Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[dodyouserious]

cant call this a rework when you just nerfed him to his grave.

[0zryel]

34 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Do you even play Ash, if an Ash player wanted to focus on that one enemy for less energy, then they just Teleport to them for the finisher proc for higher damage, or even better, Fatal teleport, which also gives energy and does even more damage. You're acting like pointing the retical is some classy precision surgery when its merely nothing but gimped Mesa targeting, without fixing the actual non-interactive part of Bladestorm, or substantially improving some of his other abilities. You do run out of enrgy, substantially in higher levels. Eximus don't care about energy returns or damage with higher armor. Energy return don't care about deaths from bleed procs. Energy return don't care about needing to cast smokescreen repeatedly to safely keep marking because Ash is so squishy.

I though I din't have to bring up Teleport because that is the number one choice to kill ONE enemy if you play ASH, I was focusing of the "why", to me I can use BS and how I can instant kill specific targets depending on situation... Im not gonna argue about this as we clearly modded him and play him differently. I been doing just fine Eximus and all, ASH is squishy but there are way to work around that with mods... I have never rely completely on my abilities, i use backflip get distance or escape, lash on to walls to shoot targets, spring melee slash them, or glide/roll/slide so I wont get hit, jump on enemies to knock them down, etc...etc... I use all I can and Mod for that specifically with all my Warframes. Err...Im not going to go to specifics.

Sorry you feel that way, that must suck apparently... to my play style its been just fine and have I had really good experience with it even in high levels.

That's my experience, I just post it here... to let DE know and reply to you but seeing as its getting a bit heated Ill just leave it at that, good luck to you, hope you get whatever change you want DE to make with ASH... it wont matter to me Ill just adapt, find what works for me etc...like I always done. Later see ya in game maybe. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by 0zryel

[Blacknight00D]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

TellTale, popular but they provide little substance gameplay wise, and ditto choice wise, as most of your choices they offer make little difference. Their stuff is basically even more watered down visual novels than the visual novel genre has been, with narrow outcomes overall. Multiple "play"throughs render very few dynamic results. I rather Ash not take cues from them.

QTEs are an impotent way of adding interactivity, for what are still canned animations, they don't fit a team based game with shooting, hordes and level hazards anyway and they are annoying in the games that do have them. Ninja Blade went right back to the store for me because of that stuff. i want to play my games, and that has been the growing trend since the trend GoW helped resurge from those terrible early 90s FMV  mini-games, lost more of its novelty in later years.  

 Things can be killed faster than with these cutscenes, they serve little use other than annoying detachment. Things like this are for when a dev is feeling too lazy to program something so they they put in prerendered things to fill space. I'd hope DE would actually want better than that. I was also hoping with the first mention of a rework for Ash that this would inevitably be replaced with something more like an exalted state, as suggested all way back during the Wukong and Atlas preview devstream, but they just ended up keeping the cutscenes and making the move less effective.

Hopefully the devs try again and offer a new, playable 4 for Ash, as well as buffing his other abilities more than they have.

The point is not to mimic TellTale completely. The idea is just to add interactions into an animation system that is already built. They already have animations for each strike. Why not put something in there where the player can interact and seem like they are getting something worth wild out of it.

A true rework would "gut" the whole system and start fresh. I actually see bladestorm as a combination of Excalibur's Slash Dash (Blade) and Radial Javelin (Storm) - a storm of blades.

[-CM-AbsoluteZero]

If DE and people are really fine with how Blade Storm is,

we should give all the AoE abilities in the game the same targeting mechanic

It promotes active and engaging gameplay am i right?

It discourages press 4 to win too right?

 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 minute ago, -CM-AbsoluteZero said:

If DE and people are really fine with how Blade Storm is,

we should give all the AoE abilities in the game the same targeting mechanic

It promotes active and engaging gameplay am i right?

It discourages press 4 to win too right?

 

That would kill frames like nova, trinity, saryn, ember, basically any AOE dependent frame, but then again people who think this targeting system works for ash needs to see what happens when their favorite frame can't nuke rooms anymore.

Edited December 1, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[dodyouserious]

Just now, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

That would kill frames like nova, trinity, saryn, ember, basically any AOE dependent frame

just like how ash died

[UrielColtan]

12 hours ago, Gendarme said:

Okay, the first part i do not understand, in my post, if that's what you were reffering to, I didnt nerf his best ability, nor have i kept the cutscenes, although reading back i understand how one could misunderstand what i wrote.

For the second part, I've actually made a topic on its own, and the purpose of it was to show the way i see auguments and their implementation through a complete concept for a frame, and stimulate a discussion about it. Then the mods here decided to teleport it to this thread, i guess because it had to do with Ash? 

The way i see auguments is not as a simple +power that you sometimes just have to slot in because its too good, instead, in my view, they should be modifications to abilities that come with additional functionality, but also come with a drawback to promote different playstyles and additional customisation for frames.

