DE, here is a possible solution to fix Telos Boltace.

[Skaleek]

Well there's clearly two sides... I mean if you start crusading to nerf aoe's in general I could see why... those of you who have played longer than 2 years might remember WF used to be much more tactical and a lot less zombie hoard shooter. If we ever want to bring it back to that feeling (that's a big if), most aoe's will need to be gutted. I see why people are asking for this weapon to be rebalanced. Slash procs aren't really a thing with this weapon though... it's just it's base slide attack damage is the highest in WF.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Skaleek

[blackheartstar_pc]

3 hours ago, Rolunde said:

I expect even then there would be someone that would call that "op, needs nerf".

Seriously... 

I can see it now. Please nerf the Telos Boltaces container wave as it is trivializing our loot farming. Opening every container in the room at once is too op. It ruins my fun because I want to open the most containers.

Edited October 19, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[shut]

4 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Its not just the infinite HP.
I mean having a free 50%-110% bonus damage to everything you hit is one of the few reasons it does so well at higher levels and removing that, or making it cost, would hit the weapon decently hard in terms of power.  It would essentially be the same thing as reducing the damage of the weapon 1/3rd to 1/2....

Not that I disagree or anything, but my point was that the TBoltace will happily nuke away at low-leveled maps regardless of the channeling bug.

4 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

In ideal situations, sure.
In real situations?  Almost never.

-snip-

This is totally true. But even if you have to spin a couple extra times, the end result is that a low-leveled *outdoor map will still be emptied in <2 seconds. This issue (i.e. emptying low-leveled maps too quickly for low-leveled teammates to get a shot in) is kinda why this thread exists in the first place.

 

4 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Really now? You want to compare a Syndicate melee to Machete, the worst group of melee in the game? (I think worst melee is a tie between Machete and dual daggers)

There are numerous melee weapons which do not even need to scale well because they can already perform perfectly fine upto Level 120-130.

I should probably clarify.
When I mentioned the TBoltace trivializing low-leveled content, folks responded that everything can trivialize content. This is 100% true (hence the Machete thing). But what I meant was that the TBoltace can do the same to huge swathes of enemies at the same time with just a few swings.

I mentioned the Ignis since it was the first gun I could think of that can do the same thing (albeit with far worse damage scaling).
The SSimulor (11m sphere) and Tonkor (9-12m sphere) both have less than half the radius of a TBoltace and are a bit more finicky to use, so despite being fantastic crowd-destroyers (that are very often complained about), they can't quite nuke entire maps with the level of ease that the TBoltace (25m sphere) and Ignis (40m cone) can. Not outdoor maps, anyways.

 

 

Overall, my main point is just that it's exceptionally good at making things boring for low-leveled teammates, which I think is a no-no.
Just to clarify, I'm actually very satisfied with the weapon's attack power at higher levels.

Edited October 19, 2016 by SortaRandom

[Fari]

On 10/18/2016 at 4:07 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

This detail in particular (weapon must be equipped to receive the spin attack benefit) is something you can expect to test out / play with the next deployment. Further review will follow!

...Well, it was a cool weapon for a little while.At least I can go back to using Redeemer instead now.

*edit* if the spin is equip only how about making the move benefit always? Isn't one always one temp the whole thing with these weapons?

Edited October 20, 2016 by NearoC

[Chipputer]

43 minutes ago, NearoC said:

Isn't one always one temp the whole thing with these weapons?

... no? Telos is the only one that has anything happen when you use it while sheathed.

[DEADSHOT456]

10 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

The SSimulor (11m sphere) and Tonkor (9-12m sphere) both have less than half the radius of a TBoltace and are a bit more finicky to use,

Yes they have less range, but finicky to use? I would be hard pressed to call Synoid Simulor finicky when,even without Mirage, you can click 2-3 times and everything in sight dies.

10 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

so despite being fantastic crowd-destroyers (that are very often complained about), they can't quite nuke entire maps with the level of ease that the TBoltace (25m sphere) and Ignis (40m cone) can. Not outdoor maps, anyways.

And this is where you are wrong on multiple accounts. When people say "clear entire maps", they do not mean the present room and the next five rooms. Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are much better room-clearers than Telos Boltace, even you know that well enough.

