Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

What would a new augment be tho? Enemies choking on the smoke?...That'd fit 

 

1 hour ago, Scytze said:

I feel fart jokes incoming.
But yeah that or perhaps short timed blind.

That would only work if it's turned into an actual, localized, smoke screen. And it could have 2 augments imo.

Picture this: SScreen creates on cast a smoke cloud of about 3-4m radius at Ash's location that lasts 12s. Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud (the Duration on the ability icon would be the cloud duration, and the invisibility being an 8s buff applied and refreshed every second he is in the cloud). Enemies inside may be blinded or have reduced accuracy, or the cloud working as a LoS blocker, whatever.

Then 2 augments: SShadow (extends the invis on the cloud and lingering after leaving it to allies) and Choking Gas (stuns enemies inside the cloud, perhaps opening to finishers too?). That way SScreen would be an Area Denial, LoS Blocker or a Invis spot for allies to go.

Mechanically it's not hard to do.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

@Nazrethim Mechanics for a rework are more than doable, they are justifiably more sound than people care to realize. While, I don't necessarily want every detail you outline, for the majority of what Ash should be, you take the cake. Plus it is not hard to implement. Considering how much of an energy monger Ash is right now, and the quality of changing the fast paced, high octane game play Warframe has into slow clunky animations, and the works/etc of Ash, I'll take those changes in a butterfly's heartbeat.

[Shad0wWatcher]

12 hours ago, Scytze said:

I feel fart jokes incoming.
But yeah that or perhaps short timed blind.

Only thought of them right when you said it

 

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

That would only work if it's turned into an actual, localized, smoke screen. And it could have 2 augments imo.

Picture this: SScreen creates on cast a smoke cloud of about 3-4m radius at Ash's location that lasts 12s. Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud (the Duration on the ability icon would be the cloud duration, and the invisibility being an 8s buff applied and refreshed every second he is in the cloud). Enemies inside may be blinded or have reduced accuracy, or the cloud working as a LoS blocker, whatever.

Then 2 augments: SShadow (extends the invis on the cloud and lingering after leaving it to allies) and Choking Gas (stuns enemies inside the cloud, perhaps opening to finishers too?). That way SScreen would be an Area Denial, LoS Blocker or a Invis spot for allies to go.

Mechanically it's not hard to do.

That's kinda what everyone wants smoke screen to become...sadly...the devs haven't really been that attentive....from what i see at least. The part of the community that mains Ash and requests a second look into his abilities kinda get the shaft

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Only thought of them right when you said it

 

That's kinda what everyone wants smoke screen to become...sadly...the devs haven't really been that attentive....from what i see at least. The part of the community that mains Ash and requests a second look into his abilities kinda get the shaft

Because a large part of the community that plays Ash does more than fine with him and are top performers in their missions.

DE has the metrics, you guys have the exaggerated claims on the forum about his ineffective he is.

[Shad0wWatcher]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Because a large part of the community that plays Ash does more than fine with him and are top performers in their missions.

DE has the metrics, you guys have the exaggerated claims on the forum about his ineffective he is.

Please be specific with the "you guys" bit cause i have stated many times that i can live with this and work around that which i don't like. Also most of those players are the ones that don't actually use bladestorm that much. But the thing is just that the only real changes here that people suggest are changes to bladestorm and making it what it could be. I admit that some are kinda...out of this game...but it's all in good spirit. While i also admit that some comments stating that Ash is broken and that we should probably abandon ship are also kinda stupid, i still main Ash long after his revisit. But if Volt can get a second revisit...would wouldn't Ash be allowed to...tho this technically was his second one...hm...i'm sure there's been a warframe that has had 3 revisits...you get my point.

[Nazrethim]

24 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Because a large part of the community that plays Ash does more than fine with him and are top performers in their missions.

DE has the metrics, you guys have the exaggerated claims on the forum about his ineffective he is.