Comparison with corrupted mods is one i expected, but corrupted mods are useful because of their inflated stats, often times when one is modifying a frame one focuses on 1 or 2 stats and completely disregards the rest, which makes certain abilities super strong, and then others borderline useless. Auguments that modify the way abilities function, changes their purpose and the way one plays instead of focusing on how often does one press 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I was talking about the actual DE change at that first part.

I know what your intent behind the augments are, I simply don't agree with the Stockholm syndrome of always needing some kind of drawback for the sake of drawbacks. Not every mod should be a glorified corrupted mod, especially after all the work to rank up in syndicates. This "lets lock off abilities" mentality would have kept us in the Stoneage with Warframe, where we would still have Warframe abilities as mere mods that we would have to compromise on for which ones to fit on a Warframe, cutting them off from their full tool kit. Its bad enough the only way to get substantial effinity or power is by losing duration, which I can overlook, but now you legitimately want to lock off base abilities just to use an augment. I never agreed with this concept.

Why would anyone use Choking Gas over regular Smokescreen that you presented when you lose both the  CC you already had and the Team assistance by even bothering with that? Its this  drawback mentality of getting rid of base abilities that makes for fairly underwhelming augments.

Why would anyone use your Ash Trail? What good is teleporting back to positions where you left a body? Way too situational to be worth the losses from the already restrictive regular one. He'd be better off with a free shortrange teleport, and without an augment for it. Ash's teleport is already too restricted. Let him join the Nova, Nezha and Excal crew in transport. Your Deadly Intent is just a gimped version of Fatal Teleport and your Power Throw Shuriken augment is just a gimped version of Seeking Shuriken. Now you're even substracting from the augments we even have. 

Your augments for Bladestorm look like they would be better augments for Shuriken.

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

12 hours ago, Blacknight00D said:

The point is not to mimic TellTale completely. The idea is just to add interactions into an animation system that is already built. They already have animations for each strike. Why not put something in there where the player can interact and seem like they are getting something worth wild out of it.

A true rework would "gut" the whole system and start fresh. I actually see bladestorm as a combination of Excalibur's Slash Dash (Blade) and Radial Javelin (Storm) - a storm of blades.

Its already worse than Fatal Teleport, it can go, and Ash can get a different, actually interactive 4th like Excal did, no TellTale nonsense needed. Few people want to play a meticulous, gimped interactivity, slow Ash.

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Blacknight00D]

2 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Its already worse than Fatal Teleport, it can go, and Ash can get a different 4th, like Excal did. Few people want to play a meticulous, gimped interactivity, slow Ash,

I agree. Gut the whole system and start over. Maybe we can get a bladestorm that is faster and more intuitive.

[Gendarme]

1 hour ago, UrielColtan said:

I was talking about the actual DE change at that first part.

I know what your intent behind the augments are, I simply don't agree with the Stockholm syndrome of always needing some kind of drawback for the sake of drawbacks. Not every mod should be a glorified corrupted mod, especially after all the work to rank up in syndicates. This "lets lock off abilities" mentality would have kept us in the Stoneage with Warframe, where we would still have Warframe abilities as mere mods that we would have to compromise on for which ones to fit on a Warframe, cutting them off from their full tool kit. Its bad enough the only way to get substantial effinity or power is by losing duration, which I can overlook, but now you legitimately want to lock off base abilities just to use an augment. I never agreed with this concept.

Why would anyone use Choking Gas over regular Smokescreen that you presented when you lose both the  CC you already had and the Team assistance by even bothering with that? Its this  drawback mentality of getting rid of base abilities that makes for fairly underwhelming augments.

Why would anyone use your Ash Trail? What good is teleporting back to positions where you left a body? Way too situational to be worth the losses from the already restrictive regular one. He'd be better off with a free shortrange teleport, and without an augment for it. Ash's teleport is already too restricted. Let him join the Nova, Nezha and Excal crew in transport. Your Deadly Intent is just a gimped version of Fatal Teleport and your Power Throw Shuriken augment is just a gimped version of Seeking Shuriken. Now you're even substracting from the augments we even have. 

Your augments for Bladestorm look like they would be better augments for Shuriken.

 

Choking Gas, was meant to be the harder form of CC and area denial skill, whereas blinded enemies can react to sounds like moving or shooting, and if they move out of the cloud the blind is removed. WIth choking gas they are hard stunned while in the cloud effectively taking them out of combat untill the ability itself dissapates.

Ash Trails can spawn from any kills, and you benefit from auto generated clouds, so you could, say bring a bow, snipe a guy and remain undettected while you hop from cloud to cloud. Or you could slap a razor wind augument with it, kill a bunch of guys all the while spawning clouds all over the place which then slash proc all the enemies which increases your melee counter, all the while weaving through a bunch of clouds that make you invisible.

