Bladestorm rework feedback

[Virsalus]

On 8.10.2016 at 11:58 AM, Tsoe said:

 

The rework sound very cool in fact

it change a lot actually...

_you can multi mark 1 ennemie

_you have to think and aim while avoiding bullets instead of mindlessly pressing 4

_create a synergy with smoke bomb

 

you wont be immortal while locking targets

 

now it open another question will they change teleport?

Teleport will have to change cause it will be just overlapping since you can Bladestorm 1 ennemie only if you want

Have fun, thinking and aiming in a hectic situation where high level enemies can kill you in one or two shots.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, aerosoul1337 said:

In the video, Rebeca had trouble marking more than 5 targets in a "solo play"

First of all, maybe we can handle only marking 5 targets. The current "I'm nuking the entire room while I drink this coke, y'all might wanna sit down" bladestorm is ridiculous and far more powerful than other damage ults. You don't have some god-given right to get 80% of the kills just because you decided to play ash.

Second, Rebecca isn't exactly a pro at using this ability. I mean, how could she be? It just came out on the dev build. I'm sure with some practice and a little bit of skill you could do better than that.

I have my own concerns about usability, and I think maybe the mark should be a small AoE around the target (marking other nearby enemies). But I'm betting (betting 'cause none of us know how it feels to use) that what we saw will be a lot more effective once we get used to it and learn to build for it and use it.

[aerosoul1337]

31 minutes ago, Azrael said:

First of all, maybe we can handle only marking 5 targets. The current "I'm nuking the entire room while I drink this coke, y'all might wanna sit down" bladestorm is ridiculous and far more powerful than other damage ults. You don't have some god-given right to get 80% of the kills just because you decided to play ash.

 

I got your point, of course, blade storm is very strong atm.

Because it has been indirectly buffed several times:
1.The introduction of Arcane Trickery.
2.The change of: Melee finisher effected by Fury mod.
3.The introduction of Primed Fury.
4.The introduction of passive.
(And a direct buff that steel charge effects blade storm after Ash prime released.)

I do NOT want it to be a god tier massacre button either, it feels boring. But the rework isn't really interactive or skillful. It ends up nondescript.
A lot of players' ideas are far more creative and synergy better with other abilities.

But the demo version seems a lot worse than just "teleport + E", and what if 2 Ash players take their but they marked the same targets, it's just waste of time.

And a lot of frames can clear the entire room with several spin by telos boltace.

Anyways, I think a full rework for Ash will be better, make his abilities synergy with each other, and provide some support to allies. I don't mind his ult to be redesigned completely, it doesn't even have to be blade storm for me.
 

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, aerosoul1337 said:

A lot of players' ideas are far more creative and synergy better with other abilities.

This I agree with. I've seen some solid ideas on the forums. I'm not actually defending the rework, I'm just arguing against the ridiculous statements I see sometimes like "ash is going to be 100% useless" or "BS doesn't need to be nerfed." I feel like they did the least creative thing they could think of. But I still feel like it'll be manageable if they release it as-is.

[aerosoul1337]

14 minutes ago, Azrael said:

This I agree with. I've seen some solid ideas on the forums. I'm not actually defending the rework, I'm just arguing against the ridiculous statements I see sometimes like "ash is going to be 100% useless" or "BS doesn't need to be nerfed." I feel like they did the least creative thing they could think of. But I still feel like it'll be manageable if they release it as-is.

Yeah, that's why I want a full rework not just blade storm.

Currently, a lot frames heavily relies on a single ability which is not a good design.

I can play Vauban with his 3 only;
Valkyr with her 4 only;
Atlas with his 1 only;
Nyx with her 3 only... etc.
 

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Vohim]

1 hour ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Actually, it is a lot worse if you watch the video and read some replies here. LoS nerf and slow targeting, slow execution.

You used to mark 18 targets instantly, you used to be able to attack the same target up to 17 times, you used to have 3 instances that attack at the same time, and up to 51 attacks total.

