Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Get_Of_Fenris]

4 minutes ago, Noobverest said:

Then that makes blade storm not interactive

 

For example after you hit 4 again you're stuck in that cutscene where you have to watch the game play itself for the number of marks you put up.

Yes, but I believe that is much better now that you can choose how many and which targets get affected by Bladestorm. 

Someone said they would prefer if only the clones did the animations but the fact is that a lot of people actually like watching Bladestorm play out and I think DE wouldn't commit to such a drastic change.

5 minutes ago, kyori said:

Frost avalanche you cannot do anything else during the execution duration too n etc 

I said after, not during.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

The game could have done that atomatically though? Nekros just got a rework were his shadows are automatically selected from the most powerful killed enemies, no faffing about about marking targets for resurrection.

The problem is his 4th doesn't feel like a 4th now, it's fiddly and complicated instead of the instant gratification. It doesn't have to be a nuke but should feel better than this.

The difference between Nekros and Ash is that for Nekros it makes sense to summon the tankiest meatshields. I think one of his augments benefits from it, right? Ash's theme is assassin and he should be able to decide which enemies are the gratest threats because the enemy with the largest health pool not always deals the most damage.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

1 minute ago, Noobverest said:

A more comfortable and lazy enough thing for DE to bother doing, is to make it so Ash only sends out clones to marked targets.

 

 

This has been done by the devs, where they admit its worse (Translate: too OP) than pre reworked ash, steve said this in a devstream.

[StealthyCARNAGE]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

This has been done by the devs, where they admit its worse (Translate: too OP) than pre reworked ash, steve said this in a devstream.

I only remember hearing about them saying that turning into an Exalted ability would make it OP.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Just now, S.C. said:

I only remember hearing about them saying that turning into an Exalted ability would make it OP.

No, they have tried to make it like Ember's wof....Only the clones do the job

[LunarEdge7]

I want these badass animations to stay. I don't really get why others hate marking enemies for death and watching a short assassin clip, but I love it.

Use Equinox if you're looking for instant slash nuking and finishers (Night form, Rest).

[Kronxito]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

This has been done by the devs, where they admit its worse (Translate: too OP) than pre reworked ash, steve said this in a devstream.

But you spent all your energy. You have to manage that situation. I think is not so easy.

Edited November 28, 2016 by ArionLightning

[Vendalkin]

My biggest problem thus far is it didn't fix what the devs set out to fix. you still can end up just AFKstorming when used properly in a big mob.  Thats ridiculously stupid. still just as uninvolved just more frustrating now.

Ash used to be capable of a broad variety of builds. Stealth, AOE DPS, Single Target DPS, Mobility, Survivability, etc Hes pretty much stealth single target dps now, with no customizing beyond that if you want to be effective.
I typically only ever used BS to get out of (OH $#!^) situations where i needed a moment to sheild regen, because lets face it invisibility is worth crap against any aoe infested spit out. other than that I loved ash mainly for his teleport move combined with the fatal finish augment. He is now less survivable, less AOE, less distract/enemy immobilize capable, less mobility (more standing still to target).

Now BS basically does the same thing... You could argue its still AOE, but when you think about how it triggers its not, it requires single targeting. Single targeting that could simply be gun shots to kill instead of loading up the move.
NOT TO MENTION the fact that without line of sight the move is thus rendered useless. I've seen others commenting on how this negates the ninjas sixth sense, but that really doesn't matter, what does matter is ash now has absolutely no AOE potential that can hit enemies behind cover or through walls. ALmsot all other frames have some kind of wall peirce ability that can be used to dmg without LOS.

Energy cost sucks, but whatever i can live with it

I mean the best way to make the move interactive would have just been to implement a player interaction into the cutscene, such as pressing e to melee teleport to the next target, and if done with incorrect timing the BS would break, thus the player would have to be able to time their e buttons to properly use the move to its maximum efficiency. Would have been simple to implement code wise too, simply wait for input for the proper frames and break if it isnt received, causeing the player to return to original position and do no further dmg to enemies. And for those players that use the move like i do not for DPS but for a breather in heavy poison areas it would still be effective, just would require a bit more finesse. Punish crappy players for being crappy, rather than punishing all players because of the crappy ones.

