Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[LSG501]

OK... just had a thought as clearly some like the current bladestorm (not sure why if I'm honest....) and others like myself don't...

Clearly the dev's want to nerf frames to the point where we don't bother using certain abilities because their changes actually make it quicker to just shoot or melee them like any normal third person shooter type game without 'warframe abilities'. 

Seeing as the dev's clearly have no intention of taking any notice of the mostly negative feedback (we'd have at least had a reply or something you would have thought) can we at the very least get an augment which allows us to target a group of enemies in line of sight at a fixed cost rather than needing to target each individual target while they're getting killed by our team mates and as such wasting our time marking them.....  the new bladestorm is fine (if you ignore the energy requirements) if you're doing low level solo but put it in a group of players with high level enemies and team mates with high damage weapons such as soma prime or tigris, let alone an ember, it makes bladestorm redundant as by the time you've marked your enemies and triggered bladestorm again they've been killed by your team.

Actually writing that just gave me and idea of a potential rework.....although I still prefer my original idea of up to 18 line of sight targets, 3 attacks per target for a fixed cost of 100 like the old bladestorm..all while being able to cancel attack at any time by pressing 4 again. 

So th enew idea is marking targets is done automatically as a passive all the time via a larger pickup area with a single mark per target.  Pressing 4 instantly activates bladestorm rather than the marking mechanism like we have now.  Bladestorm does max of three attacks on each target and can stop attacks by pressing 4 again. 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Even though I said this already, I'm going to keep on saying this.I would keep bladestorm the way it was but with two changes; one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players and two if you don`t want to see the animation press four again and you run around while the clones kill things, so the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not, that`s just common sense and it solves the problem we have with bs now.

[Calvyr]

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

OK... just had a thought as clearly some like the current bladestorm (not sure why if I'm honest....) and others like myself don't...

Clearly the dev's want to nerf frames to the point where we don't bother using certain abilities because their changes actually make it quicker to just shoot or melee them like any normal third person shooter type game without 'warframe abilities'. 

Seeing as the dev's clearly have no intention of taking any notice of the mostly negative feedback (we'd have at least had a reply or something you would have thought) can we at the very least get an augment which allows us to target a group of enemies in line of sight at a fixed cost rather than needing to target each individual target while they're getting killed by our team mates and as such wasting our time marking them.....  the new bladestorm is fine (if you ignore the energy requirements) if you're doing low level solo but put it in a group of players with high level enemies and team mates with high damage weapons such as soma prime or tigris, let alone an ember, it makes bladestorm redundant as by the time you've marked your enemies and triggered bladestorm again they've been killed by your team.

Actually writing that just gave me and idea of a potential rework.....although I still prefer my original idea of up to 18 line of sight targets, 3 attacks per target for a fixed cost of 100 like the old bladestorm..all while being able to cancel attack at any time by pressing 4 again. 

So th enew idea is marking targets is done automatically as a passive all the time via a larger pickup area with a single mark per target.  Pressing 4 instantly activates bladestorm rather than the marking mechanism like we have now.  Bladestorm does max of three attacks on each target and can stop attacks by pressing 4 again. 

Why would they rework a frame, or more specifically an ability, to get away from a particular playstyle, then make an augment that does exactly what they were trying to rework in the first place? That is a ridiculous idea. I won't bother going into how absurd it is to think that the devs are trying to get players to avoid using certain abilities completely; using them less, yes, but not avoiding them completely. If anything, they're trying to get players to use more abilities and stop the "press 4 to win" playstyle.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Calvyr

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

11 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

Why would they rework a frame, or more specifically an ability, to get away from a particular playstyle, then make an augment that does exactly what they were trying to rework in the first place?

What playstyle? YES TRYING to rework is accurate, and they failed at it, instead they nerfed it into the ground. Ashs new 4 is broken and pointless. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Calvyr]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

What play style? YES TRYING to rework is accurate, and they failed at it, instead they nerfed it into the ground. Ashs new 4 is broken and poinless. 

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but what Bladestorm was before the rework was not a play style, true. (I think that's what you meant?) Pressing a single button to kill everything in a room is not a style.