In the video, Rebecca had trouble marking more than 5 targets in a "solo play", despite Scott said it is bugged that it auto multi-mark all target by default already, it is still slow and awkward.
And the problem is, you do the kill yourself (no shadow). If you mark 5 targets, you will have to see the animation 5 times.
The shadows only do the extra hit for the multi-marked enemies, so it will takes a lot more time than current bladestorm (3 instances attack).

But your targets will probably be killed by your teammates first.
Just Teleport and press E is a lot efficient, and deals more damage.

I thought the worse case is making it a stance, but this prototype is just so wrong.

the only wrong thing it has is  making it a press and hold to target ability rather than a toggle , other than that it seems fine and if anything they did they they might buff it  a bit to compensate wich  i call bull when it not only has the highest base damage in  game but its also Finisher damage, as for rebecca having trouble , she was just trying the rework  and theres the fact it was a Bursas,Hyekka masters and  Drekar manics only game, I think a better solution could've been simply  making  each target add to the energy cost of the ability  and dont make marked enemies unkillable for everyone else, since that would tackle both the spammable low cost  and the anti team annoyance.

6 hours ago, DasBlues said:

I feel like DE just made this so called "rework" as a lazy fix to make the community shut up about ash complaints, I think DE should hold off the rework, focus of finishing War Within, then properly make a rework so that his abilities synergize together. As an avid ash (prime player) I feel like ash is so reliant on his bladestorm that literally everything else about him is overshadowed. DE should come up with a set of abilities that work kinda like saryn, where there's setup before the massive damage. Or maybe an exalted hidden blades weapon that can allow his other abilities to come into play here. Sorry for the rant, just my 2cents

kinda how they nerfed hysteria because everyone else cried that  being invulnerable is OP , even though it made valkyr useless in  every other aspect of the game .

Ash is pretty viable his invisibility and blind alone are huge .

Ash 's kit isnt underpowered so that  he relies in bladestorm but the other way around, bladestorm is so broken it makes everything else unnecesary.

funny you state "DE should come up with a set of abilities that work kinda like saryn, where there's setup before the massive damage" when that is exactly what the new change does, set up by targeting and multi targeting and then nuke everything .

 

[Shadew.exe]

On 7-10-2016 at 9:00 PM, Arrjo said:

Constant energy drain won't let you do such thing.

Say that to ivara

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

3 hours ago, Azrael said:

You don't have some god-given right to get 80% of the kills just because you decided to play ash.

I would like to point out that ash is the only frame I know that is a purely damage dealing frame(no bandaid auguments), so if the ash doesn't have atleast a second best kill count in the squad I think that player is doing something wrong, also I don't understand how people can find the bladestorm change better? I mean it's a prototype and all, but from what I saw, its basically the same thing as current bladestorm, just slower and with an extra step(kinda a nerf if you think about it) I understand that the bladestorm we have now is boring and really powerful, but the change Rebecca showed was clunky and slow, it especially didn't help when she DIED using ASH showcasing the BLADESTORM REWORK while using SMOKESCREEN, (also who the hell would showcase rework in a mission full of Bursas)

[Xianos_Chaos]

Watched, listened, and kinda understand their logic of this new ash rework.....I say the comedy pic done for ash prime speaks for this new rework.

 

Crippling him makes everybody but ash fans happy. (sarcastic claps)

[aerosoul1337]

3 hours ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

I would like to point out that ash is the only frame I know that is a purely damage dealing frame(no bandaid auguments), so if the ash doesn't have atleast a second best kill count in the squad I think that player is doing something wrong, also I don't understand how people can find the bladestorm change better? I mean it's a prototype and all, but from what I saw, its basically the same thing as current bladestorm, just slower and with an extra step(kinda a nerf if you think about it) I understand that the bladestorm we have now is boring and really powerful, but the change Rebecca showed was clunky and slow, it especially didn't help when she DIED using ASH showcasing the BLADESTORM REWORK while using SMOKESCREEN, (also who the hell would showcase rework in a mission full of Bursas)

Bursa can be bladestorm'ed too.
Hyekka master is a good target to test since there must be some hyekkas around.
Yes, it is really slow, teleport + E seems to be more practical and deals more damage.
Actually you can see that when she was in trouble, she just used smoke screen and spammed melee which did the kills faster.

