New stealth mechanic makes bows useless in stealth.

[Xephier223]

As the title says the new corpse spotting mechanic makes bows unusable. If you shoot the enemy off and the corpse goes flying through a room into the next, well they ALL know you're there now. It alerts every npc it flies past and anyone on the wall where it lands. 

 

While I can understand the ideas of "oh hey they'd notice that corpse" or with the bubble of "Oh hey my big &#! forcefield is shrinking." I can understand that it should alert them. But at the same time in this game with how clustered enemies are and at times frequent the nullifier fields are, it just makes doing a stealth run several times more difficult to near impossible in some circumstances. 

 

This patch has made me not want to use arrow/projectile weapons that carry a corpse with them anymore. Such as any bows, ballistica or boltor based weaponry.

[Irorone]

Honestly the only way they can "fix" that stealth is to offer mods that instantly destroy corpses.

Channeling melees can do that but that second or so of floating corpse makes that moot.

So yeah my gripe with the new stealth mechanic is there's no way to prepare for it as things stand.  AI wise I consider it a QoL update that I can shoot a guy with a bow and said corpse sailing past his buddy would alert him to imminent danger.  On the flip side we need ways to NOT trigger that via either preparation with modding or some other method.

[Bobtm]

Yeah it's a peculiar situation with regards to stealth at the moment.  In just about any stealth type game you'd find, enemies becoming aware upon seeing a corpse is to be expected, however as a mechanic this doesn't really work in Warframe.

Stealth games have very fixed and timed enemy spawns with predictable pathing, lots of very aptly placed cover, and usually some form of available distraction type mechanics.  An enemy can spot a corpse, but a player can also hide corpses in some manner.  It's the mix of both a player's abilities and the enemies' awareness traits that mix together to make the stealth of a stealth game feel valid and worthwhile.

Warframe however, is not really a stealth game.  Enemies noticing corpses just legitimately does not work with the gameplay mechanics we've got.

For a really funny note;  Check Ivara's profile video which was dropped for her release in U18.  This was back before the start of these stealth updates (the concept behind them is good, but they mechanically do not mesh with Warframe).  With regards to her, one of her four first abilities, the noise arrow, is now actually bad for stealth play.  Grouping enemies up effectively disallows a player from reaping the benefits of a stealth multiplier bonus.  Beyond that her Artemis bow is, as this thread is noting, a very terrible weapon for beneficial stealth play.

The improvement to enemy AI is a nice thing, however right now all it is serving to do is ruin stealth as a viable option.

[Yaikser]

"press X to drag body" (wouldn't it be cool like in payday games XD) thought it won't solve the pin to the walls and arrrow-propelled corpses.

[Xephier223]

 

5 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Yeah it's a peculiar situation with regards to stealth at the moment.  In just about any stealth type game you'd find, enemies becoming aware upon seeing a corpse is to be expected, however as a mechanic this doesn't really work in Warframe.

Stealth games have very fixed and timed enemy spawns with predictable pathing, lots of very aptly placed cover, and usually some form of available distraction type mechanics.  An enemy can spot a corpse, but a player can also hide corpses in some manner.  It's the mix of both a player's abilities and the enemies' awareness traits that mix together to make the stealth of a stealth game feel valid and worthwhile.

Warframe however, is not really a stealth game.  Enemies noticing corpses just legitimately does not work with the gameplay mechanics we've got.

For a really funny note;  Check Ivara's profile video which was dropped for her release in U18.  This was back before the start of these stealth updates (the concept behind them is good, but they mechanically do not mesh with Warframe).  With regards to her, one of her four first abilities, the noise arrow, is now actually bad for stealth play.  Grouping enemies up effectively disallows a player from reaping the benefits of a stealth multiplier bonus.  Beyond that her Artemis bow is, as this thread is noting, a very terrible weapon for beneficial stealth play.

The improvement to enemy AI is a nice thing, however right now all it is serving to do is ruin stealth as a viable option.

 

10 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Honestly the only way they can "fix" that stealth is to offer mods that instantly destroy corpses.

Channeling melees can do that but that second or so of floating corpse makes that moot.

So yeah my gripe with the new stealth mechanic is there's no way to prepare for it as things stand.  AI wise I consider it a QoL update that I can shoot a guy with a bow and said corpse sailing past his buddy would alert him to imminent danger.  On the flip side we need ways to NOT trigger that via either preparation with modding or some other method.

I agree whole heartedly with you Bobtm that the stealth/enemy ai is a nice update and one that makes more sense as far as the enemy noticing things as well as more logical in some of the actions that can be taken. For the moment i've switched from bow to normal silenced guns, despite the downgrade in single target damage (due to needing a silence mod) and the opinion of loving the bow mechanics prior to this patch. This update has effectively made bows and weapons with similar projectile function unusable in stealth play simply and purely. 

