Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

1 hour ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

The problem with ash is that his 4 is insanely boring. How about no cutscenes? Give him some interactivity.

a qte during the cutscene?

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

10 hours ago, malekas said:

Ash was one of those frames that had a good kit, but had one ability that was so OP that no one even looked at the rest of his kit. 

 

Try increasing his duration, keeping his range at 100%, and using Fatal Teleport. You can still mass murder very easily, it just takes more than one button now.

And Fatal Teleport is good for mass murder how exactly? So many frames do the mass murder better, faster and they aren't even 'killframes'

Inaros is a tank and pocketsand + CL Dagger is faster then Fatal Teleport's animation. Ow he can also have a doggy with 10k HP that helps with the slaughter. Add 2x arcane grace to that plus lets say shadow step and you pretty much have an invisible tank frame that kills better than Ash ever will. This guy walks through nullies as he would walk through a park.

Nekros is a tank/support frame and with a proper build and shadow step even he murders faster then Ash and has a scaling damage ability to boot.

Frost is Tank/Support and with zenurik and a decent melee he avalanches a tile to death.

Chroma is Tank/Support, Arcane Grace, Traumatic redirection Vex armor and an Ignis melts tiles.

Ember, Damage, Arcane energize, shadowstep, WOF  Melts tiles. (Bring a huras if you want more stealth while WOF melts everything)

Mirage, Damage Frame, Hall of mirrors, Synoid Simulor melts tiles.

The above list goes on in terms of 1 or maybe 2 ability spamming nuke frames......... ( FYI Fatal teleport DOES require 1 button)

 

Now Ash,

Shuriken is tedious, has low dmg and is slow albeit its fancy homing.

Smoke Screen is nice but bested by shadow step and needs serious duration which results in dropping power strength/range/efficiency.

Teleport is only good with fatal augment, is slow and a menace to aim with a controller compared to a mouse. (Gorgeous on juggernauts and bombards but a royal pain on stairs)

New BS is worse than Old BS except with the feeding of your epileptic requirements. It does that rather well.

 

Please enlighten me as to how the rest of Ash's kit has suddenly become more viable especially in comparison with some of the above frames?? 

Ash was a proper 'killframe' and is now placed in the trash. Even the 2 arcane trickeries procc less now due to Ash often not delivering the final blow. 

 

[ChuckMaverick]

On 07/04/2017 at 7:37 PM, Nazrethim said:

Blade Storm already scales indefinetly with a bit of effort (unlike Limboom) because it's damage is affected by the COmbo counter and Steel Charge aura. Ash is a melee oriented frame, never forget that.

Although Bladestorm ignores armour scaling (because finisher damage), combo counter scaling starts to fall off against enemy health scaling due to diminishing returns.

In contrast, 'Limboom' is affected by armour scaling (unless 4xCP), but its damage scales linearly with enemy health.

The difference is situational, and not obviously in favour of one or the other.

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

14 hours ago, Djego27 said:

While I agree that it does not make much sense as AOE nuke it is still a very strong scaling fame without even pressing 4. 

The animation on his 4 is kind of a trade off for damage(that is still sufficient to take out targets at sorti levels) and the ability to escape death by it. What you describe is more or less Ember, with a passive AOE damage(negotiable, even if it is one of the strongest scaling 4 in the game for raw damage if you stack power strength and use accerlerant) and CC(actually quite good at any level, assuming 200% ish power strength in combination with a fire status weapon you will revive that tank frames in sortis instead the other way around) while using accelerant to give your weapons incredible punch and weapons to negate certain mechanics like armor scaling(what ash comes with out of the box).

For me Ash was and still is enjoyable to play, because armor ignore is incredible powerful and outside of defending other people he is the much more powerful stealth frame then Loki because he is pre-emptive, while what you do with Loki is reacting to situations that you can not prevent with your abilities or weapons(like mass switch teleporting stuff out of a snow globe a thigh levels if things go wrong on the Banshee player end). Keep in mind that this is still not weak, since I could in the original Phoenix interception(L150 grenier heavy blade only interception) prevent any enemy from taking points or get to close to the team in the snow globe in the middle of the map by switch teleporting them to spots where they will be no problem.

