Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

Nobody mentions it. But current Blade Storm costs 200 to 600% more energy per enemy than pre-rework, forcing pretty much everyone into Zenurik, Arcane Energize or max Efficiency.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

BladeStorm got worst, but I'd say it's for the best?

The usual "Press 4 to win BladeStorm for days" was what everyone built Ash for since it was easy to spam and a powerful Nuke. There was no reason not to build for it.
With BladeStorm out of the way, his first three skills along with their augments now shine at their rightful place.

One intensify is enough to strip any enemies of 100% of their armor,
invisibility is always welcome anywhere since it kinda increase you survivability by a lot,
Finisher on Teleport does an amazing job at killing things at almost any level.

I find Ash to be "Better" than before the rework as well since he's now Game Friendly while being a good addition to the team.

He is less trolly yes, but bladestorm is not fun to use, that's the issue. Bladestorm is not really worth using right now, especially with the bad cutscenes. And he still doesn't really do much for the team either.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)LastDoomKnight

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Also, Excalibur didn't get his RJ to cost 200-600% more energy than before while taking forever to actually hit all targets.

That's because RJ doesn't bypass with finisher damage with a follow up bleed proc that deals more than 2000 tics of damage for 9 sec which also scales with the combo multiplier.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

That's because RJ doesn't deal finisher damage with a follow up bleed proc that deals more than 2000 tics for 9 sec which also scales with the combo multiplier.

Regardless, old BS didn't cost 900 F+KING ENERGY to deal it's maximum damage.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

That's because RJ doesn't bypass with finisher damage with a follow up bleed proc that deals more than 2000 tics of damage for 9 sec which also scales with the combo multiplier.

 

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Regardless, old BS didn't cost 900 F+KING ENERGY to deal it's maximum damage.

 

I think you two are missing the point. Yes the ability deals a lot of damage but is it a fun skill to use? does it fit well his his other skills? thats the point.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

I think you two are missing the point. Yes the ability deals a lot of damage but is it a fun skill to use? does it fit well his his other skills? thats the point.

I've pointed out before, like, many times. I've been haunting DE about how Ash needs an actual rework a freaking YEAR before the revisited even released. He needs a stance ultimate and current BS baked into Teleport or whatever.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

4 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

 

 

I think you two are missing the point. Yes the ability deals a lot of damage but is it a fun skill to use? does it fit well his his other skills? thats the point.

"FUN" is a subjective word. I think bladestorm is currently a fun and badass ability, sure ash does all the work but being able to just slaughter a group of high lvl enemies while looking like a space ninja sounds more fun than just shooting them one by one. its all around your opinion.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

"FUN" is a subjective word. I think bladestorm is currently a fun and badass ability, sure ash does all the work but being able to just slaughter a group of high lvl enemies while looking like a space ninja sounds more fun than just shooting them one by one.

Well your right its subjective, but as i have said before sometimes you dont know what you like until you see it. You could say that you like Ash's current bladestorm but wouldnt you like it more if it was more interactive? like my current build where you have Hidden Blades as a weapon and you can use Ashiko to jump around the enemies stabbing them to death or hell go on a stealth misson and with careful planning instnant kill every single enemy in the level.

It opens up more posibilities than "press 4 to win"

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

5 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Well your right its subjective, but as i have said before sometimes you dont know what you like until you see it. You could say that you like Ash's current bladestorm but wouldnt you like it more if it was more interactive? like my current build where you have Hidden Blades as a weapon and you can use Ashiko to jump around the enemies stabbing them to death or hell go on a stealth misson and with careful planning instnant kill every single enemy in the level.

It opens up more posibilities than "press 4 to win"

Not going to lie, your and nazrethim's reworks sounds pretty cool. However I'm not sure how I feel about having a stance for a 4th ability since naramon/stealth can make melee so strong(if not better than most melee stance ults) that your better off using that than any stance ability in the game.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

53 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Guess i will just leave this here

May be related in same way i dunno

Yeah I read that, really solid work. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

56 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

I dunno his Radial Javelin is intact but is his three now, same with his Radial Blind, Slash dash is cooler and now he has a large ANIMEEEEEE Energy Sword that shoots energy waves and create mini-Blinds you tell me.

Ye, they didn't change the damage tho. Only lowered the cost. I mean this LoS thing obviously was a misstake but that's what the game has come to.

He's fun but lackluster af. Ash at least gives you something for his ressources. And pretty darn much at that for that what the game has come to....

I mean even BS got it's excellent sides to it...It raises the combo by 2-3 depending on the animation. His top builds which are balanced now and include his whole kit...ya know, these Intensify and power drift -seeking shuriken kinda builds, they remain strong due to the pushed and substained combo multiplier any melee frame only can dream of. Strength is still low? Doesn't matter. Slow Bs sends the clones to finish the job now instead.