The enemies are not the problem, it's the rework itself.

I really want to get rid of the animations already, it is the main issue of blade storm (enemy invulnerable to ally, and annoying camera).

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Actually, it is a lot worse if you watch the video and read some replies here. LoS nerf and slow targeting, slow execution.

You used to mark 18 targets instantly, you used to be able to attack the same target up to 17 times, you used to have 3 instances that attack at the same time, and up to 51 attacks total.

You know, you're not exactly wrong, but I don't think that this is actually all a bad thing.

And I really want to explain why I don't think Blade Storm will be worse. Or at least, why making it worse in this specific way, will make things better overall.

Let me see if I can put all my thoughts quickly and succinctly (I do tend to babble):

The issues that many people have with Blade Storm are many, but simple. The auto targeting, high damage that ignores all forms of defense, invulnerability during the animation, and the pure animation format with no interaction from the player while active allow for several things that other frames can't do, and also allow for one fatal flaw with the frame.

Auto targeting with invulnerability on cast means that you can ignore defense and simply kill through what would shoot at other frames, the instant you start taking damage, you can kill the source by pressing 4 with no negative repercussions like other frames would have, even if they were pressing 4 to get the same result. The high damage and instant delivery of it far outstrips the damage dealing capabilities of other frames, and even those that can plausibly keep up with the DPS have to expend more casts and more interactions to do so (for example Nova's AMD with 400k radiation-based radial damage per hit, able to be dropped once every 4 seconds or less, but locking you into that animation as surely as old Desecrate ever did and you're still vulnerable to ranged fire). And lastly, the fatal flaw, it outshines his other abilities so far that it effectively replaces them; Shuriken's augment Seeking Shuriken can strip armour, but he doesn't need to be cause BS deals Finisher, and more quickly; Smoke Screen offers invisibility and an area CC, but he doesn't need it because Bladestorm instantly makes him invulnerable while he's dealing damage to the enemies that the CC would affect; Teleport is deadly to anything with a Covert Lethality modded dagger, but again, who needs it when BS does the same for less button presses? In other words, a well modded Blade Storm Ash can ignore his other abilities entirely. No other frame has an ability that can do that.

Most importantly, the ability is boring. With no interaction and the complete safety of the cast, there is literally no reason to use anything else, and no reason to even pay attention to the screen for the duration.

So, with respect to players that use Ash interactively and actively want to use his three lesser abilities, and with respect to those that can mod him to do everything in one package, the huge, overwhelming majority is not the same as you.

So let's be clear, you're not exactly wrong.

Line of Sight is a Nerf. But it's been going around lately, to everything that isn't balanced by low range (Saryn) or low damage (Frost) or requiring damage build-up over time (Banshee). The game is being adjusted to make Line of Sight a default function and the ones that ignore it the vast minority. LoS will make him a fairer frame to play compared to others, even if his damage still out-classes them.

The 'forcing the targets to all be taken care of by Ash, and only multi-marks to be the clones', is also in some lights a Nerf. It can also be seen as a buff. Two reasons. First is because the damage is so high, a multi-mark on a single target can deal around 21k direct Finisher damage, and total over 60k Finisher from the Bleed, which is enough to take care of any single enemy (no matter the faction) up to level 140 in one cast. And second? Because you can pick any one target, kill them and be out of the animation quickly and easily, not being kept in the same animation for the entire duration of attacks that would come currently. If there is a high priority target, you can take them out without touching the others around, or you can wave the wand over as many as you have energy for and kill them all (or at least highly damage them all) by sacrificing your time while the animations play out. Currently, you can't attack the same target 18 times if there's even one other target in range, it bounces between them, and you have to attack all targets in range even if you don't want to. Having a choice is always good, no matter the ability.

