Bladestorm rework feedback

[NativeKiller]

6 hours ago, AhmadIYE said:

Ash and the attacked enemy will have no invincibility when Bladestorm is active. - (This's something everyone is complaining and demanding for)

- Yes, no more cheap invincibility frames with cinematic killing.

Also, no more having to wait for an Ashhole to finish wailing on an Ancient Disruptor for half an eternity or even longer.

 

1) Press 4 to toggle 'Bladestorm' - (Toggle, hmm, means while active you can keep repeating the process until energy runs out)

- Yes, that's what a toggle skill is supposed to do.

 

2) Hit a heavy enemy  with augmented shuriken to remove armor completely - (That would be clearly OP and again shuriken is always bugged so it may not function as desired)

- IIRC, the augmented shuriken already completely removes the target's armor, albeit with enough Power Strength. Also, yes, the shuriken's bug is a bug that should be fixed, I don't know what you want me to say about that.

 

3) Close the distance against the enemy with 'Bladestorm' dash - Bladestorm Dash!! A new power? or we could just use the F.T? or I just didn't get your point.

- Bladestorm Dash!! <--- This felt hostile or at least condescending. As I said this version of 'Bladestorm' would make its user dash towards its target somewhat like the Archwing melee.

Also, Feel free to use F.T if you want to. I just thought that I would personally not use F.T to jump into a crowd of enemies that could kill me flat in seconds.

I thought that 'Bladestorm' dash with faster DPS and Smoke Screen combo would increase survivability much more.

 

4) Pop up 'Smoke Screen' - Why? Function?

- Why? Function? <- This felt hostile to me or at least, condescending.

Why use 'Smoke Screen'? Simple reason.

You are not invincible while you attack something in this version's 'Bladestorm' mode.

So, Smoke Screen would help you survive when you jump into a crowd of enemies..

Quote

5) Spam 'E' until the enemy is dead, then kill all lesser mooks around with E spam as well. (Again, if you meant a single enemy then it'd clearly make Ash loose his character specialty as a massacre assassin.)

 

I don't really care if you think Ash is supposed to be a massacre assasin and that this proposal seems off to you.

Even the current Ash kills enemies one by one, albeit only with a single press of a button.

This version of Bladestorm would also kill enemies one by one, albeit without cheesy invincibility cinematic kills or P4TW.

Edited October 10, 2016 by NativeKiller

[enJohneering]

I like where this rework is going, but it is still clearly incomplete if this is going to be anything but a straight LOS/manual nerf to Bladestorm. 

As watching DERebecca in the livestream, she made extensive use of SS in order to have the safety to mark up targets. I would love if that synergy was actually effective. I generally like to play at the level of difficulty shown in the stream, while currently SS is terrible unless you want to spam pizzas or trin EV and even then no good damage build on Ash mods for duration. I push a hybrid build for SS and still only have about 7 seconds of duration. The rework isn't in a bad direction, but it looks like the rest of the kit should be considered as well if you don't just want to burn this frame to the ground. There have already been some very very lengthy topics posted on the forums about possibilities for an Ash Rework (I'm looking at you @AKKILLA) So I'm going to keep this brief.

The new aimed 4 is alright even though it is more or less a straight nerf because it is now as dangerous to set up as a rifle or shotgun. I would take a nerf if it meant my favorite frame was more engaging to play, but I want something effective too. If the damage and effects are balenced properly, the new 4 could be a strong part of a versatile kit.

I would suggest giving at least some form of a rework buff to his other abilities.

1. Shuriken should get innate punch through and maybe a couple more stars or some armor/shield stripping. 

2. Smoke Screen needs a significant buff. There are 3 options I've seen and I'm sure DE could come up with something as well. 

-------A longer and wider stun

-------A debuff to targets effected by the cloud. This could include reduced accuracy, choking toxic damage, a panic effect that makes them vacate the smoked area, or something else.

-------A much longer duration moving smoke screen that makes Ash invisible to all targets outside a certain range as they can't pinpoint exactly where he is. This could take the form of an accuracy debuff to shots against Ash that falls off with the inverse of range. Think hitChance/(1+distanceFromAsh) for the calculation or something like that. A form of position based damage reduction should make it possible to que up marks effectively. This solution adds both challenge and reward to playing his stealth well and makes melee more appealing. 

3. Fatal teleport is awesome, and should just be the default for energy return on success, extra damage not required. It's a melee finisher, I don't have trouble killing 120+ with a well modded melee. Would I complain though about extra damage? Nope.

4. I've seen a lot of crazy and complicated ideas for his 4 and I can see you've already put some work into making this marking system work, so I'm going to just roll with that general form as what his new ultimate will be. 

 

Thanks and I hope that these thoughts can be considered before the release which I am sure is coming out fairly soon. 