That combo multiplier pushing and beein pushed by bladestorm benefits your possible slide attacks.

His invisibility, be it from smoke screen, naramon or trickery adds to your melee damage AND defense in a pretty darn closed manner which would mean certain death for any naramon user in any content that's not offering a constant stream of enemys.

 

All while still giving you benefits to ranged damage trough the armor depell.

 

Name one frame that's got invisibility, strong finishers, combo/melee support without forcing you to use melee, gun support and HIGH damage on a accessable utility build. All that while beein insanely power efficient as he goes (BS's cost has been raised but it's still pretty low as you go. And there's also this thing with having a sentinel picking up orbs for you.)

 

I really doubt he needs anything but tweaks at this point.

Misstake on my part btw, rising storm does not raise the counter that much if body count is present.

 

-a faster Bs

-better aim assist or multi targeting over a good range for BS

-Raising storm working with body count

Those would be changes i can support. But basicly asking a perfectly viable and even strong af frame to get max max max max max damage tweaks? Changing they design choice? Why? 

Seriously

Why?

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Not going to lie, but your and nazrethim's reworks sounds pretty cool. However I'm not sure how I feel about having a stance for a 4th ability since naramon/stealth can make melee so strong(if not better than most melee stance ults) that your better off using that than any stance ability in the game.

Think of it this way. Wouldnt having his stance ult open up for more varied builds that may not require Naramon or all that. I mean he can already instant kill on finishers and Ashiko with Hidden blades can be devastating on unalerted enemies.

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ye, they didn't change the damage tho. Only lowered the cost. I mean this LoS thing obviously was a misstake but that's what the game has come to.

He's fun but lackluster af. Ash at least gives you something for his ressources. And pretty darn much at that for that what the game has come to....

I mean even BS got it's excellent sides to it...It raises the combo by 2-3 depending on the animation. His top builds which are balanced now and include his whole kit...ya know, these Intensify and power drift -seeking shuriken kinda builds, they remain strong due to the pushed and substained combo multiplier any melee frame only can dream of. Strength is still low? Doesn't matter. Slow Bs sends the clones to finish the job now instead.

That combo multiplier pushing and beein pushed by bladestorm benefits your possible slide attacks.

His invisibility, be it from smoke screen, naramon or trickery adds to your melee damage AND defense in a pretty darn closed manner which would mean certain death for any naramon user in any content that's not offering a constant stream of enemys.

 

All while still giving you benefits to ranged damage trough the armor depell.

 

Name one frame that's got invisibility, strong finishers, combo/melee support without forcing you to use melee, gun support and HIGH damage on a accessable utility build. All that while beein insanely power efficient as he goes (BS's cost has been raised but it's still pretty low as you go. And there's also this thing with having a sentinel picking up orbs for you.)

 

I really doubt he needs anything but tweaks at this point.

Misstake on my part btw, rising storm does not raise the counter that much if body count is present.

 

-a faster Bs

-better aim assist or multi targeting over a good range for BS

-Raising storm working with body count

Those would be changes i can support. But basicly asking a perfectly viable and even strong af frame to get max max max max max damage tweaks? Changing they design choice? Why? 

Seriously

Why?

Umm im not sure "Accessible" is a word i would describe Ash with. If anything you got to go out of your way to make him a good as you describe him and yet still other frames could do his Job better.

I dont like feeding fire but why not just use Loki: You go invisible, switch places with an enemy in the middle of a pack, use Irradiating disarm so they arent just disarmed but also confused and go on a rampage.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

Yeah I read that, really solid work. 

Thanks! dont forget to comment there fi you got any ideas

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

8 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Think of it this way. Wouldnt having his stance ult open up for more varied builds that may not require Naramon or all that. I mean he can already instant kill on finishers and Ashiko with Hidden blades can be devastating on unalerted enemies.

 

Umm im not sure "Accessible" is a word i would describe Ash with. If anything you got to go out of your way to make him a good as you describe him and yet still other frames could do his Job better.

I dont like feeding fire but why not just use Loki: You go invisible, switch places with an enemy in the middle of a pack, use Irradiating disarm so they arent just disarmed but also confused and go on a rampage.

On the given AI? With naramon and trickery in the game? Ever watched highly armored units attack each other? It's hillarious at best.

Ash can oneshot them with a finisher, his ult, guns after depelling armor, melee after depelling armor, slash melee builds in generall that calculate off Maimings 100+% crit base with no effort whatsoever...

Ye, no. Accessable like easy af builds. No advanced beginner should have issues with obtaining basic melee and frame mods and a few auguments. But go ahead. Play loki.