Overall... I think this is a much needed way to bring back some interactivity to Ash, or to at least break up his build and how boring he is to many other players, without (and this is key) without changing anything else to the ability that would be true and effective nerfs.

A true nerf would be to change his damage to Slash, not Finisher. A true Nerf would be to make the ability fixed range from origin, instead of jumping to next target in a range from the target, so you couldn't have the effective range you do currently. A true nerf would be forcing him to only be able to attack once per target, instead of multiple times (yes it's being brought down to three in the build we saw, but it could be raised back up to 18 times per enemy if DE wanted to please more people, we don't know, it's in progress). A true Nerf would be to leave the ability as-is and make each attack cost the same energy as the cast, meaning that every cast left him completely drained of energy, and without Primed Flow, unable to attack the full 18 times.

All I'm saying is that, in terms of actually nerfing the ability, this... well, this balance pass could actually make the ability better to hundreds, if not thousands, of players in the game.

Actually... that comment earlier... raising the attacks per target cap... that would be a true Blade Storm, right? You stab once, seventeen clones appear and all stab the same thing in rapid succession? That's some ninja stuff going on there XD

I mean, if it was that? That would be way more powerful, and with the 'press 4 to toggle marking mode, press again to cast' instead of the hold-the-button we saw, we would have a very easy to cast ability that would unleash a Storm of Blades.

 

Crap... I've babbled again. Hope I haven't lost you.

[aerosoul1337]

56 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

You know, you're not exactly wrong, but I don't think that this is actually all a bad thing.

A true Nerf would be to make the ability fixed range from origin, instead of jumping to next target in a range from the target, so you couldn't have the effective range you do currently.

(Your cognition about blade storm is wrong, for example, blade storm is fixed range from your first target, not jumped range. There was never "jumped chain effect". All your targets are chosen at the moment you start it. I have enough knowledge to maintain a lot of wiki pages for years.)

Anyways...

The main issue of blade storm is "enemy invulnerable to ally, and the annoying "camera".

But this problem remains.

We have seen a lot of solid rework threads form the forums that solve those issues and also make it more team-play oriented, and also not make it overpowered.

Currently, the official version is an awkward nerfwork, not a real rework, that's why I am disappointed.

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337
fix typo

[Chewarette]

29 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

All I'm saying is that, in terms of actually nerfing the ability, this... well, this balance pass could actually make the ability better to hundreds, if not thousands, of players in the game.

How ?

Once every Ash player will switch to Mirage or whatever "press 4 to nuke room" for the "easy mode", will you consider the game is balanced and better for everyone ?

[Nazrethim]

54 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

The issues that many people have with Blade Storm are many, but simple. The auto targeting, high damage that ignores all forms of defense, invulnerability during the animation, and the pure animation format with no interaction from the player while active allow for several things that other frames can't do, and also allow for one fatal flaw with the frame.

And all of those could have been easily solved by making it a Stance Ultimate with AoE clone-summoning multi-target Blade Storm on Finisher attacks. Therefore making it interactive, not making teleport pointless and without bull invulnerability. I even suggested making only the 'pause' combo only trigger finisher attacks, that way the mindless E-spam of Exalted Blade wouldn't repeat.

54 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Most importantly, the ability is boring. With no interaction and the complete safety of the cast, there is literally no reason to use anything else, and no reason to even pay attention to the screen for the duration.

And with the rework you have no reason to cast Shuriken or Teleport, and you need Smoke Screen not because it synergizes with the new BS but because you NEED a safe way to mark the bazillion enemies shooting at you (while also avoiding marking a f*cking ancient or generally hoping a Nullifier won't unmark your targets)

54 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Overall... I think this is a much needed way to bring back some interactivity to Ash, or to at least break up his build and how boring he is to many other players, without (and this is key) without changing anything else to the ability that would be true and effective nerfs.