I've used the new Bladestorm a fair amount in the last few days and find it neither broken, nor pointless. It's more interactive and therefore more fun to use. I barely used Bladestorm before the rework because it seemed pretty pointless to just press a button and kill everything in a room. This is the same reason that I don't play Ember with a World on Fire Build, or Banshee's Soundquake; it's just not fun to press a single button and have everything die. I really don't see the point of that.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Calvyr

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

10 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

I've used it a fair amount in the last few days and find it neither broken, nor pointless. It's more interactive and therefore more fun to use. I barely used Bladestorm before the rework because it seemed pretty pointless to just press a button and kill everything in a room. This is the same reason that I don't play Ember with a World on Fire Build, or Banshee's Soundquake; it's just not fun to press a single button and have everything die. I really don't see the point of that.

then u dont use Ashs 3? This is a horde game,  what are u even talking about? So u handicap yourself and excpect others todo the same?! This IS NOT a strategy based dark souls rpg LOL...What frame doesnt have a "press 4 to win" if modded right? The new BS is broken, doesn't make sense to use it ever. Stop defending obvious laziness that completely contradicts what steve said about getting rid of the "screen popping". You dont know what your talking about.

Edited December 12, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Calvyr]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

then u dont use Ashs 3, this is a horde game what are u even saying? What frame doesnt have a "press 4 to win" if modded right? The new BS is broken, doesn't make sense to use it ever. 

I actually use Fatal Teleport as much or more than I use Bladestorm. I actually use my brain and decide, "do I want to kill one enemy or several?" If the answer is that I want to kill a single enemy and end up where they are, I use Fatal Teleport; but if I want to kill several enemies and end up where I started, I use Bladestorm. Maybe I want to kill a single enemy and come back to where I was, again I can use Bladestorm to accomplish that.

There are very few frames that have a "press 4 to win" ability. I named a couple of them, being Ember and Banshee, and I'm looking forward to DE taking a look at those frames and making changes to them. Equinox is another to an extent, and one might be able to argue Nova is another example but M-Prime doesn't actually kill everything, just makes everything easier to kill.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

9 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

I've used it a fair amount in the last few days and find it neither broken, nor pointless. It's more interactive and therefore more fun to use. I barely used Bladestorm before the rework because it seemed pretty pointless to just press a button and kill everything in a room. This is the same reason that I don't play Ember with a World on Fire Build, or Banshee's Soundquake; it's just not fun to press a single button and have everything die. I really don't see the point of that.

I can answer that. The point is if you want to quickly finish a mission e.g ext, def then Ash (use to) ember and banshee`s 4th can do that, but the way ash`s bs it now the mission will take longer now which ticks me the heck off! KMT SMDH

[Calvyr]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I can answer that. The point is if you want to quickly finish a mission e.g ext, def then Ash (use to) ember and banshee`s 4th can do that, but the way ash`s bs it now the mission will take longer now which ticks me the heck off! KMT SMDH

I'm sorry that you have to waste your time by actually playing the game now. You're right, DE should just hand all the good stuff to all of us and stop making us actually do something for our shinies.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

2 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

I'm sorry that you have to waste your time by actually playing the game now. You're right, DE should just hand all the good stuff to all of us and stop making us actually do something for our shinies.

Let`s call it what it is. some people just want to do a mission as quick as possible e.g. sortie def, people have actually have done this more than once.

[Calvyr]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Let`s call it what it is. some people are lazy and just want their shinies with little to no effort.

Fixed this for you.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Just now, Calvyr said:

Fixed this for you.

Maybe because their mum say you got ten mins before bed, maybe you want do it quick because catch the nitain alert mission that came up while you are in the mission that your in. You see what I did there? I came up with different scenarios where people would do this. :)

[Calvyr]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Maybe because their mum say you got ten mins before bed, maybe you want do it quick because catch the nitain alert mission that came up while you are in the mission that your in. You see what I did there? I came up with different scenarios where people would do this. :)

Those may be occasional situations, but I'm sure they aren't the norm. Also, your example of the Nitain alert doesn't really work because you'd already be in the mission when the alert popped up, meaning that you had already chosen the frame before the mission started. And if the alert just popped up, you have an hour to catch it before it expires, and as long as you start the mission before it expires, you'll get credit for it. The overwhelming reason that people like "press 4 to win" abilities is that they easy and require little to no effort or thought.

