TheMightyBaloon Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 39 minutes ago, Nazrethim said: The best way is to design the abilities to work around default values. No power stats, no Focus schools, no Auras, no outside buffs from pets or allies, etc So in your logic the old 100 cost ability was well designed. With the ability to only use streamline as an efficient mod and flow (no prime mods included) the ability was in terms atrocious to use. Corrupted mods are in terms of fleeting are fine and designing an ability around them is okay. Mind you I started playing prior to focus school and jv arcanes and primed mods. I had no problem maintaining ash 4th ability spam with just playing suda or veil energy generation effects. And the more in depth you get into the game the more you realize that energy pads are a thing. 42 minutes ago, Nazrethim said: Our goal is not to make Ash press 4 to win again, but rather have a good ultimate that demands actual input from the player, Yet you mentioned in a previous reply to me that the old blade storm was fine. 46 minutes ago, Nazrethim said: If they work by default, both at a mechanical and statistical level, then they are well designed and mods actually became options (as they should) rather than being flat out required to make the abilities even remotedly useful in the first place At a base level right now ash's blade storm costs 15 to mark and 10 while invisible. The ability is pretty much designed around the usage of corrupted, nightmare and primed mods. If we are strictly speaking about frames that are easily attainable during the early stages, those should be made so that the player can use them without the help of said mods. Even though frames like rhino and frost are two frames that are heavily reliant on said mods to function well in higher level missions. During the early stages of the starchar progression you don't need much but once you get around mr5/mr6 you can safely start doing vault runs to get corrupted mods. With some of the older not reworked frames you still get the 25/50/75/100 energy progression of the abilities which again is designed to work around the mods. So almost no frames abilities work without any sort of energy generation or energy efficiency. Unless you are using a frame just for the stats so you can survive hits and kill everything with yer weapons. And mind you there were magnetic procs from the electric infested and doing ODS was even worse before energize and zenurik mostly because you ran out of energy once you started hitting 20+ in a run because of the energy drain you'd get. So designing an ability around all the energy mods is fine, because that is what the game is designed around. It is part of its core. But besides that, the whole discussion was about how to improve targeting of blade storm, because currently you target one unit at a time which makes the ability practically useless even if the mark cost was down to 1 energy. The only usefulness of ash is his ability to strip armor with his shurikens and that he innately increases slash dmg, other than that he is just "someone that you used to know". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 9 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: So in your logic the old 100 cost ability was well designed. With the ability to only use streamline as an efficient mod and flow (no prime mods included) the ability was in terms atrocious to use. Corrupted mods are in terms of fleeting are fine and designing an ability around them is okay. Mind you I started playing prior to focus school and jv arcanes and primed mods. I had no problem maintaining ash 4th ability spam with just playing suda or veil energy generation effects. And the more in depth you get into the game the more you realize that energy pads are a thing. Corrupted mods are meant to be "Power at a price" but Fleeting Expertise isn't, because of how broken Power Efficiency is by comparison to every other stat. Further details about the issue can be read here: Spoiler Now, say you want to mod for Blind Rage. With your idea, or current BS, that is impossible, as the ability is designed to work around having maxed efficiency, so anything less and it simply doesn't work. Balancing around broken mechanics is a big bad mistake in terms of game development. 9 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Yet you mentioned in a previous reply to me that the old blade storm was fine. It did it's job at a reasonable cost. It served a function. It didn't overlap with Teleport as current one does. It had a drawback: if you mindlessly spammed often you would get stuck on enemies resistant to it, thus it rewarded NOT spamming it and actually checking your surroundings. It was the Efficiency that broke the dam and allowed the crazyness to happen, as it does with every other frame. By comparison to current Blade Storm, pre-revisit blade storm was very well designed. Not perfect, but it was worth using and gave the player the option to NOT use Max Efficiency and focus on other stats or even forgo power stats completely in favor of utility or ehp. That is not the case with current one, which only works if you have Max Efficiency, Zenurik, Rage. Claiming it is "fine" right now because "it works fine at max efficiency" it's like saying "well, it isn't slow, I have a Primed Fury (+55% attack speed) and a Riven mod with +90% attack speed and it clears things just fine", disregarding the fact that one is a Primed mod and a milestone and Rivens shouldn't be taken into balancing anything. 9 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: And mind you there were magnetic procs from the electric infested and doing ODS was even worse before energize and zenurik mostly because you ran out of energy once you started hitting 20+ in a run because of the energy drain you'd get. And I have pointed many times in the past that energy leeches and magprocs are broken as well. You can read what I think about energy economy here: Spoiler 9 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: But besides that, the whole discussion was about how to improve targeting of blade storm, because currently you target one unit at a time which makes the ability practically useless even if the mark cost was down to 1 energy. The only usefulness of ash is his ability to strip armor with his shurikens and that he innately increases slash dmg, other than that he is just "someone that you used to know". Blade Storm in it's current form is a gordian knot of terrible design, riddled with lots of issues. I can make you a list if you wish :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyBaloon Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Nazrethim said: Corrupted mods are meant to be "Power at a price" but Fleeting Expertise isn't, because of how broken Power Efficiency is by comparison to every other stat But it is power at a price mod, you sacrifice major points in duration. Going for a full efficiency build on ash doesn't allow you to run a high duration invisibility. Frames like ember and equinox cannot run negative duration because you lose efficiency on your drain per second based abilities. The mod gives you a loss in one point of the build and allows you to gain advantage in another. Fleeting is a very bad mod to run on loki for his invisibility set up because you cannot get a high duration. It cuts down nova's and mag's abilities to cover large areas with mp and polarize. I could also point out a few frames that do not need efficiency mods but rely on rage to sustain their energy pool. 1 hour ago, Nazrethim said: By comparison to current Blade Storm, pre-revisit blade storm was very well designed. Not perfect, but it was worth using and gave the player the option to NOT use Max Efficiency and focus on other stats or even forgo power stats completely in favor of utility or ehp It really did not give you any other options, the skill makes you 100% invulnerable, so going efficiency on the build was ideal. It does slash damage and ignores armor which is insane. And the only survivability mod you could squeeze in the "generic" build was vitality since the rest was designed to increase the range and the damage it dealt. You could forgo any survivability mods and focus strictly on range/power strength which cut down the efficiency to about 145%. And I've played enough ash to know so, give to this day it is still my most played frame. In order for you to function as an ash in higher lvl missions and especially void missions you had to build that way, so you could go into blade storm, kill stuff, hope for carrier to pick up energy orbs and have your syndicate weapon proc so you get more energy to keep blade storming. And that is without using rage. The only reason the skill got changed is because it didn't let others interact with the targets your clones attached to. The issue with your suggestions on how to improve efficiency which is generally energy reduction (given the faulty name) in a sense slows the game down. The problem you fail to address is how weapons dictate the flow of the game. The reason why mesa's guns now receive damage from second hand mods, and why excal gets damage from melee. With your example of efficiency a frame like mesa would have to utterly spam efficiency mods since her 4th would just cost an insane amount to sustain. And energy regeneration doesn't work while channeling is active. Ans while the current zenurik is indeed a tad bit over the top, it allows for a sustain and steady flow of energy. It single handily removed the usage of energy siphon as a main aura on the majority of the frames, not to mention rage. It also cut the usage of trinity in warframe squad set ups. During the void key days trinity was a must in almost any survival/defense group because corrosive projection had to be ran and there was no room for energy siphon. Warframe is a fast past game at its core, therefore abilities are adjusted in a way to help keep that fast pace going. If you ever get stuck doing 40 min of Mot with a nova that can cast only 3 molecular primes in succession and then have to wait about 15 sec to cast the next one, you are out of luck. The spawn rate is too high for you to not be spamming that ability to cover rooms with the plethora of enemies. I want the game to stay fast pace and probably so does the community. Non stop action that allows you to bring you overpowered frame against hordes of mobs and eventually face a huge boss that can rip you to shreds (hopefuly PoE brings those kinds of bosses). I don't want to wait 10 second for 20 energy or have a build focused purely on energy regeneration so that I can cast my 100 cost skill to cover 20 m of area and miss 80% of mobs around me. 2 hours ago, Nazrethim said: Claiming it is "fine" right now because "it works fine at max efficiency" it's like saying "well, it isn't slow Most abilities seem to be designed with the idea that you can use corrupted mods to optimize them. Unlike how the current version of saryn is, min-maxing her is a pain and you end up running a generic set up, that works fine, unless you are running a spore based build that forgoes efficiency for range and damage with a bit of duration. In an ideal world I'd like my ash to have 20 second invisibility, max range and good power strength with maximum efficiency on his skills. But that cuts build diversities for the players that enjoy playing certain frames. 2 hours ago, Nazrethim said: And I have pointed many times in the past that energy leeches and magprocs are broken as well. You can read what I think about energy economy here: To be frank it didn't need to be changed, at this point the game is going to become a generic hack and slash. I personally thought those were fine because it made staying longer in a mission harder. The fact that the casual warframe player couldn't handle those types of situation indeed needed to be addressed because the majority of the players don't have much time to grind the game or don't like the grind to begin with. I was an advocate of pushing those spawns later into survivals and defenses that way it made it harder and challenging for those that wanted to stay. Leech enemies are still a problem but unless you are playing some high lvl infested sortie you don't seem them that often because ODS is at this point a dead node to run. And they don't spawn that often with grineer and corpus, even though they exists. Nulifier changes were also kind of silly to me mostly because nulifiers didn't really do much to my gameplay. I'd go in, kill 'em and continue on farming. But that is another discussion for another time. 2 hours ago, Nazrethim said: Blade Storm in it's current form is a gordian knot of terrible design, riddled with lots of issues It really is not. The issue with the skill is that is one of the few remaining press to win skills, which is cut down by the fact that you have to target multiple units with a flail of mouse movements. You either improve on the current version or scrap the ability altogether. A simple way to fix it is to allow multiple targeting so that you can actually have a more smooth gameplay. The ability won't target across rooms since it is LOS, unlike the old blade storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: But it is power at a price mod, you sacrifice major points in duration. Going for a full efficiency build on ash doesn't allow you to run a high duration invisibility. Frames like ember and equinox cannot run negative duration because you lose efficiency on your drain per second based abilities. The mod gives you a loss in one point of the build and allows you to gain advantage in another. Fleeting is a very bad mod to run on loki for his invisibility set up because you cannot get a high duration. It cuts down nova's and mag's abilities to cover large areas with mp and polarize. I could also point out a few frames that do not need efficiency mods but rely on rage to sustain their energy pool. Fleeting Expertise is not balanced because 60% Efficiency isn't the same as 60% Duration. For example. If you increase your Duration by 50%, an ability that lasts 10s will now last 15s. If the stats were balanced +50% Efficiency would reduce the cost enough that you can cast 50% more abilities for the same amount, or in other words: 33% cost reduction, not 50% as Efficiency works. Let's say you could hypothetically reach 99% on all 4 stats. +99% Strength would almost double the damage of your abilities. +99% Duration would almost double duration. +99% Range would almost double the range/radius of abilities. 99% Efficiency would allow you to cast 100 frickin times more abilities! While Effi and Duration are balanced on Channeled abilities, the truth is that for most of the game the stat is flat out broken. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: It really did not give you any other options, the skill makes you 100% invulnerable, so going efficiency on the build was ideal. It does slash damage and ignores armor which is insane. And the only survivability mod you could squeeze in the "generic" build was vitality since the rest was designed to increase the range and the damage it dealt. You could forgo any survivability mods and focus strictly on range/power strength which cut down the efficiency to about 145%. And I've played enough ash to know so, give to this day it is still my most played frame. In order for you to function as an ash in higher lvl missions and especially void missions you had to build that way, so you could go into blade storm, kill stuff, hope for carrier to pick up energy orbs and have your syndicate weapon proc so you get more energy to keep blade storming. And that is without using rage. "ideal". Yeah, that's meta. But I tell you I did high level content just fine with default stats. I still do, the only difference is that I have only 3 abilities. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: The only reason the skill got changed is because it didn't let others interact with the targets your clones attached to. Which had a really simple solution: allow players to damage targets being attacked. No need to nerf the ability into the ground. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: The issue with your suggestions on how to improve efficiency which is generally energy reduction (given the faulty name) in a sense slows the game down. Actually, as other players pointed out. It would just put a slow on the relentless power spam on metabuilds, but would boost power use on the lower ends and among new players, who often lack the mods to do jacksh*t. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: The problem you fail to address is how weapons dictate the flow of the game. The reason why mesa's guns now receive damage from second hand mods, and why excal gets damage from melee. which means... 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: With your example of efficiency a frame like mesa would have to utterly spam efficiency mods since her 4th would just cost an insane amount to sustain. And energy regeneration doesn't work while channeling is active. ...that you would need to stop spamming mindlessly and make more use of your weapons instead of relying entirely on power spam. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Ans while the current zenurik is indeed a tad bit over the top, it allows for a sustain and steady flow of energy. It single handily removed the usage of energy siphon as a main aura on the majority of the frames, not to mention rage. It also cut the usage of trinity in warframe squad set ups. During the void key days trinity was a must in almost any survival/defense group because corrosive projection had to be ran and there was no room for energy siphon. Trinity has been consistently nerfed in all of her abilities... except EV, which was in fact the most broken ability she had and still has. I want you to realise that infinite energy is terrible for the game. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Warframe is a fast past game at its core, therefore abilities are adjusted in a way to help keep that fast pace going. If you ever get stuck doing 40 min of Mot with a nova that can cast only 3 molecular primes in succession and then have to wait about 15 sec to cast the next one, you are out of luck. The spawn rate is too high for you to not be spamming that ability to cover rooms with the plethora of enemies. So, you are confirming that current enemy-per-enemy BS doesn't fit the game. Because you have to spend ages waiting for clipshow to finish. And the spawn rate is too high for BS to keep up, despite draining more energy the frame has capacity for. Ash's purpose is to kill. So, according to your logic, he needs a way to cheaply mass clear rooms...exactly what old BS did before revisit! 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: I want the game to stay fast pace and probably so does the community. Non stop action that allows you to bring you overpowered frame against hordes of mobs and eventually face a huge boss that can rip you to shreds (hopefuly PoE brings those kinds of bosses). I don't want to wait 10 second for 20 energy or have a build focused purely on energy regeneration so that I can cast my 100 cost skill to cover 20 m of area and miss 80% of mobs around me. So, what about Ash waiting 1.5s per enemy marked (on an ability with a cap of 50) and costing from ~200s up to ~2000s of energy? 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Most abilities seem to be designed with the idea that you can use corrupted mods to optimize them. Unlike how the current version of saryn is, min-maxing her is a pain and you end up running a generic set up, that works fine, unless you are running a spore based build that forgoes efficiency for range and damage with a bit of duration. Well, that's what power at a price means, you sacrifice something important to get something else important. Which makes min-maxing very difficult because there isn't a fully "optimal" configuration. Corrupted mods are supposed to work that way, but Effi being broken makes Fleeting Expertise a freebie for any frame without channeled abilities. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: In an ideal world I'd like my ash to have 20 second invisibility, max range and good power strength with maximum efficiency on his skills. But that cuts build diversities for the players that enjoy playing certain frames. I've been pointing out that BS being a power hungry ability scr*ws build diversity by forcing anyone who wants to use it to max Effi and have Zenurik and Rage on. Build diversity doesn't mean "you max everything and put all mandatory mods". It means you can truly choose what to equip, there isn't a "best" option so it's all down to how you want to play the frame and how you enjoy it. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: To be frank it didn't need to be changed, at this point the game is going to become a generic hack and slash. Not really. Changes can be made, and have been made, and Warframe never became generic. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: I personally thought those were fine because it made staying longer in a mission harder. The fact that the casual warframe player couldn't handle those types of situation indeed needed to be addressed because the majority of the players don't have much time to grind the game or don't like the grind to begin with. I was an advocate of pushing those spawns later into survivals and defenses that way it made it harder and challenging for those that wanted to stay. Leech enemies are still a problem but unless you are playing some high lvl infested sortie you don't seem them that often because ODS is at this point a dead node to run. And they don't spawn that often with grineer and corpus, even though they exists. Well, from what I gather here you and I have very different concepts of what "harder" means. To you it seems it's all down to what metabuild you equip, not how good you are at actually playing the game, whereas for me hard content is the one that puts both your knowledge of the game (loadout build to counter threats) and how good you are at the game (skill check), currently there is next to zero skill requirement in pve because players can just cheese everything, ergo, there isn't "endgame" because nothing can be challenging if it can be cheesed easily by equiping a bunch of mods and pressing one or two buttons. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Nulifier changes were also kind of silly to me mostly because nulifiers didn't really do much to my gameplay. I'd go in, kill 'em and continue on farming. But that is another discussion for another time. Well, that's because you live in a bubble of meta. Nothing beyond meta exists to you. Nullifiers made slow firerate weapons even more worthless and the changes made to them adressed this situation to some degree ( drone scaling in health with enemy level still doesn't make any sense because we're back to shooting 10 rounds to pop the bubble) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: It really is not. The issue with the skill is that is one of the few remaining press to win skills, which is cut down by the fact that you have to target multiple units with a flail of mouse movements. You either improve on the current version or scrap the ability altogether. A simple way to fix it is to allow multiple targeting so that you can actually have a more smooth gameplay. The ability won't target across rooms since it is LOS, unlike the old blade storm. Which is... what we've been requesting all this time? that the ability be truly good without being press to win. That allows for build diversity (by not requiring super specific mod setups to even work)? Seriously, which side are you on? I think Azamagon hit the jackpot here: 13 hours ago, Azamagon said: Honestly, I know Ash is supposed to be a heavyhitter / Assassin kind of frame. And that's fine. But just like it was for Limbo, being good against singular targets makes the 'frame generally too slow for the pace of the game. So, what am I proposing? Keep Ash (generally) as he is but add one component to him. Speed And lots of it. So, here are my ideas (speed-oriented buffs will be bolded) Shuriken: Throws 3 Shuriken; 2 of them are still homing, the 3rd goes straight forward with some punchthrough (amount moddable with Power Range) All Shuriken add to the melee combo counter All Shuriken now also proc impact and puncture The bleed-effect from Shuriken is 4x faster than normal bleeds. If Ash hits an enemy with Shuriken when he is not noticed by said enemy (due to being invis or w/e), the entire bleed effect is dealt INSTANTLY Augment now also helps with shields (all augments similar to it honestly should do that too, to reduced pidgeonholed augments) Smoke Screen: Enemies staggered by the smoke are now also blinded for a decent duration Augment leaves behind a small cloud at the cast location -> This cloud blocks enemy line-of-sight, and if an enemy enters the cloud, it is continously blinded (the blind lingers if the enemy leaves the cloud). If an ally enters the cloud, the ally is granted invisibility (teamplay QoL-buff) Teleport: Now finisher-stuns enemies in a small AoE around the landing point (could be visualized by a transparent, rapid energywave eminating from Ash which stuns the enemies) Holdcast -> Teleports straight forward as far as Power Range allows it (more like Itzal's Blink, rather than Ash's Conclave Teleport) Ash can now move during the "landing" animation Ash gains a HUGE boost to finisher attackspeed (like +100% attackspeed, or more, only for finishers) after casting Teleport, for a brief moment Bladestorm When launched, pauses the duration of Smoke Screen (but not while marking) When launched, Ash gets the aid of Smoke Clones, an additional clone summoned every 0,3 seconds, who come in only help him to Bladestorm-attack his enemies faster (So, after 0,9 seconds after casting Bladestorm, he is aided by 3 Smoke Clones to help finish off enemies. After 1,5 second, there are 5 Smoke Clones, etc). He still Bladestorms targets himself, but due to the aid of the Clones, he is unlikely to be Bladestorming for very long. When marking targets, he has a bigger aiming reticle to aid with the speed of marking targets (size of the reticle modifiable with Power Range, albeit affected at a reduced ratio. Imagine the base size of this reticle as big as Mesa's Peacemaker when it is at its smallest size, more or less) Revamped marking mechanic: Now costs 100 energy to activate, but the marking process has a max duration (affected by Power Duration). Marking an enemy no longer costs any energy, and when marked they get 3 marks on them right away (no need to "stay" with the aim, or wobble around). Launch the Bladestorm by tapping the ability again, or by letting the marking period expire. If holdcasting the ability during the marking period, the ability is cancelled instead (energy refunded?). Augment buffed: Durationbonus is now buffed to be the same as Bladestorm's marking duration's timer! 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TheMightyBaloon Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: I tell you I did high level content just fine with default stats. I still do, the only difference is that I have only 3 abilities You can do high lvl content without any skills and just have your warframe be a stat stick, but that is not the point of having a warframe. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: If the stats were balanced +50% Efficiency would reduce the cost enough that you can cast 50% more abilities for the same amount, or in other words: 33% cost reduction, not 50% as Efficiency works. I think at this point you are nitpicking on the word rather than what power efficiency currently does. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: Which had a really simple solution: allow players to damage targets being attacked. No need to nerf the ability into the ground. Ability at the moment does more damage overall than it did before, it wasn't nerfed, just changed. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: So, you are confirming that current enemy-per-enemy BS doesn't fit the game. Because you have to spend ages waiting for clipshow to finish. And the spawn rate is too high for BS to keep up, despite draining more energy the frame has capacity for. Ash's purpose is to kill. So, according to your logic, he needs a way to cheaply mass clear rooms...exactly what old BS did before revisit! I was elaborating on your suggested efficiency/energy changes. And yes at it's core ash should walk into a room and do work, not look around to mark enemies. It is an ability with no drawback when it comes to putting out damage. As I mention either rework the skill all together or adjust it in a way that you don't have to flail around just to mark targets. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: Well, that's because you live in a bubble of meta. Nothing beyond meta exists to you. Nullifiers made slow firerate weapons even more worthless and the changes made to them adressed this situation to some degree ( drone scaling in health with enemy level still doesn't make any sense because we're back to shooting 10 rounds to pop the bubble Passive aggressive insults are your forte I see, but besides that warframe gives you the ability to equip 3 weapons, and a companion. So out of those three weapons you can easily slot in a weapon that deals with nullifiers. When triton was still a thing (an excavation node prior to star chart rework) I on multiple occasions ran acrid as a fast fire nulifier killer. It is more that the casual player wants one weapon to do all of the work for you. The game gave you a challenge, and didn't allow you to mass murder enemies. Also glaive builds were becoming popular to deal with nulifiers prior to the major melee mods we see that dominate the meta. So to your insult no I do not live in a bubble of meta, but I actively explore how to go around certain aspects of the game. If ancient healers are present in a mission, I bring a heavy explosive weapon since that deals with them, my side arm is always geared to either stripping armor or dealing with heavier targets like bombards. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: Which is... what we've been requesting all this time? that the ability be truly good without being press to win. That allows for build diversity (by not requiring super specific mod setups to even work)? Seriously, which side are you on? I'm on the side where the game is incrementally improved over time rather than putting huge changes. And at the moment a basic ash set up doesn't require much and can even be done without primed or corrupted mods. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having a press to win skills, ember in a vacuum is a press to win frame and we know how many times she got reworked. Powerful ability with a bang make the game interesting, new players can say I wanna do that, I want to be able to go in a room of grineer and whipe the floor with them. But when they hit the late game (which is sadly currently limited to high endurance survival or defense runs) they get slammed by hordes of enemies and have to say well, my skill can put them to half HP maybe I can get a group with me and that way we can last longer. From what we've seen DE doesn't want to change the core skills but rather make them more friendly to the player using the frame and the players around it. They decided to make blade storm an ability that marks target and most importantly it requires you to LoS them. So as i've said multiple times before you arrogantly derailed my suggestion with a slew of energy changes and insulting me that I live in a meta bubble(which was funny btw, you could not have been more wrong), make blade storm have a target circle so that you can have easier time targeting units, rather than reverting the skill back to what it was, something DE does not want. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: I think Azamagon hit the jackpot here: While his suggestion is interesting, but the speed aspect is given to volt. Shurikens can be improved but they do fine against mid-lvl enemies even with 130% power strength set up and have a decent augment. Also given the fact that body count exists I do't' think extra combo counter is needed to be added. Smoke could can be I think having it function as a pseudo CC isn't part of ashes kit. It currently staggers nearby enemies and the augment is fine tool to keep your allies out of trouble, it makes down targets invisible while you can revive them and more importantly can be cast on the run, the only invisibility that can do that, meaning it doesn't slow your momentum. Teleport in my view has always been a skill that allows you to kill 1 target, with its augment it now does it automatically rather than it having a 50/50 to activate finisher animation. Also finisher damage already ignores armor so adding extra dmg to dmg that already does so much is rather silly. The ash can move during the landing animation.. I don't get that, you can move right after you land unless you are using the augment for it, in which case you go into a finisher animation. The blade storm suggestion is okay, I think it'd be hard to implement into the game, but in a sense still the same ability but now you can move around? Why not just increase the animation time at this point, it would just do the same. On 9/7/2017 at 10:58 PM, Nazrethim said: When marking targets, he has a bigger aiming reticle to aid with the speed of marking targets (size of the reticle modifiable with Power Range, albeit affected at a reduced ratio. Imagine the base size of this reticle as big as Mesa's Peacemaker when it is at its smallest size, more or less And this was my whole suggestion,keep blade storm as it is, but make it so that ash can mark multiple targets. Which you my dear friend just overlooked for multiple posts now. Edited September 9, 2017 by TheMightyBaloon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: 1) While his suggestion is interesting, but the speed aspect is given to volt. 2) Shurikens can be improved but they do fine against mid-lvl enemies even with 130% power strength set up and have a decent augment. Also given the fact that body count exists I do't' think extra combo counter is needed to be added. 3) Teleport in my view has always been a skill that allows you to kill 1 target, with its augment it now does it automatically rather than it having a 50/50 to activate finisher animation. Also finisher damage already ignores armor so adding extra dmg to dmg that already does so much is rather silly. 4) The ash can move during the landing animation.. I don't get that, you can move right after you land unless you are using the augment for it, in which case you go into a finisher animation. 5) The blade storm suggestion is okay, I think it'd be hard to implement into the game, but in a sense still the same ability but now you can move around? Why not just increase the animation time at this point, it would just do the same. 6) And this was my whole suggestion,keep blade storm as it is, but make it so that ash can mark multiple targets. Which you my dear friend just overlooked for multiple posts now. 1) Killing speed is mainly what I meant... /woosh Regardless, if referring to mobility speed (or speed in general, I'm not 100% sure what you're talking about), saying that Volt is the only one that can have that is ... among the most stupid claims I've heard. More than one Warframe can have great mobility (and there already are), just like more than one Warframe can have great killing power, tankiness or w/e. If you think that the Teleport suggestion would make him infringe too much on Volt's "sole right" to mobility... I just... I don't even... 2) Shuriken, without the augment, have ZERO utility. Even WITH the augment, they are useless against non-armored against highlevel enemies. And since Bladestorm is the multikilling tool, and Teleport is the single target killer, Shuriken needs to have something that the other abilities can't offer. Yes, it has to, otherwise you have kit redundancy. Kit redundancy = Waste of programming. And it is a big issue on a lot of 'frames. 3) Wow, what a great killer-tool huh? Only 50/50 that it works without the augment? Great /s It needs to be MORE than just a single target tool too (as that is a VERY niche tool), so making its other aspect of the ability (the mobility) better goes without saying. And who said anything about extra dmg to dmg? Read again, because I said finisher speed 4) You say you play Ash, yet you don't know what I'm talking about? Have you never done high level stuff where "twitch" play is important? When you finish Teleport, Ash does this little "flip" during which he cannot move, ruining the whole point of doing smooth teleportations, and which can cause his instant death on very high levels. It's a really irritating and pointless part of the ability that could really need to be fixed. 5) Simply speeding up the animation too much would make the ability look really silly, especially in regards to how the ENEMIES would look during the animations. That has to be taken into account too you know? Hence instead quickening it via Smoke Clones instead. Also, no, read (thoroughly) again, Ash wouldn't be allowed to move around, he is part of the Bladestorming. I specifically mentioned this... I mean, really now, how much did you skim that text?! 6) While that is something we both agreed on, I think @Nazrethim is arguing so strongly against you because you are defending DE's horrible and heartless Ash-revisit and his current state way too much. Ash is really, really clunky and a bit too niched right now. Also, both me and Naz are of perfectionist personalities, so we take offense when people defend bad designs (and when people argue with their opinions, despite not even having read carefully what they are even arguing against! *coughcough*). Edited September 9, 2017 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: You can do high lvl content without any skills and just have your warframe be a stat stick, but that is not the point of having a warframe. I didn't say I play him without skills. I said I play him with his 1, 2 and 3 only, because 4th is worthless. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: I think at this point you are nitpicking on the word rather than what power efficiency currently does. I DO have a grudge with Efficiency, but not because it's powerful, it's because it's too damn powerful by comparison to the other 3 stats. If the other 3 stats scaled just like Effi then I wouldn't have any problem with it. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Ability at the moment does more damage overall than it did before, it wasn't nerfed, just changed. It's damage was indeed boosted... by 200 (1800>>2000). That's a 11% buff... Now compare 10% buff to 200-800% increase in cost and 200% increase in uniteractive cutscene+ adding a sh*tty marking mode that was pointed out MONTHS in advance it would s*ck. It was nerfed, but somehow there are a lot of morons who deny it even when they are faced with actual mathematical and empirical proof. It's like trying to make people see that Toy Story 3 is a positive representation of nihilism (probably not my best comparison though) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: As I mention either rework the skill all together or adjust it in a way that you don't have to flail around just to mark targets. Which we already agreed on, if not reworking the ability into something completely different, then make the marking phase faster. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Passive aggressive insults are your forte I see, but besides that warframe gives you the ability to equip 3 weapons, and a companion. So out of those three weapons you can easily slot in a weapon that deals with nullifiers. When triton was still a thing (an excavation node prior to star chart rework) I on multiple occasions ran acrid as a fast fire nulifier killer. It is more that the casual player wants one weapon to do all of the work for you. The game gave you a challenge, and didn't allow you to mass murder enemies. Also glaive builds were becoming popular to deal with nulifiers prior to the major melee mods we see that dominate the meta. So to your insult no I do not live in a bubble of meta, but I actively explore how to go around certain aspects of the game. If ancient healers are present in a mission, I bring a heavy explosive weapon since that deals with them, my side arm is always geared to either stripping armor or dealing with heavier targets like bombards. Well, I've dealt with people who claimed "well, BS works well, I have a 90% attack speed riven and primed fury and it isn't slow, plus with max efficiency zenurik and energize I never ran out of energy". So I am very very tired of metapeople already. You know what's the difference between picking weapons to make the job easier and what I call you out on? weapon choice is entirely optional, you can get a weapon able to destroy nullifiers, or pick a less effective weapon and just dive inside the bubble to kill the f*cker. BS flat out doesn't work outside of max efficiency infinite energy builds and even then is less effective than Ash's other abilities. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: I'm on the side where the game is incrementally improved over time rather than putting huge changes. Sure, because scrapping half the mobility system, revamping the pvp system and revamping the starchart, revamping the damage system, revamping the mod system (also at the same time how abilities are unlocked) aren't "huge changes". 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: And at the moment a basic ash set up doesn't require much and can even be done without primed or corrupted mods. Very well, now go on default power values and tell me BS isn't utter sh*t. You won't be able to. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having a press to win skills, ember in a vacuum is a press to win frame and we know how many times she got reworked. Powerful ability with a bang make the game interesting, new players can say I wanna do that, I want to be able to go in a room of grineer and whipe the floor with them. But when they hit the late game (which is sadly currently limited to high endurance survival or defense runs) they get slammed by hordes of enemies and have to say well, my skill can put them to half HP maybe I can get a group with me and that way we can last longer. Then why oppose Ash gettin that? how on earth making him one of the slowest killers in the game with that being his SOLE function is a good thing in your eyes? You make no sense really. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: From what we've seen DE doesn't want to change the core skills but rather make them more friendly to the player using the frame and the players around it. Yeah sure, except they did the exact opposite with Ash, making his 4 totally worthless and clunky as hell. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: They decided to make blade storm an ability that marks target and most importantly it requires you to LoS them. Nothing wrong with that, but did they have to make the ability worthless in the process? I think not. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: So as i've said multiple times before you arrogantly derailed my suggestion with a slew of energy changes and insulting me that I live in a meta bubble(which was funny btw, you could not have been more wrong), make blade storm have a target circle so that you can have easier time targeting units, rather than reverting the skill back to what it was, something DE does not want. Well, we HAVE thrown suggestions that make Ash's 4 powerful and very reliable without making it another spam-happy fest like before. Some even requiring little to no development of new stuff, just reusing assets DE already have in a more creative way to make an ability that is engaging, fun and still powerful without requiring crazy synergies, super specific builds or stacking broken mechanics on top of each other, to actually work. 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: While his suggestion is interesting, but the speed aspect is given to volt. Shurikens can be improved but they do fine against mid-lvl enemies even with 130% power strength set up and have a decent augment. Also given the fact that body count exists I do't' think extra combo counter is needed to be added. Smoke could can be I think having it function as a pseudo CC isn't part of ashes kit. It currently staggers nearby enemies and the augment is fine tool to keep your allies out of trouble, it makes down targets invisible while you can revive them and more importantly can be cast on the run, the only invisibility that can do that, meaning it doesn't slow your momentum. Teleport in my view has always been a skill that allows you to kill 1 target, with its augment it now does it automatically rather than it having a 50/50 to activate finisher animation. Also finisher damage already ignores armor so adding extra dmg to dmg that already does so much is rather silly. The ash can move during the landing animation.. I don't get that, you can move right after you land unless you are using the augment for it, in which case you go into a finisher animation. The blade storm suggestion is okay, I think it'd be hard to implement into the game, but in a sense still the same ability but now you can move around? Why not just increase the animation time at this point, it would just do the same. Well the thing is that Shuriken has the bad habit of tracking whatever the hell it wants on ocassion, including invulnerable targets that no sane player would aim at. So the addition of a third non-guided shuriken adresses that, as well as adds a skill element to it by requiring players to actually aim. The damageinstantly on unalerted enemies is a bonus to Stealth play (and according to DE Ash is "the master spy"). The addition of an actual smoke screen to Smoke Screen not only makes sense, but would make the ability more unique instead of "invisibility, but shorter and with a stagger". And would make the augment even better, as allies could just walk inside the cloud to get the invi without Ash requiring to hug them. Adding more clones to BS is actually rather simple. The ability already does it. I could get that sh*t working on a Warcraft 3 or Starcraft II editor, so I assume DE can do as well considering they developed the fricking game. Also, that's a bit how pre-nerf BS worked, so, again, no need to reinvent the wheel, just use the ones already on the yard. Similar premise I used on my final rework: not adding new stuff, just reusing what DE already has at their disposal (Stance cobbled together from Claw, Dual dagger and Sparring moves, multikill Finisher attacks triggering old BS marking on a smaller scale, Rolls turned into short teleports just being smoky FX no-character-model sidesteps like Limbo's rift walk...) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: And this was my whole suggestion,keep blade storm as it is, but make it so that ash can mark multiple targets. Which you my dear friend just overlooked for multiple posts now. I could rebuke this (again) but Azamagon beat'd me to it. 36 minutes ago, Azamagon said: 6) While that is something we both agreed on, I think @Nazrethim is arguing so strongly against you because you are defending DE's horrible Ash-revisit and his current state way too much. Ash is really, really clunky and a bit too niched right now. Also, both me and Naz are of perfectionist personalities, so we take offense when people defend bad designs and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyBaloon Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 On 9/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Azamagon said: Regardless, if referring to mobility speed (or speed in general, I'm not 100% sure what you're talking about), saying that Volt is the only one that can have that is ... among the most stupid claims I've heard. More than one Warframe can have great mobility (and there already are), just like more than one Warframe can have great killing power, tankiness or w/e. If you think that the Teleport suggestion would make him infringe too much on Volt's "sole right" to mobility... I just... I don't even.. I said volt's aspect, it is supposed to be part of his kit, be a fast frame because of electricity... I don't know if you even but you missed what I implied. On 9/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Azamagon said: 2) Shuriken, without the augment, have ZERO utility. Even WITH the augment, they are useless against non-armored against highlevel enemies. And since Bladestorm is the multikilling tool, and Teleport is the single target killer, Shuriken needs to have something that the other abilities can't offer. Yes, it has to, otherwise you have kit redundancy. Kit redundancy = Waste of programming. And it is a big issue on a lot of 'frames It is not supposed to work against end game enemies. Yes the skill is redundant but it works fine on the star chart, I've take the skill to void missions and infested missions with a build designed around it and it does fine until you hit the later scaling but 20 min of a survival should be okay with a shurkiken build. The only issue is that you cannot sustain its energy and you have to either run rage or zenurik or waste pads. And talking about kit redundancy... have you looked at nyx?? a frame that nowadays is basically used for assimilate and her augment even though she is supposed to be a "crowd control" frame in a sense. On 9/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Azamagon said: 3) Wow, what a great killer-tool huh? Only 50/50 that it works without the augment? Great /s It needs to be MORE than just a single target tool too (as that is a VERY niche tool), so making its other aspect of the ability (the mobility) better goes without saying. And who said anything about extra dmg to dmg? Read again, because I said finisher speed It is mostly due to how far away and where you landed that the skill was janky. Having it be single target its, since if you add stun into it and more stun the his cloud now you get as you called it skill redundancy. And no I did not read yer post, that is my bad for glancing over a linked comment that at that time wasn't on my radar because my whole point was to give the current ash's BS the ability to multitarget. On 9/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Azamagon said: You say you play Ash, yet you don't know what I'm talking about? Have you never done high level stuff where "twitch" play is important? When you finish Teleport, Ash does this little "flip" during which he cannot move, ruining the whole point of doing smooth teleportations, and which can cause his instant death on very high levels. It's a really irritating and pointless part of the ability that could really need to be fixed. I do play ash and I've rarely had that happen most because I run fatal teleport so I get the i-frames faster. And just for you I spend 30 min in the simulacrum testing stuff, with just fury on the arca titron and fatal teleport the animation of the finisher isn't that bad and you don't get damaged during landing, mostly during re-activation. The damage when fatal teleport isn't equipped happens though taking concentrated fire from 10 heavy gunners isn't much of a testimony to how the skill performs in action without the augment. And sure I do agree that needs to be fixed, either by having a faster animation or the ability to move or even giving it i-frames up until the point he lands. On 9/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Azamagon said: 5) Simply speeding up the animation too much would make the ability look really silly, especially in regards to how the ENEMIES would look during the animations. That has to be taken into account too you know? Hence instead quickening it via Smoke Clones instead. Also, no, read (thoroughly) again, Ash wouldn't be allowed to move around, he is part of the Bladestorming. I specifically mentioned this... I mean, really now, how much did you skim that text?! I pretty much ignored it since it did not concern my initial query, which at this point is still give him multi-targeting. But now that I am reading this you basically want to give him redundancies in terms of skills to improve them, some of the changes are nice other just overlap. So regarding bladestorm you want the old ability but with the new mechanics? So that ash marks targets, but he gets more clones the longer the abilities lasts, so in a sense creating the old ability of targeting without LOS. So do clones only attack market targets and if so why not improve on the current one and if not, why not revert to the old one? On 9/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Azamagon said: 6) While that is something we both agreed on, I think @Nazrethim is arguing so strongly against you because you are defending DE's horrible and heartless Ash-revisit and his current state way too much. Ash is really, really clunky and a bit too niched right now. Also, both me and Naz are of perfectionist personalities, so we take offense when people defend bad designs (and when people argue with their opinions, despite not even having read carefully what they are even arguing against! *coughcough Ash was always a niche frame. The old ash had a sub-par invisibility, a teleport that did almost nothing prior to the augment, shurikens were a "boss killing" tool with the ability to strip the armor which is outclassed by banshee and nova, so they end up being a fun too to play with and bladestrom was just something that irritated other players, that got outclassed by saryn's old 4th ability in terms of clearing rooms. Ash mainly picked popularity with rathoom because of endo farming and that he could auto target in the arena with BS, probably the other reason it got nerfed. The rework wasn't horrible, he got slash synergy, his 2 and 3 received QoL improvements, and bladestorm now does more damage than it did before per target. The skillset can be tweaked a bit more but ash going back to having no LOS targeting on bladestorm won't happen. You also seemed to have missed Nazrethim's initial quarrel with me which was strictly about cost increase of his marking which was suggested by me since having a big targeting circle basically allows ash to do what he did before, aka clean out larger rooms. It was a downside so it doesn't get abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyBaloon Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: I DO have a grudge with Efficiency, but not because it's powerful, it's because it's too damn powerful by comparison to the other 3 stats. If the other 3 stats scaled just like Effi then I wouldn't have any problem with it. Yes and no. Take a frame like volt prime for example, with primed flow he barely needs any efficiency. Frames like hydroid with the current skill set do not need much efficiency. Low cost skills that do not need much spam do not need much efficiency, I can go on and list frames by builds and which require efficiency but that would a completely moot argument at this point. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: It's damage was indeed boosted... by 200 (1800>>2000). That's a 11% buff... Now compare 10% buff to 200-800% increase in cost and 200% increase in uniteractive cutscene+ adding a sh*tty marking mode that was pointed out MONTHS in advance it would s*ck. It was nerfed, but somehow there are a lot of morons who deny it even when they are faced with actual mathematical and empirical proof. It's like trying to make people see that Toy Story 3 is a positive representation of nihilism (probably not my best comparison though) Old ability had a hard limit on how many targets you can hit, now it doesn't. And yes it is more damage per target. Rather you spending 15seconds attack a lvl 80 ancient healer. The whole point of the ability is to not be spamable making you more active. The current skill does more dmg given ash's passive, the weapon augments, steel charge and with a proper set up you barely about 100 energy on about 25ish enemies with 2 marks at least per enemy. This can be negated by using any sort of energy refill be it syndicate procs, energize, zenurik or rage and even energy pads which most of the end game players carry up to 1k in them. Maybe you should revisit your ash set ups and work out what works. The majority of gripe is about energy consumption which you have by far indicated that you'd rather have the old skill at 25 energy cast than being able to build on the new one. You'd rather prefer to live in a perfect world where everything pleases you but no the people around you. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: Yeah sure, except they did the exact opposite with Ash, making his 4 totally worthless and clunky as hell. Quote https://imgur.com/a/ISEJs here, go try this out, it works fine for me as far a bladestorm build is concern. I could post my invisibility set up and my shuriken set up if you cannot figure out how to build for those. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: Well, we HAVE thrown suggestions that make Ash's 4 powerful and very reliable without making it another spam-happy fest like before. Some even requiring little to no development of new stuff, just reusing assets DE already have in a more creative way to make an ability that is engaging, fun and still powerful without requiring crazy synergies, super specific builds or stacking broken mechanics on top of each other, to actually work. But the only synergy it requires is for you to be invisible... which can be remedied by plenty of tools. And given the marking system the ability isn't that spamable right now. As for super specific builds, there are plenty of set ups for it, you find what works for you. Warframe is build around the modding system not the other way around which you want to change, opening a whole different pandora's box. Improve on what you currently have at the moment. There is a reason people are playing the game and it is not because efficiency is "broken". What I think you want is better new player experience which DE is slowly working on, and easier mod acquisition. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: Well the thing is that Shuriken has the bad habit of tracking whatever the hell it wants on ocassion, including invulnerable targets that no sane player would aim at. So the addition of a third non-guided shuriken adresses that, as well as adds a skill element to it by requiring players to actually aim. The damageinstantly on unalerted enemies is a bonus to Stealth play (and according to DE Ash is "the master spy"). It is an ability that is in a sense spammed unless you are aiming it at an armored vay hek to reduce his armor. As I've said before it is not a skill you take to an endless mission and you hope to do well. It is a starchart ability and at best sortie 1. Nothing wrong with that, it does what it is supposed to do, hit targets for a moderate amount of damage and bleed them out. More shurikens would mean ash's focus shifting from using his BS to purely shuriken builds, and since slash already ignores armor this will basically make a spammy ability even more spammier. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: The addition of an actual smoke screen to Smoke Screen not only makes sense, but would make the ability more unique instead of "invisibility, but shorter and with a stagger". And would make the augment even better, as allies could just walk inside the cloud to get the invi without Ash requiring to hug them Smoke screen already attracts target to where you cast it. The augment can be improved on and mainly giving it more range, that I can agree on but smokescreen as it is right now it is okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It makes you invisible, reduces your marks and has a 10m stagger range, oh and is castable during jumps, slides, bullet jumps. You want a utility skill be even more of a utility than it currently is? Kind of making it an overkill don't you think. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: Adding more clones to BS is actually rather simple. The ability already does it. I could get that sh*t working on a Warcraft 3 or Starcraft II editor, so I assume DE can do as well considering they developed the fricking game. Also, that's a bit how pre-nerf BS worked, so, again, no need to reinvent the wheel, just use the ones already on the yard Yeh, it is, point is DE probably doesn't want that. Old animation got you stuck at times for over 10 seconds to finish. With the mark system that doesn't happen much, and you also kill stuff faster, which is nice, hence give him the ability to MULTI-TARGET. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: Quote And this was my whole suggestion,keep blade storm as it is, but make it so that ash can mark multiple targets. Which you my dear friend just overlooked for multiple posts now. I could rebuke this (again) but Azamagon beat'd me to it. He didn't beat you to eat, he basically joined your lynch in a sense. I see both of you wanting the old ash but so that people are pleased about it, that way you can go on and try to bladestorm rooms without having and LOS limitations. And while he has some nice ideas and I can agree with him on some points and disagree on others. You just went on a vendetta about how efficiency is broken making this into a huge farce. So this is me, sick of your idiocy, saying go back and revisit ash yourself and use the current system to figure out how to make him work. He was and will always be a niche frame. Ash does one thing and he does it well, he kills stuff with out no repercussion. On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said: Also, both me and Naz are of perfectionist personalities, so we take offense when people defend bad designs and such. Ahh and this...I poured myself some coffee and laughed at this final line. It is clear from the changes we've seen so far, DE doesn't want the core mechanics of the abilities of frames to be changed, and also wants to remove any sort of room deleting abilities (if you don't get that is when an ability has the potential to kill all enemies in a single tileset). Just like how mag's polarize got reworked or saryn's miasma. Those in a sense need to have a draw back for using them, so that you don't just press to win, which some people like, other do not. Just like how the community was crying out about how simulor was broken with mirage or how the tonkor was too strong, and yes they were. Did they deserve a nerf, sure, was it the right one, in a sense. The game flow is mainly dictated by what is popular in terms of xp farming, relic farming, traces farming. This will dictate the popular frames. Just like how endo farming on sedna with ash was a thing (it probably still is, i farm my endo on hieracon for all that matters). The end game community I know doesn't complain much about how ash got reworked but how there needs to be a larger variety of missions, that engage you, the player, in any meaningful way, rather than farming a survival void fissure for 2 hours abusing atterax and octavia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: hence give him the ability to MULTI-TARGET. It does that too actually, you set up to 3 marks by targeting one enemy. That's the key element to the multihit mechanic, where your shadows attack after you.. The tiny window to target enemys is really all that's making issues imo. Btw, if you didn't allready do, you gotta try using BS with melee rivens that give attack speed. That paired with primed fury and optionally other tools actually makes it strike up to allmost 3 times as fast, what makes it perform the same as it did prior at the bare minimum...he knows that. I told him and someone else