DE, here is a possible solution to fix Telos Boltace.

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

5 minutes ago, Twilight053 said:

Every room wipes needs to be nerfed, I don't care if you find it fun or not, it takes the gameplay away from others.

so no one else is having fun because one guy uses a weapon that is fun to use

maybe lets instead complain that the rest of the weapons are boring? thats the solution really? nerf one of the few fun to play meele weapons cuz its taking fun from the others

>logic

[Twilight053]

21 minutes ago, Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern said:

so no one else is having fun because one guy uses a weapon that is fun to use

maybe lets instead complain that the rest of the weapons are boring? thats the solution really? nerf one of the few fun to play meele weapons cuz its taking fun from the others

>logic

It's a fun you had at the expense of other's. Why don't you solo for others instead? You still have your fun, and everyone's gameplay is unscathed.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Twilight053

[Tsukinoki]

14 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Easier solution is to just make the wave not be affected by range mods. Leave it as a smaller, PBAoE. It still retains its identity but it no longer becomes as ridiculous as it is now.

12 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

(Maybe their base range? Or the fact that they stack with Reach? Stuff like that.)

So basically you two want to turn it into a strictly worse Atterax or Orthos Prime?  As in make an MR8 weapon strictly worse than an MR2 or MR3 weapon...

Simple facts here:
-Base spin attack radius of the Telos wave is 9 meters, with what you're proposing this could never change.
-Spin attack radius of the Orthos Prime and Atterax with Primed Reach is just over 9 meters.
-Telos Boltace spin wave is blocked by everything.  This includes Enemies, Containers, Dead Bodies, Knee High Barriers.  Everything.
-The spin attack of other weapons isn't blocked by anything.
-Telos Boltace spin wave doesn't get bonus damage from the combo multipliers
-The spin attack of other weapons does get bonus damage from the combo multipliers.
-Telos Boltace spin wave damage decreases the further you get from the player.
-The spin attack of other weapons is the same even if you are at the very outer edges of the spin attack radius.

So if you just limit the Telos Wave to 9 meters you are essentially removing its only defining feature while at the same time making it strictly worse at spin attacks (you know its only upside) than any other melee weapon since its spin attacks are blocked by literally everything unlike every other melee weapon in existence.
Further its damage will fall off really quickly comparatively since combo multipliers do literally nothing for the Telos Boltace spin attacks unlike every other weapon....
Note here: Not even Weeping Wounds or Blood Rush take effect on the spin wave.  Even if you've built up a massive combo with normal strikes and do a spin wave you'll find that it doesn't get the benefits.

EDIT: Even its vaunted guaranteed slash procs doesn't save the weapon.
The slash procs deal 29 base damage per tick and stack with base damage mods only, so only spoiled strike or pressure point.  Even the slash IPS mods don't increase this damage (and I've tested that in the simulacrum)
Even with Primed Pressure point and Spoiled Strike the slash proc only deals 105.85 damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds which only adds 740.95 damage over six seconds.  And mind you this damage is also affected by the fall-off so if the enemies aren't literally touching you they are going to be getting considerably less bleed damage than those numbers state.
Simple fact is that even the gauranteed slash procs of this weapon simply aren't that good and don't deal that much damage.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[LunarEdge7]

6 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

So if you just limit the Telos Wave to 9 meters you are essentially removing its only defining feature while at the same time making it strictly worse at spin attacks (you know its only upside) than any other melee weapon since its spin attacks are blocked by literally everything unlike every other melee weapon in existence.

Really good point that you made there. Maybe just making its range not adjustable by range mods is enough? 

[Tsukinoki]

23 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Really good point that you made there. Maybe just making its range not adjustable by range mods is enough? 

That causes the exact problem my post was talking about.
If you just limit the T.Boltace spin wave to not be affected by range mods it becomes strictly worse than any other melee weapon due to its spin wave having LoS requirements and not being affected by the combo multiplier.

Its one defining feature becomes a weakness.
Instead of going "This sends out a wave on spin attacks to hit distant foes." it becomes "This weapon has a weaker spin attack than every other weapon in the game due to LoS mechanics and not benefiting from combo multipliers and having incredibly harsh damage fall-off!"
So its defining feature now becomes that it sucks horribly at spin attacks.
And you really want a weapon that its entire defining feature to be that its worse than other weapons at MR8?

Even if they lift the restrictions on the wave being limited by LoS and not getting bonus damage from combo multipliers basically that turns it into another Orthos Prime/Atterax with no real defining characteristics...

