable to hold abilities, just a QoL :).

you shouldn't need to hold 4 to tag.... you should just press it once to do the initial tag and to release the fury press it again so you aren't constricting your fingers, just a suggestion... double tap to kill basically.

Edited October 12, 2016 by njdevil2k12
typo

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

And you made a fine case defending your comment. Well done.

I'm thinking that you and I read the same literature, because that was dry as it gets, the only way it could have been better is if you'd prefaced it with 'Yes, dear'. Thanks, today's been crappy and you put a smile on my face, and I hope I get to see you in game some time!

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

It takes little effort in passing your mouse over an enemy. You can just wave past a group of mobs.

And it shouldn't be a race to get the most kills anyway, that is whee balance begins to fail. Because people are trying to get the most kills, in the least time with the least effort possible.

Shh. Some people are still clinging to the idea that it is literally impossible to mark 2 enemies without your team killing the first one. Don't ruin their kvetching! If you do then what will they have to complain about?!

 

1 hour ago, njdevil2k12 said:

you shouldn't need to hold 4 to tag.... you should just press it once to do the initial tag and to release the fury press it again so you aren't constricting your fingers, just a suggestion... double tap to kill basically.

Yeah, I agree with this. Holding will be annoying. I'm not looking forward to trying to maneuver while holding 4. Although I already use a few dedicated buttons for powers, so that may help. (I'll probably set control to 4, that might be easier to use)

[Racter]

I'd like to see the following. Shuriken gains one additional projectile for normal fire. Additionally, you can hold to switch to alt fire mode (Quiver, Minelayer) which fires 6 Shuriken horizontally for the same total damage (each does half of regular fire). Increase base duration of Smoke Screen to 10s, change animation to allow removal of ground requirement. Teleport changed to be given animation priority, to allow it to work more consistently. All enemies hit by Shuriken/Smoke Screen/Teleport are automatically marked for 10s. If Bladestorm is activated during these 10s, all marked enemies are immediately attacked. If Bladestorm is active while another ability is used, all enemies affected are attacked immediately.

Make Bladestorm a toggle, along the lines of Artemis Bow. Aiming in the general direction of an enemy (~5m cone) will instantly send Ash to attack that target, plus up to 3 more (with clones) within 5-10m. Energy is drained per attack, not per second. Current finisher animations/damage is maintained, but instead of scaling off melee combo as it does currently, it uses the combo system ala Landslide/Rhino Charge/etc. Ash is invulnerable to health damage during combo duration (base 1s), like other similar abilities. Cast range reduced to 30m, down from 50m current (half of Teleport). Interactive via constant aiming, far faster and more fitting of current game pace than the rework previewed on dev stream, keeps general theme and animations of current Bladestorm, buffs damage without directly buffing damage via superior ability combo vs melee combo.

Synergy without dependence. Reduced effectiveness and LoS restricted, as intended, but still usable (and IMO anyway, more fun to use).

Edited October 12, 2016 by Racter

[Azrael]

4 minutes ago, Racter said:

Energy is drained per attack, not per second.

The proposed rework is not energy per second drain, it is per mark.

[Racter]

Just now, Azrael said:

The proposed rework is not energy per second drain, it is per mark.

I am aware of how their rework operates. I don't think it will be at all useful, so I proposed an alternative mechanic.

[Ergo-Proxy]

I just watched the latest Devstream that included a preview of the possible direction that the Ash Rework is taking for Blade Storm.

As an operator, I main Ash for all mission types. People complain about Blade Storm needing "help." However, Ash's other powers could use a serious look also. What do you think of these suggestion? *Ash's clones should be involved in all his abilities, not just his ultimate. These suggestions try to incorporate that.*

Shuriken: Ash and his two clones each throw 2 shurikens for a total of 6 per cast. Shurikens ricochet off enemies, have innate bleeding proc, and a chance to disarm (think Shuriken to enemies hand holding gun/weapon).

Smoke Screen: Ash and his two clones each throw a smoke bomb that leaves a small cloud of smoke where each bomb is detonated that lasts the duration of Ash's invisibility. Allies/pets that walk into smoke will be granted remaining invisibility. Enemies that walk into smoke will be blinded or stunned. This works well with smoke shadow and removes the need for a 5 meter radius to affect allies. (Allow recasting of smoke screen? No? Kay.)