The second thing you are wrong about is the theoretical max range of TBoltace. The 25m range does not help TBoltace much if if can not reliably damage enemies standing right beside or behind me, or enemies that are covered 1/4th by crates or dead bodies(due to it's infamous LoS and no punchthrough). Whereas, even though Ignis have less damage, it will surely hit the enemies in the 40m cone, due to innate punchthrough.

If anything is finicky, it is TBoltace. Not Tonkor, not Ignis and certainly not SSimulor.

10 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Overall, my main point is just that it's exceptionally good at making things boring for low-leveled teammates, which I think is a no-no.

Everything is exceptionally good at low-levels. When other posters said this, they were right. Every single Warframe that has AoE ultimate trivializes low level. So, what's your point?

Rhino Stomp is an exceptionally good damage ability at low levels. Does that mean Stomp needs a damage nerf? Of course not!

If something is exceptionally good at low levels, it clearly means that it is meant for higher levels. You don't go and nerf things on the basis of how they perform at low levels when fully modded.

[shut]

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Yes they have less range, but finicky to use? I would be hard pressed to call Synoid Simulor finicky when,even without Mirage, you can click 2-3 times and everything in sight dies.

I didn't say they were finicky. I said they were "a bit more finicky than the Telos Boltace".
I'm well aware that the SSimulor is braindead easy to use, thanks. My point is that the TBoltace is even easier.

41 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

And this is where you are wrong on multiple accounts. When people say "clear entire maps", they do not mean the present room and the next five rooms. Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are much better room-clearers than Telos Boltace, even you know that well enough.

I literally specified "outdoor maps". If I wanted to say that TBoltace was better for small rooms (which is obviously false), I would have said that it's better for small rooms.

42 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

The second thing you are wrong about is the theoretical max range of TBoltace. The 25m range does not help TBoltace much if if can not reliably damage enemies standing right beside or behind me, or enemies that are covered 1/4th by crates or dead bodies(due to it's infamous LoS and no punchthrough). Whereas, even though Ignis have less damage, it will surely hit the enemies in the 40m cone, due to innate punchthrough.

The thing about the TBoltace is that you can attack multiple times a second from moderately different angles. If you didn't kill that level 1 Butcher standing behind you, then just swing again. The only cost for missing that first swing is less than half a second of your time (compared to something like the Tonkor, which punishes you more harshly for missed shots).

51 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Everything is exceptionally good at low-levels. When other posters said this, they were right.

You say this as though I think those people were wrong. Read my post again.

53 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Every single Warframe that has AoE ultimate trivializes low level. So, what's your point?

Rhino Stomp is an exceptionally good damage ability at low levels. Does that mean Stomp needs a damage nerf? Of course not!

AoE ultimates also cost energy and can't be spammed twice a second.

56 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

If something is exceptionally good at low levels, it clearly means that it is meant for higher levels.

If you're talking about literally anything besides raw damage, then this statement is false. "Good at low levels" (i.e. dealing triple-digit damage to a bunch of enemies at once) does not equate to "meant for high levels" (i.e. actually dealing a crapton of damage). Ignis, Radial Javelin, Rhino Stomp's damage, etc. are all proof of this.

 

________________________

 

Posting into this thread has been eating into my time a bit too much for my liking, so I'm just going to duck out of the thread here. I highly doubt that this post will convince you to see things the way I do, but hopefully my overall point is at least coming across.

[Tsukinoki]

16 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Overall, my main point is just that it's exceptionally good at making things boring for low-leveled teammates, which I think is a no-no.
Just to clarify, I'm actually very satisfied with the weapon's attack power at higher levels.

With this being the case then, that its only a problem when you consider low-level maps and teammates then how about this:
Instead of nerfing the T.Boltace how about we just fix the match-making so that there is less of a chance of matching an MR8+ with an mr2-4 or something?
That way that newer players don't have to worry about super high levels ruining their missions when they are just starting out.

Of course this would have to be an option for the player to toggle, or even set the MR range that they want to be matched with.
But my idea is that when you go to public and you have that MR range set it would only match players together who are all in everyones MR range.

I think that that would be a fairly elegant solution to what you see as the main problem.

