Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

58 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

However the current system and system DE suggested is unbalanced.Capture and exterminates will remain supreme while the endless mission will just collect dust.

Actually, it's perfectly balanced. The input/output is the same across all mission types with the proposed changes. But since endless has scaling difficulty, your gains are getting slower and slower. But ignoring the matter of efficiency for a moment, risk/reward is one of the most gratifying mechanics in all of gaming. Endless missions become more and more difficult. If there isn't an equivalent boost in your gains, then it's not really a gamble and you don't get that rush at the end.

True, scaling gains are no substitute for satisfying combat. But they'll get to that in due time.

The main argument against risk/reward for endless is that, if one mission type is objectively more profitable, players may feel like anything else is a waste of time. But if all you're getting is a trace multiplier, then it's not a 1:1 comparison to the old void. That system had a direct payout: how long you stayed in void survival determined the total output of that key. T3 survival in particular could be very scarce, especially with the bug that scrambled keys awarded at extraction.

Under the new system, all you're getting is a bonus to a resource that allows you to bias the results of your relics. When it comes to actually cracking relics, the changes to endless do allow you to multi-task trace farming with relic cracking, but only with prior preparation. Non-endless is still hypothetically more practical for obtaining parts.

Edited November 1, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir
Spacebar decided to push itself a lot.

[CalmAndHappy]

So endless are coming back.Yey.But there are some things ppl dont agree upon like having to chose new relic ever round/5min/5waves witch is a problem if you dont have metric ton of them.The problem im seeing here is that if we stay longer we are not getting anything other then more void traces witch I think is meh at best.What i suggest is that if we stay past first 2 rounds/10min/10waves we get % increase to rear drops in relics and it keeps rising ever 5-10 mins in sur or... you get the idea.Or maybe we can chose at break points(end of rund/5 min sur/5 waves im caling them like that now) not to take reward and doing that buffs next relic we chose by %.

Thoughts?

[ranks21]

do you smell that<<>> the holidays are  coming, companies are lowering prices for fun games. classics and proven entertaining titles that has sequels, has been bundled just waiting to be on your pc or in your consoles. DE should be privileged to have " us, the player base" still squabbling at the mess they throw at us...

sure you can cling to the "F2P" and all the bs that comes with it, because you refuse to give other games a chance or is just too cheap or broke to afford something fresh, new, entertaining and fun. they have gotten enough of my time and money and ultimately to put it really short, i'm not too thrilled with their product as of late. everything is actually going against what I enjoyed about the game to the time I have to actually play the game. nowadays it's more frustration to do simple tasks with what little time I have for it to be an entertaining escape from the stresses I face daily at work.

 I didnt use it (warframe, the game) for personal or monetary gains, I played for mostly relaxation and entertainment, getting a new mod here or there, trying out new weapons for the lels.. it has ultimately failed in these areas.

[ranks21]

might aswell leave it as it is, as all this reroll and or chance % increase wont make any difference than what it already is... some things were better left alone, changing it for the sake of change, just makes it a big mess.. gotta call the pig, pig. it is what it is. plain and simple.

[Mr._Clean]

Agreed, besides more traces, unless it's a significant amount, there's no reason to stay longer. I could go farm a capture in 2mins for traces if I was really trying to get traces. Increasing the chance of a rare (or maybe somehow a chance at refunding any used relics? idk) or basically anything other than traces which are easily farmable elsewhere would be a better solution.

[(PSN)Exi-Eni-Eli]

11 hours ago, Legacy_STALKER said:

Or maybe we can chose at break points(end of rund/5 min sur/5 waves im caling them like that now) not to take reward and doing that buffs next relic we chose by %.