Actually deadly intent was meant to straight up be fatal teleport, i was just forgetting the name at the time of writing. Power throw was also meant to be seeking shuriken, without the % of pwr strength needed to reach 100% removal and the removal of slash proc because slash procs if you take a look at the passive can be pretty powerful for this version of Ash(i also intended to throw in shield disable simply because this augument is meant to be a damage amp for everything else).

Bladestorm is remade to be a shower of shuriken in all directions around Ash, if you take a look at the auguments for shuriken, bladestorm without any auguments can do 3 different things when looking at just the shuriken auguments. 1.Powerfull single target damage for each unit 2. Removal of all armor for all enemies in the area 3. Aoe overlapping slash procs that work up the combo counter at a pretty crazy speed.

Auguments for Bladestorm are meant to provide different functionality for it, focused power taking out groups of enemies with increased damage and brostorm working off the upped combo counter by stuff like razor wind and shatter razor, without being able to strip armor off everything in the viscinity when combined with power throw.

 

The auguments i had in mind arent meant to be restrictive for the sake of it, some of them provide absolutely crazy benefits, and for those you simply have to limit the functions of an ability for the sake of keeping them as a choice, not a mandatory must have. Take Teleport as a skill for example, originally it's a free aim teleport, you can go anywhere you want, thats great in itself providing excellent mobility. Now slap on an augument which also makes it spawn smoke clouds everywhere when you kill things. Without the restriction tt would be just a straight up buff for the ability making it a mandatory equip and that's the thing i want to move away from.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Gendarme

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

 

[Achromatic.]

1 hour ago, Blacknight00D said:

The point is not to mimic TellTale completely. The idea is just to add interactions into an animation system that is already built. They already have animations for each strike. Why not put something in there where the player can interact and seem like they are getting something worth wild out of it.

A true rework would "gut" the whole system and start fresh. I actually see bladestorm as a combination of Excalibur's Slash Dash (Blade) and Radial Javelin (Storm) - a storm of blades.

I've always wanted a slash dash that cuts through crowds and leaves behind clones doing their current BS animation.

[Enno69]

18 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

It needs to have an actual health bar, ie be killable. Terminals are objects but they can't be destroyed, so you can't teleport to them.

But during a mobile defense mission they can be destroyed, can't they ?

[Messaiga]

1 minute ago, Biter. said:

I've always wanted a slash dash that cuts through crowds and leaves behind clones doing their current BS animation.

This actually sounds pretty cool.  What if Ash's teleport was changed to behave more like a grineer manic's dashing?

[VoidWraith]

1 minute ago, Enno69 said:

But during a mobile defense mission they can be destroyed, can't they ?

That's because they have a health bar. Although I don't know about the "killable" part, but I think as long as it has a health bar, you should be able to teleport to it. 

I also agree with the idea of teleporting to a zipline.

 

I wonder does Loki's Switch Teleport allow for players or enemies that are also on ziplines?
While at it, allow Loki to place decoy/clone on ziplines too.

[OTF4L]

On 11/29/2016 at 11:53 PM, UrielColtan said:

Should your young children be playing this content anyway? It is technically rated M.

The gameplay is already simplistic enough as is.  I feel games were less hand holding back when I was a child.

Dumbing things down is the modern Bioware "awesome button" way. The remove all features from Sims to lessen confusion EA way, or press x to pay respects Activision way, or the easy fatality WB way.

I'd prefer most games not go down that road.

"Should your young children be playing this content anyway? It is technically rated M."

- There is filtering for bad words in chat

- Its a lot less "Gory" than many other shooters on the market

- You try to find an online game that you can play with all of your family?

** As to the the other comments and for further elaboration on my view you might want to read my post further down on this thread.**

[Troll_Logic]

I've always thought bladestorm was a bit OP.  The bladestorm rework could have gone a lot worse.  Marking the targets by mouse swiping isn't too bad.

But the "up to three" marks just doesn't work.  Especially on a high level difficulty mission like a sortie.  One mark isn't enough to kill so it goes kinda like this.

 

Ash running in a sortie and see a group in front of him.

Ash goes into bladestorm mode and sweeps the targets.  Since they, and others, are shooting at him, Ash doesn't have time to mark each target three times.

So he bladestorms each target once.

Since he only hit each target once, now they are closer and he goes back into bladestorm mode to target them.

Since they are closer, he has time to only mark each once.

So he bladestorms each target once.

They still aren't dead and now they are on top of him attacking him so as soon as he pops out of bladestorming, he has a dozen enemies whaling on him and he's down.

 

The rework isn't bad.  Just get rid of the "up to three marks."  Make each mark work the way bladestorm used to work.  Keep the energy requirement at the "three mark level."