Except that it IS a nerf disguised as "rework" that insn't actually a rework but a tweak to the tageting system and literally nothing else. It's not a stat nerf but a mechanical nerf.

54 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

A true nerf would be to change his damage to Slash, not Finisher. A true Nerf would be to make the ability fixed range from origin, instead of jumping to next target in a range from the target, so you couldn't have the effective range you do currently. A true nerf would be forcing him to only be able to attack once per target, instead of multiple times (yes it's being brought down to three in the build we saw, but it could be raised back up to 18 times per enemy if DE wanted to please more people, we don't know, it's in progress). A true Nerf would be to leave the ability as-is and make each attack cost the same energy as the cast, meaning that every cast left him completely drained of energy, and without Primed Flow, unable to attack the full 18 times.

So... Conclave Blade Storm? Because that's exactly what it sounds, and it's THE weakest offensive ultimate in the game, with Slash Dash (a basic) being far superior.

54 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

All I'm saying is that, in terms of actually nerfing the ability, this... well, this balance pass could actually make the ability better to hundreds, if not thousands, of players in the game.

Except DE will probably leave Ash to rot, because they made absolutely NOTHING to adresss the miriad of issues with his whole kit, they just solved the issue "press42win" and added "get killed or waste time marking targets that will die in 2s by a Miramulor or will be saved by a f*cking nullifier".

14 hours ago, DasBlues said:

I feel like DE just made this so called "rework" as a lazy fix to make the community shut up about ash complaints, I think DE should hold off the rework, focus of finishing War Within, then properly make a rework so that his abilities synergize together. As an avid ash (prime player) I feel like ash is so reliant on his bladestorm that literally everything else about him is overshadowed. DE should come up with a set of abilities that work kinda like saryn, where there's setup before the massive damage. Or maybe an exalted hidden blades weapon that can allow his other abilities to come into play here. Sorry for the rant, just my 2cents

I 100% agree with you. I have a "unique" (mechanically at least) idea for an Exalted hidden blades that brings synergy to the whole kit (by making a full rework without convoluted and confusing abilities that would be a nightmare to actually implement. Check it out :3

Spoiler

 

Now with TL;DR!

[Sandtiger1987]

Ash is my second most played frame and here are my thoughts on what i saw. I am not a big bladestorm user. I use it mostly as an "oh S#&$" button. The biggest problem that I have is that it takes too much time for all the animations to complete. What i would prefer without disregarding all the devs' work and decisions is to show only one or two of the finisher animations. Even without considering the animations, the current version of the rework looks too slow. Most enemies will be dead by the time the manual marking completes or the teammates i am trying to help.

[-_Highlander_-]

:) iam so happy with this nerf ( Sarcasm off )

[aerosoul1337]

1 hour ago, GameKingMike334 said:

:) iam so happy with this nerf ( Sarcasm off )

Well this saves 165 plat for you. (and for me)

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

31 minutes ago, Sandtiger1987 said:

Ash is my second most played frame and here are my thoughts on what i saw. I am not a big bladestorm user. I use it mostly as an "oh S#&$" button. The biggest problem that I have is that it takes too much time for all the animations to complete. What i would prefer without disregarding all the devs' work and decisions is to show only one or two of the finisher animations. Even without considering the animations, the current version of the rework looks too slow. Most enemies will be dead by the time the manual marking completes or the teammates i am trying to help.

Exactly! not the animations again. The animations are too slow and the camera is super annoying.

Even just stabbing blades on the target directly (like javelins) will be much better, this also solves the issue that enemies become invulnerable to others. But it should still be a "finisher" so that arcane trickery and melee combo still work.

Edited October 11, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Xaentrick]

Looking over this topic I feel like my two cents will just be looked over in this massive topic. So here goes.

