Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[FireSegment]

i got another theory about how Valkyr prime was infact design after a Corpus valkyr and it still pretty fitting for the lore.

i made a new topic about it here: 

 

[FireSegment]

11 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

The Gersam is the mass produced model like our other frames that Alad V managed to capture, we just copied the build as it stood since we didn't have a complete blueprint 

Im not entirely sure how "mass produced" frame should be understand in this game, The only mass produce i deemed legit is starter frame that included Excal, Mag, Volt. That's because we tenno wake up as those frame, thus they must be "mass produce" in the pass. However, i believe any Deluxe frames must be rare lore wise. may be even rarer than Prime counter part of it. (as in they was design/produce by an orokin outlaw - Titania creator).

However, u respond may make me edit the TL;DR. It seem to give wrong impression.

[SilvaDreams]

2 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

Im not entirely sure how "mass produced" frame should be understand in this game, The only mass produce i deemed legit is starter frame that included Excal, Mag, Volt. That's because we tenno wake up as those frame, thus they must be "mass produce" in the pass. However, i believe any Deluxe frames must be rare lore wise. may be even rarer than Prime counter part of it. (as in they was design/produce by an orokin outlaw - Titania creator).

However, u respond may make me edit the TL;DR. It seem to give wrong impression.

Well I mean mass produced as in we have the ability to make them in mass were as the Primes were refined and to make them we have to gather the specific parts.

There were obviously two models of Warframe out there for every one.

[SilvaDreams]

5 hours ago, Stoner74 said:

It would make sense... ... If the prime didn't have corpus restraints seen on the first released model, which currently does. 

It doesn't have the restraints.

It has gauntlets, the version we get from Alad V likely just modified that to act as restraints.

Or the Gersemi version was a slightly customized version and had the gauntlets removed.

[Omnipower]

50 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

 We enter the guessing teratory here, but there still plenty of evidences.  Rhino prime lore describe briefly what I assume as an awaken of a frame instead of an operator behind it.

Well if you read that completely you would realise no it wasnt moving on its own just as he was about to strike the scientist that were running from him he stopped short of it because it was aware that it was too close to its operator to do anything without harming them. As the scientist realised this thus they started using tenno as warriors around that point i assume.

[SilvaDreams]

7 minutes ago, Omnipower said:

Well if you read that completely you would realise no it wasnt moving on its own just as he was about to strike the scientist that were running from him he stopped short of it because it was aware that it was too close to its operator to do anything without harming them. As the scientist realised this thus they started using tenno as warriors around that point i assume.

Incorrect, that was an infested creature. But it was likely the base infested creature used to create Rhino later on down the line.

The reason for it stopping was because one of the sleeping Ten Zero children connected to it and thus the discovery that Transference letvthem Controll an infested creature's normally hive mind.

[FireSegment]

28 minutes ago, Omnipower said:

Well if you read that completely you would realise no it wasnt moving on its own just as he was about to strike the scientist that were running from him he stopped short of it because it was aware that it was too close to its operator to do anything without harming them. As the scientist realised this thus they started using tenno as warriors around that point i assume.

Thx for bringing this up, cuz after reading it again, i could point these thing:

 - the scientist working with the beast, infested-like thing for a long time before the operator brought there, base on the reaction on of the one told the story, cuz he didint recognize the zariman cell.

- the beast thing (just call it pre-rhino prime for now then) have sentient, or atleast, alive by itself, without the present of the tennoes. Otherwise these scientist wont need shield and restraint while working with them.

- the "looking at hand" thing in second dream quest by Tenno and shadow stalker  was fore-shadowing here all along ^^ 

Edited January 5, 2017 by FireSegment

[WrathAscending]

The lore has never said that Valkyr's abilities were different before Alad got a hold of her, nor that the Corpus constructed her.

Valkyr's attitude and looks changed at the hands of Alad, sure. Gersemi and Prime having the same animation set is an artifact of OOC concerns; no other skin or Prime has come with different animations either.

[FireSegment]

2 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Valkyr's attitude and looks changed at the hands of Alad, sure. Gersemi and Prime having the same animation set is an artifact of OOC concerns; no other skin or Prime has come with different animations either.

well, im strictly only talking about the lore here, so the animation as a mechanic in game is ... kinda unrelated (i didnt touch any animation in my post). Seriously DE could stretch the same-ability part out to have a "prod" prime theme and a "mad" generic theme, only upset a feel, but still kind-of consistent in lore.

The look and design however, is a different story. There's a whole topic dedicate for this over here that u should take a look, because a lot of ppl was upset on "Why Valkyr Prime not model after Gersemi Prime" here, i simply offer a theory to make sense of that.

 

[WrathAscending]

3 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

well, im strictly only talking about the lore here, so the animation as a mechanic in game is ... kinda unrelated (i didnt touch any animation in my post). Seriously DE could stretch the same-ability part out to have a "prod" prime theme and a "mad" generic theme, only upset a feel, but still kind-of consistent in lore.

