Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

Assuming you mean Finisher damage? Maybe check Hydroid and his execution and his DPS in conjunction with energy cost. Sure maybe he hits each enemy for 200 damage but he can hit 15 enemies or more at any given time not to mention when multiple tentacles hit a single enemy. All this doesn't even matter when you look at armor stripping capabilities but for the sake of this I will exclude all of that. Blade Storm does not wipe 4500 lvl enemy maps faster than Octavia's Mallet. In fact BS does jack all to those enemies. So to say it would be the best damage in the game is not even close to reality. BS cannot kill anywhere near as fast as Excalibur who just has to press 4 and slowly watch his energy drain.BS does not kill anywhere near as fast as Ice Chroma. BS does not kill anywhere near as fast as Sleep Equinox. The list can go on and on but yet here you are spouting nonsense. DPS is measure in time not a single blow or a single burst. If you spec for power on Ash then sure you have a single skill use nuke. Hands down no questions asked. But you can only use it maybe once. If you use Steel Charge chances are you will be running around doing nothing but spamming mele as your BS cost is WAY to high to use it effectively in a horde game. If you spec for efficency then you have no stealth duration which mean no close combat for you on anything over lvl 25 unless you have a healer or pods which we are going to exclude because it has nothing to do with Ash's core. 

The shown damage is a third of what it does per mark due to the slash proccs. On like 155% strength (typical seeking shuriken build) that's about 9300 finisher damage. With 3 marks 27,900 damage.

Add combo (up to x6) and you get to 167,400 finisher damage. Use a venka prime and you get to x9, what's 251,100 finisher damage per enemy, in a fragment of a second per enemy with even some attack speed (i run like p fury+strike these days and it's more then enough) while it's fully possible to play it with status weapons (zenistar, ignis) to set viral.

251,100 finisher damage, multitarget, on enemys with viral on them while you're able to shoot shurikens for days, thus support with armor drain, invisibility as defense and just oneshot most enemys with the ignis, venka boosted slides or x8 multiplier zenistar disc for insignificant less.

Just what?

Who of these frames can pull that off exactly?

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The shown damage is a third of what it does per mark due to the slash proccs. On like 155% strength (typical seeking shuriken build) that's about 9300 finisher damage. With 3 marks 27,900 damage.

Add combo (up to x6) and you get to 167,400 finisher damage. Use a venka prime and you get to x9, what's 251,100 finisher damage per enemy, in a fragment of a second per enemy with even some attack speed (i run like p fury+strike these days and it's more then enough) while it's fully possible to play it with status weapons (zenistar, ignis) to set viral.

251,100 finisher damage, multitarget, on enemys with viral on them while you're able to shoot shurikens for days, thus support with armor drain, invisibility as defense and just oneshot most enemys with the x8 multiplier zenistar disc.

Just what?

Who of these frames can pull that off exactly?

That is not how BS works.

Each mark does exactly the damage it sates. if you put 3 marks on a target it does said damage 3 times.

Like I stated above

Octavia can EZ unlimited level enemies.

Also a single skill use in 3 mins is not high DPS no matter how much it does when you have ZERO energy to use it again. On paper that sounds huge but in practical use you cannot achieve those numbers. I'm sorry but you just can't. I'd love to see some of your personal Ash videos though.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by (XB1)Natfrog123

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

That is not how BS works.

Each mark does exactly the damage it sates. if you put 3 marks on a target it does said damage 3 times.

Like I stated above

Octavia can EZ unlimited level enemies.

Also a single skill use in 3 mins is not high DPS no matter how much it does when you have ZERO energy to use it again. On paper that sounds huge but in practical use you cannot achieve those numbers. I'm sorry but you just can't. I'd love to see some of your personal Ash videos though.

 

That IS how it works. The shown damage is the base that sets the boosted slash proccs, that tick for 2x the damage over theyr duration.

Bigger base, bigger everything. The combo is a direct multiplier to that.

The slash proccs might work different tho, i'm quoting naz on that one.

Edit: nope.

Wiki entry

The Bleed DoT inflicts 43.75% of the initial damage per tick for a total of 7 ticks over 6 seconds. The Bleed damage bypasses armor and shields.

it's actually 100+306,25%, 4 times the total damage, what's a whooping 12,400 per mark, 37,200 with 3 marks, up to 223,200 with normal weapons and 334,800 with venka p. A lil more then that really, multiplied x4 for simplicity.