[LSG501]

57 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

Why would they rework a frame, or more specifically an ability, to get away from a particular playstyle, then make an augment that does exactly what they were trying to rework in the first place? That is a ridiculous idea. I won't bother going into how absurd it is to think that the devs are trying to get players to avoid using certain abilities completely; using them less, yes, but not avoiding them completely. If anything, they're trying to get players to use more abilities and stop the "press 4 to win" playstyle.

Because the current marking system doesn't work in the co-op side of the game when playing with other players with powerful weapons and frames..... Also most people didn't want interactivity to be marking the targets they wanted interactivity in as much as not being locked into the animation sequence, something that is still a problem.  

You make out that the current rework has actually made bladestorm better, it may be ok for you in solo missions but it's completely pointless for most of us in missions with other players... it has stupidly high energy requirements, higher than pretty much any other frame (banshee might be higher with resonating soundquake) and the time it takes to mark targets (not to mention the motion sickness side of things for some people) means it's quicker in most cases to just shoot them or melee them assuming you've actually got any targets left...  whats the point in an ultimate ability that can't be used or is slower than actually just shooting them.   Note I've been on BOTH sides of this, I've played ash and had ALL my targets killed in the time it took to mark half a dozen targets and I've taken targets away from ash so they had no targets to attack... this was not a low level either. 

The simple fact about this game is that it isn't designed to allow the time to do slow action abilities like marking things first when in a team, it requires an element of auto targetting, even mesa's peacemaker rework has an element of auto targetting involved. 

[Aktriaz]

I've never been a big fan of Ash, despite really wanting to like him. His first 3 abilities have always been either less-specialized versions of others (Smoke Screen < Loki's Invisibility), difficult to use and/or very situational (Teleport), just not really worth it in higher levels (Shuriken, especially now that it is inferior in cost AND damage to Bladestorm), or just plain boring (Bladestorm; less so now, but still boring none the less).

Now, I will continue to the rework.

#1, Shuriken

Really, all Shuriken needs is a little bit of utility to compensate. And for that, I'll take a page out of traditional Ninjas; who used Shurikens as deterrents or distractions, and turn it offensive; Shuriken now staggers the foes it hits, and prompts finishers. Other than that addition, nothing else will change, including the Augment.

#2, Smoke Screen

Instead of trying to beat the dead horse of trying to make it compete with Loki's invisibility, I'm going to make it do something else.
Smoke Screen now creates a screen of smoke (lolwut) that lasts for 6/10/14/18 seconds, and has a range of 7/10/13/16m. Energy cost is increased to 50. Enemies who are within the Smokescreen are blinded (but NOT vulnerable to finishers) and Ash and his allies are rendered invisible while inside. This invisibility also remains when leaving the radius for 2/4/6/8 seconds (identical to original smokescreen).

Smoke Screen's Augment will now prompt finishers on enemies within it's radius.

#3, Teleport

Frankly, the only gripe I have with this ability is it's difficulty to use. Other than that I like how it works and it's my favorite skill in Ash's kit on aesthetics alone.

Teleport still teleports towards a target, but causes a finisher on enemies without the augment, but now uses Bladestorm's animation (so that it may be used on any target), but still uses Melee damage and mods.

The Augment will be replaced with Covert Teleport; which will give 4 seconds of invisiblity (affected by mods) if the target is killed. Also, the target will be disintegrated on kill.

#4, Bladestorm

Now this is a tricky one. People's biggest gripe with this ability was that it was a "press 4, make a sandwich" ability. It was brain-meltingly easy to use, and painful to sit though for the 700th time. I agree with what the rework was trying to do, giving bladestorm more involvement with the player and synergy with his kit, but I say it was poorly done. We went from "Aim at enemy, press 4, win" to "Press 4, flail mouse/joystick around madly, press 4 again", with both options forcing the player to sit through those tiresome animations.