I know ash wasn't meant to be super dmg heavy.... but there are tons of frames out there that do way more dmg than their role sggests so thats no reason for a nerf.

I'd even be happy with turning BS into a Death Blossom style shurriken burst AOE move. The most frustrating thing right now about ash is he is 100% single target, and even less of a team player now (with a team all the enemies are dead before he can properly target a mob with BS) Sure he can be a sneaky solo player... but lets face it, lokie still has him beat in many ways in that regard....


 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Vendalkin
Spelling errors

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

1 minute ago, ArionLightning said:

But you spents all your energy. You have to manage that situation. I think is not so easy.

???

[LunarEdge7]

Just now, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

???

Look at his main post. Upon his suggested ult, you'll drain all your energy.

[StealthyCARNAGE]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

No, they have tried to make it like Ember's wof....Only the clones do the job

Then I think you've misunderstood what Noobverest tried to say. He meant leaving the targeting as it is but stop including the player into the animation.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

6 minutes ago, S.C. said:

Then I think you've misunderstood what Noobverest tried to say. He meant leaving the targeting as it is but stop including the player into the animation.

That would be way too op, lock a group of targets, activate ult, while ults running, lock other group of targets, re activate ults. Aside of that, its less cool than the current one (we cant see the cutscene where he teleports everywhere stabbing enemies)

7 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Look at his main post. Upon his suggested ult, you'll drain all your energy.

Ok, i see...

[Guest]

So, here's my ash build at the moment:

I may try adding a forma and adding primed flow and swapping TF for BR, but it is what it is right now...

I didn't play him much because watching blade storm made me feel sick, and his stealth abilities sucked compared to Lokis.  But, I've been testing this out a lot all weekend, in a wide array of mission types.  While I like the fast-flow of combat thanks to the smoke screen changes, I'm not impressed by the

His 1 still doesn't provide any incentive for usage.

With this current rework, his stealth is greatly improved simply because it's 1-handed and castable at almost any time (except when on your &#!).  This makes his general gameplay a lot better and improves his survivability cuz it helps keep him in stealth all the time.  That said, it's just an energy tax.  Casting on cooldown is nothing but a tax on your energy pool, and the cost per second of invisibility doesn't compare to Loki and the frequency that it needs to be cast is simply annoying, and nothing more.

His 3 still messes up and glitches out all the time, even with the augment.  And now, it also misses your target quite often, teleporting to stuff like railings in the void.  Can't the augment get baked into the skill?  It's honestly nothing but a band-aid, and not a very good one at that since it fails half the time and doesn't ever work on most infested targets.

Changes to his 4 aren't the end of the world, but they're also not addressing the reason a lot of people hate playing Ash.  I've been getting motion sick trying to use blade storm a lot.  Before it was a single button tap to start a sickening, glitchy cut scene that prevented you from taking any actions until it played out.  Now, you have to spin around and have an epileptic fit with your mouse in order to tag the same area of enemies, and THEN start the same old sickening, glitchy cut scene with the same animation lock as before.  Using blade storm is MORE sickening that it was before.  With the stealth / BS energy reduction synergy, I'm invisible for half of the animation ANYWAYS.  All I see is a bunch of enemies convulsing and spewing blood while a faint red blob bounces around the screen.  The only time I actually see Ash in BS, is when I've marked so many people that it takes longer than the remaining duration of my stealth (which is short, if you didn't know).  And then, he's usually not even aligning properly to the enemy bodies to make the animations make sense.  He's stepping on their feet and stabbing at the air, or he's 3 feet behind them and stabbing them in the butt.  It's great for teammates that marked enemies aren't invulnerable, and that I get energy returned if they die before actually casting (cuz it's stupidly expensive it seems).  But the only thing I really cared about having fixed was the vomit-inducing animation. 

Playing alongside Ash, I never cared when enemies were invulnerable to attack cuz I knew they were probably gonna die.  I also didn't care that he just spammed 4, cuz I probably had to rez him if he stopped.  But as much as his damage potential still seems high, and his high-speed stealth combat is fun, I can't do the vomit-inducing animation. 