From my pov, DE should have given the armor strip ability build into his one(make a augment a glaive like bounce between targets), his 2 should have 1-2 more seconds base duration and the augment should have useful range(like 20m at base) and the augment for Teleport should give all weapons CL ability what means you can again use a melee weapon you really like instead to being forced to using a dagger.

I'm sorry why exactly would you switch teleport mobs out of a snow globe at any level? Snow globe's recast does that for you....

And loki can prevent a load of nasty situations with zenurik, irradiating disarm and perma invis.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Although Bladestorm ignores armour scaling (because finisher damage), combo counter scaling starts to fall off against enemy health scaling due to diminishing returns.

In contrast, 'Limboom' is affected by armour scaling (unless 4xCP), but its damage scales linearly with enemy health.

The difference is situational, and not obviously in favour of one or the other.

That was a jab at how Limbo is a zero effort kill-everything nuker now while Ash got slapped with a sh*tty seizure marking and a ludicrous energy cost.

Ash needs a rework proper that boosts his kill potential without being a nuker, without removing BS animations or the marking mechanic all the while being interactive and having synergy with his abilities. A juggling act that after a whole year of reading suggestions from different people, making my own, and rethinking everything I come to the conclusion will only be solved by a properly implemented stance ultimate that combos with his abilities.

[Rivers-fanclub-]

Lets "rework" Ash, boosting his stealth abilities while nerfing the only good skill he has, also...

Lets buff Limbo so he can kill the entire map in one button.

 

Now thats balance right there 

[Nazrethim]

47 minutes ago, Rivers-fanclub- said:

Lets "rework" Ash, boosting his stealth abilities while nerfing the only good skill he has, also...

Lets buff Limbo so he can kill the entire map in one button.

 

Now thats balance right there 

Indeed, and they spent only like 4 months with Limbo, meanwhile Ash's "revisit" took a whole damn year, complete with countless threads pointing out a marking mechanic would s**k and be a straight nerf and countless others providing workable rework ideas that actually fixed the frame's issues.

[Djego27]

On 10.4.2017 at 1:36 PM, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

I'm sorry why exactly would you switch teleport mobs out of a snow globe at any level? Snow globe's recast does that for you....

And loki can prevent a load of nasty situations with zenurik, irradiating disarm and perma invis.

There was actually a time where this was not in the game and frost could not be in any snow globe at once, if you used multiple for CC in stuff like the phoenix interception event. A well played Loki is very useful, nobody denies that. However all what you see in most public games and even recruited ones are people that do not even know that the frame got more than a 2 button(similar to rino). Does not matter if you see them in L100 sorti or a L1 alert.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Djego27

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

12 hours ago, Djego27 said:

There was actually a time where this was not in the game and frost could not be in any snow globe at once, if you used multiple for CC in stuff like the phoenix interception event. A well played Loki is very useful, nobody denies that. However all what you see in most public games and even recruited ones are people that do not even know that the frame got more than a 2 button(similar to rino). Does not matter if you see them in L100 sorti or a L1 alert.

As you posted that recently, I thought you may have not been aware of the 'new' snow globe mechanics. I still however fail to see how Ash is a more powerful stealth frame compared to Loki. Ash has no hard CC, a stupendously short invis, a shuriken that needs spamming on anything over lvl 40 and a BS with a 'spin to win' mechanic added to it. Loki has crazy long invis, a Decoy, and arguably the most powerful CC ability in the game. His CC with irradiating augment completely outshines Nyx Chaos and ofc he also teleports........

To top it all off, Loki is fast as F*** and Ash moves like a snail. Ninja's shouldn't move like snails. Ash's only mobility lies in Teleport / Fatal teleport and fun as it is, the animation takes long and targeting on a controller is considerably harder then with a mouse.

The new BS needs dumb amounts of energy per mark and thus Zenurik is a must.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

As you posted that recently, I thought you may have not been aware of the 'new' snow globe mechanics. I still however fail to see how Ash is a more powerful stealth frame compared to Loki. Ash has no hard CC, a stupendously short invis, a shuriken that needs spamming on anything over lvl 40 and a BS with a 'spin to win' mechanic added to it. Loki has crazy long invis, a Decoy, and arguably the most powerful CC ability in the game. His CC with irradiating augment completely outshines Nyx Chaos and ofc he also teleports........