Keep attacking the marked targets until they are either dead or until a certain amount of time has passed.

 

[Ilichi]

I think you should make that when you blade storm you only do the animation to 10% (or something like that) to the marked enemies and the rest are attacked by clones with like 2x attack speed. you will always to do the animation to the first target tho cause it is cool looking, but once you look at it for 10 seconds each time it becomes very boring and dull.

And if you want interactivity with the blade storm you should make the base damage lower, but if you shuriken a marked target (or other way around) you deal bonus damage.

[Racter]

3 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I've always thought bladestorm was a bit OP.  The bladestorm rework could have gone a lot worse.  Marking the targets by mouse swiping isn't too bad.

The rework, literally, could not have gone worse. The ability in it's current form is absolutely not worth using, in any situation, with any build. That is the definition of worst case scenario.

[Dragazer]

52 pages, a new update, and yet no changes have been made to Ash or any acknowledgement of the feedback,

what a surprise. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by Dragazer

[Mecchi]

26 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

52 pages, a new update, and yet no changes have been made to Ash or any acknowledgement of the feedback,

what a surprise. 

You know how DE is, barely listen to the community, make the worst choices a lot of the time for this kind of stuff, we all shouldn't be surprised.

[RyuJynJakka]

i like the new targeting.

But the energy cost is just a no-no.

It basically killed the frame.

1-shuriken = useless.

2-smokescreen = not even close to loki.

3-fine for single target (energy cost should be lower.)

4- 100 + energy for ??? 6 trash mobs? Sure you can say git gud and target only the Vip targets,wrong!!because teleport does a better job at that.

Rework vote 3/10 for the effort.

[UrielColtan]

 

11 hours ago, 0zryel said:

I though I din't have to bring up Teleport because that is the number one choice to kill ONE enemy if you play ASH, I was focusing of the "why", to me I can use BS and how I can instant kill specific targets depending on situation... Im not gonna argue about this as we clearly modded him and play him differently. I been doing just fine Eximus and all, ASH is squishy but there are way to work around that with mods... I have never rely completely on my abilities, i use backflip get distance or escape, lash on to walls to shoot targets, spring melee slash them, or glide/roll/slide so I wont get hit, jump on enemies to knock them down, etc...etc... I use all I can and Mod for that specifically with all my Warframes. Err...Im not going to go to specifics.

Sorry you feel that way, that must suck apparently... to my play style its been just fine and have I had really good experience with it even in high levels.

That's my experience, I just post it here... to let DE know and reply to you but seeing as its getting a bit heated Ill just leave it at that, good luck to you, hope you get whatever change you want DE to make with ASH... it wont matter to me Ill just adapt, find what works for me etc...like I always done. Later see ya in game maybe. 

It seems you didn't even know you could use teleport for even doing  that, what with your "finally". Teleport did more damage than current Bladestorm, gave stealth bonus multipliers, and was faster than activating bladestorm for one target(Even more so now.). It even traveled farther. 

 

It seems you must have just been a Bladestorm spammer, what with going on about not really relying on Ash's other abilities. I use all the things you mentioned but this is about what distinguishes Ash and how to improve these things, not the basic abilities most Warframes can do.

This also isn't about inability to get through mission s, it's about worse results and keeping boring non-interactive cutscenes. The cost proportion to results are nerfed. Marking makes Ash more vulnerable in higher tier, and more reliant on smokescreen for the move, which is not refunded and last for a very short time under efficiency builds, and even without efficiency builds. Death from bleed procs are also not refunded, nor are multiple separate activations  on the same enemy, which will happen a lot in higher tiers, especially when the damage has been reduced.  You're also actively getting energy drained by Eximus while stuck in the Bladestorm animation, meanwhile Fatal Teleport insta gibs  an Eximus and from farther away.

Nerfing the BS activation and results as well as keeping the cutscenes, just makes do his job even slower.

Either way what you are suggesting otherwise is to actually just be a Bladestorm spammer still and not actually use his other abilities, let alone improve them. How exactly is that remedying spam? 

Edited December 2, 2016 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

8 hours ago, OTF4L said:

"Should your young children be playing this content anyway? It is technically rated M."

- There is filtering for bad words in chat

- Its a lot less "Gory" than many other shooters on the market

- You try to find an online game that you can play with all of your family?

** As to the the other comments and for further elaboration on my view you might want to read my post further down on this thread.**

If the child complains about a M game being too hard, I tell them they are too young for it anyway and to go play Mario Kart. There are ample enough games on PC to play online too though, if they are of the same household then you are not necessarily obligated to play online either. A "shooter" is not required for family time.

[K4r4k4s4]

As I thought nothing changed in new update. Only little cosmetic fixes which confirms that bladestorm will remain as it is. RIP Ash 

Edited December 2, 2016 by K4r4k4s4