Looking over the video and all of the feedback I think the change shown is not really a good one. My main reason for thinking this is the fact that a person can just sweep over several enemies and it will be almost as if no change happened. DE says they wanted to keep the core identity Of ash the same. However I feel that while bladestorm is an iconic ability of his, it is nowhere near his core identity. Ash is supposed to be a frame that mixes lethality with stealth. As much as I hate to say it bladestorm does not do this in the slightest. There is nothing stealthy about an armed space ninja jumping from one enemy to the next. 

When they first talked about changes to blade storm they wanted to make it more interactive and to remove the one button room clear. What they showed accomplished neither of those things. The way they described it you could clear several rooms with just holding the button down. As for interactivity, it's pretty much the same mindless activity as before. Only with less input from the player as the more targets you mark the longer you are attacking.

Possible solutions:

The clones were originally brought in to speed up bladestorm in the beginning. So the clones are the first thing that can be tossed in the trash along with the current bladestorm. Now we have Ash with three iconic ninja abilities. Shuriken, smoke bomb, and teleport, each one unique when first introduced. With this done we can see what Ash's strengths are currently. Shuriken adds a nice bleed proc to enemies yet the damage itself is considered low while it auto tracks targets. A suggested change would be too remove the multishot and tracking while increasing size and damage. Turning it into a skill shot would justify a damage increase even if it is only marginal. As right now it is described as a spinning disc of pain that impales enemies to walls. I have played ash for a long time and have never seen it do so. So let's make it happen 

Next is smoke bomb, this is by far one of my favorite abilities on ash. As it gives him survivability and allows him to move unseen. However again it has a misleading description in that it says it blinds enemies. It only staggers them for a second or two. While I don't know of any possible fix other than a small cloud being left behind that obscures enemy vision. Not much can be said for this ability.

Up next is teleport, while some would like a free range teleport without a target. I do not see the need as this currently allows for one of the strongest combos in game. Nothing can be said about this from me.

Finally there is his fourth ability, now we all know ash was the first frame in game to habe built in weapons. These weapons are his wrist blades. A lot of suggestions have been made over the years on this matter. Some say he needs a stance, others say he needs something they have seen in an anime. While others say what he has is perfect already. Personally I believe he deserved a stance ult so he can use those blades. Combine them with teleport so you can habe your instant takedown. While he most certainly does not need giant energy waves coming from his blades. He needs to have the identity that DE intended. Not this flashy legal killer, but the hidden assassin that waits for the right move to strike down a critical foe with lethal and unseen damage.

 

Like I said, this is just my two cents, love it, hate it, it's my own personal opinion.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

Like people have said toggle on choose your enemies and toggle to activate

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, aerosoul1337 said:

(Your cognition about blade storm is wrong, for example, blade storm is fixed range from your first target, not jumped range. There was never "jumped chain effect". All your targets are chosen at the moment you start it. I have enough knowledge to maintain a lot of wiki pages for years.)

Thank you. Also, yes, the camera is a little disorienting, so there's that too. But no, the invulnerability is only on the enemy targeted, so you can still kill any enemy except the one Ash or a clone is currently attacking, at most that's three out of eighteen currently on-screen enemies, which is only an annoyance if it's the last enemy left. (Point of anecdotal reference, I've actually used this one to effectively troll an Ash player by waiting for the red glow, killing the enemies in range and watching him be forced to sit there attacking the same enemy over and over, so it's less an annoyance for me than for them.)

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

How ?

Once every Ash player will switch to Mirage or whatever "press 4 to nuke room" for the "easy mode", will you consider the game is balanced and better for everyone ?

Nope, because Mirage can't nuke a room with 4 either. With a Synoid Simulor, actually yes, she can, but that's pressing 1. Ash is the last of the Press 4 to Win crowd, so I'm not exactly broken up over this. Happy is a strong word for anything in the current state of Warframe, but I do think this will be an improvement. If you can't see how, then you're not very open minded about possibilities, and I do hope your that improves as things go on.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

And all of those could have been easily solved by making it a Stance Ultimate

I'm fairly certain DE considered this. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been better, but there does seem to be a policy about these changes they make and have been making.

