Skill-based Acid Shells type mod for snipers?

[Azrael]

So there have been many threads lately asking for QoL changes to snipers, but they often focus on doing more damage. To me, it seems that giving more direct damage to snipers fixes the wrong problem. Snipers already do enough damage, their problem is that this is a horde game and doing stupid amounts of damage to one of 20 enemies isn't that helpful. So I would like to propose a different type of improvement for snipers: explosive rounds.

In keeping with the idea behind snipers, this mod would only trigger on a headshot. It would do a cold damage AoE within 8 meters of the target, dealing 200+ 40% of enemy max health as cold damage. I'm still torn on whether it should trigger on all headshots, or only on headshot kills.

So why cold damage? This mod is intended to help snipers deal with hordes, so let's give it a guaranteed cold proc in that radius as well. Every enemy within 8 meters of the target gets slowed by the cold proc as well as damaged, and the duration of the slow scales with the combo counter. The damage done by the mod does NOT scale with the combo counter, because that would be op.

So this would allow snipers to provide some limited CC, and deal with large groups more effectively, as well as encouraging headshots.

What do you guys think?

[Tricky5hift]

Pretty cool idea but I feel people would just use Nova/Frost for their abilities that slow down all enemies in an even larger range.

 

[Nazrethim]

I think IPS or Blast would make more sense, as the explosive bullet gives the impression the bullets fragment and spread shrapnel around.

Another posibility would be to make those fragments deal a % of the sniper damage to enemies in a short radius, so if you land a headshot that damage is increased, but it still helps bodyshots

[Azrael]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

Pretty cool idea but I feel people would just use Nova/Frost for their abilities that slow down all enemies in an even larger range.

 

Maybe I don't want to use those frames? I mean, yeah, it's not like this would make snipers the only weapon class anybody uses, but we don't want that anyway. I'm imagining using my lanka on hieracon as trinity, and it seems like it'd be a lot more fun to use this way. (provided of course that I can even GET headshots on infested...  :( )

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I think IPS or Blast would make more sense, as the explosive bullet gives the impression the bullets fragment and spread shrapnel around.

Blast would make the most sense by itself, but I wanted the cold proc. And it's not like the other mods like this make sense. The detron mod does magnetic, the sobek one does corrosive, and the jat kitty one does blast? Why on earth does the detron mod do magnetic damage?

But yeah, mainly I just wanted an easy path to an AoE slow.

 

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Another posibility would be to make those fragments deal a % of the sniper damage to enemies in a short radius

This, I fear, would be too powerful, unless it was a really small percentage.

[Tricky5hift]

Just now, Azrael said:

Maybe I don't want to use those frames? I mean, yeah, it's not like this would make snipers the only weapon class anybody uses, but we don't want that anyway. I'm imagining using my lanka on hieracon as trinity, and it seems like it'd be a lot more fun to use this way. (provided of course that I can even GET headshots on infested...  :( )

There are so many frames that have abilities that stun or CC enemies that I just feel having a small cold proc is pretty redundant.

Trinity is probably the only exception because she has literally no CC in her kit.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Azrael said:

Blast would make the most sense by itself, but I wanted the cold proc. And it's not like the other mods like this make sense. The detron mod does magnetic, the sobek one does corrosive, and the jat kitty one does blast? Why on earth does the detron mod do magnetic damage?

But yeah, mainly I just wanted an easy path to an AoE slow.

Actually DE would just need to add the slow effect as an addition. See how Sinkin Talon stance can force a Slash proc, even if you use a Ceramic Dagger that doesn't have Slash at all.

That's because what you see and what "the game" sees are totally different. You see a unit getting shot with a certain element. "the game" sees interaction between data. So the damage type could be Fire and still apply slow, if the interactions are coded that way.

Just now, Azrael said:

This, I fear, would be too powerful, unless it was a really small percentage.

Well, could be a 30% maxed, could also be a double mod: +X% Headshot multiplier and 30% damage is spread to nearby enemies. So a normal shot wouldn't be much effective, but headshots would be able to potentially f^ck up a whole platoon, maybe anihilating it if you land two consecutive headshots.