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

When the combo mele is pumped up yes you can push out some impressive numbers, (we all here agree) yes but unless you have MAX efficency you are not able to hit that consistantly (though that has nothing to do with the topic) and in practical multi-player play you are not keeping a 6X combo multiplier. So again I'd love to see your vids. You can't do it on the plains for sure, not consistantly. You are also referring to something that takes a massive amount of time to achieve and to be fair any mele character can kill LONG before the 6X mark and again the combo multiplier is not a unique thing to Ash. I can use my atterax and before I hit 4X everything is dead in one to two quick meles or one slide attack so I'm not sure why you are taking this back to damage when this was never a discussion about damage but practicality of multi marking. The damage on BS is just fine as it is. Not one person has asked for a damage buff that i have read. 

What i have gathered is everyone has an issue with slowing down the pace to "3 mark" enemies. 

Or

Watching a long cut scene.

That's it... so why is damage even being brought up? You keep trying to pull me into this rabbit hole but that is not why this thread is here.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

When i say DPS I do not mean in a 3 minute segment. I do not mean that Ash does not have some insane burst numbers. He does. No one is arguing that point.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

When i say DPS I do not mean in a 3 minute segment. I do not mean that Ash does not have some insane burst numbers. He does. No one is arguing that point.

 

vor 40 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

That is not how BS works.

Each mark does exactly the damage it sates. if you put 3 marks on a target it does said damage 3 times.

 

You do obviously. And boosting the multiplier hasn't been an issue ever since new naramon has been introduced. It gets stronger the longer the game goes with as much as a single combo mod. No max efficiency needet. I've been running streamline, rage (now hunter adrenaline) vit, steel fiber, P flow for as long as the rework has come to consoles and i have yet to suffer from any energy issue whatsoever.

That it doesn't really need a single typical frame mod to perform, be it range, strength or duration, makes building for management so goddarn easy on him that you gotta hate him with a passion to even consider this a problem really....

I mean have you even played him for a while? At all? How can you consider the cost an issue when it's that frickin easy to manage???

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

You do obviously. And boosting the multiplier hasn't been an issue ever since new naramon has been introduced. It gets stronger the longer the game goes with as much as a single combo mod. No max efficiency needet. I've been running streamline, rage (now hunter adrenaline) vit, steel fiber, P flow for as long as the rework has come to consoles and i have yet to suffer from any energy issue whatsoever.

That it doesn't really need a single typical frame mod to perform, be it range, strength or duration, makes building for management so goddarn easy on him that you gotta hate him with a passion to even consider this a problem really....

I mean have you even played him for a while? At all? How can you consider the cost an issue when it's that frickin easy to manage???

But you are taking something that has nothing to do with Ash and factoring that in. That is not an Ash thing. Doesn't fix the insane wind up. Doesn't fix the long cut scene. Damage is not everything. YOU brought up that topic and drug me into it. I almost fell for it but I got back on track.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

But you are taking something that has nothing to do with Ash and factoring that in. That is not an Ash thing. Doesn't fix the insane wind up. Doesn't fix the long cut scene. Damage is not everything. YOU brought up that topic and drug me into it. I almost fell for it but I got back on track.

That's stuff it scales from so it is indeed part of ash. Part of bladestorm. It's the things he can build for, anyone has access to.

It doesn't fix it but it indeed justifys it. Or do you really believe that DE would add real aoe to the game that hits every single enemy for 300k finisher damage once the combo is wound up? naramon 2.0 doesn't reset the counter anymore. It makes it decay by 5 every 4+12(body count), 10(drifting contact), like 6(weak dispo rivens)seconds so it's a constant once it gets anywhere near that.

 

Step back for a second there and ask yourself if that's really something they'd do?... i mean you don't balance by basestats but by the absolute peak it can reach. Every change that isn't pure qol would mean a full rework that would ruin what it can do.

To what end? So he gets O.P. af and nerfed in a heartbeat? Becomes a weak clone of something else? So you can play ash instead of the frames you mentioned as a reference? Gtfo, just play them and let ash be. Seriously.

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That's stuff it scales from so it is indeed part of ash. Part of bladestorm. It's the things he can build for, anyone has access to.

It doesn't fix it but it indeed justifys it. Or do you really believe that DE would add real aoe to the game that hits every single enemy for 300k finisher damage once the combo is wound up? naramon 2.0 doesn't reset the counter anymore. It makes it decay by 5 every 4+12(body count), 10(drifting contact), like 6(weak dispo rivens)seconds so it's a constant once it gets anywhere near that.

 

Step back for a second there and ask yourself if that's really something they'd do?... i mean you don't balance by basestats but by the absolute peak it can reach. Every change that isn't pure qol would mean a full rework that would ruin what it can do.