[-MortisThorne-]

So, just now quite a few of us in a relay were discussing Ash's rework, regarding the general idea behind Bladestorm. We believe the current set up, holding down 4 to target enemies, will be quite difficult to execute effectively. It'll be a little hard to dodge and maneuver with your fingers all cramped up from trying to hold sprint, forward, and 4 all at the same time. It may be very inconvenient and depending on difficulty, dangerous. Same goes for console players, I hear frequently how console players even have troubles with abilities like Ivara and Vauban's first abilities.

The solution for Ash's 4? Toggle. 

Most of the mechanics stay the same; Still need to aim at an enemy to target it, energy used on a targetted enemy is restored if another player kills it, energy still drains per target/mark, but you should be able to toggle it. Just tap 4 to activate, you can freely parkour and dodge bullets while actively targeting enemies, and then tap 4 again to start the massacre. 

And since that seems like it'd be just a LITTLE too good, a suggestion for a downside to balance it out: there's a specific range from the casting point that you can tag enemies, so players arent just hopping different rooms and tagging mulitple enemies in different areas, possibly killing enemies in 4 different rooms xD

 

Oh and heres a slight off topic personal suggestion, maybe bump up the max targeted enemy count to 20? 18 is just so obscure to me idk x_x 

Edited October 10, 2016 by NovusNova
Removed "PSA" tag

[_Iye]

Agreed

[Reifnir]

If the new Ash thingie is going to be SS -> BS, might as well rework SS as such and make it similar to Ivara's - a toggle that lets you move (while draining energy) until any hostile action is performed. 

[Matt89Connor]

I prefer a lot of fan concept version of Ash BS instead of this version,obbligate us use Smoke, no interation with the 3 and 1

[(XBOX)Oussii]

Bottom line, it's time to think which frame should replace ASH in high end games as that poor fellow will be thrown in the trash :XD

[Shockwave-]

On 10/7/2016 at 3:49 PM, Azrael said:

"This is useless unless it's 100% certified power creep that breaks the game." Wow. Such cringe.

 

So you're complaining because BS isn't the "ability version of the tonkor" anymore? You do realize that you're basically asking for it to be "press 4 to win," right? Also, the tonkor falls off a lot sooner than you seem to think. Some of us play missions where the tonkor doesn't one-shot everything you point it at. What do you want? A room nuke with a guaranteed kill? AoE covert lethality?

I'm so sorry that you have to be aware of enemies before you kill them.

you are completely wrong. I'm saying it's useless if your gun is generally stronger than the ability. Turning the ability into marking a single target, then killing it, will mean just that - your gun is likely to be stronger than the frames ultimate.

 

I am not asking for ANYTHING. I don't see anywhere where I suggested it be press 4 to win. Please point that out, or don't put words in people's mouths. There are almost no missions where a well modded gun does't kill pretty fast 1 or 2 shots) these days. and if you actually read what I said, I actually said this would be the only place BS would be useful, so long as it one shots high level targets, perhaps even gated enemies.. But then Fatal Teleport already fills this role.

[LunarEdge7]

From my view, any and all kinds of finishers needs both the executor and the victim of the finisher to be invulnerable until after the animation and damage is applied.

The invulnerability only leaves the enemy free-moving for about 1-1.5 seconds before Ash gets to "finish" them.

I'm more surprised why people aren't complaining about how easily a Mirage with her clones could Simulor-vortex all the other players in a squad, faster than Ash.

[Shockwave-]

On 10/7/2016 at 3:59 PM, Azrael said:

You said it seemed to be 100% useless.

Yes.... that is not "freaking out". That is suggesting that the rework will take it from too good to not at all useful. It's an opinion.

On 10/7/2016 at 3:59 PM, Azrael said:

 

Some of us don't just use the tonkor all the time, you know. And even with the tonkor, shooting 3 times takes some time to do. I see no problem with spam marking 3 or 4 enemies and then BSing them, especially with high-value targets such as bursas.

I wouldn't be opposed to making it a small aoe centered around the marked target, but they are right to increase the level of interactivity. And right now we have a HUGE problem with marked targets being invincible, so worrying about people killing marked targets seems strange. My main concern is that they did not address the invulnerability issue.

Yes but almost any weapon kills faster than marking a single target, then doing the BS animations. Why would you ever use it? If you try to mark more than one target, your teammates will kill them. If you don't you are just doing Fatal teleport.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

R.I.P. Ash... time to replace it.

don't be sad, Mirage first power and synoid will follow you soon

All what we will have left in this game is Oberon :XD

Long live the new king

[LunarEdge7]

I want this change and I want it now.

[Shockwave-]

I actually don't understand why Ash BS needs a rework so badly. How is it all that different from sport saryn where you target someone, cast spore then shoot them to spread the spores to lots of other people you aren't targeting then they all die?