Teleport: Ash and his two clones all teleport to 3 different enemies and perform a finisher attack. If at least one of the enemies are killed, Ash will be granted a maximum of 5 sec invisibility to perform another teleport kill. Enemies that survive the attack have critical areas exposed that will cause critical damage when shot/melee attacked. The three enemies can be marked just like it was shown in Devstream 81.

Blade Storm: Ash and his two clones throw an endless amount of shurikens at lightning speed (toggle ability like Exalted blade with aiming involved) causing bleeding damage that bypasses armor and shields. All shurikens thrown ricochet off enemies before ultimately embedding in an enemy. A bleed meter fills up as more enemies end up bleeding from shuriken attacks. Once bleed meter is filled, embedded Shuriken explode, causing finisher damage.

I sincerely hope that some of these ideas peak your interest and help or inspire your great team as your dedication to your fans have inspired me to keep on playing this awesome game.

[Tizodd]

Best bet is to wait and see how it works in-game.  Bladestorm definitely needs a nerf, so [DE] has to start somewhere.

After that, hopefully they can tackle the Simulor and Tonkor.

[StealthyCARNAGE]

As probably quite a few others, I'm not too big of a fan of what was demo'd during the 81st livestream.

While I think the idea of making Bladestorm require more user input is not fundamentally bad, it's kinda not enough. All it really does in the end is make the ability more cumbersome to use but doesn't actually do anything to make up for it. It's just a nerf, and nothing else. And considering that in the current state his 4 basically carries his kit... yeah. So seeing how his other abilities could also use some changes, might as well, right?

So without further ado, let's get to it:

Shuriken - Too be honest, I'm not quite sure how to change this one (bad start, I know). I only have, like, a vague idea. That would be to change it into something similar to the Glaive in Dark Sector (the game, not the mode in Warframe), and let's you take control of it. Overall, it would work like this: You'll throw a single, highly spammable projectile with the same basic targeting as it has now. Just by holding the button for half a second, or whatever, longer you'll be able to "assume direct control" of your current projectile. Controls work the same as Ivara's Navigator ability (mayhaps even with the same or similar bonuses/multipliers). Pressing the ability button again will result in the Shuriken detonating, causing damage in a certain radius. Furthermore, should the control aspect come with damage multipliers, similar to Navigator, the detonation will also benefit from said multipliers. For balance's sake, it could also work more like Equinox' maim, where it 'stores' up more damage the more damage is done. Range could, for example, also be increased by it. Lastly, Shuriken benefits from melee mods.

Smoke Screen - This one is a bit less thorough. Simply put, the ability becomes recastable and the augment innate. Meanwhile, the new augment would remove the ability to recast but in turn either A: allows you to perform a certain action (for example: headshots, crits, etc.) in order to extend duration and not require energy; or B: allows you to maintain a certain state (for example: don't lose x amount of shield, keep your stealth kill multiplier, etc.) in order to extend duration and not require energy.

Teleport - This change is even smaller and is simply an addition to the targeting systems. That is, pressing and holding the button will allow you to directly teleport to whatever place you're currently aiming at. No target required.

Bladestorm - And finally, the crux of the whole change. This actually has two parts to it. Firstly, it's changed into a toggle ability. So when you toggle it on, much like Excalibros Exalted Blade or Valkyrs Hysteria ability, doing so will reveal your assassin blades, whatever. Difference is, rather than having a normal melee mode, pressing melee will cause you to teleport to to your target and perform a Bladestorm finisher animation. After the animation is performed, you'll get a little combo window, just like Atlas' Landslide ability. Attacking another target while the window is open will allow you to regain some of your energy and also grant you the usual bonuses. Additionally, should previous targets still be alive, they'll be atacked by up to two clones. So while you jump to a next target, a clone will appear and atack the previous target. Jump to another one, and your first target will be jumped by a second clone, while your second target will be jumped by your first clone. So they'll basically follow you around like a pair of ducklings, taking apart everything you pecked at first (god i'm so punny muhahaha). Alternatively, you could also just spam one target, causing you to take turns with your two clones to butcher one guy. The second part is essentially what DE has shown during the stream. The interesting part about this is that it works completely independently of whether you're toggled in or not, kinda like a second passive. So by holding right click you'll mark targets, and by holding the ability button you cast it. As an example, you could use it in the middle of a firefight, or you could also be toggled in, then mark one group of dudes and have your clones slaughter them, while you yourself combo-pounce from one guy to the next in another direction. So you have something like internal ability synergy with that.