What I'm going to suggest is what I would like for bladestorm. So, without further adieu, here's how I would change Bladestorm.

Bladestorm is now a single-cast, 100 energy ability again. Bladestorm has a range of 5/10/15/20m (radius), and deals 750/1000/1250/1500 finisher damage, plus bleed proc. When activated, Ash will change into a cloud of Smoke, unable to attack or be damaged for the duration of the ability. He can move at half speed across the ground during. Up to 10 enemies (affected by Duration) will be marked and attacked by by Ash's clones in an identical manner to old Bladestorm. Enemies within Smoke Screen will take double damage, up to 3000 unmodded. When the clones are done attacking, Ash will return to his normal state.

--------------------------------

I really want to like Ash. But I can't help but feel like I'm a burden in a group using him; mostly because that's how I feel about other Ash's in groups.

With this rework I hope to address the issues has always had, and still has. Though, I have little faith such a drastic rework would happen right after his most recent one.

Please be civil and constructive. I am open to criticism.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Because the current marking system doesn't work in the co-op side of the game when playing with other players with powerful weapons and frames..... Also most people didn't want interactivity to be marking the targets they wanted interactivity in as much as not being locked into the animation sequence, something that is still a problem.  

You make out that the current rework has actually made bladestorm better, it may be ok for you in solo missions but it's completely pointless for most of us in missions with other players... it has stupidly high energy requirements, higher than pretty much any other frame (banshee might be higher with resonating soundquake) and the time it takes to mark targets (not to mention the motion sickness side of things for some people) means it's quicker in most cases to just shoot them or melee them assuming you've actually got any targets left...  whats the point in an ultimate ability that can't be used or is slower than actually just shooting them.   Note I've been on BOTH sides of this, I've played ash and had ALL my targets killed in the time it took to mark half a dozen targets and I've taken targets away from ash so they had no targets to attack... this was not a low level either. 

The simple fact about this game is that it isn't designed to allow the time to do slow action abilities like marking things first when in a team, it requires an element of auto targetting, even mesa's peacemaker rework has an element of auto targetting involved. 

Thank you for saying this!

[tedbearr]

I like the smokescreen idea it makes more sense than what we have now

[Calvyr]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Because the current marking system doesn't work in the co-op side of the game when playing with other players with powerful weapons and frames..... Also most people didn't want interactivity to be marking the targets they wanted interactivity in as much as not being locked into the animation sequence, something that is still a problem.  

You make out that the current rework has actually made bladestorm better, it may be ok for you in solo missions but it's completely pointless for most of us in missions with other players... it has stupidly high energy requirements, higher than pretty much any other frame (banshee might be higher with resonating soundquake) and the time it takes to mark targets (not to mention the motion sickness side of things for some people) means it's quicker in most cases to just shoot them or melee them assuming you've actually got any targets left...  whats the point in an ultimate ability that can't be used or is slower than actually just shooting them.   Note I've been on BOTH sides of this, I've played ash and had ALL my targets killed in the time it took to mark half a dozen targets and I've taken targets away from ash so they had no targets to attack... this was not a low level either. 

The simple fact about this game is that it isn't designed to allow the time to do slow action abilities like marking things first when in a team, it requires an element of auto targetting, even mesa's peacemaker rework has an element of auto targetting involved. 

I won't deny that the reworked Bladestorm isn't perfect, but I think it's far better than the old one was. Having "an element" of autotargeting is one thing, but the old Bladestorm was far more than "an element". They can definitely do more to make it more interactive and group friendly, but I think this is a good start.

[Wolfglaive]

Smokescreen idea is exactly what I want to see. I'd like synergies between his powers though. Like, throwing a Shuriken allows you to shadow-step directly to the end point of that throw next time teleport is used, whether it's in LoS or not. Stuff that's useful, but not required to use 'em for him to be "good". 

[LSG501]

17 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

I won't deny that the reworked Bladestorm isn't perfect, but I think it's far better than the old one was. Having "an element" of autotargeting is one thing, but the old Bladestorm was far more than "an element". They can definitely do more to make it more interactive and group friendly, but I think this is a good start.

That's why I said I preferred my original suggestion over the one picked out specifically. 