Not thanks to failstorm. It's thanks to the combined effect of his other abilities. BS is dead weight in almost every single situation you may be in. We never said Ash is ineffective, we in fact recognize Ash is very powerful. What we claim, with both mathematical and empirical proof, is that Blade Storm, despite having high damage, is ineffective and doesn't fit with the game, being a single target nuke in a horde game, for a frame that already had and still has a single target nuke, and the overreliance on Augments (FTeleport and SShuriken in particular, as SShadow is very niche and unaffected by Power Range and Rising Storm is as much dead weight as Blade Storm itself is)

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

 

 

Please be specific with the "you guys" bit cause i have stated many times that i can live with this and work around that which i don't like. Also most of those players are the ones that don't actually use bladestorm that much. But the thing is just that the only real changes here that people suggest are changes to bladestorm and making it what it could be. I admit that some are kinda...out of this game...but it's all in good spirit. While i also admit that some comments stating that Ash is broken and that we should probably abandon ship are also kinda stupid, i still main Ash long after his revisit. But if Volt can get a second revisit...would wouldn't Ash be allowed to...tho this technically was his second one...hm...i'm sure there's been a warframe that has had 3 revisits...you get my point.

Volts revisit was just a few tweaks. Every frame in this game could use tweaks. Personally, i would like to see animation speed tweaked, and a tweak enemy accuract at end of bladestorm. 

I highly doubt he'll get or even needs anything beyond a few numbers juggling. At most they add a few "synergies" here and there. There is definitely opportunity to make marks work with his other skills

Edited December 5, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Shad0wWatcher]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Volts revisit was just a few tweaks. Every frame in this game could use tweaks. Personally, i would like to see animation speed tweaked, and a tweak enemy accuract at end of bladestorm. 

I highly doubt he'll get or even needs anything beyond a few numbers juggling. At most they add a few "synergies" here and there. There is definitely opportunity to make marks work with his other skills

If it helps in speeding up the ability and having the damage scale a bit better, then i'll be a happy ninja

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Personally, i would like to see animation speed tweaked, and a tweak enemy accuract at end of bladestorm. 

Making 2-3 clones show up to divide the work would achieve that. SScreen could be paused while BS is executing so the player isn't dumped on it's demise.

Other tweaks could include:

-Shuriken getting an extra projectile that goes straight with no homig, so if your homig ones decide to go into an invulnerable camera or a completely unrelated enemy you at least have an aimed one to hit what you want.

-Smoke Shadow being affected by Power Range (or better yet, change SScreen to leave an actual smoke cloud that allies can walk into to get invisibility).

-Teleport getting the automatic finisher by default, with Fatal Teleport just adding extra finisher damage and energy refund on kill.

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I highly doubt he'll get or even needs anything beyond a few numbers juggling.

The base cost of mark is too high for it's effect. Reducing it to 5(no invi interaction) or 10 (-5 if invi) would be enough.

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

At most they add a few "synergies" here and there. There is definitely opportunity to make marks work with his other skills

What ideas do you have in mind?

[Hypernaut1]

46 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

 

 

 

Making 2-3 clones show up to divide the work would achieve that. SScreen could be paused while BS is executing so the player isn't dumped on it's demise.

My idea would be to offload some of the kill load to clones the more enemies you mark- but i would keep the cut-scene. This way you're not having to view ALL of the kills, only most of them. I do like seeing my clones attack an enemy after im done, even with this current bladestorm. my change would only extend that somewhat without turning it into a World on Fire clone and keeping Ash's invincibility. 

46 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

 

 

 

other tweaks could include:

-Shuriken getting an extra projectile that goes straight with no homig, so if your homig ones decide to go into an invulnerable camera or a completely unrelated enemy you at least have an aimed one to hit what you want.

-Smoke Shadow being affected by Power Range (or better yet, change SScreen to leave an actual smoke cloud that allies can walk into to get invisibility).

Shuriken could use some improvement on aim, but i rarely have issues still. my change to shuriken (at least as an augment) would be to have it rapid fire like a spira, with each successive cast increasing strength. 

Smoke Shadow leaving a shadow should be how the augment works.

46 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

 

 

 

Teleport getting the automatic finisher by default, with Fatal Teleport just adding extra finisher damage and energy refund on kill.

The base cost of mark is too high for it's effect. Reducing it to 5(no invi interaction) or 10 (-5 if invi) would be enough.

Teleport opens enemies up to finisher by default. Before the augment, i used this feature a lot, to the point where i thought the augment was entirely useless at first. The augment made me lazy now.

the energy cost for mark is up for debate. I personally dont have much issue with it, but wouldn't be opposed to it being cheaper.