[Pyus]

32 minutes ago, Azrael said:

*Great Idea, Snip*

Great Idea, I like turning Snipers into large AOEs especially in a game where the mechanics favor AOE weapons to deal with hordes. 

I'll throw my own suggestion in, what if there was a new electric based sniper from the Amprex line of weapons. You fire it and it arcs to the target, but if it kills it, the remaining damage will arc to an additional mob with range. If the second arc kills that mob, it will continue until all the over damage is depleted.  Hit a mob for 5 million and watch the crowd go wild. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Pyus
Pore Grammer

[Azrael]

5 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

There are so many frames that have abilities that stun or CC enemies that I just feel having a small cold proc is pretty redundant.

Trinity is probably the only exception because she has literally no CC in her kit.

Nova, frost, inaros, and the like have short-range CC abilities. Frost's 1 has more range, but is a slow projectile. A rubico with this mod could slow down enemies at great distances, and feel cool (get it?) while doing it.

When the Vaykor Sydon was released, did people complain about having another blind ability (yea I know its mechanics need work, that's not what I mean)? It's okay to have something that does something similar to something else, so long as that something works a little differently (man that sentence was garbled). This would be different because of it's range and because it's not on a frame or dependent on energy, and also because it would be fun to use and satisfying.

 

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

That's because what you see and what "the game" sees are totally different. You see a unit getting shot with a certain element. "the game" sees interaction between data. So the damage type could be Fire and still apply slow, if the interactions are coded that way.

Yes, but a fire AoE with a slow would make less sense than a cold AoE with a cold proc. It's not about coding it, it's about the mod making sense. Maybe call it "cryo-tipped rounds" or something. We stuck some cryotic in the bullet, and now it does a cold blast.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Azrael said:

Yes, but a fire AoE with a slow would make less sense than a cold AoE with a cold proc. It's not about coding it, it's about the mod making sense. Maybe call it "cryo-tipped rounds" or something. We stuck some cryotic in the bullet, and now it does a cold blast.

And now you understand what's the other important part of a Mod concept: name that gives sense to the effect.

[Azrael]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

And now you understand what's the other important part of a Mod concept: name that gives sense to the effect.

Heh heh, I'm just worried it will sound too much like "Cryo Rounds."

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Azrael said:

Heh heh, I'm just worried it will sound too much like "Cryo Rounds."

"Sub-zero ammunition"? "Blizzard rounds" ?

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

"Sub-zero ammunition"? "Blizzard rounds" ?

I like the first one, as it will definitely not be confused with the elemental mod. I'm not good at coming up with names.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Azrael said:

I like the first one, as it will definitely not be confused with the elemental mod. I'm not good at coming up with names.

Don't work your head too much, remember DE named mods "Brain Storm" and "Plan B". So if you can't come up with a smart name, come up with a wacky one. xD

[bluepheonix13]

First thing that came to mind when reading your post:

 

Jokes aside, I approve of this mod and I feel like it'll make us see people using snipers more often aside from sorties.

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, bluepheonix13 said:

First thing that came to mind when reading your post:

 

Jokes aside, I approve of this mod and I feel like it'll make us see people using snipers more often aside from sorties.

Oh, jeez, that's awesome. It'll never make it into the game, but can you imagine a consumable sold by baro that did this to snipers? Like, you get 50 shots that spawn confetti and cheering on an enemy kill. I would buy so many....

 

Anyway, thanks for your support! I'm not derailing my own topic, nosirree...

 

 

[Jackviator]

I dunno... I feel like this would turn into yet another required mod on most sniper builds, and act as a band-aid fix to their mechanics.

Whereas, if all snipers were given something like, say, innate punch-through without needing a mod (which the community has kinda been asking for for about 2 years now) that would A, not take up a mod slot, B, help take care of enemies in cover (which I think is reasonable for a high-powered, single-shot priority-target killer) and C, help deal with groups more effectively if you're skillful enough to line up shots into lines of enemies.