[StealthyCARNAGE]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

That would be way too op, lock a group of targets, activate ult, while ults running, lock other group of targets, re activate ults. Aside of that, its less cool than the current one (we cant see the cutscene where he teleports everywhere stabbing enemies)

Hardly. In fact that's one of the issues most people have with the ability. Why? Because it locks you out of actual gameplay.

[Noobverest]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

That would be way too op, lock a group of targets, activate ult, while ults running, lock other group of targets, re activate ults. Aside of that, its less cool than the current one (we cant see the cutscene where he teleports everywhere stabbing enemies)

 

um

no?

I mean, I don't know if you've noticed, probably not because you don't have the Ash rework yet.... but....

Marks 2 and 3 = Ash sending out clones to stab enemies.

You can't actually re-activate Ash's bladestorm until after they finish stabbing everything

[LunarEdge7]

Just now, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Aside of that, its less cool than the current one (we cant see the cutscene where he teleports everywhere stabbing enemies)

I don't get why people dislike being immobile while doing this. Even people who've tried Mesa. They want everything to be mobile.

Maybe if Blade Storm also scaled with all melee mods rather than just attack speed, and nerf the base dmg of the Blade Storm itself, it'd be more widely accepted since it can actually promise you more guaranteed kills for the time spent marking and storming enemies.

Atm, Peacemaker is better as an ult in terms of getting guaranteed kills while being rooted.

[LunarEdge7]

Just now, S.C. said:

Because it locks you out of actual gameplay.

For only until you're done 'finishing' your marked enemies. Now you don't do it forever and get stun-locked finishing Ancients.

[CeaselessCarefulness]

I would like bladestorm to work like "Ash draw his wrist-knife and enter targeting mode until you run out of energy or you choose to exit it. Mark the number of enemy you want to kill then press melee button to use bladestorm." So I don't have to spam 2 4 2 3 4 3 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 through the mission

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I think the current method is fine.  Needs an energy consumption tweak.  and change it so that if he's only got one target alive when he does his blade storm or he only targets one thing that all remaining "marks" are converted into one single powerful attack.  So if he say marked 5 enemies 3 times and one enemy was left and he still had 3 marks on said target it would take the damage of all 3 marks and combine it into one attack animation.

 

They already gave more control over who it targets which should help with enemies randomly going invincible.  marked targets are still killable.  and due to how the interaction with BS works now there is more of a chance to kill the marked target before ash starts his attack on it.  And lastly they made targets only markable 3 times.  So at worst on a single target it wouldn't last nearly as long as pre patch ash did.

My suggestion I think would be the next and imo final tweak needed to blade storm.  Maybe also make it so melee mods effect the damage too and scale back the base damage to compensate.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[Noobverest]

1 minute ago, LunarEdge7 said:

I don't get why people dislike being immobile while doing this. Even people who've tried Mesa. They want everything to be mobile.

Maybe if Blade Storm also scaled with all melee mods rather than just attack speed, and nerf the base dmg of the Blade Storm itself, it'd be more widely accepted since it can actually promise you more guaranteed kills for the time spent marking and storming enemies.

Atm, Peacemaker is better as an ult in terms of getting guaranteed kills while being rooted.

That's mainly the reason.

If I have to be stuck watching something or immobile, you better make it so I can kill everything.

Right now, you can't.

I don't know what game those people who can kill everything with blade storm is playing, but I'm playing Warframe and it honestly doesn't work for all the mobs that I go up against. Grunts? Sure, but I don't care about Grunts. I care about  Scorch, Napalm, Bombards, Gunners.

 

[LunarEdge7]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think the current method is fine.  Needs an energy consumption tweak.  and change it so that if he's only got one target alive when he does his blade storm or he only targets one thing that all remaining "marks" are converted into one single powerful attack.  So if he say marked 5 enemies 3 times and one enemy was left and he still had 3 marks on said target it would take the damage of all 3 marks and combine it into one attack animation.

 

They already gave more control over who it targets which should help with enemies randomly going invincible.  marked targets are still killable.  and due to how the interaction with BS works now there is more of a chance to kill the marked target before ash starts his attack on it.  And lastly they made targets only markable 3 times.  So at worst on a single target it wouldn't last nearly as long as pre patch ash did.