To what end? So he gets O.P. af and nerfed in a heartbeat? Becomes a weak clone of something else? So you can play ash instead of the frames you mentioned as a reference? Gtfo, just play them and let ash be. Seriously.

Doesn't fix either of the things I listed. 

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 I mean is that really the way to go at a frame? To fully ignore how he's played

Like how pre-nerf BS worked with different builds and still was effective? Like how it encouraged tactical use of it by having an animation lock punishment for being careless?

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

, what he has and then complaining about the way he's balanced?

Like how pre-nerf was balanced by comparison to everything else by having a punishment for careless use and a target cap and people who hated the frame complained for Ash to get nerfed to the ground and DE did?

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

By constantly complaining about the one thing that's unique to him?

Like it  has always been? Pre-nerf was unique. Was the only mass murder nuke with animations, specific weakness against units it wasn't intended to be used on, and having a target cap?

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

If you're looking for somthing else entirely, play something else.

Like another game? Why would I play another game when I can play Warframe?

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It's not ashs fault that he doesn't fit your playstyle.

It's the fault of  idiots who think current iteration is good and balanced and fail to understand it's major flaws; and dochebags who hate the frame and don't want it to be good.

 

High damage =/= Good Design.

 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

multitarget

Ability that hits enemies 1 by 1 =/= multitarget. Multitarget means it hits everyone, or large chunks of enemy forces, at once.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

on enemys with viral on them while you're able to shoot shurikens for days, thus support with armor drain, invisibility as defense and just oneshot most enemys with the ignis, venka boosted slides or x8 multiplier zenistar disc for insignificant less.

I don't recall being able to keep shooting Shurikens while the forever cutscene is playing, nor how armor stripping afffects Finisher damage which bypasses it anyway, or how invisibility helps beyond marking phase because it isn't paused during the slowstorm, or what all the AoE weapons that are better than BS have to do with BS besides outkilling it because it's slow as hell.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Just what?

Who of these frames can pull that off exactly?

Hydroid and Banshee can shatter armor of enemies en masse with some range, and the Venka, or Zenistar or Ignis can be used by them too. Ash has tools that are good for small single target encounters, but that ISN'T THE KIND OF GAME WARFRAME IS. WF is a horde game, there is no place for single target assassins who can't even use their abilities on bosses or other elite enemies anyway and be the most effective. Nox units laugh at Blade Storm for example. Why? Who knows! maybe the frame is indeed overnerfed.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nazrethim:

 High damage =/= Good Design.

Good Design in perspective of single characters is actually subjective. What is good design for one may be bad design for another. For a frame, be it only Ash, to have his damage balanced around the higher level part of the game and not to be a copy of other frames, that cover the lower part is excellent design. Not essencially for him but definitly for the game that lets you choose your hero to fit the expected content.

That he can do both, get a boost outa stuff like the zenistar, melee, guns trough the armor dispell/invisibility AND spit lvl 250 enemys in theyr face is actually excellent design for the desired result.

 

Oh and i'd love to see you playing banshee to shatter enemys armor in a content where it actually means something. Hydroid sits in a puddle to do that, what's as bad as design gets...

Hitting multiple targets per cast IS multitarget. Not aoe but multitarget.

You may wanna play them first or like..think before using stuff for reference. You ridicule yourself otherwise. And honestly, you're making ash players look bad.

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Good Design in perspective of single characters is actually subjective. What is good design for one may be bad design for another. For a frame, be it only Ash, to have his damage balanced around the higher level part of the game and not to be a copy of other frames, that cover the lower part is excellent design. Not essencially for him but definitly for a game that lets you choose your hero to fit the expected content.

Except he is outperformed by frames that cover the whole range from low level to endurance levels. Plus the fact he is a single target assassin in a Horde game, and that he has two single target assassinations. You call those "excellent design"?

There isn't content Ash stands out. Other frames can go as far as he can and do it much better than him, because he has no way to deal with crowds on his own. Blade Storm is probably the worst offensive "ultimate" right now. It has no CC, single target damage against hordes, ridiculous unjustified cost, slower than anything else at the player's disposal and weaker than all equipment due to the combination of stuff I mentioned already.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

Except he is outperformed by frames that cover the whole range from low level to endurance levels. Plus the fact he is a single target assassin in a Horde game, and that he has two single target assassinations. You call those "excellent design"?

There isn't content Ash stands out. Other frames can go as far as he can and do it much better than him, because he has no way to deal with crowds on his own. Blade Storm is probably the worst offensive "ultimate" right now. It has no CC, single target damage against hordes, ridiculous unjustified cost, slower than anything else at the player's disposal and weaker than all equipment due to the combination of stuff I mentioned already.