 

Well, those are my ideas anyway.

Edited October 13, 2016 by S.C.

[Kappa64]

Free aim teleport would make parkour completely obsolete, and the idea of another channeled ability makes me want to vomit. It's going to be the next "Press 4 to Win" at this rate.

[Lord.Kaho]

Probably the most interesting rework that I've read out of the bunch.
What I like about this is it doesn't change a lot of what Ash already is but rather just combines everything into one good stuff.

I'd like to see this kind of Ash and hopefully the Devs could see it and probably consider adding synergy to his skills even if it isn't exactly like this.

 

[(XBOX)Drvnzer]

1 hour ago, Kappa64 said:

Free aim teleport would make parkour completely obsolete, and the idea of another channeled ability makes me want to vomit. It's going to be the next "Press 4 to Win" at this rate.

Well to me it should make parkour obsolete. I mean teleport cost energy while parkour is the basic movement

[StealthyCARNAGE]

1 hour ago, Kappa64 said:

Free aim teleport would make parkour completely obsolete, and the idea of another channeled ability makes me want to vomit. It's going to be the next "Press 4 to Win" at this rate.

I'd say it'd make it about just as obsolete as Valkyr's Ripline ability or Zephyr's Tail Wind. And it can easily be balanced by changing the energy cost depending on target or no target.

And press 4 to win abilities generally have a much larger area of effect, like, for example, current Ash. Nova being another great example. And anything that would be 'off' about the toggle could, once again, easily be fixed by changing up the energy cost per second vs energy cost regained per combo. So you'll have, like, a race against time kind of situation. Similar to trying to keep yourself alive with Life Strike while getting swamped with enemies.

So I don't think what you're saying is quite accurate.

[VojnikFrost]

Super simple, but dare I say better than most? You made realistic suggestions that wouldn't be absolute coding hell, and your satire amuses me.

[Oranji]

2 minutes ago, KoherJavenal said:

Super simple, but dare I say better than most? You made realistic suggestions that wouldn't be absolute coding hell, and your satire amuses me.

I have like zero knowledge about codes and stuff. I dunno how simple or complex this is so I just assumed that it isn't possible.
Glad that you liked it.

[Pyrosicle]

This rework is going to ruin Ash, just like they did Mesa.

The old Mesa was so cool, a complete badass. When they changed her, they took most of the cool element away.

Now they are going to do this this Ash. The change is going to be impractical. If you have time to mark an enemy, you have time to shoot them. When I was watching them on Devstream playing the changed Bladestorm, I noticed they would be just running past them marking them and then executing it at once. What a waste of time. Instead of marking them, she could have shot them instead. Manual aiming will make it much tougher to play, impractical and I believe it will be a large nerf.

Bladestorm does need to change a little bit, but they don't have to completely change it. They should just make the marked enemies killable and have an option to exit Bladestorm early.

[_Iye]

20 minutes ago, Pyrosicle said:

Now they are going to do this this Ash. The change is going to be impractical. If you have time to mark an enemy, you have time to shoot them. When I was watching them on Devstream playing the changed Bladestorm, I noticed they would be just running past them marking them and then executing it at once. What a waste of time. Instead of marking them, she could have shot them instead. Manual aiming will make it much tougher to play, impractical and I believe it will be a large nerf.

Agree, marking will simply kill valuable time and may become the reason of getting killed.

 

21 minutes ago, Pyrosicle said:

Bladestorm does need to change a little bit, but they don't have to completely change it. They should just make the marked enemies killable and have an option to exit Bladestorm early.