What really was the problem with BS was the invulnerability and the cutscene. They should have just not made the enemies invulnerable, and only sent out the clones. Lots of people have said this. Just have the clones go out and let Ash stay under the player's control. Let other players damage and kill those under attack.

Finally, it is the energy economy that is broken, but instead of fixing that, It seems like they are just breaking all the abilities. Ash's blade storm is perfect if you only can use it a few times a mission, saving it for when someone is down, or you are overwhelmed. If you didn't have all those orbs to scoop up and zenurik going so you can cast BS the moment you finish your last one, chaining them literally endlessly,  it wouldn't  be such an issue. We can't have any really powerful abilities because every ability can be used 100% of the time, so they all have to be mediocre.

[coldguy111]

what annoys me about this rework is that doesn't actually fix the issue of bladestorm being boring. With it basically being the original ability with extra steps. I mean how interactive is it looking at targets and then just watching the same animations over and over.

 

[LunarEdge7]

51 minutes ago, enJoeneering said:

A much longer duration moving smoke screen that makes Ash invisible to all targets outside a certain range as they can't pinpoint exactly where he is. This could take the form of an accuracy debuff to shots against Ash that falls off with the inverse of range. Think hitChance/(1+distanceFromAsh) for the calculation or something like that. A form of position based damage reduction should make it possible to que up marks effectively. This solution adds both challenge and reward to playing his stealth well and makes melee more appealing. 

Makes me think of making him have +x% of evasion buff and cloud staying along with him and can cover enemies as well, if that's what this is. Cuz I'd love that. Make him have decreased detection range from enemies as well like equipping the Rakta Dark Dagger.

[Matt89Connor]

As they created the agument for the third Ash skills I thought, "ok ... you want us to stop only use the BS? Okay you're right."
But now, they force us to stop fighting for "marking" the enemies? No .... in my opinion is not the solution, because even once a BS will have the same problems, and people will always be with they fingers on the button 4.
I think it would be better to involve the teleport perhaps to perform the particular finisher Ash, instead of press 4 to win.

[enJohneering]

14 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Makes me think of making him have +x% of evasion buff and cloud staying along with him and can cover enemies as well, if that's what this is. Cuz I'd love that. Make him have decreased detection range from enemies as well like equipping the Rakta Dark Dagger.

Exactly, and the evasion buff would increase with range to the target. 

Now, I like the idea of the Rakta Dagger effect, but I and every youtuber and friend I have has failed to find any consistent change while using it. I like stealth play, but the tiles are too cramped and the enemy AI targeting too erratic to make this kind of buff in any way useful. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

On 8.10.2016 at 10:45 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

What I don't like is that it does nothing to address the more glaring issues with the move:

1. It's a cutscene.
2. It takes away Ash's ability to do anything else for the duration of the animation.
3. "Full" invulnerability.

While I welcome appropriately applied nerfs, this is a nerf that doesn't actually fix anything and doesn't add anything new to the ability. I mean... mechanically, what is different? Blade Storm will still be used the exact same way, it suffers from the exact same drawbacks and frustrations, and the issue of animation duration may actually get worse if target cap is determined by energy available.

exactly.

tbqh i'm a bit surprised at this unimaginative solution after all that time they were dwelling on it... it's a nerf alright and well deserved but yeah... i can't see any reason why people wouldn't flock to mesa as the new DPS powerhouse now. while ash will be busy marking enemies she'll have cleared the room already. dunno.

[enJohneering]

11 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

I actually don't understand why Ash BS needs a rework so badly. How is it all that different from sport saryn where you target someone, cast spore then shoot them to spread the spores to lots of other people you aren't targeting then they all die?

What really was the problem with BS was the invulnerability and the cutscene. They should have just not made the enemies invulnerable, and only sent out the clones. Lots of people have said this. Just have the clones go out and let Ash stay under the player's control. Let other players damage and kill those under attack.

Finally, it is the energy economy that is broken, but instead of fixing that, It seems like they are just breaking all the abilities. Ash's blade storm is perfect if you only can use it a few times a mission, saving it for when someone is down, or you are overwhelmed. If you didn't have all those orbs to scoop up and zenurik going so you can cast BS the moment you finish your last one, chaining them literally endlessly,  it wouldn't  be such an issue. We can't have any really powerful abilities because every ability can be used 100% of the time, so they all have to be mediocre.

While I like this, making you sit in the cutscene actually held back the ability from becoming the old sayrn ult which was a press 4 win button AND you got to keep running around and shooting. It took no setup, killed everything with a button, and didn't have the downside of being trapped in the cutscene. 

This new form is ok, but the other abilities will have to improve to make the setup for this move possible. Namely Smoke Screen. I've talked about it a bit in my other thread, I'll put it in a spoiler below. 