confirmed it for him. Edited September 12, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Ash was always a niche frame True, that niche was "kill'em all'. Now it still does, without his ultimate, which has been already pointed out many times why it's pointless. Quote . The old ash had a sub-par invisibility, Still is. Quote a teleport that did almost nothing prior to the augment, True, but that Augment didn't come with the revisit. The revisit actually scr+wed the augment because if a Bombard is towering over a low crate TP has the sh*tty detection that prioritizes the box over the huge brute behind it you were actually aiming at. Or it just telebugs you inside several objects. Quote shurikens were a "boss killing" tool with the ability to strip the armor which is outclassed by banshee and nova, so they end up being a fun too to play with Still true. Quote and bladestrom was just something that irritated other players, that got outclassed by saryn's old 4th ability in terms of clearing rooms. It did it's job and it did it well. Quote Ash mainly picked popularity with rathoom because of endo farming and that he could auto target in the arena with BS, probably the other reason it got nerfed. He was popular before actually. It was the Rathuum abuse (which, considering Rathuum didn't allow restores, focus took time to charge and orbs were normalized was only allowed by Efficiency). Quote The rework wasn't horrible, he got slash synergy, A thing they could have added anyway, and isn't that good actually if you stop to think about it. Quote his 2 and 3 received QoL improvements, 2 received a straight QoL imrovement, for 3 it wasn't so, as you rely on RNG to have an object were you want to go (oddly enough unbreakable objects aren¡t included) and often bugs you inside objects or scr^ws you by selecting the object as a target rather than the enemy next to it. Quote and bladestorm now does more damage than it did before per target. I already mathematicall proved that while there was a damage buff all the other negative sh*t they threw in pretty much made it pointless. The ability is the weakest it has been since closed Beta, and in those times it only dealt Slash damage mind you. Quote The skillset can be tweaked a bit more but ash going back to having no LOS targeting on bladestorm won't happen. Which is we already agreed MANY times don't want to happen. Do you even read? --- 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Yes and no. Take a frame like volt prime for example, with primed flow he barely needs any efficiency. Frames like hydroid with the current skill set do not need much efficiency. Low cost skills that do not need much spam do not need much efficiency, I can go on and list frames by builds and which require efficiency but that would a completely moot argument at this point. You missed the point entirely. Efficiency is broken because it scales exponentially while every other power stat scales linearly. Quote Old ability had a hard limit on how many targets you can hit, now it doesn't. Actually, it has, it is capped at 50 marked enemies (total of 150 marks active at any given time). Seems better but it isn't because the cost per attack has risen by 200% with just a meager 10% damage buff. Quote And yes it is more damage per target. 10% vs all the negatives = negatives outweight the buff by a LOT Quote Rather you spending 15seconds attack a lvl 80 ancient healer. Which rarely happened to me because I wasn't a spammer moron. I cleared enemies I may get stuck on before casting. Quote The whole point of the ability is to not be spamable making you more active. The current skill does more dmg given ash's passive, the weapon augments, steel charge and with a proper set up (Max Efficiency+Zenurik+Rage+Energize+Trinity+Pizza+admin commands of infinite energy+...) you barely about 100 energy on about 25ish enemies with 2 marks at least per enemy. This can be negated by using any sort of energy refill be it syndicate procs, energize, zenurik or rage and even energy pads which most of the end game players carry up to 1k in them. Maybe you should revisit your ash set ups and work out what works. The majority of gripe is about energy consumption which you have by far indicated that you'd rather have the old skill at 100 energy cast than being able to build on the new one. You'd rather prefer to live in a perfect world where everything pleases you but no the people around you. There, fixed some parts. Quote https://imgur.com/a/ISEJs here, go try this out, it works fine for me as far a bladestorm build is concern. I could post my invisibility set up and my shuriken set up if you cannot figure out how to build for those. I have builds for everything. I always do on all games. Hell, back in Wrath I figured out a Combat/Subtlety Rogue build that could actually Tank heroic dungeons despite rogue not being a tank. But of course, to you a SINGLE viable build in a game that supposedly gives you lots of options is fine. Sure you know what actual balance is. You get a cookie. Quote But the only synergy it requires is for you to be invisible... which can be remedied by plenty of tools. And given the marking system the ability isn't that spamable right now. Which means the whole point of keeping the cutscenes is not there, as you don't actually see the animations, just a blob of smoke doing something similar to stabbing a dude, or humping them. And the marking system is terrible. There were better ways to make it not spammable than adding the worst set up ever. Quote As for super specific builds, there are plenty of set ups for it, you find what works for you. Anything that isn't max efficiency means you cannot use BS. Actually BS is STILL the least effective option WITH Efficiency. Quote There is a reason people are playing the game and it is not because efficiency is "broken". What I think you want is better new player experience which DE is slowly working on, and easier mod acquisition. They play it because everyone gets a niche. There are many types of character archetypes, different playstyles (Though Endless is nowadays the only way to get anything done) and a miriad of weapons to choose from. The fact is that Ash went from being one of the most played frames and dropped to one of the least played. Which is not surprising, but consider that even long times fans of the frame that didn't build around bladespam jumped off the boat. That sends a clear message: DE scr*wed up BIG TIME with Ash. Quote It is an ability that is in a sense spammed unless you are aiming it at an armored vay hek to reduce his armor. As I've said before it is not a skill you take to an endless mission and you hope to do well. It is a starchart ability and at best sortie 1. Nothing wrong with that, it does what it is supposed to do, hit targets for a moderate amount of damage and bleed them out. More shurikens would mean ash's focus shifting from using his BS to purely shuriken builds, and since slash already ignores armor this will basically make a spammy ability even more spammier. Well, at low levels, and up to, around Saturn, Shuriken is flat out better than BS. Then SS and FT take over as the go-to killing tools. Quote Smoke screen already attracts target to where you cast it. or cause them to shoot into that cloud, potentially killing Ash if he didn't teleport or bulletjumped out of it. And then does nothing. Quote The augment can be improved on and mainly giving it more range, that I can agree on but smokescreen as it is right now it is okay. Not good, not bad, just okay. It makes you invisible, reduces your marks and has a 10m stagger range, oh and is castable during jumps, slides, bullet jumps. You want a utility skill be even more of a utility than it currently is? Kind of making it an overkill don't you think. Not really. Considering it's not recastable, last laughably short time, stagger is largely pointless and Smoke Shadow cannot be helped even with more range. Making a cloud that serves other purpose (LoS denial for enemies, accuracy debuffs or hell even finisher openings) and makes SShadow an option for allies even after cast (cause they could just run inside the cloud and get the invis) not only fits the frame, makes sense, but it wouldn't be overkill. Well, maybe the finisher openings would, but accuracy debuffs and LoS troubles for enemies wouldn't. Quote Yeh, it is, point is DE probably doesn't want that. Old animation got you stuck at times for over 10 seconds to finish. With the mark system that doesn't happen much, and you also kill stuff faster, which is nice, hence give him the ability to MULTI-TARGET. Neither do we. Old Animation only got you stuck if you were a spammer idiot careless with it. And current one takes as many seconds as enemies are marked, which given the cap you can get 75s stuck. And multitarget would work on paper if it didn't require additional time or energy (you mark enemy once and they get 3 marks, cost unaffected by number of marks) but it doesnt. If you want to multimark you need to wait for 3 solid seconds on a given target or move your mouse like you're having a seizure, and it costs triple energy too! Quote He didn't beat you to eat, he basically joined your lynch in a sense. I see both of you wanting the old ash but so that people are pleased about it, that way you can go on and try to bladestorm rooms without having and LOS limitations. And while he has some nice ideas and I can agree with him on some points and disagree on others. You just went on a vendetta about how efficiency is broken making this into a huge farce. So this is me, sick of your idiocy, saying go back and revisit ash yourself and use the current system to figure out how to make him work. He was and will always be a niche frame. Ash does one thing and he does it well, he kills stuff with out no repercussion. We don't want old Ash. We want an actual rework that solves the frame's problems, both the old ones that didn't got solved with the revisit and the ones the revisit brought with it (which outweight the actual upgrades by 6 to 1) Efficiency is objectively broken. I don't care if DE's intention is to have it that way (it is aparently), when I spot a crystal clear imbalance I point it out. Indeed. He kills. So long as you NEVER use BS. Quote It is clear from the changes we've seen so far, DE doesn't want the core mechanics of the abilities of frames to be changed Limbo and Oberon say hi. Quote , and also wants to remove any sort of room deleting abilities (if you don't get that is when an ability has the potential to kill all enemies in a single tileset). Just like how mag's polarize got reworked or saryn's miasma. Which we already mentioned DON'T want happening to Ash again. We want a way to clear rooms, sure, but not a mindlessly spammy one, neither a clunky and slow as hell one that drains more than ten times the frame has capaciy for. Quote The end game community I know doesn't complain much about how ash got reworked but how there needs to be a larger variety of missions, that engage you, the player, in any meaningful way, rather than farming a survival void fissure for 2 hours abusing atterax and octavia. Well, consider that Ash threads still pop up regularly, and that this thread is nearly a year old and it's STILL going. Also, who is this "end game community" you speak of? You mean the MaxEffi spammers who didn't really got hit by the full force of the nerf or just didn't bother and abandoned the frame once the nerf hit? The ones who were responsible in the first place of the frame having broken stuff? (which is a misnomber actually. The frame wasn't really broken. It was a stupid stat that broke the dam and allowed the crazyness to happen. It's like Warloks at the end of Mists of Pandaria) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: saying go back and revisit ash yourself and use the current system to figure out how to make him work. Like I already did? Spoiler This is a rework focused on finesse rather than brute force. Skill and attention over turning your brain off. I can answer any technical questions about how it would mechanically work behind the smoke and flash. Ash rework: Passive: Hemorrhage Increases Bleed damage by 20% and Bleeds tick 100% faster Passive: Mark of the Assassin. While aiming, gliding or latching, Ash marks enemies. Marked enemies take 20% extra Finisher and Bleed damage. Mark lasts 10s and uses no energy. Enemies marked are highlighted on the radar. 50m range. Shuriken: Tap: Ash throws a Shuriken in a straight line, dealing heavy Puncture damage, impaling enemies on walls. Has 3.0 punch trough. Also applies a Bleed proc. Hold: After holding for 1s, Ash throws a barrage of smaller, seeking shurikens to all marked enemies, dealing Slash damage. Also applies a Bleed proc. Seeking Shuriken: -Tap: removes 100% enemy Armor and ricochets on a surface it can't pass trough up to 3 times. -Hold: removes 50% enemy Armor. Smoke Screen: Ash creates a cloud of smoke that lasts for 12s (base duration at max ability lvl). Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud. Enemies inside the cloud are blinded and open for Finisher attacks. Cloud radius is 3m. Tap: cast at Ash's feet. Hold (1s): cast at the surface Ash is aiming (20m range max with default Power Range) Smoke Shadow: Allies who enter/pass trough the cloud also gain invisibility while inside it and for 8s after leaving the cloud. Teleport: Tap: Ash teleports to the target location, stunning and opening nearby enemies to Finisher attacks. Cost 25 energy. Hold: Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 15 energy (10 if invisible) per enemy. Fatal Teleport: -Refunds 50% of the cost on next kill. -Tap: Ash will Finish the nearest enemy instantly, triggering a second radial stagger with opening. -Hold: Increase Finisher damage 200% Blade Storm: Ash enters into Blade Storm mode (he pulls his blades out and vents more smoke). Roll, Sidestep and Backspring are replaced by manic-like teleports. On Finisher attacks Ash will rapidly teleport between enemies assassinating small groups (alternatively 3 holographic clones will show up to do a Finisher on nearby enermies, essentially Ash Finish up to 4 enemies per finisher attack in this mode) Combos are a mix of kicks and vicious blade attacks. Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special. Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack. Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line. Duration based ultimate. Tap while active to refresh, Hold to cancel. Rising Storm: -Increase COmbo counter while in Blade Storm by 10s and the combo counter increase by +0.25x Conclave version: Passive: Hemorrhage Melee strikes inflict a Bleed proc dealing 10% of the weapons Slash damage per second for 3s Passive: Mark of the Assassin Only marks on radar. Has 10m marking range and falls off when enemy is 20m away. Lasts only 5s. Shuriken: -Tap deals 70 Puncture damage -Hold deals 25 Slash damage+10 Bleed over 10s Smoke Screen: Cloud duration is 6s, lingering invisibility is 4s. Attacking, casting abilities or picking items cancels lingering invisbility but not cloud invisibility. It also increases Mobility by 0.4 Tear Gas: -Enemies that enter the cloud are Blinded while inside it and for 1.5s after leaving it. Teleport: (Tap only, Hold function disabled) Ash teleports to the location he is aiming. (Doesn't trigger a Stagger) Blade Storm: Doesn't trigger Finishers, instead it deals heavy damage (not oneshot though) and inflicts a Bleed proc on hit. Lasts only 10s. Sinister Shadow (Augment): Ash leaves an afterimage of himself whenever he performs a dash. Lasts 2s. It creates a static decoy that doesn't move nor has collision of any type, it's purpose is deception/distraction. Note: Conclave abilities work mostly the same as the PvE counterparts, the mechanics listed are only the changes for balance. Edited September 12, 2017 by Nazrethim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, TheMightyBaloon said: 1) I said volt's aspect, it is supposed to be part of his kit, be a fast frame because of electricity... I don't know if you even but you missed what I implied. 