Honestly I was against the whole "buff reward chance as you go" part of the concept, but then you said this. That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

The only problem I have with the relics is the fact that it made everything a lot easier to get. I know that sounds elitist or inconsiderate or whatever, but think about it. Less rarity = Less involvement in trade chat for most users = Less people interacting with their own community. But even then I think this is a good idea. Regardless of what happens in trade chat, it's quite obvious we'll need some incentive to keep going. I think this is a good way to give said incentive. It's balanced. It wouldn't kill prime parts any more than it already has, and it would give us reason to do endless longer. I am very fond of this idea ^_^

11 hours ago, Mr._Clean said:

(or maybe somehow a chance at refunding

I think this would be a cool option, but all in all never used, Unless you went for like an hour in Survival (or the equivalent of that in other endless modes) and didn't get what you wanted. But I think overall it would make it all seem like an even bigger waste of time. But I guess at least you'd get to keep your relic, I suppose .

[Kimimoto]

I understand why some people are upset with the proposed system, but most other player proposed systems would cause major problems in the economy since rare parts are so ludicrously easy to get now(I know I got Nekros in about an hour or so). The void trace increase they're looking at for time spent in endless seems like a fair balance between no rewards and too many rewards. Not to mention you're probably going to be earning relics as you do endless off the normal AABC rewards. That being said it'll probably be closer to 2 rewards per relic, since you'll probably earn 1-2 relics for each rotation(4 relics spent, but 2 earned, 4 - 2 = 2 relics for 4 rewards). Even besides that point, relics are WAY easier to get than keys were. If you disagree I'd ask you to go do Xini for 12 waves or so. I bet 10/12 waves will give you a relic, when did the old void keys ever drop like that?

Overall you get:

• Progressively more traces 
• Normal rotation rewards(which based on how the loot tables were changed will be close to 50% relics)
• You can challenge yourself (no more T1 captures)
• No more in between mission downtime 

I will be playing the hell out of this when it comes out, regardless of what is more efficient.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Kimimoto

[Chewarette]

Just make the thing consume one relic for 4 rotations.

Rotation As would give you something in the Common loottable, rotation B something in the full loottable and rotation C dunno... decreased probability in having a Common loot maybe. Or only Common+Uncommon in B and full loottable in C.

This way you would have the choice between zerging extermination/capture for fast radiant run to get your rare thing, and the endless for ducats farming

The problem is, if Endless gives you something all the other modes don't have, you'll only run Endless without caring anymore about the others. But if Endless doesn't give you anything, you won't care at all about it

Edited November 2, 2016 by Chewarette

[Nazrethim]

I find really annoying that people say "Endless = Prime".

DE should buff endless modes rewards across the whole system, not just fissure. As for fissure endless.. yeah, what they are going to do is the best option.

[blackheartstar_pc]

This proposed system is just as bad as what we currently have. I hope the feedback given here encourages them rethink the endless revival because traces are not going to bring it back. Not sure how they even thought those were proper motivation.

[Coherent_Exile]

What is this about?

This is my feedback based on an idea I heard in the second stream podcast and a talk about the larger picture.

What was the idea?

I forget who gave the idea but it was that with each rotation the rarity of your relic would increase, so an unranked relic would be a radiant relic by the fourth reward.

My thoughts and talks!

So I completely fell in love with this idea, it would give players more of a reason to play further into endless but also would not push it to be something that is the end all be all.

One issue I had was that after the fourth wave players wouldn't have too much of a reason to continue on other than the multiplier on void traces.

Another issue I'd have is what about players using a radiant relic on one of the higher waves?

What do I think would help fix it?

I'd personally like to have the system be a +% based system.. so if you use a unranked relic on reward 4 then it would be equivalent to the drop chances of a radiant but for actually radiant relics they would get a buff to their rare drop chances but not as much as an unranked. 

This would both fix two issues of mine, why would you stay after the fourth wave and why would you use a radiant relic with the new system. Providing DE do a decent multiplier on the traces rewarded it would be a good system, using the traces earned to fuel your radiants, using radiants to get more rares.

But wait! This issues don't stop here!