46 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

\What ideas do you have in mind?

synergies with marking? im not sure exactly, but it seems like a missed opportunity. I wouldnt want to just make it a buff to the other skills because then it would make it feel like you "have" to mark before doing anything. 

i had an idea of using his 1 to "throw" clones at single marked enemies at a slightly increased cost. Problem with that is you lose base shuriken when you mark, but combined with rapid firing shurikens, you kind of have an organic mini bladestorm you can rain on enemies. That is the wildest idea i personally have for Ash. Would make an awesome augment if they ever get back to making those.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

My idea would be to offload some of the kill load to clones the more enemies you mark- but i would keep the cut-scene. This way you're not having to view ALL of the kills, only most of them. I do like seeing my clones attack an enemy after im done, even with this current bladestorm. my change would only extend that somewhat without turning it into a World on Fire clone and keeping Ash's invincibility. 

Well, that was pretty much what I said. The number of clones would determine how fast the thing goes. If 3 clones assist, then Ash gets 25% of the action, if it's 2 it's 33%.

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Shuriken could use some improvement on aim, but i rarely have issues still. my change to shuriken (at least as an augment) would be to have it rapid fire like a spira, with each successive cast increasing strength. 

I like it.

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Smoke Shadow leaving a shadow should be how the augment works.

Yeah, Volt got that for Speed, while it didn't quite work out due to Speed being an annoyance sometimes, invisibility doesn't actually disrupt much.

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Teleport opens enemies up to finisher by default. Before the augment, i used this feature a lot, to the point where i thought the augment was entirely useless at first. The augment made me lazy now.

I still go without FT sometimes, mostly when I use SShadow or SShuriken (since I only have 1 slot for Augment in general)

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the energy cost for mark is up for debate. I personally dont have much issue with it, but wouldn't be opposed to it being cheaper.

It wouldn't be a problem if additional marks didn't cost any energy and were just a bonus. Notice I said reducing the cost per mark to 5, that way at 3 marks it's 15. Same result could be just removing the cost of additional marks, but reducing the cost would be much easier.

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synergies with marking? im not sure exactly, but it seems like a missed opportunity. I wouldnt want to just make it a buff to the other skills because then it would make it feel like you "have" to mark before doing anything. 

i had an idea of using his 1 to "throw" clones at single marked enemies at a slightly increased cost. Problem with that is you lose base shuriken when you mark, but combined with rapid firing shurikens, you kind of have an organic mini bladestorm you can rain on enemies. That is the wildest idea i personally have for Ash. Would make an awesome augment if they ever get back to making those.

Could work if the 4th becomes a Marking Mode only, enhancing the other abilities, like replacing Shuriken with clones, or using Teleport activating current BS on marked enemies, etc etc.

Or they could just separate the Marking Mode from the ability at all, and make it a second passive quasi-resource for Ash activated in some form (think like Nidus, who has passive health regen and the mutation charges)

 

Another tweak we could get, is Rising Storm being changed from +50/65/80/100% (+1.5/1.95/2.4/3s) Combo Counter to +5/6.5/8/10s Combo Counter to make it worth the slot.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)Siriguillo]

Aside from high level survivals, every time I use ash he is the lowest damage dealer and has the lowest kill count. Every other frame will wipe the map before you get a chance to do anything is seems, its soo sad for such a cool frame.

[Shad0wWatcher]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Siriguillo said:

Aside from high level survivals, every time I use ash he is the lowest damage dealer and has the lowest kill count. Every other frame will wipe the map before you get a chance to do anything is seems, its soo sad for such a cool frame.

Lowest damage dealer and kill count every time you go with Ash? Sounds like you're only using bladestorm and never your weapons, and if you do use your weapons and abilities...then it just says something about you yourself as  a player lol. Cause i almost always use Ash and am usually in first or 2nd place in terms of damage dealt or kill count.

But yeah you are right about his bladestorm itself being too slow for it to be effective or even being used before a cc frame shows up and does double the damage in less than half the time.

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Siriguillo said:

Aside from high level survivals, every time I use ash he is the lowest damage dealer and has the lowest kill count. Every other frame will wipe the map before you get a chance to do anything is seems, its soo sad for such a cool frame.

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Siriguillo]

12 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Hyperbole like this doesn't move the conversation forward at all. That's more a reflection on your skills than it is on the frame if that's true

No man, I use equinox or saryn and wipe out the map, I use nova, or nekros and is me killing everything, but with ash it I only deal single target damage now, by the time I want to mark anything mesa, already cleaned the map.