2) It is not supposed to work against end game enemies. Yes the skill is redundant but it works fine on the star chart, I've take the skill to void missions and infested missions with a build designed around it and it does fine until you hit the later scaling but 20 min of a survival should be okay with a shurkiken build. The only issue is that you cannot sustain its energy and you have to either run rage or zenurik or waste pads. 3) And talking about kit redundancy... have you looked at nyx?? a frame that nowadays is basically used for assimilate and her augment even though she is supposed to be a "crowd control" frame in a sense. 4) It is mostly due to how far away and where you landed that the skill was janky. Having it be single target its, since if you add stun into it and more stun the his cloud now you get as you called it skill redundancy. And no I did not read yer post, that is my bad for glancing over a linked comment that at that time wasn't on my radar because my whole point was to give the current ash's BS the ability to multitarget. 5) I do play ash and I've rarely had that happen most because I run fatal teleport so I get the i-frames faster. And just for you I spend 30 min in the simulacrum testing stuff, with just fury on the arca titron and fatal teleport the animation of the finisher isn't that bad and you don't get damaged during landing, mostly during re-activation. The damage when fatal teleport isn't equipped happens though taking concentrated fire from 10 heavy gunners isn't much of a testimony to how the skill performs in action without the augment. And sure I do agree that needs to be fixed, either by having a faster animation or the ability to move or even giving it i-frames up until the point he lands. 6) I pretty much ignored it since it did not concern my initial query, which at this point is still give him multi-targeting. But now that I am reading this you basically want to give him redundancies in terms of skills to improve them, some of the changes are nice other just overlap. So regarding bladestorm you want the old ability but with the new mechanics? So that ash marks targets, but he gets more clones the longer the abilities lasts, so in a sense creating the old ability of targeting without LOS. So do clones only attack market targets and if so why not improve on the current one and if not, why not revert to the old one? 7) Ash was always a niche frame. The old ash had a sub-par invisibility, a teleport that did almost nothing prior to the augment, shurikens were a "boss killing" tool with the ability to strip the armor which is outclassed by banshee and nova, so they end up being a fun too to play with and bladestrom was just something that irritated other players, that got outclassed by saryn's old 4th ability in terms of clearing rooms. Ash mainly picked popularity with rathoom because of endo farming and that he could auto target in the arena with BS, probably the other reason it got nerfed. The rework wasn't horrible, he got slash synergy, his 2 and 3 received QoL improvements, and bladestorm now does more damage than it did before per target. The skillset can be tweaked a bit more but ash going back to having no LOS targeting on bladestorm won't happen. 8) You also seemed to have missed Nazrethim's initial quarrel with me which was strictly about cost increase of his marking which was suggested by me since having a big targeting circle basically allows ash to do what he did before, aka clean out larger rooms. It was a downside so it doesn't get abused. 1) Then ... what are you implying? You said speed is Volt's thing (even though his MAIN focus is Electricity, but w/e). Yeah, Volt has his Speed-ability, that's the only part of him that makes him generally fast. But he is not the only 'frame that can be really fast: You have Nova with Wormhole, Octavia's Metronome buffs, Ash's Teleport, or if in terms of dexterity, you have Harrow's Penance. What I was trying to say was that Ash can be doing more or less what he does now (an Assassin-esque frame that doesn't hit supermany enemies, but he hits them hard), I just suggested to just let him do his job faster. Then you started saying "No, no, the speed aspect belongs to Volt" ... what? 2) Not supposed to work against end game enemies... says who? Why should you not be using your whole kit ALL the time? If you are saying that an ability in your kit is supposed to be good in the start, but useless in the endgame(or, as is somewhat the case of Teleport, vice versa; Kinda pointless early on, but good later on) ... well, I'd put it mildly by calling you a bad balancing designer. 3) Eh? Are we talking about Nyx here? No. Even if she (and most other Warframes) have kit redundancy issues (of which only Psychic Bolts truly has issues), we are talking about Ash here. So let's focus on him, shall we? 4) Even if both Smoke Screen and Teleport would have some AoE stuns, they wouldn't be redundant. Invisibility and mobility, remember? They would still have seperate distinct uses. And alright, thanks for not hiding that you just glanced over it. But, please, in the future don't glance at someone's posts, yet take the time to berate them. That's poor argumenting which really doesn't work in your favor, alright? 5) Which is why I suggested that the landing (however brief it may be), shouldn't stop your movement. 6) First; Having a slight overlap is fine, as long as there are other uses to an ability. For example; All 4 abilities of Ash can either directly or indirectly make you kill stuff (Smoke Screen, well, not really, but it does amp your melee damage, is what I'm trying to say). But if that is all they did, only the best one would be used over and over (as was the case of old Bladestorm, pretty much). However, they currently do have other niches; Smoke Screen's invisibility is great for survivability, since you are far less likely to be targetted Teleport also grants mobility, albeit a bit clunkily so Bladestorm grants temporary invulnerability, and its zip-zap mobility (allowing longdistance looting and such) Shuriken, but ONLY with the augment (and ONLY against armored foes) can aid with taking down tough targets from a distance, without the need to get close (in contrast to Teleport). This is mainly only a good strategy to use against bosses though. However, take away the augment (something an ability shouldn't have to rely on to be useful) and it provides no utility whatsoever on higher levels. Even WITH the augment, outside of boss-fights, Bladestorm (yes, the current one) and finishers (provided via Teleport) ignore armor anyway, thus meaning that the Shuriken even with the augment is VERY niched. AND it's a 100% useless augment against shielded foes. Thus my utility-suggestions for it. Onto my suggestions / your questions for Bladestorm: No, I do not want the old ability, that one was far too easy to use. I've suggested to improve the current one. What I have suggested is: You still have to mark enemies, though more easily done with the bigger reticle (as we both have suggested), so LOS still plays a role. The Smoke Clones only attack enemies you have marked (so again, LOS still plays a role for them as well), so in essence, they are simply added to speed up the Bladestorming animations. (and I already explained why it would be bad to simply speed up the actual animations). Then the change in energycost and adding a max marking timer. As for this part you said:"So do clones only attack market targets and if so why not improve on the current one" Ummmm.... You mean... improve the current Bladestorm just like how I was suggesting to improve the current Bladestorm?! Your confusion confuses me... All in all, what I have suggested is; Easier marking (you have suggested this reticle thing as well), faster attacks (via Smoke Clones joining earlier, and more of them joining over time) and less extreme in energycost (with a fixed energycost, but a limitted marking time as a counterpoint). Also, by fixing the energycost back to 100 energy (but giving a maximum marking time), it means that it won't be superior (damage-to-energy-wise) to Shuriken at all times either, and by doing so, Shuriken (due to its onehanded cast and suggested utilities and improvements) would see more serious use, even without its augment. Both early game and endgame. 7) Yes? * Smoke Screen - He has a much better invisibility tool now (I think @Nazrethim's suggestions are possibly a bit too much for it, yes, I can agreed with that), and I mainly only want him to get QoL-improvements for the superduper clunky augment. With the suggestions I have proposed, the augment would be far less clunky AND it would come of use even when playing solo. * Teleport - Without the augment, it still is limitted. Just because it got a pretty nice augment doesn't mean that the base ability's issues should be ignored. This is exactly why people often call augments BANDAIDS! * Shuriken - This is STILL only seriously used with its augments against bosses. Outside of bosses and its augment, Shuriken is basicly just a meager toy, mostly just used to quickly swat Corpus cameras. So, same case here, augments are NOT a justification for the base ability to be so bad and limitted. * Bladestorm - It can still irritate players. But now it mostly irritates the USER of Bladestorm. * Passive - All Warframes have a passive. And he got a decent one. This is irrelevant to his revisit, really. The only good thing Ash truly got from this revisit s his onehanded invisibility. That's it. The rest was horrible or even untouched. Shuriken is still a superniched (WITH its augment) unloved toy, Teleport is still highly reliant on its augment to do its killing job properly (and still is rather clunky and limitted for mobility), and Bladestorm is mostly just a slow, energywasting mess. Why do you defend that? 8) Well, he IS right about the extreme energycosts though. And with a bigger marking reticle (while good and something I agreed with), how on earth would that solve the energyissues? If anything, doesn't that make the energy-issues even more apparent? And if what you are saying, that the extreme energycosts should be its downsides, that's just completely unfair. It already takes some time to prepare AND to launch, why would it ALSO need its currently absurd energycosts tacked on top of that? This proves @Nazrethim's point even more about how Smoke Screen+slideattacking is then a much better approach as your optimal "multikilling" option. If a 100 energycost but countered by a limitted marking period would be "too abuseable", then at least make it less harsh than now. Say: About 50 to 75 base energycost, 5 energy per target marked (but with all 3 marks at once), possibly still with a max marking period (but now with a bit more time leeway than the first suggestion). That way, it's still best used for bigger clumps of enemies, but if you go for too many you might spend all your energy. Use it on too few enemies, and it'd be rather wasted in terms of energycosts. Thus potentially energystarving if used wrong, but quicker to use and still more fair in energycosts than it is now. What do you say, would that be more reasonable? Edited September 13, 2017 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Angryspy101 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 The whole point of the revisit was to nerf bladestorm, and im pretty sure any smart ash player one that. However I personally don't mind the ability now. Watching cut-scenes is no better then spamming your abilities with any other frame and plus my ash loadout makes the animations quick and tolerable, so I can use it to clear hordes of enemies in sorties 3s and collect loot. Also for unknown reasons, DE didn't tell us that they removed bladestorm's damage cap against special units/bosses, because old bladestorm did next to no damage to enemies like shadow stalker, corrupted Vor, and Sentients, but now I can kill them all with 2-3 casts of bladestorm which bypasses their damage resistances. I still remember the time I was dealing 6000 finisher damage a mark against kela de that in a sortie assassination (i would use fatal teleport but that bugs her out). Honestly for me, bladestorm is probably one of the best boss killing abilities right behind mesa's peacemaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said: Also for unknown reasons, DE didn't tell us that they removed bladestorm's damage cap against special units/bosses, because old bladestorm did next to no damage to enemies like shadow stalker, corrupted Vor, and Sentients, but now I can kill them all with 2-3 casts of bladestorm which bypasses their damage resistances. I still remember the time I was dealing 6000 finisher damage a mark against kela de that in a sortie assassination (i would use fatal teleport but that bugs her out). Actually that has more to do with Shadow Stalker being weaker than Stalker. Normal stalker pretty much laughs at BS while Shadow Stalker takes the brunt of the damage. He can adapt though, but the UI displays it as Impact inmunity or with no icon at all for some reason (likely Finisher damage doesn't have an icon). Sentients also adapt, but much like Shadow Stalker they take a most of their health out. The cap on eximi was indeed removed, yet not listed (like a lot of things) but it seems to be there on huggynaut. As for bosses, well, they always took a lot of damage from BS, except they already had the "can't be attacked twice" thing before, the only times they don't take it is during invulnerability phases (both old and current). Edited September 13, 2017 by Nazrethim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Angryspy101 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Nazrethim said: Actually that has more to do with Shadow Stalker being weaker than Stalker. Normal stalker pretty much laughs at BS while Shadow Stalker takes the brunt of the damage. He can adapt though, but the UI displays it as Impact inmunity or with no icon at all for some reason (likely Finisher damage doesn't have an icon). Sentients also adapt, but much like Shadow Stalker they take a most of their health out. The cap on eximi was indeed removed, yet not listed (like a lot of things) but it seems to be there on huggynaut. As for bosses, well, they always took a lot of damage from BS, except they already had the "can't be attacked twice" thing before, the only times they don't take it is during invulnerability phases (both old and current). I don't believe Sentients adapt to finisher damage, I mean I tested bladestorm against lvl 100 Sentients, and there's a bug were Sentients will adapt to fire damage when damage by bladestorm, but the finisher damage was consistent throughout the test. So I safely say that Sentients damage adaption doesn't work against bladestorm and I assume same thing goes for shadow stalker. Also are you sure shadow stalker is weaker than stalker, I mean bladestorm isn't even needed for normal stalker since pretty much anything can one-shot him(Atleast from my last encounter with him). Even if old bladestorm was good against bosses, current one is a lot better because now instead of using 100 energy to do a single 2000-6000 attack, you only spend like 45 energy to perform 3 2000-3000. Which makes bladestorm more of a boss/bullet sponge killer than a room clearer. Shuriken/guns/stealth melee multiplier for weak enemies, fatal teleport for heavy units, and now bladestorm for bosses and "special" enemies. Edited September 13, 2017 by (XB1)Angryspy101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said: I don't believe Sentients adapt to finisher damage, I mean I tested bladestorm against lvl 100 Sentients, and there's a bug were Sentients will adapt to fire damage when damage by bladestorm, but the finisher damage was consistent throughout the test. So I safely say that Sentients damage adaption doesn't work against bladestorm and I assume some things goes for shadow stalker. That's probable too. Wierd that for you it adapts to Fire. For me it's almost always Impact, and in some cases, Cold, oddly enough. I blame that on the game not having a Finisher damage icon coded. 