[Fuemego]

On 10/18/2016 at 7:10 PM, Lucernam said:

Why is the forum's solution to everything nerf this, nerf that? Isn't part of the fun of this game being an OP space ninja who fells all foes before him/her?

We should be asking for buffs instead so everything can be on par so we have more choices since people who ask for nerfs complain we have no weapon diversity.

[Fuemego]

On 10/18/2016 at 6:22 PM, EmptyDevil said:

One possible way to fix this weapon is to make it so that it can only shoot projectiles if you're in melee mode AND channeling while performing a slide attack. It should consume energy every time a player launches the projectiles.

This should solve the macro-and-forget problem this weapon has because of it's power and lack of drawbacks.

Why not buff something instead so it could be an alternative to the Telos Boltace?

[Sloan441]

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 7:10 PM, Lucernam said:

Why is the forum's solution to everything nerf this, nerf that? Isn't part of the fun of this game being an OP space ninja who fells all foes before him/her?

When you start seeing players using nothing but at the expense of hundreds of other weapons, there's a problem.

When your new whatsit trivializes most other aspects of your game, there's a problem.

The devs like making bold moves in gadgets and new abilities, but sometimes it's way too bold and needs reined in. This weapon is a case in point.

[x4531791224]

On 2016/10/19 at 7:07 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

This detail in particular (weapon must be equipped to receive the spin attack benefit) is something you can expect to test out / play with the next deployment. Further review will follow!

about finisher attack need separate button from melee attack

let us choose when we really need finisher

Charged Attacks   Slide Attacks  always interrupt because  auto finisher attack

this problem its many years 

please separate finisher attack button from melee attack 

So can we expect to change this ? or any response ?

Edited October 20, 2016 by x4531791224

[DarcnyssWolfe]

1 hour ago, x4531791224 said:

about finisher attack need separate button from melee attack

let us choose when we really need finisher

Charged Attacks   Slide Attacks  always interrupt because  auto finisher attack

this problem its many years 

please separate finisher attack button from melee attack 

So can I expect to change this ? or any response ?

Is it shouted at them by the Nerf-herd? No? Then likely not for quite a while as they only knee-jerk, err I mean hotfix things like this when it's demanded by dozens of forumites.

Edited October 20, 2016 by DarcnyssWolfe
Clarity

[x4531791224]

1 hour ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

Is it shouted at them by the Nerf-herd? No? Then likely not for quite a while as they only knee-jerk, err I mean hotfix things like this when it's demanded by dozens of forumites.

actually i just want talk this is really serious problem

because  Charged Attacks   Slide Attacks  or any combo always interrupt because  auto finisher attack

and if telos boltace really need nerf they should face this "old" problem 

because you need more close to do more dmg

and finisher attack always interrupt you

 

 

and much more deleted title from old  forum

Edited October 20, 2016 by x4531791224

[Soketsu]

again... a cry for an useless nerf

alright nerf this weapon, make it under used cause right now, it the only thing attractive on this weapon, nerf it so I will keep my galatine p & my nikana p as my melee weapon, don't want to spend more plats for my inventory...

On 19/10/2016 at 1:36 AM, ashrah said:

why not buff weak wepons and bring it to line with good wepons..

Cause it easier when you have to choose between galatine p or (insert weapon with high dps here or hight critcal chance), and one shot lvl 40 - 50 with an uppgraded weapon is still an amazing thing for the cryning nerfing squad.

[Chipputer]

"I'm going to load up a topic and say that people are just crying for a nerf without looking into why. Just a nerf. Blah blah blah The Nerf Crowd blah blah blah."

It's not that the weapon is powerful in a single area. It's that it's powerful in numerous areas. Galatine Prime and Nikana Prime are just powerhouses up close with high slash and crit. Could they use a toning down? Quite possibly, but I don't see the point.

This weapon literally detonates bombard rockets, causes mass status procs, if they trigger, or guarantees mass slash procs (these stack), gives you unmatched mobility in the thick of it, works with all of the current invisibility modifiers, and does it all without leaving you vulnerable for a second.

Make it require the weapon to be equipped. Make the shockwave not affected by range mods. Problem. Solved.