EDIT: Even its vaunted guaranteed slash procs doesn't save the weapon.
The slash procs deal 29 base damage per tick and stack with base damage mods only, so only spoiled strike or pressure point.  Even the slash IPS mods don't increase this damage (and I've tested that in the simulacrum)
Even with Primed Pressure point and Spoiled Strike the slash proc only deals 105.85 damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds which only adds 740.95 damage over six seconds.  And mind you this damage is also affected by the fall-off so if the enemies aren't literally touching you they are going to be getting considerably less bleed damage than those numbers state.
Simple fact is that even the gauranteed slash procs of this weapon simply aren't that good and don't deal that much damage.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[blackheartstar_pc]

5 hours ago, Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern said:

oh hell no... I'm in love with telos boltace and now people want to nerf it?

Anything considered good draws their wrath. People need to stop making videos and posts about this stuff to stop drawing the attention of the nerf army. Pretty much if somebody enjoys it they want to ruin(nerf) it.

Edited October 19, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[shut]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

So basically you two want to turn it into a strictly worse Atterax or Orthos Prime?  As in make an MR8 weapon strictly worse than an MR2 or MR3 weapon...

Simple facts here:
-Base spin attack radius of the Telos wave is 9 meters, with what you're proposing this could never change.
-Spin attack radius of the Orthos Prime and Atterax with Primed Reach is just over 9 meters.
-Telos Boltace spin wave is blocked by everything.  This includes Enemies, Containers, Dead Bodies, Knee High Barriers.  Everything.
-The spin attack of other weapons isn't blocked by anything.
-Telos Boltace spin wave doesn't get bonus damage from the combo multipliers
-The spin attack of other weapons does get bonus damage from the combo multipliers.
-Telos Boltace spin wave damage decreases the further you get from the player.
-The spin attack of other weapons is the same even if you are at the very outer edges of the spin attack radius.

So if you just limit the Telos Wave to 9 meters you are essentially removing its only defining feature while at the same time making it strictly worse at spin attacks (you know its only upside) than any other melee weapon since its spin attacks are blocked by literally everything unlike every other melee weapon in existence.
Further its damage will fall off really quickly comparatively since combo multipliers do literally nothing for the Telos Boltace spin attacks unlike every other weapon....
Note here: Not even Weeping Wounds or Blood Rush take effect on the spin wave.  Even if you've built up a massive combo with normal strikes and do a spin wave you'll find that it doesn't get the benefits.

EDIT: Even its vaunted guaranteed slash procs doesn't save the weapon.
The slash procs deal 29 base damage per tick and stack with base damage mods only, so only spoiled strike or pressure point.  Even the slash IPS mods don't increase this damage (and I've tested that in the simulacrum)
Even with Primed Pressure point and Spoiled Strike the slash proc only deals 105.85 damage per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds which only adds 740.95 damage over six seconds.  And mind you this damage is also affected by the fall-off so if the enemies aren't literally touching you they are going to be getting considerably less bleed damage than those numbers state.
Simple fact is that even the gauranteed slash procs of this weapon simply aren't that good and don't deal that much damage.

Just need to mention-- You say that decreasing the TBoltace wave's range will make it strictly worse than the OrthosP/Atterax, but virtually every melee weapon is strictly worse than the OrthosP and Atterax. Those two are only as powerful as they are because of a bugged interaction with Maiming Strike + Blood Rush.
The devs actually fixed this bug once, but it broke again soon after and they haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. (That's what I remember, anyways. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

That aside, though, I agree with pretty much everything in your post. The TBoltace has quite a number of downsides, which balance it out during high-level play compared to other high-tier melee weapons.

But the problem is that while it may be balanced in high tier, it's completely broken in low-leveled maps at the moment (i.e. literally every mission that isn't a Sortie). We all know that the waves barely tickle tanky enemies, but these "barely-tickling" waves will easily instagib everything else-- over a 25m sphere, with spammability.  It's practically a LoS-requiring Synoid Simulor that partially ignores armor and has over double the radius. 

Clearly, something needs to change. Maybe not just "nerf the range and call it a day" for the reasons you mentioned, but something should be done about the weapon so it can remain viable at high-levels without trivializing low-levels.