Another issue I had is less with the actual endless system but the relic system and how this main issue will be a big reason why some people don't want to go endless.

In the void key times one t4 survival would get four people a possible unlimited amount of rewards (based on how long they go) but now it is one reward for one relic but the amount you get the relics in is not really enough in my opinion to be fair enough. 

Not that I can't handle the grind, it simply falls to the new player experience and just not a fun set of grinding. The grind for relics is boring and isn't productive enough and for a new player getting relics at a decent rate is terrible since to effectively play on the best relic drop spots require mostly higher level gear. 

My thoughts to fix it!

My idea is that:

1. Relics drop in multiples and it scales better with the missions level. A level 39+ giving 3-4-5 relics per turn, I'd say at least at level 15 it should increase to 2 relic drops.

and

2. Relics come in alerts, dropping also in packs of multiples and some upgraded.  

Finishing off:

I feel if we sorted out the relic drop rates to be somewhat more rewarding and easier to access to new players it would help a lot with some of the issues people have with endless. Then the buff to relic rarity and trace drops in endless will give more rewards to why you go and spend a ton of relics and races in the missions! 

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Coherent_Exile

[Magnulast]

 

1. Relics drop in multiples and it scales better with the missions level. A level 39+ giving 3-4-5 relics per turn, I'd say at least at level 15 it should increase to 2 relic drops.

UNLIMITED RELICS! (Turns? Or rounds? AABC? or A-A-B-C?)

Useless idea in spoiler.

Spoiler

I would suggest a 2x increase in relic drops around 25 level, and upon level 40, a Chance for a 3x relic drop.

I was thinking the opposite, where instead of wasting thousands of hours on grinding, we could just add the ability on higher levels, to use a Axi+Neo combo after 20 minutes.

And after 40, Axi+Neo+Meso

And after 60, Axi+Neo+Meso+Lith.

But to counter this, each relic adds a challenge to complete within the time frame of each Rotation it's set on, or round.

Likewise, something like, Kill 200 enimies with your primary weapon/Kill 300 enimies with weapons/Reach a combo of 300 hits./Get 150 headshots./Kill 50x of Heavy enimies.

-Counter Challenges/Cannot use 4th ability, Cannot use more than 300 energy/Must do atleast 60% of damage with weapons./

And each relic adding a challenge to complete at that, any sort of failure to complete all challenges, results into a complete loss of relics.

Also, the more relics you use for that turn/round, (Relic reload point, or RRP) Decreases the amount of traces no matter what.

This way, it could be more effective over time, using relics in seconds for those who know how to use weapons.

[ograzzt]

23 minutes ago, Coherent_Exile said:

it would give players more of a reason to play further into endless but also would not push it to be something that is the end all be all.

 

24 minutes ago, Coherent_Exile said:

for actually radiant relics they would get a buff to their rare drop chances

But that's exactly what will happen then, endless missions will become almost mandatory again.

[Coherent_Exile]

3 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

 

1. Relics drop in multiples and it scales better with the missions level. A level 39+ giving 3-4-5 relics per turn, I'd say at least at level 15 it should increase to 2 relic drops.

UNLIMITED RELICS! (Turns? Or rounds? AABC? or A-A-B-C?)

Useless idea in spoiler.

  Hide contents

I would suggest a 2x increase in relic drops around 25 level, and upon level 40, a Chance for a 3x relic drop.

I was thinking the opposite, where instead of wasting thousands of hours on grinding, we could just add the ability on higher levels, to use a Axi+Neo combo after 20 minutes.

And after 40, Axi+Neo+Meso

And after 60, Axi+Neo+Meso+Lith.

But to counter this, each relic adds a challenge to complete within the time frame of each Rotation it's set on, or round.

Likewise, something like, Kill 200 enimies with your primary weapon/Kill 300 enimies with weapons/Reach a combo of 300 hits./Get 150 headshots./Kill 50x of Heavy enimies.

