Bladestorm rework feedback

[Nazzami]

1 minute ago, JadesMenades said:

There are other frames that have press 4 to win abilities like Excalibur and valkyr and honestly I don't think the problem is ash's bladestorm, I think the problem is that his other abilities don't synergise with his bladestorm. If DE want to make it interactive then add synergy 

Excals 4 has falloff damage at range and valk has a HP hit when her 4 turns off

[JadesMenades]

Ok so here is my idea instead of the rework DE has stated.

So what happens is your 3 clones go around bladestorming a certain amount of targets each ( maybe 3-5 or something). While this happens you have increased melee and movement  speed and melee damage. I don't know if this would be a duration ability or just a single energy drain ability. Your teleport costs lower amounts of energy and your shuriken does more damage.

[Azrael]

This seems a bit too complex, mayhap. Complexity means that it will be slower to use, and we want a fast-paced ability. To be fair, it's kind of hard for me to follow this, because I'm super tired and not all there right now. I, too, like the idea of shuriken having a slightly different use during BS, and making it teleport you is a fair idea.

But +1 for not claiming that ash is going to be useless with the proposed rework. I'm so tired of reading that overly dramatic nonsense.

[JadesMenades]

6 minutes ago, Nazzami said:

Excals 4 has falloff damage at range and valk has a HP hit when her 4 turns off

 

7 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Ash's BS is a huge problem. Between making enemies invulnerable, killing enemies in spawn rooms without the player knowing they are there, messing up spawns by teleporting around the entire map, and killing all teammates every time he gets rad procced, I think it's fair to say that BS needs to be changed. The fact that you can afk while killing is only one of the problems with BS.

 

*Edit: Oh, and if you think that valkyr's ability is press 4 to win the same way BS is, then you've never used either ability. BS is the only ability of its type in the game. Not even frosts 4 comes close for being annoying, anti-teamwork, overpowered bs (pun intended).

Ok I understand that ash can be a huge pain in the &#! for other players but I don't think limiting his killing down to a few targets is right. And yes I know how Valkyrs 4 works. But with her ability you can kill tons of enemies but with this rework you would be barely killing anything due to the time it takes to mark each individual target. 

 

[EmptyDevil]

Oh great, another thread made by someone that didn't watch the devstream, so they are completely ignorant to how the marking actually works. Go watch the devstream to see how it actually functions.

[RoniLumen]

22 minutes ago, Arandabido said:

is it possible to have Slow motion with a multiplayer session? How do you make timeflow go slow for one player and normal for all the others?

Thanks for the question.
Only the Bladestorm finisher's animation would be slow motion.
I thought of it, because the current finisher animation cut is superfast, around 0.3-0.6 second.
The slow animation is to fill up the targeting time, so it won't be just Ash killed one enemy then stands there for a few seconds.
This would represent that Ash's senses are super fast in Bladestorm: he has time to look for the next target while finishing off the current target or targets.

 

[JadesMenades]

Just now, EmptyDevil said:

Oh great, another thread made by someone that didn't watch the devstream, so they are completely ignorant to how the marking actually works. Go watch the devstream to see how it actually functions.

I'm sorry that I'm a busy person who only had time to read DE's Devstream overview that they posted.

[[DE]Momaw]

12 minutes ago, JadesMenades said:

There are other frames that have press 4 to win abilities

I'm sure their reworks will come in time.  Just because bad things exist, doesn't mean we should stop fixing the bad things.

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, JadesMenades said:

But with her ability you can kill tons of enemies but with this rework you would be barely killing anything due to the time it takes to mark each individual target.

Uh, valk has to individually melee enemies in her 4. She can't just insta-kill entire rooms. Furthermore, with valk you have to go up to them, but with the BS prototype you can kill enemies from very far away. If you can kill a lot of enemies with valk, then you can do so with the ash prototype. Claiming that meleeing them with valk's claws is somehow more efficient than marking them from across the room is pretty silly.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, JadesMenades said:

I'm sorry that I'm a busy person who only had time to read DE's Devstream overview that they posted.

If you didn't watch it, then that's okay. Not everyone has time! But please don't act like you know how it works, and make threads claiming that ash is going to be useless, if you didn't even watch the stream. Did you forget this is YOUR thread, which YOU started, in which you claimed that ash is going to be useless?

[JadesMenades]

1 minute ago, Momaw said:

I'm sure their reworks will come in time.  Just because bad things exist, doesn't mean we should stop fixing the bad things.

I agree but if you look at Valkyr ( whose 4 does not allow u to be AFK, but it's still a press 4) she can annihilate enemies easy and yes I know she receives damage at the end. 

[ReeceNightshade]

So I know everybody is talking about how to fix bladestorm without completely killing it. How about a whole kit rework?

His one would stay his shuriken. I think its a useful skill and would fit his character.

His two would be a modified smoke screen. It makes everyone invisible, but only inside of the smoke screen, as well as creates a smoke screen that reduces enemy vision range and increases the damage that they take from allies.