Don't get me wrong, I would love this if it were an augment for sniper rifles like the Lanka or something, I'd just like to see it alongside an actual, implemented fix to their mechanics that isn't a band-aid and makes them more viable across the board, without wasting a mod slot.

[Fansay]

I am all for this idea as I have suggested something similar before in a post relating to snipers.

I like the idea for the slow proc, CC is deffinitely a bonus when you're using a sniper.
Also, I would prefer if it was finisher damage because any other damage falls off terribly once you hit level 60 with armour. This also means its performance is consistent accross all factions. I mean...heavy grineer shrug off the Sobek's augment's corrosive damage.
Though the issue then becomes blowing up an entire wave with 1 headshot.

I also do not believe it would be a bandaid mod, as in organised squads you could give up the augment for more damage, being tasked with eliminating high priority targets while others deal with the grunts. Also I already achieve similar effects using an elec/gas Lanka build, but really only works effectively in levels upto about 60 where it starts to fall off. But remains reasonably potent against Corpus for a while.

But what if it become something like "Liquifying Shots".
A headshot kill causes the enemy to explode covering nearby enemies (8m range?) in a corrosive goo. The goo slows and applies a corrosive proc (perhaps every 2-3s?). Lasts 2-4s (time scales off combo counter as you suggested?). Explosion does [toxin/heat/finisher] damage. I was also thinking a secondary application of the goo would cause it to have some interesting interaction (combust? just more damage? another proc type? increase slow?)

 

I love the idea!

Edited November 8, 2016 by Fansay

[Cyandana]

I think Acid Shells for snipers is a great idea. It's a bandaid mod that is actually appropriate.

Snipers kill one thing, from far away, really well.

There are lots of perfectly decent snipers DPS wise.

The problem is that the amount of content which FAVORS taking out a priority target from a long range is... basically non existent. Most content involves kill hordes of enemies, in medium or close corridors - where snipers and their FoV/Scopes are a handicap. Any time you could use a sniper, a Rakta Cernos would serve you better.

[Landpaddle]

On 11/7/2016 at 9:56 PM, Jackviator said:

I dunno... I feel like this would turn into yet another required mod on most sniper builds, and act as a band-aid fix to their mechanics.

Whereas, if all snipers were given something like, say, innate punch-through without needing a mod (which the community has kinda been asking for for about 2 years now) that would A, not take up a mod slot, B, help take care of enemies in cover (which I think is reasonable for a high-powered, single-shot priority-target killer) and C, help deal with groups more effectively if you're skillful enough to line up shots into lines of enemies.

Don't get me wrong, I would love this if it were an augment for sniper rifles like the Lanka or something, I'd just like to see it alongside an actual, implemented fix to their mechanics that isn't a band-aid and makes them more viable across the board, without wasting a mod slot.

Seriously, this. High-powered, cumbersome weapons should have some innate punch-through to at least be able to chip away mobs from short-to-medium range. You're often placed in situations where it's not possible to line up shots from a far enough distance, and trying to fend off hordes is so tricky that I'd rather go through the notorious two-second animation just to swap to a secondary.

Another issue with snipers is that they just plain suck against Nullifiers. Each shot dings away at that bubble, and enemy AI is programmed to huddle underneath it to make Nullifiers priority targets. Snipers could do with the unique capacity to ignore these bubbles completely and just kill the nullifier, since those bubbles are meant to reduce power overuse, not make an entire class of weapons an unfun hassle in higher level void and corpus maps.

As for the Acid Shells-like mod, please keep in mind that the Acid Shells radial effect is inconsistent even when playing Solo and doesn't scale well for anything but Infested. It only works off enemy max HP, and in my experience that does not count their shields; moreover, damage is mitigated by enemy armor, rendering it ineffective in high-level corpus or void and sortie-level Grineer missions where a sniper's high damage is desirable.

[JalakBali]

I don't agree with the OP. Because this would make the sniper rifle into an AOE weapon which we have already. I do agree with the idea that the sniper rifle should be rewarding to skill level. I have an old idea that never seem to get any traction and it works like this:

- If you used a sniper rifle's scope (aka zooming in), you would see the enemies' "weak points". It works like how Sonar or Helios work.