DE doesn't change what the ability is or does, just how you do it. There's only one ability in game where they've completely removed it and replaced it with something else, and that's Excal's Super Jump, which literally became obsolete with the new Bullet Jump. Everything else they've just changed the mechanics on how it functions, or added to it. Overheat became Accelerant due to the switch from a defensive buff plus an offensive one to an offensive buff plus a crowd control. Snowglobe was changed in function, but it's still Snowglobe.

A full rework runs the risk that it would go against the original design of the frame, which they really don't want to do (unless it's Excal, but you could argue that they made him more like the Swordsman frame he was designed as... in any case, they really don't like doing that). Which means that, without changing who Ash is, and without addressing the rest of his kit (take the good with the bad there), they've managed to put a lid on the majority of the complaints with that ability.

So when you think about how they're changing the ability, they aren't changing what Blade Storm is, or does, just how you do it.

Does he need a full rework? I'm not going to bring that in that's for other debates. Does the change solve the biggest complaints that people have been throwing at DE constantly about Blade Storm from the people not exploiting it as a 4 to Win? I would say Mostly. Does it count as a Rework then? Only because the mechanics are being messed with, the ability itself is still Blade Storm. Would a Stance be better? Actually, I don't know. I feel that it wouldn't unless they took way more time on it, there's a lot of Exalted Stance abilities now, and not all of them have worked out well for the players (I'm looking at you Wukong...) I think that for the short term I'd rather have a hastily adjusted manual target Blade Storm ability than a badly implemented Stance.

I'm not discounting the idea of fixing him properly, I just think that out of the things they could have done, this isn't actually a bad one.

That said... this:

1 hour ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Exactly! not the animations again. The animations are too slow and the camera is super annoying.

It made me think about my earlier comment, too, and what if... just throwing it out there... what if the marked targets were all attacked by clones instead of Ash? If Ash simply charged up by draining a charge of energy per Mark and cast clones at everything marked on release, allowing him to be nearly completely animation free?

Think of it as a manual target, much stronger, Radial Javelin, except you're throwing holo-Ash at your target instead of an energy sword. It keeps the radial effect, prevents you from being animation locked longer than the cast time of other frames radial 4 abilities, but retains that 'assassin' vibe that you would get by multi-marking a single target to deal immense damage instead of just slashing at everything in reach.

Thoughts?

[aerosoul1337]

10 minutes ago, Xaentrick said:

Possible solutions:

Up next is teleport, while some would like a free range teleport without a target. I do not see the need as this currently allows for one of the strongest combos in game. Nothing can be said about this from me.

Finally there is his fourth ability, now we all know ash was the first frame in game to habe built in weapons. These weapons are his wrist blades. Personally I believe he deserved a stance ult so he can use those blades. Combine them with teleport so you can habe your instant takedown. While he most certainly does not need giant energy waves coming from his blades. He needs to have the identity that DE intended. Not this flashy legal killer, but the hidden assassin that waits for the right move to strike down a critical foe with lethal and unseen damage.

Hmmm, teleport is supposed to be a very strong, tactical and tricky ability in an action game.
Just look at this game named  Furi, your main ability is teleport, but this game is extremely skill based.
You combine teleport and slash your way, it looks even better than blade storm. The review of this game is worth watching :)

Look, we have so many maneuvers than this game, but Ash's teleport is just so dull.
Ash's teleport doesn't use its potential, far from it.

I am also in favor of a full Ash rework instead of just blade storm.

[Nazrethim]

25 minutes ago, Xaentrick said:

Looking over this topic I feel like my two cents will just be looked over in this massive topic. So here goes.

Looking over the video and all of the feedback I think the change shown is not really a good one. My main reason for thinking this is the fact that a person can just sweep over several enemies and it will be almost as if no change happened. DE says they wanted to keep the core identity Of ash the same. However I feel that while bladestorm is an iconic ability of his, it is nowhere near his core identity. Ash is supposed to be a frame that mixes lethality with stealth. As much as I hate to say it bladestorm does not do this in the slightest. There is nothing stealthy about an armed space ninja jumping from one enemy to the next. 