-Counter Challenges/Cannot use 4th ability, Cannot use more than 300 energy/Must do atleast 60% of damage with weapons./

And each relic adding a challenge to complete at that, any sort of failure to complete all challenges, results into a complete loss of relics.

Also, the more relics you use for that turn/round, (Relic reload point, or RRP) Decreases the amount of traces no matter what.

This way, it could be more effective over time, using relics in seconds for those who know how to use weapons.

I really didn't understand what you suggested, I get the 2x and 3x relic drops per levels but the rest I had a hard time understanding what you meant by "add the ability to use on higher levels a axi + neo combo" 

[CalmAndHappy]

heh i made a topic about pretty much same idea that was said in second stream but yea they would need to increase drops of relics 

[Coherent_Exile]

3 minutes ago, ograzzt said:

 

But that's exactly what will happen then, endless missions will become almost mandatory again.

Not really! People who want to do faster missions with an exact rarity level in mind would do the other missions (capture, exterminate, rescue.) 

Other missions like Mobile Defense (and somewhat rescue) are flawed missions without much fun around them that need a looking at.

The buff to rarity gives you more of a reason to play longer but it also would still keep faster missions like Ext and Cap having a reason to play. 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

18 minutes ago, Coherent_Exile said:

Not that I can't handle the grind, it simply falls to the new player experience and just not a fun set of grinding. The grind for relics is boring and isn't productive enough and for a new player getting relics at a decent rate is terrible since to effectively play on the best relic drop spots require mostly higher level gear. 

Before I comment on your larger point... I've been playing on my basically fresh PC account. My Ember is r30 and potato'd. She's using an unpotato'd r30 Dread and potato'd Dual Ethers. Until recently, she was using Paris. Neither my frame nor weapons have any corrupted or nightmare mods, and the only max rank mod I own is Continuity. She can handle Heiracon up to 1100 cryotic in pub with no trouble. "Higher level" gear allows you to trivialize everything under lv80, but it's by no means required. Maybe if you're farming Mot exclusively.

Personally, I dislike the idea of endless buffing relic results. For two reasons.

1) Burning three junk relics to run your intended radiant wouldn't keep me from feeling like anything but endless was a waste. If it's only a small recurring buff at C rotation, then maybe. A small buff would still be exploitable with a squad all running the same radiant. But generally, I don't like the idea.

2) This would be awful for recruiting. The time it takes to recruit a full squad for a specific relic is already enough that people just leave. If you also have to explain which rotation to queue the intended relic on? And trust that people won't accidentally queue their radiant at the wrong time, or that they aren't leeching? It's like keysharing anxiety taken to eleven.

The idea for a scaling trace multiplier is much cleaner. Sure, it's not the most thrilling thing in the world. But it provides a genuine advantage, helps out trading virgins who can't use Smeeta and boosters to farm traces, requires no more setup than recruiting for any given mission, and it doesn't create disparity in mission rewards.

[Coherent_Exile]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Before I comment on your larger point... I've been playing on my basically fresh PC account. My Ember is r30 and potato'd. She's using an unpotato'd r30 Dread and potato'd Dual Ethers. Until recently, she was using Paris. Neither my frame nor weapons have any corrupted or nightmare mods, and the only max rank mod I own is Continuity. She can handle Heiracon up to 1100 cryotic in pub with no trouble. "Higher level" gear allows you to trivialize everything under lv80, but it's by no means required. Maybe if you're farming Mot exclusively.

Personally, I dislike the idea of endless buffing relic results. For two reasons.

1) Burning three junk relics to run your intended radiant wouldn't keep me from feeling like anything but endless was a waste. If it's only a small recurring buff at C rotation, then maybe. A small buff would still be exploitable with a squad all running the same radiant. But generally, I don't like the idea.

2) This would be awful for recruiting. The time it takes to recruit a full squad for a specific relic is already enough that people just leave. If you also have to explain which rotation to queue the intended relic on? And trust that people won't accidentally queue their radiant at the wrong time, or that they aren't leeching? It's like keysharing anxiety taken to eleven.