Edited October 19, 2016 by SortaRandom

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

6 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Clearly, something needs to change. Maybe not just "nerf the range and call it a day" for the reasons you mentioned, but something should be done about the weapon so it can remain viable at high-levels without trivializing low-levels.

go and take any other weapon we have in the game atm and let me know when you find one that is so well done it doesnt one shot enemies on low levels but still does great on high level missions

 

protip: you can't

its a problem with warframe, not the weapons themselfs. We need level scalling or just other ways for high level players to gather resources / run bosses without going and one shotting vay hek cuz hes level 10

[shut]

1 minute ago, Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern said:

go and take any other weapon we have in the game atm and let me know when you find one that is so well done it doesnt one shot enemies on low levels but still does great on high level missions

 

protip: you can't

Obviously other weapons can oneshot weak enemies as well. But try finding another weapon that can oneshot entire low-leveled maps nearly twice a second.

THAT is what's setting the TBoltace apart from other weapons right now. 

[Tsukinoki]

15 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Just need to mention-- You say that decreasing the TBoltace wave's range will make it strictly worse than the OrthosP/Atterax, but virtually every melee weapon is strictly worse than the OrthosP and Atterax. Those two are only as powerful as they are because of a bugged interaction with Maiming Strike + Blood Rush.
The devs actually fixed this bug once, but it broke again soon after and they haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. (That's what I remember, anyways. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

That aside, though, I agree with pretty much everything in your post. The TBoltace has quite a number of downsides, which balance it out during high-level play compared to other high-tier melee weapons.

But the problem is that while it may be balanced in high tier, it's completely broken in low-leveled maps at the moment (i.e. literally every mission that isn't a Sortie). We all know that the waves barely tickle tanky enemies, but these "barely-tickling" waves will easily instagib everything else-- over a 25m sphere, with spammability.  It's practically a LoS-requiring Synoid Simulor that partially ignores armor and has over double the radius. 

Clearly, something needs to change. Maybe not just "nerf the range and call it a day" for the reasons you mentioned, but something should be done about the weapon so it can remain viable at high-levels without trivializing low-levels.

Honestly the only "nerf"/"fix" that I see the weapon needing is to fix how channeling works on it.
I honestly think that would fix a lot of issues.

If they either:
A) Make channeling effects not apply at all to the spin waves
or B) Make hits on enemies with a channeled spin wave actually take energy to benefit.
EDIT: Just a side note here this channeling issue also affects every weapons slam attack.  If it has a large enough range that you can slam attack enemies without directly hitting them you'll see that channeling effects happen but it doesn't cost energy unless you directly hit them with the weapon itself.  I honestly think this is a bug that really needs to be fixed.

That is honestly the biggest problem with the T.Boltace, and its most likely a bug.
After all, if you remove the channeling bonus damage and prevent it from activating life drain, or make it cost energy as it should, that would solve the biggest problems with it.

As to your end point that:

15 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

something should be done about the weapon so it can remain viable at high-levels without trivializing low-levels.

That is simply something that needs to be fixed with scaling and warframe in general.

Try finding a melee weapon that doesn't trivialize low-level missions and yet is decent at high levels.

Its not something that can just be "fixed" on a single weapon.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

what@Tsukinoki said should be the answer to everyone that posts stuff like this on forums just because someone else is doing good with a freshly added weapon

its funny that people completely forgot that we have tonkor, synoid simulor and many others just because everyone is using them and no one has an issue when seeing someone else doing well with them

 

but when DE adds a new weapon that is really good and fun to play - sure lets ruin it completely so its just as plain and boring as other weapons are.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern
mispel

[shut]

Just now, Tsukinoki said:

Honestly the only "nerf"/"fix" that I see the weapon needing is to fix how channeling works on it.
I honestly think that would fix a lot of issues.

If they either:
A) Make channeling effects not apply at all to the spin waves
or B) Make hits on enemies with a channeled spin wave actually take energy to benefit.

That is honestly the biggest problem with the T.Boltace, and its most likely a bug.
After all, if you remove the channeling bonus damage and prevent it from activating life drain, or make it cost energy as it should, that would solve the biggest problems with it.

Coming from someone who uses the TBoltace a lot and regularly trivializes low-leveled maps with it, I think that the channeling bug is just one of the (more prevalent) issues rather than being the only issue. It can practically delete the entire starchart regardless of whether you're giving yourself infinite HP with it.

3 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

As to your end point that:

That is simply something that needs to be fixed with scaling and warframe in general.

Try finding a melee weapon that doesn't trivialize low-level missions and yet is decent at high levels.

Its not something that can just be "fixed" on a single weapon.