My suggestion I think would be the next and imo final tweak needed to blade storm.  Maybe also make it so melee mods effect the damage too and scale back the base damage to compensate.

 

Same thoughts with you on this.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Same thoughts with you on this.

I was toying around with the idea of letting cloak ramp up your damage during blade storm.  To add a bit more synergy of the kit.  But after watching people use the new kit I think it wouldn't be needed.  and making mods effect the damage would be a better route.  more flexibility there.  They already make most 4's these days scale off of mods from your weapons I don't see the problem here.

 

EDIT: I would like to see his 1 get some attention though.  Maybe increase slash proc chance on it or something.  Not sure.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

My only suggestion:

Ash BS (still with cutsecene) can only hit once for every enemies marked, more marks only increase damage for that single attack on that enemy. Trust me, its better this way, cutscene duration is down to 50%, no more locked to ancient forever, faster ult, more kills, still look cool.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[enJohneering]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I remember when everyone spammed Mesa. Her rework came about, there was a bunch of raging on forums, and then the masses went on to the next best thing while true Mesa fans realised that it wasn't that bad and stuck with her.

Same thing will happen with Ash. 

Mesa got several minor/major buffs weeks after the rework which gave her much more surviability and increased reward for the new high risk peacemaker. That is what got people playing her a lot again and why I do use her on occasion. She has a purpose as a surpisingly tanky (with shatter shield) team buff to gunplay with a fair amount of damage. Ash has an alright invisibility and a fun (my reason for liking Ash) teleport but no real team use. That's the only issue, he was always obnoxious to teams but his ult was a cheese mode that made people like him anyway. The new ultimate is fine even if it's not particularly better than just using a gun. 

 

So, here I suggest a few simple changes because DE isn't, and probably shouldn't, do a big overhaul anyway.

Shuriken should remove armor like the augment and have punch through. This is simple, it solves tracking problems and gives the ability a purpose. For 15 energy removing armor from one or two targets is barely better than a teleport finisher, but I'd do it if playing with a team. If it threw like 4 that removed 50% armor, I'd hit it a few times to remove armor from a crowd for my team at least occasionally.

Smoke Screen could use a longer duration. It needs to be up most/all of the time now that BS isn't a free invincibility button and it's his most useful skill for melee undetected multipliers. It's still a direct downgrade from loki though. If instead of duration this became a team utility skill that would be great. The little AOE that staggers enemies could be widened and used to do something like soft blind targets reducing accuracy or give a shorter duration stealth to teammates (nobody uses the augment, range way too small).

Change teleport to function as Fatal Teleport and give it the wrist blade animation. There, now yall get to keep your cool animation and we can finally make the last change.

Don't make Ash follow along during the Bladestorm.

DE, you have already increased the cost per hit, and made each mark need to be done manually, leaving Ash out of the actual damage dealing won't make the ability overpowered, and will actually give me a reason to use it. Currently, using bladestorm requires extra energy and time, both of which put pressure on my short invisibility timer where if I had just keep shooting things I could have much better control and efficiency over my murder. I'm not saying the ability is bad, I had a ton of fun doing an undetected exterminate, I just could have had equal fun and done it more easily in Loki or Ivara. I would like my challenge to come from more challenging missions, not weaker frames. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by enJoeneering

[VonDodo]

2 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

That's always been a thing.  25 r5 cores used to drop from sorties, and 5 r5 cores was a drop from Hieracon, Pluto.  One could obtain more cores from Hieracon in the time it took to do the sorties, than the sorties themselves.  

Maybe but when 3 difficult mission you have to run in a row and gives random reward, gives less than 3 casual missions you can play whenever you want there is a problem.

 

[Xyhon]

Well, Ash is doable on lower lvls of content. However, when you move to sh...spamming higher tiers, especially in multi games endless modes, you are obsolete now with your skills. This is a horde game now, not even close to stealth and tactics. Ash needs another rework, maybe this time including his other skills... It would be much better to tag enemies with shurikens, even add 4 of them to the skill, for keeping up pace, and execute with BS.