The idea for a scaling trace multiplier is much cleaner. Sure, it's not the most thrilling thing in the world. But it provides a genuine advantage, helps out trading virgins who can't use Smeeta and boosters to farm traces, requires no more setup than recruiting for any given mission, and it doesn't create disparity in mission rewards.

But did you create your Pc account without any prior information on the game or experience? I was talking about the new player experience and just starting a new account only means you really just don't have a reliable supply you may have had from before the change from keys. I feel it is too much of a grind and isn't a fair rate.  

I forgot to mention but each reward would give you a rare drop boost chance to your relics but not as much as a radiant every 4 rewards.

So the first reward is based upon whatever rank your relic is, radiants don't get as much as buff on the fourth wave but they would have a slightly higher chance than normal and compared to an unranked relic.

So to be perfectly honest most people would use a radiant on the first wave and then use the lower upgrade levels between to make the most out of their chances, of course you can use anything anywhere but it gives more reasons to also semi-upgrade.

If you want a common item then you either use  relic on the first wave unupgraded or you do capture and ext. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Coherent_Exile

[o.0-]

Hmm... maybe with diminishing returns?

 

Need to re-read with so much being in Italics.

[Coherent_Exile]

11 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Hmm... maybe with diminishing returns?

 

Need to re-read with so much being in Italics.

What diminishing returns do you think are good? 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

8 minutes ago, Coherent_Exile said:

But did you create your Pc account without any prior information on the game or experience? I was talking about the new player experience and just starting a new account only means you really just don't have a reliable supply you may have had from before the change from keys. I feel it is too much of a grind and isn't a fair rate.  

When I revisited my PC account several weeks ago, I had about 20ish relics converted from keys. It was still MR2. I had not used the account in over two years, before the console version was even announced.

Yes, I have a great deal of knowledge and personal skill carrying over from the console version, which is MR22 with all Prime frames and weapons (except Tigris, that damn BP forever eludes me) and about 200 forma between them. With what I know, I'm able to plan my way through the star chart effectively, and I'm fortunate to have most of the planets unlocked since the account predates Steam integration. All of that is true.

But on PC, I don't have anything special where gear's concerned. None of my potatoes were purchased with plat; they are from promotional events and alerts. Any player with the same gear as me can perform effectively in much harder content than you're assuming. Maybe you don't like Heiracon. Alright, that's understandable. Anything gets tedious in large volumes. I don't see the appeal in 2hr survival runs either. All I'm saying is endgame gear is not required to earn rare relics at the same rate as players sitting on hordes of Prime frames/weapons.

[Coherent_Exile]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

When I revisited my PC account several weeks ago, I had about 20ish relics converted from keys. It was still MR2. I had not used the account in over two years, before the console version was even announced.

Yes, I have a great deal of knowledge and personal skill carrying over from the console version, which is MR22 with all Prime frames and weapons (except Tigris, that damn BP forever eludes me) and about 200 forma between them. With what I know, I'm able to plan my way through the star chart effectively, and I'm fortunate to have most of the planets unlocked since the account predates Steam integration. All of that is true.

But on PC, I don't have anything special where gear's concerned. None of my potatoes were purchased with plat; they are from promotional events and alerts. Any player with the same gear as me can perform effectively in much harder content than you're assuming. Maybe you don't like Heiracon. Alright, that's understandable. Anything gets tedious in large volumes. I don't see the appeal in 2hr survival runs either. All I'm saying is endgame gear is not required to earn rare relics at the same rate as players sitting on hordes of Prime frames/weapons.

I get what you are saying but without being a new player you still have experience and understanding of systems that other new players don't have which is what increases the time it would take for a new player to reach Heiracon which is practically the best place for higher tiered relics. They for a while might not know that every devstream there is a reward or that those rewards are anything special.