 

To anyone else, i can really recommend ash.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

5 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Thanks! dont forget to comment there fi you got any ideas

Will do, but there's already so many great ideas for the frame, that I don't know how much I could add that hasn't already been suggested. I made this post to try to bring a little more attention to this, and your concept would be really cool in-game.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

12 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Think of it this way. Wouldnt having his stance ult open up for more varied builds that may not require Naramon or all that. I mean he can already instant kill on finishers and Ashiko with Hidden blades can be devastating on unalerted enemies.

 

Umm im not sure "Accessible" is a word i would describe Ash with. If anything you got to go out of your way to make him a good as you describe him and yet still other frames could do his Job better.

I dont like feeding fire but why not just use Loki: You go invisible, switch places with an enemy in the middle of a pack, use Irradiating disarm so they arent just disarmed but also confused and go on a rampage.

You can already make multiple builds with ash thanks to his augments, having a stance ability is most likely going to put ash in same position Excal and Valkyr was in, were people only built for their 4th ability, ash atleast requires you put some effort at balancing his abilities with the smokescreen plus bladestorm combo. 

Also for your "why not use loki?" Question, loki is a great and effective frame, but he is so simply to play and build, you just sit in Invisibility not facing any type of challenge and use his 4 here and there, decoy is useless when enemies start to do noticable damage, and switch teleport is just outright pointless unless you use it to cheese spy. Radiant disarm is awesome, but would I disarm and rad proc that lvl 100 napalm and/or group of enemies when I can just kill the fools with bladestorm or teleport?

Edited April 26, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

2 hours ago, MudShadow said:

I think after the nerf the only decent build ASH has is duration/efficiency based stealth+seeking shuriken. And that's the problem with ASH and many other Warframes. They have no synergy between their four abilities, which means players end up modding for one or two abilities. And spamming one or two moves (and that's it). 

I don't even use seeking shuriken on my stealth Ash build, it's damage is pretty poor in my opinion.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

I don't even use seeking shuriken on my stealth Ash build, it's damage is pretty poor in my opinion.

You can completely strip armor, it's pretty powerful.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

You can already make multiple builds with ash thanks to his augments, having a stance ability is most likely going to put ash in same position Excal and Valkyr was in, were people only built for their 4th ability, ash atleast requires you put some effort at balancing his abilities with the smokescreen plus bladestorm combo. 

Also for your "why not use loki?" Question, loki is a great frame, but he is so simply to play and build, you just sit in Invisibility not facing any type of challenge and use his 4 here and there, decoy is useless when enemies start to do noticable damage, and switch teleport is just outright pointless unless you use it to cheese spy. Radiant disarm is awesome, but would I disarm that lvl 100 napalm when I can just kill the fool with bladestorm or teleport?

I inly brign up Loki cause i feel he is better as a team player, he can weaken enemies so his friends can do whatever they want with them. Sur ehe cant nuke an entire Room by himself but he is certantly more flexible while doing so.

And no you currently have to focus most of your build for Bladestorm while my version of Ash for Hidden blades to be its most efficient you also have to take into consideration his other skills like using normal Shurikens to have a great source for ranged damage and build up combo or Explosive Kunais for large crowds, Ashiko to close in and kill with finishers etc.

 

6 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

On the given AI? With naramon and trickery in the game? Ever watched highly armored units attack each other? It's hillarious at best.

Ash can oneshot them with a finisher, his ult, guns after depelling armor, melee after depelling armor, slash melee builds in generall that calculate off Maimings 100+% crit base with no effort whatsoever...

Ye, no. Accessable like easy af builds. No advanced beginner should have issues with obtaining basic melee and frame mods and a few auguments. But go ahead. Play loki.

 

To anyone else, i can really recommend ash.

I have gone and read Naramon tree and Arcane trickery and first of all Arcane Trickery seems like overkill since Naramon already gives you plenty of chances to go invisible and second.... my version of Ash would work better with Naramon, at least give you more chances to use its passives mid combat.

[Nazrethim]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Those would be changes i can support. But basicly asking a perfectly viable and even strong af frame to get max max max max max damage tweaks? Changing they design choice? Why? 

Seriously

Why?

It has been answered already: That something works doesn't mean it's right.

Also, you should totally use Ash in Conclave and tell me if the current ability mechanics fly there. Shuriken is useless, so are Teleport and Blade Storm. Smoke Screen  has it's utility in "makes you bulletjump better for 4s". His passive is also Nikana-only for some unknown reason.

Problem is, none of the abilities can be buffed in any meaningful way without them becoming broken. Giving Ash and ACTUAL rework is the only path.

Also, NO FRAME should be balanced around outside effects, you can't have a Trinity EV, or Zenurik, or forced max efficiency or Arcane Energize or Naramon all the freakin time. The frame must work on it's own.