[Ziden_]

Thank you for whining about a weapon and saying it needed to be "fixed."  How is changing the Telos Boltace going to directly impact your gameplay?  Why not ask for other syndicate weaponry or other melee weaponry to be buffed instead?  You think it's imbalanced?  Well most of the weapons and frames are imbalanced, so what?  It's a video game.  The Telos Boltace was the most fun melee weapon to use, now it's been toned down thanks to your moaning.

Think before you ask things to be nerfed.  Instead, ask for other things to be buffed.  Of all the things that needed "fixing" the Telos Boltace was not one of them.  Good job, guys, you won and got a bit of a nerf.  What are you going to nerf next?  Tonkor? Tigris? Anything that doesn't suit the way you believe the game should be played?  Good luck have fun.

[x4531791224]

59 minutes ago, Ziden_ said:

Thank you for whining about a weapon and saying it needed to be "fixed."  How is changing the Telos Boltace going to directly impact your gameplay?  Why not ask for other syndicate weaponry or other melee weaponry to be buffed instead?  You think it's imbalanced?  Well most of the weapons and frames are imbalanced, so what?  It's a video game.  The Telos Boltace was the most fun melee weapon to use, now it's been toned down thanks to your moaning.

Think before you ask things to be nerfed.  Instead, ask for other things to be buffed.  Of all the things that needed "fixing" the Telos Boltace was not one of them.  Good job, guys, you won and got a bit of a nerf.  What are you going to nerf next?  Tonkor? Tigris? Anything that doesn't suit the way you believe the game should be played?  Good luck have fun.

Agree

this is why we always don't deserve have good weapon 

because always nerf anything fast than buff something

"and" 

If Telos Boltace can't use passive on fast melee

I think all syndicate melee weapon can't use too 

because this is not fair

all syndicate melee weapon has " 2 " passive

Why Telos Boltace can't use any passive on fast melee

Edited October 21, 2016 by x4531791224

[Gsterman]

Meanwhile people are perfectly okay with the Tigris Prime and how status works for that, people are okay with the Zenistar and it doing massive damage (especially against blinded enemies), but the Telos Boltace? Now that weapon is just broken.

The slide attack wave barely touches high level enemies and is worthless against anything other than mid level and low level enemies, the whole shtick with the slide attack was its utility against crates and sensor doors. It never instakilled, it was never broken. All you're doing is hampering a fun weapon that's also good (a rarity in Warframe). It doesnt even scale of off the combo counter, meaning it isnt completely ridiculous (because Blood Rush and other mods dont work on the wave). It is only affected by crit mods (which is why maiming strike is very good on it) and base damage mods.

Instead of letting a cool and unique weapon get nerfed for no good reason then why not focus on things like mentioned above. Maybe fix the whole Synoid Sim. + Mirage thing that everyone has been harping on about, or fix matchmaking so that it isnt constantly bugged out all the time. Maybe you could even address the ridiculous armor scaling some enemies have so that the only weapons that can be reliably used on higher level enemies are weapons that absolutely dominate.

 

[EmptyDevil]

@[DE]Rebecca The recent change was good, but still doesn't solve the macro/script spam seen in some missions. A player can still make one of these and endlessly spam slide attack after switching to melee mode. Unfortunately, It seems to be the go-to weapon in The Index if you want to point hog your squadmates.

This weapon already gives the player a free innate Mobilize as a passive bonus, so the slide attack ability should be gated by Channeling at the very least.

[ssh83]

5 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

@[DE]Rebecca The recent change was good, but still doesn't solve the macro/script spam seen in some missions. A player can still make one of these and endlessly spam slide attack after switching to melee mode. Unfortunately, It seems to be the go-to weapon in The Index if you want to point hog your squadmates.

This weapon already gives the player a free innate Mobilize as a passive bonus, so the slide attack ability should be gated by Channeling at the very least.

How does Telos Boltace point-hog squadmate?  Thank goodness most people don't know how to slide+roll to move fast, otherwise that's going to get attacked too.  Haters ruin this game. lol

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

29 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

@[DE]Rebecca The recent change was good, but still doesn't solve the macro/script spam seen in some missions. A player can still make one of these and endlessly spam slide attack after switching to melee mode. Unfortunately, It seems to be the go-to weapon in The Index if you want to point hog your squadmates.