To me the rework should have been a line of sight adjustment (bit like mesa peacemaker) to the old bladestorm and wouldn't attack through walls like it was psychic.  This would still give that element of 'interactivity' that marking has without the need to mark everything first (major issue in fast moving game).  You could even incorporate a bit of equinox's rest into the idea by limiting the distance between targets too so it will only target another enemy if it's within x metres of the previous target.

It would trigger at most 18 units (could be lowered a bit if necessary) for a single cost (removes one of the main complaints of the rework) and only attack each target 3 times (removes getting stuck in animation sequence).  It would also gain the ability to stop the animation sequence (can be annoying that you can't just stop mid animation) and attacking targets by pressing 4 again during the attack getting a partial refund.  Also suggested linking damage to melee weapon to compensate for the loss of 'auto kill' on targets at higher levels. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by LSG501

[(PSN)R-Zab__v2]

The rework is great. Thanks guys

[raziel16985]

first, as always, thanks to the Devs for all the effort and work! :)

 

after some days to let the changes sink in, i have to say with adding a smoke screen synergy and mobility buff, the direction and intension of Devs is the right one and ash has improved in my opinion.

but there is still room for more skill synergy i think, and Devs are struggeling with bladestorm for so long, perhaps its better to try sonething new ^^ . now that you have to aim for the 4 it feels like one of skill 3 and 4 is redundant. you could pack those two into one skill, like the combo timer of valkyr's whip or rhinos charge, and hop from enemy to enemy, or a single tap for one teleport and to mark enemies you have to hold and release the button perhaps.

since his change i realy love to play with excalibur. i personaly would like the idea of ash drawing his wrist blades on 4, get some new synergys/features on his other 3 skills, and his own fighting stance like valkyr and excalibur. valkyr has her better survivability, excalibur the energy blades, there are enough possibilitys to give ash his own unique bonus i think  :)

 

thanks for reading, and i didnt had the time to read all the other great suggestions, so if i copied someone im sorry :)

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by raziel16985

[Nazrethim]

Shuriken just needs one tweak to make it good:
 Work off the Combo Counter, each shuriken adding one hit to it and getting the damage buff from it.

[UrielColtan]

^Nah, its not the right direction until the automation is gone, and few are divided by Exalted Blade, most people like that concept as Excalibur's new ult. The only arguments are over nerfs it got. Speaking of Exalted, this is a similar direction Ash's ultimate should have taken to make it more interactive.as pointed out in prior comments. That would be the right direction .

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

22 hours ago, Calvyr said:

I actually use Fatal Teleport as much or more than I use Bladestorm. I actually use my brain and decide, "do I want to kill one enemy or several?" If the answer is that I want to kill a single enemy and end up where they are, I use Fatal Teleport; but if I want to kill several enemies and end up where I started, I use Bladestorm. Maybe I want to kill a single enemy and come back to where I was, again I can use Bladestorm to accomplish that.

There are very few frames that have a "press 4 to win" ability. I named a couple of them, being Ember and Banshee, and I'm looking forward to DE taking a look at those frames and making changes to them. Equinox is another to an extent, and one might be able to argue Nova is another example but M-Prime doesn't actually kill everything, just makes everything easier to kill.

Look at the jokers still acting like pointing the reticle is some Machiavellian achievement.  It's not, it's just a low effort attempt to spin painting the fence as being something quality and unique, Tom Sawyer style. Pointing the reticle is no more brain power than pointing your weapon to shoot(Typically taking less time.) or doing Mesa's Peacemaker minigame(One move that I wish to also get looked at, particularly the annoying feature of having to stand in place.), and marking targets one by one is just slow for a move that can already be lengthy from having to sit through the time wasting cutscenes, and because pure damage does not scale nearly as well as utility. No other AoE in the game requires marking each target and at this cost. I'm sure you would love that though. No moves should exist to cover our blindsides anymore. 

I'm doubtful you truly feel that way, likely just another guy who did not really play Ash and thus, do not care that they just nerfed him while keeping the real problem he had. "I don't care, not my main." 

Edited December 12, 2016 by UrielColtan