As for addressing the idea of adding a mod to 'fix' this. That idea honestly, while it would be effective, makes me mad quite irritated because it just feels like a mod that will just make this whole update pointless. I honestly do LOVE this update because (save for the bow) I love the new stealth mechanic, it makes it fun to wait for enemies to patrol away or using different methods to go un-noticed rather than just stealthing and stabbing/shooting everything in my path. It to me is a very nice change of pace. But adding a mod like this just feels like it'd be taking away from the experience as a whole. 

Honestly I would like a way to move or get rid of the corpse without having to dedicate a mod or weapon (I tested to see if the Broken Scepter's drain would keep the corpse form being spotted, it does.) to doing so. 

[Xephier223]

3 minutes ago, Yaikser said:

"press X to drag body" (wouldn't it be cool like in payday games XD) thought it won't solve the pin to the walls and arrrow-propelled corpses.

While it would be a nice function, save for spy missions (unless you can use the corpses as body shields) Serves little purpose.

[AXCrusnik]

Making a change like this shouldn't be done on it's own... Should have been done with a stealth 2.0 kind of update or at the very least some way to counter it.

Warframe's primarily an action game. We have very little tools in the way of stealth... so  with the War Within changes it feels like stealth is a flat head screw and all DE gave us was a philips screwdriver. We can make it work, but it won't be easy, and probably won't be done well.

Also I remember a time when bows alerted people like this before. Honestly I feel like the corpse flying is gimmicky if this feature is gonna stick around and would rather bows just make things die normally.

Edited November 16, 2016 by AXCrusnik

[Xephier223]

1 minute ago, AXCrusnik said:

Making a change like this shouldn't be done on it's own... Should have been done with a stealth 2.0 kind of update or at the very least some way to counter it.

Also I remember a time when bows alerted people like this before. Honestly I feel like the corpse flying is gimmicky if this feature is gonna stick around and would rather bows just make things die normally.

I fullly do agree with the idea that it should have some counter in mind, such as taking some extra time to digitize (like you do in captures) the corpse maybe. As far as the bows priorly alerting people, I do remeber that, and I won't lie it is gimmicky and hilarious (part of the reason I am a huge bow fan in this game) to watch, but at this rather i would rather they die the same as if I had shot them with a normal projectile that has punch through.

 

[Serinexxa]

I tend to use a silenced Lanka, it gets the job done pretty well. I have a lot easier time with it than bows and their weird arc-firing.

 

Haven't noticed these changes yet, but I know certain elemental effects tend to "dispose" of an enemy rather quick, as in they disintegrate shortly after death. I think it's fire and gas that do this but not entirely sure.

[BBOTAA]

Stealth doesn't really belong on a game where the enemies spawn in packs.
In warframe is really rare that you have one enemy alone, and even more rare that enemies doesn't cross the eye sight of another couple of enemies, not to mention that there's snipers also on both corpus in grineer that I suppose they have a longer line of sight and  this guys can be found almost every other room.
It's still doable but not really in stealthy way of playing, but trough nuking groups of enemies and using invisibility, wich is far from a standard stealth gameplay or that can be even called stealth gameplay.
So for this mechanic to work , you would totally need another type mission,dedicated to stealth and with enemy positing and line of sight in mind relative to an objective.
Not to mention that once again the enemies were upgrade and the actions to counter these upgrades were forgotten again. Like crouch to reduce enemy visibility, or shadows to do the same,hiding and carrying enemies... Many things, but i think the surface why warframe isn't in the state to have these mechanics was demonstrated.

[Ragingwasabi]

i mean fair enough. what do u do when u see ur friends body hanging from the wall?

yo fred, lookin good there

[Xephier223]

3 minutes ago, Serinexxa said:

I tend to use a silenced Lanka, it gets the job done pretty well. I have a lot easier time with it than bows and their weird arc-firing.

 

Haven't noticed these changes yet, but I know certain elemental effects tend to "dispose" of an enemy rather quick, as in they disintegrate shortly after death. I think it's fire and gas that do this but not entirely sure.

Lanka does not share the problem that the bows do, IE dragging the corpse with the arrow projectile and having everyone spot the flying corpse. Also Daikyu fires in a straight line (not prevalent to the discussion, just a suggestion to you.) 

 

As far as the dispose function, it is more based on the body signature than the actual model that is the corpse, a good way to guess if the enemy can see it or not is by using the thought "Can Nekros desecrate it." While some elements do cause corpses to physically disappear, their mark remains and still gives nekros a chance to get extra loot off of them.  (Mind you this next part has been my experience so far.)

I have tested out the idea of using different disintegrating elements and most of them were noticed within a few moments after the corpse had disappeared. While the window may of been shorter it still doesn't seem to stop them from alerting other people.

[heisthex]

Going in to a room and seeing a group of 6 - 7 enemies, bringing my Atterax in one fast wipe is so satisfying and fun, rewarding for the stealth kill and good amount of affinities.