I 100% agree. You can kill one enemy with a massive overkill but then where does that leave you? If you Blade Storm 20 or so enemies you are WAY out of energy. Yet other frames still kill those 20 enemies and then some but only lose a fraction of down time casting and still having a mana pool to use.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Gerade eben schrieb Nazrethim:

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)CoolD2108:

It's actually 100+306,25%, 4 times the total damage, what's a whooping 12,400 per mark, 37,200 with 3 marks, up to 223,200 with normal weapons and 334,800 with venka p. A lil more then that really, multiplied x4 for simplicity.

There isn't content Ash stands out.

> has highly scaled enemys run over a postion

>literally kills them by looking at them

>doesn't die

>doesn't have to have specific squads to work at all

>doesn't stand out

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

I 100% agree. You can kill one enemy with a massive overkill but then where does that leave you? 

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (Xbox One)Natfrog123:

Maybe check Hydroid and his execution and his DPS in conjunction with energy cost. Sure maybe he hits each enemy for 200 damage but he can hit 15 enemies or more at any given time not to mention when multiple tentacles hit a single enemy. All this doesn't even matter when you look at armor stripping capabilities but for the sake of this I will exclude all of that. Blade Storm does not wipe 4500 lvl enemy maps faster than Octavia's Mallet. In fact BS does jack all to those enemies. So to say it would be the best damage in the game is not even close to reality. BS cannot kill anywhere near as fast as Excalibur who just has to press 4 and slowly watch his energy drain.BS does not kill anywhere near as fast as Ice Chroma. BS does not kill anywhere near as fast as Sleep Equinox. The list can go on and on but yet here you are spouting nonsense.

At the same position those frames are, only better. SINCE ALL OF THEM KILL SLOWER FROM A CERTAIN LEVEL FORTH.

Warframe isn't just a horde game. It's a horde game with endless enemy scaling. That's a difference. And you're getting frames for those ranges providet regardless. Feel free to use them.

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Warframe isn't just a horde game. It's a horde game with endless enemy scaling.

Wrong. Sortie 3 enemies level 100-110 is where the scaling stops. Nothing beyond that is intended by the devs. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)RDeschain82:

Wrong. Sortie 3 enemies level 100-110 is where the scaling stops. Nothing beyond that is intended by the devs. 

So they totally addet level caps to the game.

 

The irony is that you're the fastest killer even in that content since every other frame eather requires perfectly set Cc squads, is real singletarget/buffer (chroma) or is too weak by numbers.

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

So they totally addet level caps to the game.

 

The irony is that you're the fastest killer even in that content since every other frame eather requires perfectly set Cc squads or is too weak by numbers.

Wrong... Octavia beats Ash hands down. Kills hundreds of enemies while ash is still trying to build his mutiplier and she has no damage cap.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The irony is that you're the fastest killer even in that content since every other frame eather requires perfectly set Cc squads or is too weak by numbers.

We have a dagger stance now that can kill level 9999 enemies. So team CL (that Ash is apart of) isn't so special anymore. 

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

Despite what you may think I don't see the game overrun with Octavias despite her being the BEST frame in the game right now.

[Firetrucksrule]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Wrong. Sortie 3 enemies level 100-110 is where the scaling stops. Nothing beyond that is intended by the devs. 

If it wasn't intended then we wouldn't have leaderboards. I've seen DE members go well beyond sortie 3 level on Prime Times and other live streams. We even had that event, The Pacifism Defect that required going way beyond those levels for a lot of clan sizes. You might not be forced to play beyond sortie 3 but it's definitely the top end of intended difficulty, it's usually the top end of mandatory difficulty. Not to mention we wouldn't have so much equipment and frames available that easily scale past level 1000.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

OP is not a bad thing in a game like this. At anytime if someone has a problem with any frame they can simply leave and find a new game with new random people. However most of the time I get people asking me to tag along with them to help out. People LOVE OP players that aren't complete douches.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (Xbox One)RDeschain82:

We have a dagger stance now that can kill level 9999 enemies. So team CL (that Ash is apart of) isn't so special anymore. 

Hm... killing 30 enemys one by one including targeting vs marking 30 enemys...

 

But ....we complain that Bladestorm is slow if i'm not misstaken? Thing is, it is fast, for what it does.

Edited December 9, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Hm... killing 30 enemys one by one including targeting vs marking 30 enemys...

 

But ....we complain that Bladestorm is slow if i'm not misstaken?

Yes! How do you not understand how abilities are there to ENHANCE killing or ENHANCING survivability. If it isn't better than the tools we already possess, what is the point of them? You spend a resource to do something that improves something.