Like I said to to Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern a couple minutes ago, of course every weapon can instagib low-leveled enemies. But the thing setting the TBoltace apart from other weapons (e.g. the Machete, which can easily oneshot most Starchart enemies when built right) is the fact that it can apply its damage over nearly the entire map at once.

The only other weapon I can think of with this same capability is the Ignis, but you don't see this one being used much since its damage doesn't scale well with levels at all.

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

@SortaRandom should we nerf the blast radius on tonkor then? cuz it can obliterate entire room and probably few corridors leading to it if you have multishot / mirage on low level missions?

your issue with telos boltace is pointless man

 

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Coming from someone who uses the TBoltace a lot and regularly trivializes low-leveled maps with it, I think that the channeling bug is just one of the (more prevalent) issues rather than being the only issue. It can practically delete the entire starchart regardless of whether you're giving yourself infinite HP with it.

Its not just the infinite HP.
I mean having a free 50%-110% bonus damage to everything you hit is one of the few reasons it does so well at higher levels and removing that, or making it cost, would hit the weapon decently hard in terms of power.  It would essentially be the same thing as reducing the damage of the weapon 1/3rd to 1/2....

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

is the fact that it can apply its damage over nearly the entire map at once.

In ideal situations, sure.
In real situations?  Almost never.

I mean even if you do only mid-air slide attacks you will still have the wave blocked by seemingly nothing and not hit enemies right next to you, or only hit the enemies directly next to you and the ones with even half of their foot behind other enemy models are not hurt at all.
And this is especially prominent on Infested maps.

The only time you can "apply its damage over nearly the entire map at once" is in ideal situations.
Not in most actual situations where Bodies (both livign and dead), crates, knee-high barriers, small pipes on the walls/cieling, bumps on the ground, and sometimes nothing at all blocks the damage from applying to random enemies meaning that it can take 3 or 4 spin attacks to clear a smallish rooms even at low levels simply because of how inconsistent it is.

Maybe if the weapon didn't have such super strict LoS requirements on applying its damage I might feel different..but as it stands it is a very unreliable weapon for killing large groups.
EDIT: Add to that how many enemies it can send into the slash proc dieing animation, which takes a few seconds to complete and while that is happening its body is blocking all of the slide attack waves and even if you do this perfectly on a group of enemies its not too uncommon for a good chunk of them to live...and its another reason that the bug of free channeling attacks makes this weapon so powerful, after all disintegrated bodies don't block the spin wave like ones going through slow dieing animations.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[DEADSHOT456]

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This detail in particular (weapon must be equipped to receive the spin attack benefit) is something you can expect to test out / play with the next deployment. Further review will follow!

Mandatory to equip melee for the benefit is absolutely fine, but I am against @EmptyDevil's idea of shooting projectiles. We all remember the old Radial Javelin and how bad it was, right? Moreover, Telos Boltace Slide AoE already has LoS.

And while devs are looking at Telos Boltace, I request you and the dev team to look at Vaykor Sydon and Secura Lecta. These two are downright awful, compared to the others.

Edited October 19, 2016 by DEADSHOT456
Meant Lecta, wrote Penta..I wish I stop confusing the names.

[DEADSHOT456]

20 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

(e.g. the Machete, which can easily oneshot most Starchart enemies when built right)

Really now? You want to compare a Syndicate melee to Machete, the worst group of melee in the game? (I think worst melee is a tie between Machete and dual daggers)

There are numerous melee weapons which do not even need to scale well because they can already perform perfectly fine upto Level 120-130.

Like you, I have been using Telos Boltace a lot. The major reason is that I was farming Ayatans and stars and Telos Voltace makes that easy by breaking containers that show up on loot radar, thus leaving Ayatans on the minimap. But I did not feel that Telos Boltace was OP. Not even close. The LoS is awful on it. Half the time it misses enemies directly behind me. When I go for high level missions, I always take Galatine Prime/ Nikana Prime/ War/ Broken War/ Mios(this one more often since its slide attack with Primed Reach is actually useful in real situations unlike Telos Boltace).

22 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

The only other weapon I can think of with this same capability is the Ignis, but you don't see this one being used much since its damage doesn't scale well with levels at all.

You can only think of Ignis? That's it?

No Synoid Simulor? No Tonkor? No Sonicor? And these things do not even have the infamous LoS that Telos Boltace have...

[Lucernam]

15 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

I don't know if you watch or read One Punch Man, but Saitama(the main protagonist) is OP in every sense of the word and doesn't like it so much -- makes his life boring that he can't find a challenge. Being ridiculously powerful/unbeatable in games makes it very boring and stagnant pretty quickly, like Saitama's dilemma.