24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

You can already make multiple builds with ash thanks to his augments, having a stance ability is most likely going to put ash in same position Excal and Valkyr was in, were people only built for their 4th ability, ash atleast requires you put some effort at balancing his abilities with the smokescreen plus bladestorm combo. 

Yeah, like forced max efficiency/zenurik to make BS not drain more energy than the warframe can have. There is a simple way: Duration based Stance Ultimate that relies on ability and melee combos to clear crowds. That's far superior to Exalted Spam, Hyspam and even Primal Spam. Just look at the comments defending current iteration of Ash: All focus on super efficiency shuriken spam to strip armor, have cheap teleport or make blade storm actually affordable. I advice both of you to play Ash at 100% base power stats, and see if he is as good as you claim to be.

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

30 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

 

 

I have gone and read Naramon tree and Arcane trickery and first of all Arcane Trickery seems like overkill since Naramon already gives you plenty of chances to go invisible any second.... 

It's invisibility as you slide (crit), invisibility as you perform Bladestorm, Both on Teleport and Smokescreen on Demand (ressurecting, hacking, multiplier reset or just to make sure)

You're calling Loki better for his invisibility but the seamless concept ash got access to overkill? Now you're just beein silly ^^

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It's invisibility as you slide (crit), invisibility as you perform Bladestorm, Both on Teleport and Smokescreen on Demand (ressurecting, hacking, multiplier reset or just to make sure)

You're calling Loki better for his invisibility but the seamless concept ash got access to overkill? Now you're just beein silly ^^

But Loki is a pretty efficient warframe on his own compared to Ash who needs a bunch of stuff to make him work. I just feel Ash requires too much work and too many outside sources to justify his job, a job he should be good at by default and outside sources should be used to enhance his kit.

Even though Loki could use some tweaks

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

16 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

But Loki is a pretty efficient warframe on his own compared to Ash who needs a bunch of stuff to make him work. I just feel Ash requires too much work and too many outside sources to justify his job, a job he should be good at by default and outside sources should be used to enhance his kit.

Ay? There's exactly one frame, in the entire, frickin, game, that is able to go endless by himself, without tools, and that is loki. (untill eximus get too strong that is. Glass cannon(?) too.)

Chroma? Grace/Hema/Furis/life strike and hope vex doesn't run out in the wrong moment.

Valkyr? Ye and nah, lower armor on the energy stage. Arcane Guardian.

Blinding frames? Nerfed.

Cc? All of them have pros and cons, the better it is, the less damage it allows.

But yeah, let us evaluate the games content by the poster boy, by the exceptation that's still inferior IN the invisibility.

Point is that ash is able to swipe the floor with loki with these tools and those are what the progression in the game is.

Trickery is, as you allready noticed, indeet but the cream topping. It may be costy and indeed takes effort to get. Naramon on the other side is but grind.

Basic builds.

Normal grind on normal progression.

Not difficult.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ay? There's exactly one frame, in the entire, frickin, game, that is able to go endless by himself, without tools, and that is loki. 

Chroma? Grace/Hema/Furis/life strike and hope vex doesn't run out in the wrong moment.

Valkyr? Ye and nah, lower armor on the energy stage.

Blinding frames? Nerfed.

Cc? All of them have pros and cons, the better it is, the less damage it allows.

But yeah, let us evaluate the games content by the poster boy, by the exceptation. 

Point is that ash is able to swipe the floor with loki with these tools.

Trickery is, as you allready noticed, indeet but the cream topping. It may be costy and indeed takes effort to get. Naramon on the other side is but grind.

Basic builds.

Normal grind.

Not difficult.

to each their own i suppose. I still think he is a bit too complicated to make work. Not that i dont like complexity in warframe (hell i love playing around with Vauban's mods, mixing ranges, efficiency and different weapon combinations) I just dont feel like all that should be required for Ash to do his job.

Also lets rememeber this is a team game, i dont mind loner frames but they should have something for the team besides stealing all the kills.

But in the end thats my opinion.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Just now, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

to each their own i suppose. I still think he is a bit too complicated to make work. Not that i dont like complexity in warframe (hell i love playing around with Vauban's mods, mixing ranges, efficiency and different weapon combinations) I just dont feel like all that should be required for Ash to do his job.

Also lets rememeber this is a team game, i dont mind loner frames but they should have something for the team besides stealing all the kills.

But in the end thats my opinion.

A wise gamer once said "The best Cc is death" :P No can harm when no alive.

And complex is somewhat relative as he builds on many simple basics like combo, crit and finishers.

That you can build him up to a certain stage by using complex means only speaks for him is my take on this.