[(PSN)Siriguillo]

1 hour ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Lowest damage dealer and kill count every time you go with Ash? Sounds like you're only using bladestorm and never your weapons, and if you do use your weapons and abilities...then it just says something about you yourself as  a player lol. Cause i almost always use Ash and am usually in first or 2nd place in terms of damage dealt or kill count.

But yeah you are right about his bladestorm itself being too slow for it to be effective or even being used before a cc frame shows up and does double the damage in less than half the time.

Well, most frame have a very heavy CC abilities with their powers, its a hordes games, hydroid, mesa, saryn, equinox and even excalibur clean the map with their powers before ash can to much with his, if we are talking weapon then all frames have almost the same potential so what is distinctive is their powers, and Ash is so slow at dispatching crowds now that its sad.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

It seems that most people get this idea that a frame is based off the weapons they use? That is not at all what makes a frame. It's ability to do something no other frame can do or is the best at said thing that multiple frames can do. Mele and gun fire is no where near what makes a frame good or bad. Stealth and combo counters are great tools but realistically that got boring AGES ago. go stealth and spam mele does not make a good game for most people. It's the style of each individual frame and there place in the game. Ash used to have a distinct role as the murderous assasin teleporting around dealing moderate damage to a specific number of enemies in just a few seconds. Yet this was somehow broken but classes like Chroma that can't die and can one shot the strongest enemy in the game with the same exact build is just fine and dandy? This "Ash is in a good place" community lacks both understanding of a multiplayer game and common sense. There is ALWAYS going to be a top frame. Ash was never the best and probably will never be the best but that doesn't mean where he is at is good. I say 1 and 3 are probably in a great place however 4 is just NEVER used and on Console the controler can't keep up with my inputs mostly leading to me dieing trying to FT to a second target and just reloading my weapon or flat out doing nothing which leads to a lvl 60 one shotting me. This is not fun gameplay. Sitting on a cliff with max range marking enemies takes WAY to long and does almost no damage with a full efficiency/range build to reduce the absurd energy cost of BS. I dare not go anywhere close to mele range with ash as it is instant death from an explosion you never see coming.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

4 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Lowest damage dealer and kill count every time you go with Ash? Sounds like you're only using bladestorm and never your weapons, and if you do use your weapons and abilities...then it just says something about you yourself as  a player lol. Cause i almost always use Ash and am usually in first or 2nd place in terms of damage dealt or kill count.

But yeah you are right about his bladestorm itself being too slow for it to be effective or even being used before a cc frame shows up and does double the damage in less than half the time.

Yet the same PLAYER can be the best with a different frame? Seems like it MUST be the player right?

Chroma, highest kill count, damage, and MOST damage taken never go down.

Octavia, Highest kill count (usually in the 700-800 range high level survivals), no downs, use only abilities with NO mele.

Mesa, highest damage, most kills

Titania, Highest damage, most kills, least damage taken

Loki, Highest damage, most kills, NO damage taken

Ivara, Highest damage, Most kills, No damage taken

The list can go on and on

But yet 

Ash, lowest damage, less than 20 kills, usually die completely expending all my revives with the exception of low end missions and when i just don't play the objective.

Yup has to be the player.

Edited December 7, 2017 by (XB1)Natfrog123
Chroma correction. Most damage taken not least

[(PSN)Siriguillo]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

It seems that most people get this idea that a frame is based off the weapons they use? That is not at all what makes a frame. It's ability to do something no other frame can do or is the best at said thing that multiple frames can do. Mele and gun fire is no where near what makes a frame good or bad. Stealth and combo counters are great tools but realistically that got boring AGES ago. go stealth and spam mele does not make a good game for most people. It's the style of each individual frame and there place in the game. Ash used to have a distinct role as the murderous assasin teleporting around dealing moderate damage to a specific number of enemies in just a few seconds. Yet this was somehow broken but classes like Chroma that can't die and can one shot the strongest enemy in the game with the same exact build is just fine and dandy? This "Ash is in a good place" community lacks both understanding of a multiplayer game and common sense. There is ALWAYS going to be a top frame. Ash was never the best and probably will never be the best but that doesn't mean where he is at is good. I say 1 and 3 are probably in a great place however 4 is just NEVER used and on Console the controler can't keep up with my inputs mostly leading to me dieing trying to FT to a second target and just reloading my weapon or flat out doing nothing which leads to a lvl 60 one shotting me. This is not fun gameplay. Sitting on a cliff with max range marking enemies takes WAY to long and does almost no damage with a full efficiency/range build to reduce the absurd energy cost of BS. I dare not go anywhere close to mele range with ash as it is instant death from an explosion you never see coming.