2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said: Also are you sure shadow stalker is weaker than stalker, I mean bladestorm isn't even needed for normal stalker since pretty much anything can one-shot him(Atleast from my last encounter with him). Even if old bladestorm was good against bosses, current one is a lot better because now instead of using 100 energy to do a single 2000-6000 attack, you only spend like 30 energy to perform 3 2000-3000. Which makes bladestorm more of a boss/bullet sponge killer than a room clearer. Yeah, I faced common stalker a few weeks ago and he just said "your warframe powers are useless" and didn't got damaged. He did got the bleeds and they damaged him a lot though. But it's so rare nowadays to face him that's not important really. And no, old BS wasn't actually good against bosses. In that specific case current is better. Which means in the end we are still stuck with two abilities that kind of do the exact same thing. Teleport and Blade Storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racter Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Just like to point out that I recently returned from a ~9 month break, been back about two weeks and haven't seen a single Ash or Ash Prime since I returned. I've seen 3 Zephyrs, for comparisons sake, but zero (0) Ash players. That speaks volumes to how well this "rework" was received IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Angryspy101 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Racter said: Just like to point out that I recently returned from a ~9 month break, been back about two weeks and haven't seen a single Ash or Ash Prime since I returned. I've seen 3 Zephyrs, for comparisons sake, but zero (0) Ash players. That speaks volumes to how well this "rework" was received IMO. I haven't seen any Mesa players in the past two weeks, by your logic mesa's rework must of been badly received too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Racter said: Just like to point out that I recently returned from a ~9 month break, been back about two weeks and haven't seen a single Ash or Ash Prime since I returned. I've seen 3 Zephyrs, for comparisons sake, but zero (0) Ash players. That speaks volumes to how well this "rework" was received IMO. 49 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said: I haven't seen any Mesa players in the past two weeks, by your logic mesa's rework must of been badly received too. Well, that's because Ash is considered a "solo frame" now. The only functions the assassin frame has now it's purely support: armor stripping with shuriken augment and providing cover with smoke shadow to revive squishy wizards. He was good at mass slaughter, but that was bad for a warrior ninja themed frame apparently (note: most players are sh*tty game designers) In your usual, run of the mill mission, Ash simply gets the luxury of stand around shooting his gun and nothing else. Unless it's an armor boss sortie or someone needs rezzin Edited September 13, 2017 by Nazrethim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasuda Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Bladestorm Tweak: Bladestorm could be made so that it automatically finds targets, but you move between and attack your targets more intentionally. Giving players more than a cutscene to watch without the aiming function (since it really doesn't make it more engaging and slows Ash down a ton) Bladestorm would be activated with 4, while targeting an enemy. (you just have to start it looking at an enemy) You teleport to the first enemy automatically along with dealing your first slash to the enemy. If the enemy is still alive you may chose to continue attacking the current enemy with your quick melee button (each attack costs 1 energy). Finisher damage with slash procs and all, basically the same damage numbers Or hit 3 to move to the next enemy (each teleport also costs 5 energy)(killing the enemy would automatically send you to your next target, or deactivate Bladestorm if there are none). Again automatically it will give the first slash on teleport. Hitting 4 a second time could end Bladestorm early. This allows you to potentially choose how long you activate, the number of targets, all while maintaining speed and doing more than watch an animation. The energy drain would be an initial 25, then subsequent teleports being 5, and additional slashes 1 (numbers likely need tweaking, I'm mostly pushing the mechanics of control). The speed of attacking and teleporting also needs to be very, very fast. Nothing too fancy for animation, as long as it's quick it'll look good. Invisibility could still halve the cost. The only additional thing is it would need some sort of timer to deactivation of Bladestorm (either on individual enemies (you have a limited time at an individual enemy max of 2 seconds before teleporting) or just overall 20 seconds), OR an energy drain over time (I don't think it should be this with the suggested energy cost model I made or it gets way too energy expensive), OR vulnerable to damage so that you can't sit at an enemy and take no damage. This would leave Smoke bomb as your main method of emergency escape (possibly in junction with switch teleport) . I also think smoke bomb should be made more effective for escaping with a better lasting stun function or blinding function. Differentiate it from Loki's invisibility. The augment change of anyone who goes through the smoke gets invisibility sounds great, much. Some tweaks to shuriken and teleport I've seen also seem good I'd have to go look at them more to quote the tweaks that sound best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyBaloon Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: It did it's job and it did it well. The only thing it did was make you untouchable, glitch and fall through the map. And it still does its job well. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: He was popular before actually. It was the Rathuum abuse (which, considering Rathuum didn't allow restores, focus took time to charge and orbs were normalized was only allowed by Efficiency). In what circles?? The saryn is nerfed and I need a frame that can get me through this mission faster?? If you haven't noticed the majority of people play the frames most suitable for certain missions. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: 2 received a straight QoL imrovement, for 3 it wasn't so, as you rely on RNG to have an object were you want to go (oddly enough unbreakable objects aren¡t included) and often bugs you inside objects or scr^ws you by selecting the object as a target rather than the enemy next to it. It is a teleport to a unit ability.. not much you can QoL with it, besides maybe adding i-frames until he lands. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: I already mathematicall proved that while there was a damage buff all the other negative sh*t they threw in pretty much made it pointless. The ability is the weakest it has been since closed Beta, and in those times it only dealt Slash damage mind you. Cost per multiple targets increased ,sure, that I cannot argue on, but overall the ability utterly kills lvl 145 heavy gunners and bombards which the old BS couldn't even touch, unless you spammed it like crazy. The ability isn't weak, it cannot be spammed or abused, get your words right. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: or cause them to shoot into that cloud, potentially killing Ash if he didn't teleport or bulletjumped out of it. And then does nothing. But you can cast it on the move... are you making arguments just to argue at this point. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: You missed the point entirely. Efficiency is broken because it scales exponentially while every other power stat scales linearly. Quote It is a flat energy reduction by a percentage, at 25% you reduce 25 energy out of 100, at 50% you reduce 50 out of 100 that is as linear as it gets. Issue you are thinking of is that most skills don't scale off of % hp. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Actually, it has, it is capped at 50 marked enemies (total of 150 marks active at any given time). Seems better but it isn't because the cost per attack has risen by 200% with just a meager 10% damage buff. That I did not know, still a lot better than what it used to be. And again.. more damage per single target, than hitting 18 or w.e the cap was at 1800 per target. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Which rarely happened to me because I wasn't a spammer moron. I cleared enemies I may get stuck on before casting. Quote It didn't matter if you spammed or not, if you did any endless void mission and you got stuck on a healer, you got stuck watch the animation. Maybe you are just that perfect with the ability to see ancient healers and kill them before you bladestorm (sarcastic comment intended) On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: But of course, to you a SINGLE viable build in a game that supposedly gives you lots of options is fine. Sure you know what actual balance is. You get a cookie. It is a generic set up that I put on the majority of my frames in loadout A, that way I know I go into a mission without having to double check which set up I want. And as far as balance is concerned, a game like warframe will never have one, the closer you get is making people happy. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Which means the whole point of keeping the cutscenes is not there, as you don't actually see the animations, just a blob of smoke doing something similar to stabbing a dude, or humping them. And the marking system is terrible. There were better ways to make it not spammable than adding the worst set up ever. Yeh, well the cutscene issue has always been there, some people like, others don't. DE could always remove it and have you be able to walk around but maybe that is too much. And yes the marking system is terrible HENCE WHY I SUGGESTED GIVE HIM MESA LIKE TARGETING. Improve on the current version as much as possible before changing it. It is clear why he got reworked, let us improve on what we currently have. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: The fact is that Ash went from being one of the most played frames and dropped to one of the least played. Which is not surprising, but consider that even long times fans of the frame that didn't build around bladespam jumped off the boat. That sends a clear message: DE scr*wed up BIG TIME with Ash And before him was saryn and her popularity dropped too. Your point? The only message it sent is that DE does not want to have abilities that allow you to make the game quote on quote pointless. Which is why we need to improve on the mission aspect so that it feels good to complete a mission rather than oh look I ran through this nitainmission with my ember and did nothing, GGNORE On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Well, at low levels, and up to, around Saturn, Shuriken is flat out better than BS. Then SS and FT take over as the go-to killing tools It can work even in senda,pluto and eris and i've tried it, multiple times. There is nothing wrong with having an ability that is not used, otherwise take all them range increasing mods and efficiency increasing mods and power strength increasing mods and toss 'em out of the window, because you won't get much in terms of build diversity. On a generic set up on most frames you tend to use 3 out of 4 abilities, which is pretty good if you ask me. There can be an improvement on the augment for it, but with PoE on the way I doubt is on DE's radar. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Not really. Considering it's not recastable, last laughably short time, stagger is largely pointless and Smoke Shadow cannot be helped even with more range. Making a cloud that serves other purpose (LoS denial for enemies, accuracy debuffs or hell even finisher openings) and makes SShadow an option for allies even after cast (cause they could just run inside the cloud and get the invis) not only fits the frame, makes sense, but it wouldn't be overkill. Well, maybe the finisher openings would, but accuracy debuffs and LoS troubles for enemies wouldn't. So lets give ash all the tools and forget about every frame that exist then eh?? On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Efficiency is objectively broken. I don't care if DE's intention is to have it that way (it is aparently), when I spot a crystal clear imbalance I point it out. Take out efficiency, next thing on the list is range, because some abilities like rhino's stomp have too much range and do too much. Just because you don't like it, doesn't me it is bad. As far as energy is concerned, rage really isn't much of an issue since at later stages of the game you flat out die trying to sponge bullets, energize can be toned down but frames like ember did fine even when energize wasn't around, all it gives you is the ability to not have to run a veil or a suda weapon to have consistency in energy sustain. Zenurik is broken, that I can agree on, 4 regen a second is too nuts, but so is being perma invisible with naromon, but focus rework has been on the talk for ages now. And even if you nerf the greater pads to 75, people will still spam them. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Limbo and Oberon say hi. Quote Oberon's and limbo's kit stayed virtually the same. Their abilities basically got a QoL so they are not so useless, and how many oberons do you see running around, not much, same with limbo. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Well, consider that Ash threads still pop up regularly, and that this thread is nearly a year old and it's STILL going. It pops up because people like me, go to revisit an old flame and are like this is why I quit playing you. My gripe with ash was that I had to jerk my mouse to multitarget. Stealth missions nowadays I run with loki because 30s invis is just better and even he doesn't see much play for me. It is mostly nova/frost/volt(on occasions) and ember, because those 4 frames do almost anything any other frame does better in pugs. On 9/12/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nazrethim said: Like I already did? It is going to take way too much time for me to look over it, but on a first glance, seems like you want too much from ash. As i've stated, improve on what you currently have slowly and steadily before making huge leaps. At the moment give ash MULTI-TARGETIN like mesa has. Then if that doesn't make him popular, go for other changes. Don't just scrap the whole kit, you don't build a house starting with the roof. On other note I've seen you around here a lot, almost seems like you wanna bury other peoples post in arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyBaloon Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 4:31 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said: It does that too actually, you set up to 3 marks by targeting one enemy. That's the key element to the multihit mechanic, where your shadows attack after you.. The tiny window to target enemys is really all that's making issues imo. Btw, if you didn't allready do, you gotta try using BS with melee rivens that give attack speed. That paired with primed fury and optionally other tools actually makes it strike up to allmost 3 times as fast, what makes it perform the same as it did prior at the bare minimum...he knows that. I told him and someone else confirmed it for him Idk how much of a troll post this is but I haven't tried using a melee riven with attack speed. A primed fury rank 8 usually works fine for me. And it doesn't multi-target, you have to hover over each target to mark. All I am asking for is give him the ability to mark multiple targets. Kinda like mesa can target multiple enemies, but you get a circle like thing and you can mark multiple units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazrethim Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: It is a flat energy reduction by a percentage, at 25% you reduce 25 energy out of 100, at 50% you reduce 50 out of 100 that is as linear as it gets. Issue you are thinking of is that most skills don't scale off of % hp. Flat reductions have exponential gains. Here is a better explanation (on the spoiler, the one written by @Azamagon) 4 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: It is going to take way too much time for me to look over it, but on a first glance, seems like you want too much from ash. As i've stated, improve on what you currently have slowly and steadily before making huge leaps. At the moment give ash MULTI-TARGETIN like mesa has. Then if that doesn't make him popular, go for other changes. Don't just scrap the whole kit, you don't build a house starting with the roof. Actually, I didn't change a lot. In fact one of the pillars of that proposal I made is that it must be something DE could pull off in a single hotfix. It doesn't create any new asset, it just reuses already existing ones in a more creative way. And I've suggested small changes to make it better: -Multi targeting (like the one you proposed) -Speed up execution by making the clones show up to assist rather than just follow (so Ash does only 1/3rd of the cutscenes) -Turn it into a 100 Energy 6-10s marking mode (to make the cost reasonable so it doesn't require max efficiency and 2 mechanics to recharge energy just be remotedly usable) 4 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said: On other note I've seen you around here a lot, almost seems like you wanna bury other peoples post in arguments. Not really, I just answer to people quoting me most of the time. If you see me popping a lot is because of backs and forth like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMightyBaloon Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 6:57 PM, Azamagon said: 1) Then ... what are you implying? You said speed is Volt's thing (even though his MAIN focus is Electricity, but w/e). Yeah, Volt has his Speed-ability, that's the only part of him that makes him generally fast. But he is not the only 'frame that can be really fast: You have Nova with Wormhole, Octavia's Metronome buffs, Ash's Teleport, or if in terms of dexterity, you have Harrow's Penance. What I was trying to say was that Ash can be doing more or less what he does now (an Assassin-esque frame that doesn't hit supermany enemies, but he hits them hard), I just suggested to just let him do his job faster. Then you started saying "No, no, the speed aspect belongs to Volt" ... what? 2) Not supposed to work against end game enemies... says who? Why should you not be using your whole kit ALL the time? If you are saying that an ability in your kit is supposed to be good in the start, but useless in the endgame(or, as is somewhat the case of Teleport, vice versa; Kinda pointless early on, but good later on) ... well, I'd put it mildly by calling you a bad balancing designer. 3) Eh? Are we talking about Nyx here? No. Even if she (and most other Warframes) have kit redundancy issues (of which only Psychic Bolts truly has issues), we are talking about Ash here. So let's focus on him, shall we? 4) Even if both Smoke Screen and Teleport would have some AoE stuns, they wouldn't be redundant. Invisibility and mobility, remember? They would still have seperate distinct uses. And alright, thanks for not hiding that you just glanced over it. But, please, in the future don't glance at someone's posts, yet take the time to berate them. That's poor argumenting which really doesn't work in your favor, alright? 5) Which is why I suggested that the landing (however brief it may be), shouldn't stop your movement. 6) First; Having a slight overlap is fine, as long as there are other uses to an ability. For example; All 4 abilities of Ash can either directly or indirectly make you kill stuff (Smoke Screen, well, not really, but it does amp your melee damage, is what I'm trying to say). But if that is all they did, only the best one would be used over and over (as was the case of old Bladestorm, pretty much). However, they currently do have other niches; Smoke Screen's invisibility is great for survivability, since you are far less likely to be targetted Teleport also grants mobility, albeit a bit clunkily so Bladestorm grants temporary invulnerability, and its zip-zap mobility (allowing longdistance looting and such) Shuriken, but ONLY with the augment (and ONLY against armored foes) can aid with taking down tough targets from a distance, without the need to get close (in contrast to Teleport). This is mainly only a good strategy to use against bosses though. However, take away the augment (something an ability shouldn't have to rely on to be useful) and it provides no utility whatsoever on higher levels. Even WITH the augment, outside of boss-fights, Bladestorm (yes, the current one) and finishers (provided via Teleport) ignore armor anyway, thus meaning that the Shuriken even with the augment is VERY niched. AND it's a 100% useless augment against shielded foes. Thus my utility-suggestions for it. Onto my suggestions / your questions for Bladestorm: No, I do not want the old ability, that one was far too easy to use. I've suggested to improve the current one. What I have suggested is: You still have to mark enemies, though more easily done with the bigger reticle (as we both have suggested), so LOS still plays a role. The Smoke Clones only attack enemies you have marked (so again, LOS still plays a role for them as well), so in essence, they are simply added to speed up the Bladestorming animations. (and I already explained why it would be bad to simply speed up the actual animations). Then the change in energycost and adding a max marking timer. As for this part you said:"So do clones only attack market targets and if so why not improve on the current one" Ummmm.... You mean... improve the current Bladestorm just like how I was suggesting to improve the current Bladestorm?! Your confusion confuses me... All in all, what I have suggested is; Easier marking (you have suggested this reticle thing as well), faster attacks (via Smoke Clones joining earlier, and more of them joining over time) and less extreme in energycost (with a fixed energycost, but a limitted marking time as a counterpoint). Also, by fixing the energycost back to 100 energy (but giving a maximum marking time), it means that it won't be superior (damage-to-energy-wise) to Shuriken at all times either, and by doing so, Shuriken (due to its onehanded cast and suggested utilities and improvements) would see more serious use, even without its augment. Both early game and endgame. 7) Yes? * Smoke Screen - He has a much better invisibility tool now (I think @Nazrethim's suggestions are possibly a bit too much for it, yes, I can agreed with that), and I mainly only want him to get QoL-improvements for the superduper clunky augment. With the suggestions I have proposed, the augment would be far less clunky AND it would come of use even when playing solo. * Teleport - Without the augment, it still is limitted. Just because it got a pretty nice augment doesn't mean that the base ability's issues should be ignored. This is exactly why people often call augments BANDAIDS! * Shuriken - This is STILL only seriously used with its augments against bosses. Outside of bosses and its augment, Shuriken is basicly just a meager toy, mostly just used to quickly swat Corpus cameras. So, same case here, augments are NOT a justification for the base ability to be so bad and limitted. * Bladestorm - It can still irritate players. But now it mostly irritates the USER of Bladestorm. * Passive - All Warframes have a passive. And he got a decent one. This is irrelevant to his revisit, really. The only good thing Ash truly got from this revisit s his onehanded invisibility. That's it. The rest was horrible or even untouched. Shuriken is still a superniched (WITH its augment) unloved toy, Teleport is still highly reliant on its augment to do its killing job properly (and still is rather clunky and limitted for mobility), and Bladestorm is mostly just a slow, energywasting mess. Why do you defend that? 8) Well, he IS right about the extreme energycosts though. And with a bigger marking reticle (while good and something I agreed with), how on earth would that solve the energyissues? If anything, doesn't that make the energy-issues even more apparent? And if what you are saying, that the extreme energycosts should be its downsides, that's just completely unfair. It already takes some time to prepare AND to launch, why would it ALSO need its currently absurd energycosts tacked on top of that? This proves @Nazrethim's point even more about how Smoke Screen+slideattacking is then a much better approach as your optimal "multikilling" option. If a 100 energycost but countered by a limitted marking period would be "too abuseable", then at least make it less harsh than now. Say: About 50 to 75 base energycost, 5 energy per target marked (but with all 3 marks at once), possibly still with a max marking period (but now with a bit more time leeway than the first suggestion). That way, it's still best used for bigger clumps of enemies, but if you go for too many you might spend all your energy. Use it on too few enemies, and it'd be rather wasted in terms of energycosts. Thus potentially energystarving if used wrong, but quicker to use and still more fair in energycosts than it is now. What do you say, would that be more reasonable? 1) On paper it is, volt isn't in his best position right now. And yes I do agree his animations can be increased via speed buffs and what not, not much of an issue give you can slot fury and it does a decent job. Or run berserker, pick yer poison. 2) Not everything is supposed to work at end game, shuriken has a decent mod that can be used, nothing bad with it, it also deals slash damage, which ignores armor and if can proc viral, that is even better. Abilities that are good early game but fall end game need mods that allow them to be more utility based for the later stages of the game, and shuriken currently has one, it can be improved on, the mod that is, not the skill, but not the point of the original discussion. Which at this point is buried in arguments about efficiency and whose opinion matters. Which was to give him multi targeting as you've suggested in your rework. 3) It was an example, to support that other frames have redundancies that do not work well for the frame itself. 4)Having 2 stuns is the definition of redundancy. And given that teleport is more spammable, I can see how one will prevail over the other. And I am sorry about glancing over it, Nazrethim really shouldn't have brought you into this, it was not relevant to my initial discussion. I just want to improve him bit by bit. It took long enough for him to get a rework, that was semi-okay. Bladestorm got downed to the point where you cannot spam it, we get it DE, point taken. It did ruin new players experience. 5) Yeh I can see that but you still get the flip animation which is where he mainly gets damaged. If they remove that and give him like a smokescreen pop-up to the enemy, that can fix it, or give him i-frames during the flip. The skill was okayish before the augment, and after the augment, most of my set ups run it, because it is that good. 6)Giving and extra shuriken and adding combo multi is kinda of redundant since you want to use a fast weapon on ash, and most of those do a pretty good job in stacking combo multi. Having it be "skill based" to aim won't change much of the fact that you can spam it and use the auto targeting but that you can now have the ability to kill a shield ospry that is making other targets "invulnerable" which is probably a glitch in the game, rather than the mechanics of the unit. Yeh, smokescreen is mostly used to escape death in most of the bladestorm builds, and some do run it for more than the initial duration and cut on the power strength aspect. While teleport might feel clunky to you, it looks okay to me, it does what it is supposed to do. I feel like giving a "blink" like ability on demand can and will allow for multiple glitches that then DE needs to patch up, so might as well keep the current version. And for bladestorm, at 100 energy, it will be in a sense spammable, thought your suggestion isn't bad, I doubt it will see the light of day. Point is giving him the multi-targeting tool so you don't jerk yer mouse around to target enemies. Something DE wanted to remove with coptering because it made it feel uncomfortable, or in a sense it allowed you to cover too much distance clearing content faster, so you should just spend money on the game. 7) Because the rework wasn't as bad as it seemed. People wanted synergy and look at what happened to saryn, if you look at any saryn build out there you'd be like why is that there, what do you want to do. Optimizing something that has too much synergy is a pain, and basically reduces the ability to use the majority of the mods. Slowly improve on what you currently have, as I've stated, some of your suggestions are nice, others I cannot agree on mostly because they do not fit the ash theme in my opinion, it comes down to the devs and what they decide on. 8) It was more of a suggestion, it is ultimately to the devs to decide whether extra cost on a larger circle is better or not, it would of course require testing and because ash is one of the frames that in a sense depends on the max efficiency mostly because it costs too much to kill stuff with his limited energy pool. And yeh, that can work, be it at 100 or 75 with extra energy per target to mark with some time you get to mark tagerts or even without it. My whole point was to have it multi target so you don't have to do stuff like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said: Idk how much of a troll post this is but I haven't tried using a melee riven with attack speed. A primed fury rank 8 usually works fine for me. And it doesn't multi-target, you have to hover over each target to mark. All I am asking for is give him the ability to mark multiple targets. Kinda like mesa can target multiple enemies, but you get a circle like thing and you can mark multiple units. huh pretty sure i read that at some point way back when the rework released.... the riven i consider a mandatory tho. A riven with a good disposition and 2+1- split gives you up to additional 90% attack speed... pair that with primed fury (55%)and arcane strike (20%) and you're at a speed boost of 165%, there's also the possibility to add other mods (channeling etc) to get nearly 200%.. that's 3 times as fast. Exactly how fast it was with 2 clones...take the extra marks and the..getting stuck thing into consideration and it can actually be a lot faster now. only real difference to his old peak is that you can't spend days doing nothing but spamming it, what was the whole point of the rework, that it's issues got fixed, that combo got a massive boost with body count ever since, what gives it the multiple damage compared to back then and that range got removed off of blade storm fit builds, what actually works in his favor and easily gives room to make up for the extra energy cost plus more. hell call me crazy but i even prefer the middle ground between melee and BS over p4tw gameplay wise... Not trying to troll at all. I'm pointing out just how many things work in its favor that simply didn't exist pre rework and that Naz, among many others, is perfectly aware of that but chooses to ignore it and belittles its potential for the sake of his own Agenda. (for reference, check out his rework threat. That one goes back to when DE announced the ash rework.) Edited September 14, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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