I actually have not gotten around to OPM yet, though it's in my "to-do" list.

Re: challenge, I guess it is just a balancing act, but I feel like the "nerf this" solution is the default and I worry it is suggested too often. It could also come down to what people are looking for in a game. Some want a puzzle or a challenge, I tend to enjoy the power fantasy, the Dynasty Warriors-esque gameplay of you versus a zillion dudes, and you just lay waste to them all because you're just so awesome. I know not everyone wants that, but for me that's what I tend to enjoy. I suppose you're right though, too easy and even the mowing down those aforementioned zillion dudes would get boring.

[Kaokasalis]

If the wave were made unable to crit and unable to destroy crates unless you have LoS on them like how it works with enemies, then the weapon would be a step in the right direction.

[Callback]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Clearly, something needs to change. Maybe not just "nerf the range and call it a day" for the reasons you mentioned, but something should be done about the weapon so it can remain viable at high-levels without trivializing low-levels.

Being overleveled/overgeared is going to trivialize low levels no matter what you're using.

 

It sounds to me like this thing is just an efficient crate sweeper to make finding medallions easier.  If it were removed, people would probably go max range fire Chroma and do the same thing.  People without the weapon already insta-clear low level rooms with warframe abilities, and between efficiency mods and the abundance of energy they can easily do that for a whole mission with no problems.  Why is having a weapon whose one point of strength is its AoE radius such a bad thing?

 

If it really needs nerfs, it's not to low-level stuff, it's to the abuse cases at higher levels.  Projectile cancelling, for one, might be a bit much on this.  Same with CC if the blast procs I'm hearing about aren't a bug.  This is all high-level utility that would trivialize defense missions when it's available for free on a melee.

 

The main question for whether something is OP is does it edge out all other weapons in the slot?  In this case it's a no.  It's good for fast runs of low stuff, but other melee weapons are much better for sustained DPS, combos, high-level stealth finishers, modding towards unique frame melees, etc.

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, Callback said:

Being overleveled/overgeared is going to trivialize low levels no matter what you're using.

Pretty good point. Why should the telos boltace be up on the chopping block when there are many many other weapons/abilities that can accomplish the same general feat as the telos boltace?

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

2 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Pretty good point. Why should the telos boltace be up on the chopping block when there are many many other weapons/abilities that can accomplish the same general feat as the telos boltace?

thats what I'm trying to tell everyone here for few hours now

[Tsukinoki]

5 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Pretty good point. Why should the telos boltace be up on the chopping block when there are many many other weapons/abilities that can accomplish the same general feat as the telos boltace?

And I would like to add that the vast majority of them can accomplish it a lot more reliably and consistently.
After all, you don't need to worry about whether your Rhino's Stomp (which at max rank has the same base radius as the Telos Boltace does with a Primed Reach put in it) is going to hit the enemy behind the one standing right in front of you.  Or worry whether its going to be stopped by the knee-high wall to your right.
And with even a basic "Stretch" mod, that stomp is going to hit 36.25 meters, not have its damage reduced by distance, and is going to CC all the targets it hits...and at low level it will just flat out kill everything it hits, and by low levels I mean pretty much everywhere on the starchart.

I could completely replace the Telos Boltace with a non maxed Rhino running through the mission and repeatedly casting Stomp over and over again and do it better and faster than a person with a Maxed out Telos Boltace.
The only thing that the telos boltace has in that situation is breaking boxes...

[heckraizer]

I myself have trouble with Nerf threads why can't you just let people enjoy the weapons they like. For every single thing in this game their is you don't like their i someone who enjoys it. If you don't like a weapon because it is too strong then don't play with it you don't need to ruin the fun of the people who do like it. I enjoy the telos boltace it is a great weapon for looting and dealing with low level enemies fast but the damage fades fast in  large group of enemies because of the LoS feature it has.

[shellspeed1]

Make it so telos boltace can only open containers?

[Rolunde]

1 hour ago, Skaleek said:

... Why should the telos boltace be up on the chopping block when there are many many other weapons/abilities that can accomplish the same general feat as the telos boltace?

Oh don't worry, if the "nerf herders" get their way they'll need more projects and will just work their way across the lists until the below is all they'll be good for. =p

3 minutes ago, shellspeed1 said:

Make it so telos boltace can only open containers?

I expect even then there would be someone that would call that "op, needs nerf".

Seriously...