Spoiler

I like where this rework is going, but it is still clearly incomplete if this is going to be anything but a straight LOS/manual nerf to Bladestorm. 

As watching DERebecca in the livestream, she made extensive use of SS in order to have the safety to mark up targets. I would love if that synergy was actually effective. I generally like to play at the level of difficulty shown in the stream, while currently SS is terrible unless you want to spam pizzas or trin EV and even then no good damage build on Ash mods for duration. I push a hybrid build for SS and still only have about 7 seconds of duration. The rework isn't in a bad direction, but it looks like the rest of the kit should be considered as well if you don't just want to burn this frame to the ground. There have already been some very very lengthy topics posted on the forums about possibilities for an Ash Rework (I'm looking at you @AKKILLA) So I'm going to keep this brief.

The new aimed 4 is alright even though it is more or less a straight nerf because it is now as dangerous to set up as a rifle or shotgun. I would take a nerf if it meant my favorite frame was more engaging to play, but I want something effective too. If the damage and effects are balenced properly, the new 4 could be a strong part of a versatile kit.

I would suggest giving at least some form of a rework buff to his other abilities.

1. Shuriken should get innate punch through and maybe a couple more stars or some armor/shield stripping. 

2. Smoke Screen needs a significant buff. There are 3 options I've seen and I'm sure DE could come up with something as well. 

-------A longer and wider stun

-------A debuff to targets effected by the cloud. This could include reduced accuracy, choking toxic damage, a panic effect that makes them vacate the smoked area, or something else.

-------(my idea)A much longer duration moving smoke screen that makes Ash invisible to all targets outside a certain range as they can't pinpoint exactly where he is. This could take the form of an accuracy debuff to shots against Ash that falls off with the inverse of range. Think hitChance/(1+distanceFromAsh) for the calculation or something like that. A form of position based damage reduction should make it possible to que up marks effectively. This solution adds both challenge and reward to playing his stealth well and makes melee more appealing. 

3. Fatal teleport is awesome, and should just be the default for energy return on success, extra damage not required. It's a melee finisher, I don't have trouble killing 120+ with a well modded melee. Would I complain though about extra damage? Nope.

4. I've seen a lot of crazy and complicated ideas for his 4 and I can see you've already put some work into making this marking system work, so I'm going to just roll with that general form as what his new ultimate will be. 

 

Thanks and I hope that these thoughts can be considered before the release which I am sure is coming out fairly soon. 

 

[(PSN)xXBearPawz]

I like rework 

Edited October 10, 2016 by (PS4)xXBearPawz

[_Iye]

1 hour ago, LunarEdge7 said:

From my view, any and all kinds of finishers needs both the executor and the victim of the finisher to be invulnerable until after the animation and damage is applied.

The invulnerability only leaves the enemy free-moving for about 1-1.5 seconds before Ash gets to "finish" them.

I'm more surprised why people aren't complaining about how easily a Mirage with her clones could Simulor-vortex all the other players in a squad, faster than Ash.

Thats logic but the same thing is causing some serious problem in the co-op game strategy, tbh I wasnt and am not on the side of reworking Ash and thought Ash will be lost for ever but thanks that severe damage hasn't been done yet. Simulor and Mirage is simply a broken mehcanic regardless of people say idk whatever, I even sometimes request some people if they could leave some enemies for us and do the work for them. from my point view, the rework has been done just based on some pointless outrage of part of the community just because Ash is too good at killing but they are not despite having 2 major critical issue (enemy invinc.+rad proc.).

Edited October 10, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Very nice proposal. I saw the Dev stream and witnessed the BS rework but I don't quite get it still. 

Edited October 10, 2016 by (XB1)OTF SERENiTY

[Dumcomester]

If I have to put my reticle on an enemie they should probably already be dead... Rip bladestorm

[aerosoul1337]

1 hour ago, Matt89Connor said:

I prefer a lot of fan concept version of Ash BS instead of this version,obbligate us use Smoke, no interation with the 3 and 1

Many of the players' ideas are far more creative and synergy better with other abilities.
Honestly, the official rework prototype is by far the worst one I could imagine.
I thought the worst case is making it a stance, but I was so wrong.

The official version doesn't solves any problem but creates new ones.
To be honest, I don't insist that his ult has to be Bladestorm anymore, just give him a new ult.

[Matt89Connor]

30 minutes ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Many of the players' ideas are far more creative and synergy better with other abilities.
Honestly, the official rework prototype is by far the worst one I could imagine.
I thought the worst case is making it a stance, but I was so wrong.

The official version doesn't solves any problem but creates new ones.
To be honest, I don't insist that his ult has to be Bladestorm anymore, just give him a new ult.

i agree