- Only someone with a sniper rifle and using the zoom would see these points.

- Hitting the weak points would give 5x the damage or 75% damage to maximum health, whichever is higher.

- Only sniper rifles get the bonus from the weak points, even if you're not zoomed in. So hitting the weak point with any other weapon doesn't give you any bonus.

- Snipers are silent but only if it gets a kill when shooting.

 

So, playing with a sniper rifle would reward you if you have good aim, killing even tough enemies with a couple of shots at most.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Landpaddle said:

As for the Acid Shells-like mod, please keep in mind that the Acid Shells radial effect is inconsistent even when playing Solo and doesn't scale well for anything but Infested. It only works off enemy max HP, and in my experience that does not count their shields; moreover, damage is mitigated by enemy armor, rendering it ineffective in high-level corpus or void and sortie-level Grineer missions where a sniper's high damage is desirable.

The AoE CC element will scale very well, because CC always scales better than damage. That's why I made it a cold AoE with a guaranteed proc and scaling duration. This isn't intended to make snipers the best weapons in the game, or make them good at every possible situation in the game. It's meant to improve their value against large groups, which is a common occurrence in warframe.

I agree that snipers should also have innate punch-though, but that has been suggested many times. Making snipers punch through nully bubbles has also been suggested many times already. I was trying to provide a new idea that DE might actually use.

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, JalakBali said:

So, playing with a sniper rifle would reward you if you have good aim, killing even tough enemies with a couple of shots at most.

And still they wouldn't be used often because killing a single enemy in one shot, slowly, is not usually all that helpful. And while we have AoE weapons, none of them work the way this mod would work. At high levels it wouldn't even be an AoE weapon with this augment, it'd just be a sniper with an AoE slow on headshot.

[taiiat]

i'm sure the Mod would be of use - though the Damage amount and Range should be lower than counterparts (could perhaps get away with same Range but much lower Damage, like <=5%). still Precision Weapons, making them into Rocket Launchers doesn't do the game any favors.
thematically i'd say Impact + Status but Ice is fine.
difficult choice to choose something like this or Punch-Through, which is a plus.

 

On 11/7/2016 at 9:06 PM, Azrael said:

Nova, frost, inaros, and the like have short-range CC abilities.

• the statistically best Frost has very high Power Range, and literally all of his Abilities have a CC component. even more w/ Augments if you just can't get enough.
• Pocket Sand may not have super high Range but Inaros will have high Range normally anyways, and since you're basically invulnerable w/ infinite Energy, you can use it everywhere, constantly.
• and excuse me? Molecular Prime is the longest Range CC Ability in the entire game.

14 minutes ago, Azrael said:

And while we have AoE weapons, none of them work the way this mod would work. At high levels it wouldn't even be an AoE weapon with this augment, it'd just be a sniper with an AoE slow on headshot.

???
but this type of Mod scales, while Weapons don't normally. taking a fixed Percentage of the Health of Enemies and dealing AoE Damage from it means it gets more effective as the Enemy Level goes up.
because Weapons in general went down.

[Azrael]

45 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but this type of Mod scales, while Weapons don't normally. taking a fixed Percentage of the Health of Enemies and dealing AoE Damage from it means it gets more effective as the Enemy Level goes up.
because Weapons in general went down.

That was in response to someone saying that % health still won't scale well enough. He's got a point, too, enemy EHP scales faster than enemy health so acid shells still falls off. I was just pointing out that even when it does the CC won't.

 

47 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and excuse me? Molecular Prime is the longest Range CC Ability in the entire game.

It wouldn't be if this mod were released. But my point was that those frames have CC abilities that work differently than this mod would. Nova still has to wait until prime gets there, but a sniper could CC a group instantly from much farther away.

 

49 minutes ago, taiiat said:

making them into Rocket Launchers doesn't do the game any favors.

I really imagined it as a CC ability that can help clear groups of light enemies, rather than an AoE explosion for massive damage. Although I may have set the damage too high. If you think it should be lower, then what do you think it should be? I'm more attached to the idea and the CC, then the specific numbers.