May be DE doesn't know how to fix things simply and quickly and besides it has a large confused and complicated community to take care of so I'd rather say its pretty difficult on their end to do things if its simple. Your points are just the ones which doesn't go with co-op strategy and yeah those could do the trick.

[Volinus7]

Remove bs

give him onions to cut as ult

[Profit62]

Great ideas an to help with shuriken,it would be cool if he threw a barrage of shuriken like in ninja assassin.  It would be great in high level gameplay, and that way we don't have to worry  about the targeting bugs and still be able to hit  multiple targets

Edited October 13, 2016 by Profit62

[Noobverest]

To me, Ash feels like it kind of sucks without Bladestorm, so I kind of understand why people are salty about the nerf and I understand why people who don't play ash get salty about ash players

Ash is a weird frame which doesn't do anything better than other frames.

If we're talking about shuriken and armor shredding/bleeding. Saryn procs > bleeding and Mag shield polarize shreds armor faster, better, and in a larger aoe so gg shuriken

If we're talking about invis and aoe stun then Loki does invis better than Ash. Naramon does invis better than Ash. Equinox does aoe cc better than Ash, heck the sleep augmented is so good it's not even fair.

If we're talking about teleport, its in a weird position. Sure, if I want to jump into a mob of enemies it's probably the second best teleport in game, Nova wins because it teleports you AND allies AND you can use it whenever. At higher levels, teleporting into a mob is suicide so that shuts it down completely, UNLIKE Loki and Nova, Loki and the decoy/switch tele is versatile, you can die if you want to die but you can just teleport elsewhere. Nova, same thing.

If we're talking about bladestorm... the only thing that makes it annoying is really the invincible frame that holds enemies like ancients. If we're talking about killing speed, Mesa kills WAY FASTER than Ash. If you think otherwise then um idk eat pie. Equinox kills WAY FASTER than Ash, just press maim after charging, ezpz lemon squeezy. Only real issue is that Ash is such a lazy &#! frame where you just hit 4 and the stupid invul frames..... I think the suggestion with E spam might be better than a toggle or a hold 4, because it's amazingly hard to hold onto something while bullet jumping or something on PC (maybe even harder on controller, i don't know.) and there won't be invul frames

 

TL;DR

Toggle/holding for bladestorm sounds crappy, I want E spam. Take away Bladestorm from Ash = Ash becomes trash because other frames can do what he does but better.

On 2016-10-09 at 10:14 PM, NativeKiller said:

1) Press 4 to toggle 'Bladestorm'

2) Hit a heavy enemy with augmented shuriken to remove armor completely

3) Close the distance against the enemy with 'Bladestorm' dash

4) Pop up 'Smoke Screen'

5) Spam 'E' until the enemy is dead, then kill all lesser mooks around with E spam as well

 

 

^ this guys E spam

Edited October 13, 2016 by Noobverest

[ZombieLorde91]

A funny thing I've always thought of... why not make the Blade Storm target only 1 enemy but he ninja slashes the ever loving **** out of that target really fast and really hard from different directions? Keep Ash invulnerable but the target stunned and well... dying.

Slightly increase the damage potential... maybe by actually allowing melee mods to affect Bladestorm? Currently only very few melee mods affect it.

Ash is based on ninjas... which are assassins in feudal era Japan... so it would make since that it be a very strong offensive ultimate.

[kaliazane]

Why not just make it global range toggle type like Ember's WoF. That would make me play him again.

DE, get on that right now !

[(XBOX)DreamyRelic80]

On 10/10/2016 at 2:45 AM, LunarEdge7 said:

From my view, any and all kinds of finishers needs both the executor and the victim of the finisher to be invulnerable until after the animation and damage is applied.

The invulnerability only leaves the enemy free-moving for about 1-1.5 seconds before Ash gets to "finish" them.

I'm more surprised why people aren't complaining about how easily a Mirage with her clones could Simulor-vortex all the other players in a squad, faster than Ash.

Not the nerf we want, but the nerf we deserve 

[Suspectaque]

7 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Why not just make it global range toggle type like Ember's WoF. That would make me play him again.

DE, get on that right now !

IIRC They made Bladestorm like WoF where his clones would kill everything and they said it was extremely OP.