His 3 would be a feint of death. He activates it and the next time he gets hit the warframe seems to crumple to the ground while ash gets a slight speed boost and temporary invisibility so he can either run away or move to kill whom ever hit him. It would be like a substitution jutsu. (there would be a cooldown after activation)

His 4th skill would literally be lethal teleport. Its such a great skill and its *like* the reworked bladestorm but for one instead of a group.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how we could possibly use this kit and maybe even make it better :D

Edited October 7, 2016 by RinaNightshade

[Azrael]

Just now, JadesMenades said:

I agree but if you look at Valkyr ( whose 4 does not allow u to be AFK, but it's still a press 4) she can annihilate enemies easy and yes I know she receives damage at the end. 

the fact that you have to press 4 does not make it "press 4 to win." Valk has to individually target enemies and melee them using her built-in weapon.

[JadesMenades]

2 minutes ago, Azrael said:

If you didn't watch it, then that's okay. Not everyone has time! But please don't act like you know how it works, and make threads claiming that ash is going to be useless, if you didn't even watch the stream. Did you forget this is YOUR thread, which YOU started, in which you claimed that ash is going to be useless?

I apologise for my ingnorance ( not sarcastic.) ( I'm serious)

[JadesMenades]

3 minutes ago, Azrael said:

the fact that you have to press 4 does not make it "press 4 to win." Valk has to individually target enemies and melee them using her built-in weapon.

 

 

[Racter]

In basically every way, this is worse than what I imagined. I had no reservations about this going in, I knew as soon as they mentioned it on stream way-back-when it would be a nerf, but this is far beyond what I expected. Mechanically, holding down 4 while trying to aim/move is not enjoyable. You don't have to wait to try this, go do it on any frame right now, it flat out sucks. On top of that, if you want to hit anything approaching a reasonable amount of enemies with the ability, it will take additional time to mark them. In this time, for the vast majority of the enemies you fight in this game, regular weapons could have easily killed them. For the enemies beyond that point, the ones that don't die to a sneeze (and won't die instantly to Bladestorm either, for that matter) you can kill them very nearly as quickly with any dagger+teleport. In what situation would this iteration of Bladestorm ever be worth pressing? Why would I waste energy marking enemies that I could have killed for free with guns, or killed cheaper and nearly as quickly with a dagger+teleport? On top of that, this is still not very engaging, and the most complained about part of Bladestorm (enemy immunity) will still be there, just delayed. So what does this accomplish, really?

Previously, reworks were a thing to be excited about. Frost, Excal, and Rhino all came out noticeably better than their previous versions. Then the Saryn rework happened, and while she is definitely still playable, Miasma is no longer worth casting (from a damage perspective) ever. This "rework" has the same feel, and looks to be facing the same problems as Saryn's initial version had. Bladestorm (Spores) kills far too slowly, so you end up wasting time marking enemies (throwing out Spores), only for all of them to die before you get anything actually done (spreading the Spores). Spore was fixed by allowing spores to spread from a dead target at half range, there is no equivalent mechanic for the new Bladestorm. Saryn got reworked and it completely changed her playstyle in a way that allowed her to maintain effectiveness, even if not exactly as intended. Cratered then-good skill, buffed two others, left one basically alone. Mag got "reworked", and basically got removed from the game. Cratered then-good skill, buffed one other, left two basically alone. Valkyr got "reworked", cratered her best skill, left the other three alone. Trinity had a similar fate, but Blessing at least maintains some effectiveness. You can see the trend here. Frames who had their niche changed (Excal, generalist > swordsman; Saryn, nuker > dot) or left alone with reduced effectiveness (Trinity), remained playable at worst and improved at best. Frames who had their niche deleted (Mag, shield nuker > nothing; Valkyr, invincible berserker > tankier frame to use Naramon with) are so poorly represented they might as well have been deleted. Ash's current niche is Bladestorm. It's not the best nuke, it's not the fastest killer, but it does armor ignoring damage fairly quickly in a fairly sizeable radius. With this reworked version, he will have no niche, and will fall to the wayside like Mag did.

I don't necessarily agree with DE's war on PX2W, but I could (initially, at least) understand where it was coming from, and the initial several frames were changed in ways that, at a minimum, made them more interesting to play. Mag and Valkyr were complete disasters, and Ash is looking to go down their road. You can argue that we haven't tried it yet, sure, but do we really need to? The same argument was made for Saryn, and Mag, and the entire Vacuum debacle, among other things. If you play the game, you should be able to visualize how this will work once live, and it will be an absolute dumpster fire. Furthermore, unlike some previous game changing reworks (Saryn, arguably Mag), there is nothing else coming for him. He still has the worst version of stealth (shortest duration, cannot be cast in the air, cannot be recast while active), he still has the weakest finisher setup of any frame that can do so (single target, shortest duration, can be blocked by enemy animations), Shuriken (and this is only with the augment at that) is objectively worse than most (all?) other armor strippers. Why would you play Ash after this goes live? Inferior to the other stealth frames, inferior to the other finisher-proc frames, inferior to the other damage frames.