DE just made the same mistake many players do: they think Ash = Blade Storm. Powers should be defined by the frame not the other way around.

25 minutes ago, Xaentrick said:

When they first talked about changes to blade storm they wanted to make it more interactive and to remove the one button room clear. What they showed accomplished neither of those things. The way they described it you could clear several rooms with just holding the button down. As for interactivity, it's pretty much the same mindless activity as before. Only with less input from the player as the more targets you mark the longer you are attacking.

Yeah, they didn't fix anything, just replaced one issue (mindless 4 mash spam and go make a sandwitch) with another (annoying 4 hold spam and go make a sandwich). Oh and they also made Teleport entirely pointless.

25 minutes ago, Xaentrick said:

 Shuriken adds a nice bleed proc to enemies yet the damage itself is considered low while it auto tracks targets. A suggested change would be too remove the multishot and tracking while increasing size and damage. Turning it into a skill shot would justify a damage increase even if it is only marginal. As right now it is described as a spinning disc of pain that impales enemies to walls. I have played ash for a long time and have never seen it do so. So let's make it happen 

I have a suggestion where Shuriken is exactly that, a skillshot (though the autotracking is still in the mod Seeking Shuriken). Twist is that Melee Combo counter affects Shuriken damage in that suggestion, so you could technically murder a lot with it. Shuriken DOES impale enemies to walls... IF  you kill it with the projectile rather than the Bleed, something either impractical in low-level or near impossible at high-level.

 

 

 

[(XBOX)Englands Own]

Unfortunately for Ash players Blade Storm is a cheap/cheesy move whereby pressing 4 once watch cutscene/rinse repeat until everything died.There really wasn't any game play to be had,so changes needed to be made.i'm not sure if marking is the answer but at least Ash players can actually play the game now and it gives it more synergy with his smoke screen.For any Ash players out there who enjoy watching warframe videos,check out Life of Rio,his favourite frame is Ash,he's a top level player but shows how to play Ash without constant the Blade Storm.

[Nazrethim]

7 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

 I feel that it wouldn't unless they took way more time on it, there's a lot of Exalted Stance abilities now, and not all of them have worked out well for the players (I'm looking at you Wukong...) I think that for the short term I'd rather have a hastily adjusted manual target Blade Storm ability than a badly implemented Stance.

That's why I think they need to hold off this a few months and fix him properly, as they change they have in mind doesn't solve anything. It's true we have 3 Stance ultimates, but they are mostly the same because DE choose to make them the same. Exalted Blade: spam E to get waves(because the combos are worthless)+autoblock from the front. Hysteria: Spam E (because the combos are worthless)+Invulnerability. Primal Fury: Spam E (because the combos are worthless)+you get more range. All of them Toggle-drains.

What if say, they made Blade Storm a stance ultimate based on Duration rather than toggle-drain? What if it had 3 combos (basic E>E>E, E>E>pause>E and E>RMB+E>E).

Basic: deals damage and nothing else

Pause: Opens enemies to Finishers

RMB: features dash/lunges (similar to manics) for rapid movement in battle.

Finisher attacks creating mini-bladestorms, essentially every time you do a Finisher clones finish-off nearby enemies.

There, I just made a Stance Ultimate that it's different from the others (by making combos useful, discouraging mindless E-spam, making it Duration-based and making specific assassin-like requirement for the multikill) and kept the kill potential mostly the same without addind an annoying targeting system that only works if you break from the battle. It also features simple short combos that could be pulled from existing mechanics.

18 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

I'm not discounting the idea of fixing him properly, I just think that out of the things they could have done, this isn't actually a bad one.

Actually, otu of the things they could have done, they picked the second worst one, the worst would have been World on Bladestorm. I would prefer if they push back and do actual rework rather than delivering a lazy and pointless change.