To top it all off, Loki is fast as F*** and Ash moves like a snail. Ninja's shouldn't move like snails. Ash's only mobility lies in Teleport / Fatal teleport and fun as it is, the animation takes long and targeting on a controller is considerably harder then with a mouse.

The new BS needs dumb amounts of energy per mark and thus Zenurik is a must.

I run melee naramon ash .... it's compliments the bladestorm and if I really wanted to I'll put dispatch overdrive on my weapon to gain speed as I kill that being said Loki has better abilities but ash is a better killer .... especially with his augments 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

As you posted that recently, I thought you may have not been aware of the 'new' snow globe mechanics. I still however fail to see how Ash is a more powerful stealth frame compared to Loki. Ash has no hard CC, a stupendously short invis, a shuriken that needs spamming on anything over lvl 40 and a BS with a 'spin to win' mechanic added to it. Loki has crazy long invis, a Decoy, and arguably the most powerful CC ability in the game. His CC with irradiating augment completely outshines Nyx Chaos and ofc he also teleports........

To top it all off, Loki is fast as F*** and Ash moves like a snail. Ninja's shouldn't move like snails. Ash's only mobility lies in Teleport / Fatal teleport and fun as it is, the animation takes long and targeting on a controller is considerably harder then with a mouse.

The new BS needs dumb amounts of energy per mark and thus Zenurik is a must.

Honestly ash is more of a brawler/assassin frame, due to the fact that his whole kit/builds encourage scaling dmg, plus I actually like killing enemies with my abilities. Loki's decoy can't survive any thing above lvl 50 most of the time, his invisible is long because compared to ash. Loki has wet paper ehp and he will die from a stray bullet or AOE in high level missions, switch teleport isn't really useful outside of spy vaults, and you got loki's infinite scaling cc ability, radiant disarm. Disarming enemies is really helpful in high level content however they will still attack you even with it's augment. I mean ash's abilities by themselves isn't anything special, but holy crap his augments can make any mission on any level a walk in the park.

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Honestly ash is more of a brawler/assassin frame, due to the fact that his whole kit/builds encourage scaling dmg, plus I actually like killing enemies with my abilities. Loki's decoy can't survive any thing above lvl 50 most of the time, his invisible is long because compared to ash. Loki has wet paper ehp and he will die from a stray bullet or AOE in high level missions, switch teleport isn't really useful outside of spy vaults, and you got loki's infinite scaling cc ability, radiant disarm. Disarming enemies is really helpful in high level content however they will still attack you even with it's augment. I mean ash's abilities by themselves isn't anything special, but holy crap his augments can make any mission on any level a walk in the park.

EHP for loki is an easy fix with QT + Primed flow. And Ash can't run Redirection or Vitality if you want a viable damage build either.

As for Ash's augments that make high level content a walk in the park, Rising storm is useless as blood rush and body count are staple on any melee. Smoke shadow ally invis for 8 sec does nothing for Ash, Seeking Shuriken does strip armor and turns you into a 1 spammer instead of 4 and then Fatal Teleport which is basically the only good augment he has. IMO FT shouldn't have been an augment but included in the actual ability to begin with.

Just because Ash does finisher damage doesn't mean his damage scales. Only FT with a  CL dagger can do that. That setup goes for any frame that has a skill that opens up finishers like Inaros's pocketsand. (Which does it faster then FT and Inaros is a bloody tank)

The old BS was not too good but better then the 'new' BS

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

EHP for loki is an easy fix with QT + Primed flow. And Ash can't run Redirection or Vitality if you want a viable damage build either.

As for Ash's augments that make high level content a walk in the park, Rising storm is useless as blood rush and body count are staple on any melee. Smoke shadow ally invis for 8 sec does nothing for Ash, Seeking Shuriken does strip armor and turns you into a 1 spammer instead of 4 and then Fatal Teleport which is basically the only good augment he has. IMO FT shouldn't have been an augment but included in the actual ability to begin with.