The look and design however, is a different story. There's a whole topic dedicate for this over here that u should take a look, because a lot of ppl was upset on "Why Valkyr Prime not model after Gersemi Prime" here, i simply offer a theory to make sense of that.

 

I'm aware of what a lot of people thought was going on with Valkyr lore-wise.

What DE said never lined up with that interpretation though, and the existence of Valkyr Prime should put paid to the notion completely.

Even in terms of looks Valkyr Prime does share some aspects with Gersemi, but mostly goes off in her own direction. I'm not really a fan of how she looks because I think the Prime helm looks a bit silly, but even so you can see the influence of both Gersemi and normal Valkyr in her appearance.

Edited January 5, 2017 by WrathAscending

[UrielColtan]

Jumping the theory gun when the valkyr lore trailer has not been released and the Prime being "corpus based" is subjective. Gersemi skin merely "primed" was never an option because that is a Deluxe skin and they were not going to give a shiny variant of it away for free. thats like making the Nyx Prime look like the Nemesis variant with gold parts.

Edited January 5, 2017 by UrielColtan

[LuckySh0t501]

5 hours ago, FireSegment said:

Im not entirely sure how "mass produced" frame should be understand in this game, The only mass produce i deemed legit is starter frame that included Excal, Mag, Volt. That's because we tenno wake up as those frame, thus they must be "mass produce" in the pass. However, i believe any Deluxe frames must be rare lore wise. may be even rarer than Prime counter part of it. (as in they was design/produce by an orokin outlaw - Titania creator).

However, u respond may make me edit the TL;DR. It seem to give wrong impression.

On Ash Prime there is inscribed in Orokin "Tenno Model 24N - Serial 147H". This suggests mass production of warframes. And it's logical, you would need a lot of us to fight the enemy of the Old War. Warframes are disposable. You trash one, you build another. As long as the pilot is ok...

[Stoner]

7 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

It doesn't have the restraints.

It has gauntlets, the version we get from Alad V likely just modified that to act as restraints.

Or the Gersemi version was a slightly customized version and had the gauntlets removed.

It does have restraints. 

The Gersemi skin, Aka original Valkyr, didn't have those gauntlets / restraints. Meaning she didn't need them to function. Meaning those are corpus restraints but primed by DE. 

Seriously, it's so obvious, how do you people not see that? 

I'm overly tired of explaining that over and over again. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Stoner74

[Achromatic.]

3 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Jumping the theory gun when the valkyr lore trailer has not been released and the Prime being "corpus based" is subjective. Gersemi skin merely "primed" was never an option because that is a Deluxe skin and they were not going to give a shiny variant of it away for free. thats like making the Nyx Prime look like the Nemesis variant with gold parts.

Yup. I don't get why people don't get that DE didn't base it on Gersemi to avoid upsetting people who paid plat for the Gersemi skin by releasing a better shiner version, even if it would've been more lore-friendly.

[--RV--Meta]

Well really the question that everyone should be asking isn't "Why not base it on Gersemi?"

Instead you should be asking "Why base it on the tortured Valkyr?"

There seems little distinction there at first glance, sure, but simply realize that DE didn't have to base the Prime variant on EITHER of those models...they could have come up with something that looked unrelated to both, largely. For other frames, there's never been an issue of basing the Prime design strictly on the common frame, but in this case it does seem to be breaking some of the lore (even though it might not actually, depending on where DE goes with the proper trailer, when they get around to releasing it). So why not avoid both issues and make something that looks completely different?

Lose the shackles, lose the mutilation, emphasize the feline-esque features maybe.

Maybe DE had a good reason, but right now it looks like they didn't really think it through and, as others have said, just wanted to avoid making a Prime version of Gersemi so people won't ignore spending plat on Gersemi (or in a slightly darker universe, in order to piss people off so they DO purchase Gersemi, earning that Moon Karma). As such they thought their only course was to base it off of Corpus Valkyr...MAYBE.

[Jeoxz]

My idea is that, ironically, Orokins were the first to torture Valkyr because she'd rebel or something (you know how Valkyr is), then when the Orokin died Valkyr Gersemi was born by healing Valkyr prime, and then the Corpus used similar techniques or technologies on that and reverted her back to normal rampaging Valkyr (and probably give her some PTSD on the way).

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

ballas trailer? hmm?

[injustible]

Did you prepare enough Orokin Cells to fund it? If not, then... (Don't whip me for the Hema joke, but it's a thing now.)

That aside, we're gonna get a new Prime Access before we get the video for this one(probably, seeing the way it's going), so don't worry bout it.

Edited January 6, 2017 by injustible

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 minutes ago, injustible said:

Did you prepare enough Orokin Cells to fund it? If not, then... (Don't whip me for the Hema joke, but it's a thing now.)

That aside, we're gonna get a new Prime Access before we get the video for this one, so don't worry bout it.

Just curious if anyone had any new info but yeah i get it. 

[321agemo]

Not yet. There might be more info when the next devstream comes out.