This weapon already gives the player a free innate Mobilize as a passive bonus, so the slide attack ability should be gated by Channeling at the very least.

what did that boltace did to you? it was perfectly fine without the recent change, theres nothing wrong with that weapon... why we can't have good meele weapons? we have tonkors. simulors but thats ok cuz everyone uses them right? lets ruin the only fun to play meele weapon this game has to offer...

DE should really listen to content creators and people that actually play the game instead of people that just go around crying to nerf literally every new addition to the game on forums

can't wait till we get a new spear weapon! or that sentinel thingy! just to have some fun with it for a week until the nerf army starts crying that they are too fun and too unique and its about time to make em as plain and boring as any other weapon we had so far! great!

[Ziden_]

 

46 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

How does Telos Boltace point-hog squadmate?  Thank goodness most people don't know how to slide+roll to move fast, otherwise that's going to get attacked too.  Haters ruin this game. lol

Man you are so on point!  It's like this on every game's forums.  A small group of complainers voicing the opinions of a very very VERY small percentage of the player base.  Who knew you needed a macro to slide attack effectively?  Furthermore, how dare people slide attack with weapons DESIGNED FOR SLIDE ATTACKS lol....

 

19 minutes ago, Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern said:

what did that boltace did to you? it was perfectly fine without the recent change, theres nothing wrong with that weapon... why we can't have good meele weapons? we have tonkors. simulors but thats ok cuz everyone uses them right? lets ruin the only fun to play meele weapon this game has to offer...

DE should really listen to content creators and people that actually play the game instead of people that just go around crying to nerf literally every new addition to the game on forums

can't wait till we get a new spear weapon! or that sentinel thingy! just to have some fun with it for a week until the nerf army starts crying that they are too fun and too unique and its about time to make em as plain and boring as any other weapon we had so far! great!

Totally agree man.  People aren't screaming to nerf Trinity or any of the things that SUIT their playstyle or things they like and/or use.  They just want to take away things they don't like, which is simply absurd.

[Tsukinoki]

5 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Make the shockwave not affected by range mods. Problem. Solved.

And therefore make the weapon strictly worse than any of the whips or the Orthos Prime.

It's like you don't even understand that the spin-wave is blocked by everything(including dead bodies, boxes, knee-high barriers, other enemies, and even slight elevation changes let alone any pipes or anything else that clutter most maps) and only has a 9 meter range at base.
Meanwhile the Whips and Orthos prime with Primed Reach have a greater than 9(Some whips have an 11-12) meter range and aren't blocked by anything.

Its like you don't even understand that the spin-waves damage decreases the further you get away from the source.
Meanwhile the Whips and Orthos prime with Primed Reach don't have decreasing damage.

Its like you don't even understand that the spin wave doesn't benefit from combo counters or mods that work off of combo counters (such as Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds).
Meanwhile the Whips and Orthos Prime with Primed Reach have their greater than 9 meter ranges get full benefit from all of those.

Its like you don't even understand that the forced bleed proc only deals 710 damage over 6 seconds at the absolute most(And this is only if the enemy is directly touching you as the damage fall off for this weapon is quite harsh).  Which is utterly pitiful at higher levels wher enemies have thousands upon thousands of health.
Meanwhile the Atterax with a decent status chance deals slash procs that deal tons more damage, and that can be further increased as the combo counter goes up for the Atterax.

So please tell me:
Why are you so dead set on making an MR8 weapon to be utterly useless and pointless compared to an MR2-3 weapon?
Why are you so dead set on making the weapons on defining feature be that it has the worst spin attacks in the entire game?
Why are you so dead set on taking away the one advantage that the weapon has?

Edited October 21, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[Ninja_Of_Deep_Concern]

2 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

So please tell me:
Why are you so dead set on making an MR8 weapon to be utterly useless and pointless compared to an MR2-3 weapon?
Why are you so dead set on making the weapons on defining feature be that it has the worst spin attacks in the entire game?
Why are you so dead set on taking away the one advantage that the weapon has?

"cuz dem other peeps outscore me and open caches so quick! it annoyes me very! my 40 forma galatine prime can't do da! nerf! nerf!"