If you just wanted to nerf Bladestorm, nerf it's range, or it's damage, or it's target cap, or add LoS requirements to additional enemies beyond the first. If you wanted to rework it, change it completely. Something similar to Flicker Strike ( https://youtu.be/MR49kNl4jZU?t=20s ) could have reused the animations, been more fun and engaging to use and still reduced the effectiveness as intended. Toggle drain, one at a time requiring manual targeting, combo multiplier like Landslide (or even just the melee multiplier), or centralized around Ash (as opposed to current, targeted enemy). This version has the exact same issue as the Valkyr "rework", you're taking an ability that needs to be overhauled mechanically and slapping the easiest direct nerf on it you can.

I'm not necessarily against Bladestorm nerfs. I'm certainly not an Ash fan boy. But I also don't want to see another frame thrown into the trash. You can do better than this.

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by Racter

[KuramaKitsune]

Why cant bladestorm work exactly the same way.

But instead of ninja auto cutscene mode where you have to watch teammates bleed to death because your stuck in a long animation for 20 seconds.

 

You just spawn your clones like normally

And YOUR ash continues on like usual...

You still can stand there shoot kill ect

Cap the base whatever.

The clones are doing their teleporting blitzkrieg you continue doing your thing.

Edited October 7, 2016 by KuramaKitsune

[Racter]

55 minutes ago, Azrael said:

 

Oh, C'mon, man. Is this drama really necessary? "I have to mark targets before I kill them now, ash is total garbage and I'm never using him again." You saw 5 minutes of Rebecca using a prototype. Calm down. They haven't even released the official details yet, and for all we know they're still polishing it. Whenever reworks come we always have to adjust how we play a little, there's no way you can know that ash will be useless or irrelevant.

Making suggestions or raising concerns is fine, and probably needed. I have some of my own. But when you use this sort of dramatic hyperbole it's hard to take you seriously.

Are you joking? Go re-watch the stream. https://youtu.be/bRDpSzINdYY?t=37m Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and try and tell me that this wont be absolutely useless? There's no adjusting for an ability that is mechanically not worth using. There's nothing else coming for him, they are literally just cratering Bladestorm and calling it a rework.

I am not at all against reworking Bladestorm, I'm not even necessarily against nerfing it if it becomes more fun to use or he is compensated in other areas. This is not that.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Racter

[KuramaKitsune]

Why cant bladestorm work exactly the same way.

But instead of ninja auto cutscene mode where you have to watch teammates bleed to death because your stuck in a long animation for 20 seconds.

 

You just spawn your clones like normally

And YOUR ash continues on like usual...

You still can stand there shoot kill ect

Cap the base whatever.

The clones are doing their teleporting blitzkrieg you continue doing your thing.

[KuramaKitsune]

Why cant bladestorm work exactly the same way.

But instead of ninja auto cutscene mode where you have to watch teammates bleed to death because your stuck in a long animation for 20 seconds.

 

You just spawn your clones like normally

And YOUR ash continues on like usual...

You still can stand there shoot kill ect

Cap the base whatever.

The clones are doing their teleporting blitzkrieg you continue doing your thing.

[GrimAtrament]

[Sovyul]

This nerftrain started when snowflakes were pissed at others for having fun

Well there you have it, the Bladestorm "rework"

[Chipputer]

You get to aim at specific enemies, choosing your targets yourself, and you'll do more damage as they're going to buff it to make up for the difference in how you use it.

Almost every issue it had, in the past, is gone, save that it's not interactive, but there's really no way to do that that won't end with people whining that it copies some other move's mechanics.

 

Also, holding down a key and moving around/aiming is stupid amounts of simple. To add to that, they even have the function that lets you press a button to use the last used power or the power you've selected. Bind it to a more comfortable key and make sure you have Bladestorm selected. Problem solved.

[chofranc]

With the rework at least ash will be less dangerous for the team in missions with radiation procs. 

And we didn't test it yet so you wasted your time with your wall of text.

Edited October 7, 2016 by chofranc

[Racter]

3 minutes ago, Neo_182 said:

We haven't had a chance to try it yet how can you know if you'll like it or not?

The same way I knew 6m Vacuum was terrible, I watched it being used and applied that to game experience.

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You get to aim at specific enemies, choosing your targets yourself, and you'll do more damage as they're going to buff it to make up for the difference in how you use it.

Almost every issue it had, in the past, is gone, save that it's not interactive, but there's really no way to do that that won't end with people whining that it copies some other move's mechanics.

 

Also, holding down a key and moving around/aiming is stupid amounts of simple. To add to that, they even have the function that lets you press a button to use the last used power or the power you've selected. Bind it to a more comfortable key and make sure you have Bladestorm selected. Problem solved.

It's damage is not relevant if it is mechanically broken, and that is the issue here. Being forced to rebind a key as a band aid fix to a broken mechanic is not a solution, fixing the broken mechanic is. Even ignoring that, does that sound fun to you, at all? Hold this button down and spin your mouse to mark targets so you can hit them with this ability. You are literally already doing what is needed to just kill them with a regular weapon, why would you do this instead?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Racter