This, I dont understand when I say ash is a bad performer people talk about my weapons, any frame can use them, if I rely on weapons when all frames are the same except of survivability difference. Ash at the moment is crippled, his powers are not good enough for a horder game, and on console his 4 is useless.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

Just now, (PS4)Siriguillo said:

This, I dont understand when I say ash is a bad performer people talk about my weapons, any frame can use them, if I rely on weapons when all frames are the same except of survivability difference. Ash at the moment is crippled, his powers are not good enough for a horder game, and on console his 4 is useless.

On console a lot of Ash is broken. You cannot input in a manner that fits the game.

[blaes]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Loki, Highest damage, most kills, NO damage taken

[...]

Ash, lowest damage, less than 20 kills, usually die completely expending all my revives [...]

Yup has to be the player.

The only damage/kills Loki has comes from weapons (the damage from radial disarm is completely anecdotal), so if you're not getting just as much damage/kills with ash, it comes from the player, yes.

And though ash doesn't have radial disarm and decoy to protect him while he recasts shadow smoke, that's easily solved by getting behind some cover. So ash shouldn't suffer more direct damage than loki. And ash has more health and armour, making him more resilient to stuff like fireblasts/toxin auras. So if you take zero damage on loki but consistently dies with ash, once again it's the player's fault.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

20 hours ago, blaes said:

The only damage/kills Loki has comes from weapons (the damage from radial disarm is completely anecdotal), so if you're not getting just as much damage/kills with ash, it comes from the player, yes.

And though ash doesn't have radial disarm and decoy to protect him while he recasts shadow smoke, that's easily solved by getting behind some cover. So ash shouldn't suffer more direct damage than loki. And ash has more health and armour, making him more resilient to stuff like fireblasts/toxin auras. So if you take zero damage on loki but consistently dies with ash, once again it's the player's fault.

Loki can stay invis for EVER. Well not really but THAT IS Loki's thing.Stealth mele IS Loki. That IS his play style which we already have so we don't need Ash to take this role. Ash is a teleporter, THAT is Ashes thing. So when you take that away by slowing it down to a crawl and walling it behind a MASSIVE energy wall you take away one of his skills. Now obviously you are one of the brain dead people that think this game is not extremely god like characters melting enemies in seconds and think somehow you are playing a turn based stategy game.... I mean it's obvious we are not playing the same game.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

20 hours ago, blaes said:

The only damage/kills Loki has comes from weapons (the damage from radial disarm is completely anecdotal), so if you're not getting just as much damage/kills with ash, it comes from the player, yes.

And though ash doesn't have radial disarm and decoy to protect him while he recasts shadow smoke, that's easily solved by getting behind some cover. So ash shouldn't suffer more direct damage than loki. And ash has more health and armour, making him more resilient to stuff like fireblasts/toxin auras. So if you take zero damage on loki but consistently dies with ash, once again it's the player's fault.

Also... Enemies do not attack what they cannot see. So no he NEVER takes damage. Ash is to much out of stealth to be a "stealth" frame and since his skills do not ALL use duration as his main goal he is forced to either not use it at all or dump heavily in it. If you dump heavily into stealth BS is once again useless in the damage category since your efficency or your power is null anyways which goes right back to it might as well not even be there in the first place.

Edited December 8, 2017 by (XB1)Natfrog123

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

Now do not get me wrong Teleport with FT mod is AMAZING for low level areas. Max Efficency and range is super fun on low level things. However the same cannot be said about areas over level 25. At these places we had BS which would allow us to stay in the fight while not being IN the fight. We helped out our teams MUCH more than we do now. Sure the invulnerable enemies needed to go but everything else was 100% perfect with the SKILL it self. How can anyone HONESTLY sit here and say Ash is better today at his core than he was before the nerf... I mean silly me, "rework".

[Shad0wWatcher]

On 12/7/2017 at 7:56 PM, (PS4)Siriguillo said:

Well, most frame have a very heavy CC abilities with their powers, its a hordes games, hydroid, mesa, saryn, equinox and even excalibur clean the map with their powers before ash can to much with his, if we are talking weapon then all frames have almost the same potential so what is distinctive is their powers, and Ash is so slow at dispatching crowds now that its sad.

Quite true