Just because Ash does finisher damage doesn't mean his damage scales. Only FT with a  CL dagger can do that. That setup goes for any frame that has a skill that opens up finishers like Inaros's pocketsand. (Which does it faster then FT and Inaros is a bloody tank)

The old BS was not too good but better then the 'new' BS

Bladestorm and teleport/fatal teleport scales off of your combo multiplier, which means that even an bladestorm without power strength can and will hit like a truck on any thing that is below lvl 200 with or without armor just by having body count equipped to your melee, same with fatal teleport that can potentially deal half a million finisher damage without having CL. So yes, you can use redirection or/vitality, hell call me crazy but I have redirection, vitality, and primed vigor on my ash prime(why not?)which adds up to 1200 shield and 1440 health and my ash can still kill lvl 100+ heavy Gunners and bombards/napalms with bladestorm and fatal teleport.

Also there are so many ways to get energy in warframe that having problems with energy is usually a new player problem. also when I said scaling, I meant soft scaling, like nidus and his mark, his 1 increase in damage with more marks he has however they have a limit of how far they can scale same with ash's 3-4 with the melee combo multiplier. Most of the time your going to play content below lvl 150 anyway.

Edited April 11, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[Nazrethim]

Remember that something may work, but still be badly designed

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Also there are so many ways to get energy in warframe that having problems with energy is usually a new player problem.

Because forcing players to use FULL efficiency and a specific set of arcanes/focus just to mitigate an unfair energy drain, in a game about customized characters, is a good thing.

Also, nobody seems to mention that, while his abiltiies kinda work in PvE, in Conclave are either 'So sh*tty as to be pointless' or 'So sh*tty as to be almost pointless' due to how gimped they are. In fact, Ash has only TWO good things there: A Nikana-ONLY passive that is useful and the ability to dedicate his entire energy pool to channeling due to abilities being several degrees of useless. Problem in, in their current incarnation they can't possibly be buffed without making them broken, so a rework is the only option.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Bladestorm and teleport/fatal teleport scales off of your combo multiplier, which means that even an bladestorm without power strength can and will hit like a truck on any thing that is below lvl 200 with or without armor just by having body count equipped to your melee, same with fatal teleport that can potentially deal half a million finisher damage without having CL. So yes, you can use redirection or/vitality, hell call me crazy but I have redirection, vitality, and primed vigor on my ash prime(why not?)which adds up to 1200 shield and 1440 health and my ash can still kill lvl 100+ heavy Gunners and bombards/napalms with bladestorm and fatal teleport.

Also there are so many ways to get energy in warframe that having problems with energy is usually a new player problem. also when I said scaling, I meant soft scaling, like nidus and his mark, his 1 increase in damage with more marks he has however they have a limit of how far they can scale same with ash's 3-4 with the melee combo multiplier. Most of the time your going to play content below lvl 150 anyway.

Just because it scales off of the combo multiplier, doesn't mean he is doing any 'hitting like a truck' The prerequisite to rack up your multiplier to do significant damage on an ultimate ability is a prerequisite only for Ash. None of the other frames ultimates require this. And yes I can kill lvl 100 gunners and bombards with BS but I need to spam BS in order to do so and not 1 single cast. Ergo Fatal Teleport is just better at that level. Not to mention that trickery stops working at lvl 100 as in BS, Ash doesn't deliver the final blow but his shadows do.

BS is slow, costly and with mediocre damage at best. AOE weapons enhanced with warframe buffs are the thing that  'hit like a truck' My bleed build Tirgris Prime one shots a lvl 145 bombard. A thing only Fatal teleport will do but certainly not the new BS.My Chroma with 600% dmg increase with either an Ignis or a Simulor melts the tile before you kick off a proper BS. There are so many examples of frames / combination  that kill better and faster than Ash.

And as for your energy cost, simply compare it to what other frames pay in energy and how fast they can turn that energy into damage on the field. BS energy cost vs result is bad return of investment...

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

3 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

I run melee naramon ash .... it's compliments the bladestorm and if I really wanted to I'll put dispatch overdrive on my weapon to gain speed as I kill that being said Loki has better abilities but ash is a better killer .... especially with his augments 

Please name me the build you use on your Ash. I'll try a Naramon setup after work. 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

2 hours ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Please name me the build you use on your Ash. I'll try a Naramon setup after work. 