Now seeing a group of enemies in a room make thinking it will alerted them and ruining all the stealth multiplier you are so hard to keep maintaining at 500% through out the game because of the corpse sensory as soon one enemy die and triggered the entire room.

[Xephier223]

 

2 minutes ago, Ragingwasabi said:

i mean fair enough. what do u do when u see ur friends body hanging from the wall?

yo fred, lookin good there

I don't mind that corpses are spotted, I am overall ok with this and honestly am quite enjoying it, more so I wish the bow/projectile gimick was updated with this to either not do what it does or be able to turn it off.

[Xephier223]

2 minutes ago, heisthex said:

Going in to a room and seeing a group of 6 - 7 enemies, bringing my Atterax in one fast wipe is so satisfying and fun, rewarding for the stealth kill and good amount of affinities.

Now seeing a group of enemies in a room make thinking it will alerted them and ruining all the stealth multiplier you are so hard to keep maintaining at 500% through out the game because of the corpse sensory as soon one enemy die and triggered the entire room.

So far the only way I have managed to keep my stealth score up is to either kill everyone near simultaniously (Using Ash, Ember, Equinox, Mesa or Saryn's nuking abilities.) Or manage to CC them with sleep so they don't notice it. (Equinox's sleep and Ivara's sleep arrow) 

[Ragingwasabi]

ah yes now that is a good point, arrows shouldnt push enemies so far. when i picked the paris made my first kill my jaw dropped to the ground O__O

[Xephier223]

24 minutes ago, Ragingwasabi said:

ah yes now that is a good point, arrows shouldnt push enemies so far. when i picked the paris made my first kill my jaw dropped to the ground O__O

Hehe indeed it was very funny to watch, but now, as much as I'll miss it, it needs to either just drop the enemy like a normal shot, or have a significantly short carry distance.

[Evanescent]

The problem with making the AI more alert in warframe currently is that the spawning, pathing and distribution of enemies with respect to the tilesets and their aability to detect is absolute garbage for stealth. You cannot spawn 8 gineer together in an unmoving lump and then make them get alerted if you kill the grineer next to them. You cannot do this when grineer spawn staring at a door and never move, and their fellows doing the same don't move either.

FIx how they spawn, give them patrol paths, give them LoS areas and make stuff more robust before putting these changes to their AI in.

[RedDirtTrooper]

Although I don't like the changes to stealth at all, just making bows no longer carry corpses would also massively nerf their potential damage, as that flying corpse can kill several enemies the way it is now.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Honestly, being alerted should not remove stealth multipliers.  Stealth multipliers should only be removed if you are actually spotted, or they see the kill.

[TaylorsContraction]

Solution to the bow problem is remove rag doll, wall sticking feature of bows. I always felt this was stupid and needles, and suddenly we have a legit reason to get rid of this feature so I'll speak my mind.

[RedDirtTrooper]

stupid and needless or not, it's a massive component of the total damage a bow can do. Even replacing it with massive innate puncture wouldn't make up for the amount of damage a bow can currently do pushing a body down a crowded hallway.

[Xephier223]

13 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

stupid and needless or not, it's a massive component of the total damage a bow can do. Even replacing it with massive innate puncture wouldn't make up for the amount of damage a bow can currently do pushing a body down a crowded hallway.

Been testing this for a while, since your prior post, the arrow's punch-through is doing all the damage, the corpse doesn't do anything from what i've seen. 
 

I've hit enemies with corpses and nothing but as long as the arrow is just in enough angle to go through them with punchthrough it does the damage.

[RedDirtTrooper]

5 minutes ago, Xephier223 said:

Been testing this for a while, since your prior post, the arrow's punch-through is doing all the damage, the corpse doesn't do anything from what i've seen. 
 

I've hit enemies with corpses and nothing but as long as the arrow is just in enough angle to go through them with punchthrough it does the damage.

I wonder when that happened? I admit to only using bows on stealth or bow only sorties most of the time these days, but unless my memory is massively incorrect I assure you the rag dolled bodies used to do damage. The wiki even still lists that info.

[TheBrightKing]

7 hours ago, Xephier223 said:

As the title says the new corpse spotting mechanic makes bows unusable. If you shoot the enemy off and the corpse goes flying through a room into the next, well they ALL know you're there now. It alerts every npc it flies past and anyone on the wall where it lands. 

 

While I can understand the ideas of "oh hey they'd notice that corpse" or with the bubble of "Oh hey my big &#! forcefield is shrinking." I can understand that it should alert them. But at the same time in this game with how clustered enemies are and at times frequent the nullifier fields are, it just makes doing a stealth run several times more difficult to near impossible in some circumstances. 

 

This patch has made me not want to use arrow/projectile weapons that carry a corpse with them anymore. Such as any bows, ballistica or boltor based weaponry.

Yeah, we need something to hide that but the mechanic is good tbh, by now the only thing you can do is shoot with another angle and if you cant kill in melee