They might not be able to access those reward alerts for a while and so on which makes it a longer journey.

Players will usually always reach the high tier gear after a certain amount of time but simply speaking the way it works right now is that either you spend hours farming relics for not much in return or use a mass you have kept if you had a bunch before the update.

I'd like to see the amount of relics you get increase by a pretty big margin. 

[Xekrin]

I was stricken by a constant shuddering during the points in the second stream where they explained fissure survivals pausing every 5 minutes.  I am simply and ardently against survivals getting the pauses that afflict defense/interceptions.

I will graciously accept the first iteration of this new mechanic being introduced but it is my fervent hope that they will continue to figure out a way to smooth the flow with relics and endless fissures.

Yeah I could play normal survivals without such interruptions but they have the same problem as endless fissures, no reward incentive to keep going.

That's all.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

There's always plenty of people willing to taxi players to alerts.

There's something I'm unclear on. Your phrasing in the OP confuses me (also I'm a little drunk). Are you saying that endless should award more relics? Or that you feel relics aren't plentiful enough for newer players, so running them is a hard choice?

Because the way I'm interpreting your suggestion is that rotations provide a bonus to the result of your relic. But your suggestion about this indicates to me you're not aware of the drop chances. Under the old void system, most rare drops had a 5% rate and tables were heavily polluted. An intact relic has a 2% chance of awarding the rare result. At exceptional, that increases to 4%. At flawless, it's 6%. At radiant, 10%. If four players have a radiant relic equipped, the average chance that at least one of them will roll the rare result is 34%. Which means, on average, a squad with four radiants will receive the rare result on one-in-three runs. Increasing the odds of a radiant relic awarding the rare part even by an additional 5% brings the average odds of a radiant squad to about 50%. So you can understand my reticence.

Rebecca made the suggestion to auto-radiant equipped relics at rotation C. This is also a questionable idea. If a squad chooses to forego a relic for the first three rotations, and simply earn traces, they can equip what would otherwise be a trash relic at rot C and get easy rares. Then, using the 24-120 traces they earned (unless they have Smeeta/booster, in which case it would be 72-240+), they can radiant a relic for the next run and have extremely high odds at a rare for two rotations.

I'm not against this because I hate getting cool stuff. On the contrary, I would have to force myself to do anything but endless. And that's the problem. Void fatigue came from running the same damn mission on the same tileset over and over and over. At worst, this is still better than that because you're seeing multiple tilesets, and any endless mission type will do. You have a choice, albeit an unbalanced one, whereas before you had none. My concern is that excavation is already the best relic farm because it's so fast. Under the above system, it would also be the best place to crack relics and get traces.

However, if all you want is more relics, syndicates are an excellent source of them. But I wouldn't be against more options for obtaining them. Spy missions in particular could use a shot at relics in A and B rotations, with rot C being a guaranteed relic (all only on perfect runs, of course). Finding all caches in sabotage takes forever; giving it the same treatment would only be fair. Exterminate and capture have always had terrible rewards.

[Coherent_Exile]

18 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

I was stricken by a constant shuddering during the points in the second stream where they explained fissure survivals pausing every 5 minutes.  I am simply and ardently against survivals getting the pauses that afflict defense/interceptions.

I will graciously accept the first iteration of this new mechanic being introduced but it is my fervent hope that they will continue to figure out a way to smooth the flow with relics and endless fissures.

Yeah I could play normal survivals without such interruptions but they have the same problem as endless fissures, no reward incentive to keep going.

That's all.

I was thinking possibly that you could set up a prematch chart so if you want to go endless on survival it would have a few sets you create which take from your relics.

So you could say "First relic is a B1 neo and then the next is a D5 Axi and so on and so forth. 

It would mean for endless you'd take some time to set up before going in to actually do things but it would be able to make it so it didn't have to pause. Perhaps putting in a random relic if a person hasn't set up a relic set (with toggles for just not using one at all)