 Steel charge for aura 

rush for exilus ( change to cunning drift if you want a Lil more range ) 

fleet expertise rank 4 

maxed streamline 

stretch 

vitality 

seeking shuriken ( I never use teleport that much ) 

transient fortutude 

and intensify 

seeking shuriken armor debuff works better for my gameplay 

and for the melee weapon get a slash based one ( cause Armor sucks ) 

put primed fury 

life strike  

primed pressure point 

primed reach 

blood rush and body count 

berserker 

and jagged edge 

and of course naramon for the perma invisibility 

i also have 2 maxed arcane trickerys on my ash ( still procs a lot too ) 

this turns ash into a melee ( as like most frames under naramon ) using bladestorm to take out 1 mob and than melee another 

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

 Steel charge for aura 

rush for exilus ( change to cunning drift if you want a Lil more range ) 

fleet expertise rank 4 

maxed streamline 

stretch 

vitality 

seeking shuriken ( I never use teleport that much ) 

transient fortutude 

and intensify 

seeking shuriken armor debuff works better for my gameplay 

and for the melee weapon get a slash based one ( cause Armor sucks ) 

put primed fury 

life strike  

primed pressure point 

primed reach 

blood rush and body count 

berserker 

and jagged edge 

and of course naramon for the perma invisibility 

i also have 2 maxed arcane trickerys on my ash ( still procs a lot too ) 

this turns ash into a melee ( as like most frames under naramon ) using bladestorm to take out 1 mob and than melee another 

Thank you for this.

You do not use true steel to get your melee crit chance up in order for shadow step procc?

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Thank you for this.

You do not use true steel to get your melee crit chance up in order for shadow step procc?

Blood rush does that with combo counter cause after the 1.5x counter every hit would be a crit  ...

Edited April 11, 2017 by (PS4)kingbrown2012

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Blood rush does that with combo counter cause after the 1.5x counter every hit would be a crit  ...

Warframe Builder calculates the 100% crit chance at 3.5 multiplier..

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Warframe Builder calculates the 100% crit chance at 3.5 multiplier..

Imma add you on PSn and we will run a couple missions cause I always be perma invisible after 5 hits 

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

1 hour ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Imma add you on PSn and we will run a couple missions cause I always be perma invisible after 5 hits 

Cool thx

 

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Warframe Builder calculates the 100% crit chance at 3.5 multiplier..

At 3.5 is when Blood Rush hits the "red zone" (when every attack is a redcrit). You can reach it at 3x if you have True Steel equiped. Naramon would be proc'ing from yellow crits so by 2.5x you are perma invi.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

 Steel charge for aura 

rush for exilus ( change to cunning drift if you want a Lil more range ) 

fleet expertise rank 4 

maxed streamline 

stretch 

vitality 

seeking shuriken ( I never use teleport that much ) 

transient fortutude 

and intensify 

seeking shuriken armor debuff works better for my gameplay 

I would switch intensify (as Ash hits hard enough IMO) for Rage, to get constant energy.

2 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

and for the melee weapon get a slash based one ( cause Armor sucks ) 

put primed fury 

life strike  

primed pressure point 

primed reach 

blood rush and body count 

berserker 

and jagged edge 

and of course naramon for the perma invisibility 

i also have 2 maxed arcane trickerys on my ash ( still procs a lot too ) 

this turns ash into a melee ( as like most frames under naramon ) using bladestorm to take out 1 mob and than melee another 

Depending on weapon Berserker is pointless really, as Attack Speed is capped at 90% (the max amount granted by berserker) and Berserk doesn't affect Blade Storm speed, while Primed Fury does. You could put Organ Shatter to increase the critical damage as you would be criting constantly.

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

At 3.5 is when Blood Rush hits the "red zone" (when every attack is a redcrit). You can reach it at 3x if you have True Steel equiped. Naramon would be proc'ing from yellow crits so by 2.5x you are perma invi.

 

I would switch intensify (as Ash hits hard enough IMO) for Rage, to get constant energy.

Depending on weapon Berserker is pointless really, as Attack Speed is capped at 90% (the max amount granted by berserker) and Berserk doesn't affect Blade Storm speed, while Primed Fury does. You could put Organ Shatter to increase the critical damage as you would be criting constantly.

Berserk does not increase bs speed? I was fairly sure it did.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Berserk does not increase bs speed? I was fairly sure it did.

No, it doesn't because it's a temporary buff, same happens with that arcane that gave attack speed, can't remember the name. Only passive attack speed mofifiers affect Blade Storm: Fury (P), Quickening (if you had Channeling active the moment the BS started) and Spoiled Strike (which makes BS animation slower)