[Cubewano]

given they just came back from break i doubt there is much progress on that particular endeavor, but if there's any new on it you'll probably be hearing about it in tomorrows dev stream. 

[FireSegment]

13 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Jumping the theory gun when the valkyr lore trailer has not been released and the Prime being "corpus based" is subjective

actually, it's kinda a good time to put out this theory now, Cuz it's about to become hot discussion but it's not out yet (it wont make sense to post this topic after the trailer isnt it). We could have better contrast on what DE explain by consider different route they could have take (or worse, there still the possibility that they won't even touch it at all in the trailer, nova p came out with no explain before ....).I admit im kinda late for the party, but rather late than never.

12 hours ago, LuckySh0t501 said:

On Ash Prime there is inscribed in Orokin "Tenno Model 24N - Serial 147H". This suggests mass production of warframes. And it's logical, you would need a lot of us to fight the enemy of the Old War. Warframes are disposable. You trash one, you build another. As long as the pilot is ok...

Well .... yeah it's logical to say that vanila frames was "mass produce" because their design was simple, fit for industrial mass produce, nice catch on the series number there btw. However, i understand it as Orokin designed a lot of different primes, not copying frames to frames. like .. may be an Ash prime with number "Tenno Model 24N - Serial 2xxx" is still ash, but have no tail, baddasss one-hand blade, kind of a different in look. But mass produce or not wont really matter in this context anyway, we're here to talking about valkyr :3

 

Ok ... now to the part where i get salty

13 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Gersemi skin merely "primed" was never an option because that is a Deluxe skin and they were not going to give a shiny variant of it away for free. thats like making the Nyx Prime look like the Nemesis variant with gold parts

 

10 hours ago, Biter. said:

Yup. I don't get why people don't get that DE didn't base it on Gersemi to avoid upsetting people who paid plat for the Gersemi skin by releasing a better shiner version, even if it would've been more lore-friendly.

Guys ... how do i say this .... oh right, I DONT CARE ABOUT DE BUSINESS DECISION. In real life we already know DE f*ck up the lore for business since Nova prime, and i hate them for that. All i care and want talk is the lore, and the worst case scenario for me is a retcon, specially a stupid and unnecessary one.

 Gersemi, for it intend and purpose, is not suppose to be just a simple skin anymore after The Silver Groove Quest (or any other deluxe "skin"). It a separated and different frame, have a person within the warframe universe who designed it. (Yes, nova fit this pattern too but her lore don't interact with other NPC like valkyr lore - Alad V)

I would really happy if from now on we don't try to explain "why DE do this/that ...." on business side actions, and talking about from the lore perspective only, "DE" dont exist inside warframe universe. i dont want ignore any post for off topic honestly.

Edited January 6, 2017 by FireSegment

[ArcariusAero]

12 hours ago, Stoner74 said:

It does have restraints. 

The Gersemi skin, Aka original Valkyr, didn't have those gauntlets / restraints. Meaning she didn't need them to function. Meaning those are corpus restraints but primed by DE. 

Seriously, it's so obvious, how do you people not see that? 

I'm overly tired of explaining that over and over again. 

Try thinking about it from a different perspective for once.

Say, for example: Valkyr Prime was made with the gauntlets and fancystuffs she has on. Gersemi was later made, based upon that version but since it was made to be cheaper for the Tenno and easier to produce, they decided against keeping the boxy parts and such and instead made it more sleek and potentially aesthetically pleasing. Later on when Alad V was messing with Gersemi Valkyr, he either coincidentally or intentionally made Valkyr getting modified look more like the already existing and possibly seen by him once or twice but now hidden away prime version.

[SilvaDreams]

28 minutes ago, ArcariusAero said:

Try thinking about it from a different perspective for once.

Say, for example: Valkyr Prime was made with the gauntlets and fancystuffs she has on. Gersemi was later made, based upon that version but since it was made to be cheaper for the Tenno and easier to produce, they decided against keeping the boxy parts and such and instead made it more sleek and potentially aesthetically pleasing. Later on when Alad V was messing with Gersemi Valkyr, he either coincidentally or intentionally made Valkyr getting modified look more like the already existing and possibly seen by him once or twice but now hidden away prime version.

That and/or the Gersemi model Alad captured was a customized version, it's not like it would be far fetched as we do it constantly.

FashionFrame in lore... Time to blow some minds!

[Stoner]

54 minutes ago, ArcariusAero said:

Try thinking about it from a different perspective for once.

It's hard to see another perspective when the devs themselves said her prime had lore issues. And from that point, you know they messed up somewhere. 

Don't get me wrong, I see your point and understand it. You try to find a solution to the lore/design problems. That's fine. But with the lore they gave us in the past about Valk and primes in general, this is not how she was supposed to be. Her powers shouldn't be the same as the tortured Valkyr and no corpus restraints or whatsoever should be on her prime version.

Whatever you say, it doesn't change DE f****d up. And they will eventually make up something to hide their mistakes, sadly.