Ember and Mirage, the fun-killing frames

[ssh83]

When Melee Coptering was popularized, it was kept because it was fun and cool.

It wasn't removed even though some people thought it was weird and "force" them to strain their fingers to keep up with coptering.

[Jackviator]

18 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

The thing is that how would you change ember and Mirage so that they stay effective at high levels and are able to continue doing their job (aka Damage)?You told us the problem but not a solution.

For Mirage, I've seen and liked the suggestion that each Simulor "blorp" could "belong" to each light-specter. They couldn't just instantly combine, like they do now. In addition, the radius of the explosion of the Simulor itself's blasts, as well as other AOE-based weapons, could be reduced by 25-50% when caused by her specters so as not make to them as absurdly broken as they are now.

As for Ember, there are plenty of rework suggestions to read, but I saw and liked the idea of something that could lock down an area temporarily and truly set the world (terrain) on fire, similar to how Ignis units can set portions of the terrain on fire that damage Warframes. This way, enemies that step on them would be damaged and stunned while on the burning terrain, but it wouldn't just be a death-aura around Ember at all times while channeling. It would also give her some much-needed CC, which she lacks without the aug for her 4. Her 3 could also change to something more useful as well to compensate for her 4 being essentially a better version of it, perhaps some damage-mitigation skill like she had in the old days.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Jackviator

[Fast_98]

1 minute ago, Jackviator said:

For Mirage, I've seen and liked the suggestion that each Simulor "blorp" could "belong" to each light-specter. They couldn't just instantly combine, like they do now. In addition, the radius of the explosion of the Simulor itself's blasts, as well as other AOE-based weapons, could be reduced by 25-50% when caused by her specters so as not make to them as absurdly broken as they are now.

As for Ember, there are plenty of rework suggestions to read, but I saw and liked the idea of something that could lock down an area temporarily and truly set the environment (terrain) on fire, similar to how Ignis units can set portions of the terrain on fire that damage Warframes. This way, enemies that step on them would be damaged and stunned while on the burning terrain, but it wouldn't just be a death-aura around Ember at all times while channeling. It would also give her some much-needed CC, which she lacks without the aug for her 4. Her 3 could also change to something more useful as well to compensate for her 4 being essentially a better version of it, perhaps some damage-mitigation skill like she had in the old days.

Hmm don't know about the ember one but I can get by with the Mirage one. However decreasing radius by 50% might be a bit too much.

[Soketsu]

32 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

Sadly it won't ever happen and everything that Mirage touches will be nerfed. Looking at kohm.

But I wanna dream I want that it never happen again *cry on his gammacore* :'(

30 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I'm not sure you got the main point here. I don't see those frames as fun to use, and I think a lot of people can agree with me. They're just fun-vacuums for all involved, including those using them. They remove all challenge, they're brainless, etc etc.

It's not a solution to just say "yo everyone who thinks this should be nerfed, just use it and shut up talking about nerfing it!" Like... what are you even trying to say there?

shorter, separing the pub matchmaking

-explore mode : any """OP""" thing gear is limited (in range/damage) or forbidden

-rush mode: no restriction on the gear

 

 

you (and many) might found this gear not fun but many other do like them ... who are to consider if a thing is fun to everyone or not ?

remove all chalange ? perhaps if you use fully forma-ted gear + reactor you should consider one thing... lvl 50- is way to weak in order to survive against this kind of stuff, the real lvl where you might see if something is op or not is lvl 90+ (I'm generous since our real limit is 120(+aura level [+further beyond stuff]) ).

The foe from the start chart die quickly to my fully uppgraded prime weapon sentinel, how can I expect them to survive to my others weapons and powers ? Where is the challenge in PVE warframe, even after all this year I still not found him, and howshould I found him since I fight AI not capable to adapt to my actions ? beside being invincible to my powers and weapon and hitscan OS me ?

Unfortunatly I think (due to the fact you join the game this year [24/01/2016]) you might didn't experiment the 2h of endless void ...

 

16 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

The thing is that how would you change ember and Mirage so that they stay effective at high levels and are able to continue doing their job (aka Damage)?You told us the problem but not a solution.

"problem"

7 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

For Mirage, I've seen and liked the suggestion that each Simulor "blorp" could "belong" to each light-specter. They couldn't just instantly combine, like they do now. In addition, the radius of the explosion of the Simulor itself's blasts, as well as other AOE-based weapons, could be reduced by 25-50% when caused by her specters so as not make to them as absurdly broken as they are now.

As for Ember, there are plenty of rework suggestions to read, but I saw and liked the idea of something that could lock down an area temporarily and truly set the environment (terrain) on fire, similar to how Ignis units can set portions of the terrain on fire that damage Warframes. This way, enemies that step on them would be damaged and stunned while on the burning terrain, but it wouldn't just be a death-aura around Ember at all times while channeling. It would also give her some much-needed CC, which she lacks without the aug for her 4. Her 3 could also change to something more useful as well to compensate for her 4 being essentially a better version of it, perhaps some damage-mitigation skill like she had in the old days.

you can (with augment) already play CC ember try it against lvl 70 80 foe, not infested please.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Soketsu

[blasron]

so you want to nerf 2 frame...

 

Ember is barely usable on mision lvl 30+ unless you go after infested but then you will hit the wall of energie leecher.

For mirage its a gun issue not a ability issue yet even if it's pretty strong i don't see her much.

 

Most of the time when i see a ember or a mirage is either i am going against infested(ember) or going on a sortie misson that i can't complet alone. On both occasion i am happy that a insane is doing the job for me since, i am really bore of doing some of these mission

[Helljack84]

3 hours ago, Jackviator said:

As for Ember, there are plenty of rework suggestions to read, but I saw and liked the idea of something that could lock down an area temporarily...

That's basically her 3, and her 3 sucks. She's got two functional abilities atm, more than some other Warframes can claim and I'd love to not break her.

 

1 hour ago, blasron said:

Ember is barely usable on mision lvl 30+ unless you go after infested but then you will hit the wall of energie leecher.

The eximus blob is the go home sign, if you can't blow em up they'll kill you just by existing in the same tile.

Can't say that she's that useless though, I take her on sorties almost daily. The real fun starts when things stop turning to ashes is seconds.

[Chewarette]

8 hours ago, ChasePanic said:

But yes Simulor Mirage is a headache. Especially since they apparently don't know how to explode their blorps so you're left unable to pick up power cells. *Shudder*

You know the Simulor black holes doesn't vacuum the power cells since The Index hotfix, at least ?

[low1991]

8 hours ago, Fast_98 said:

How to fix Synoid simulor connections with Mirage. 

1. Add a cap on vertex (kinda like frost bubble)

^ a fix which affect all frames, to nerf to be certain level. (Mirage+ Simulor to balanced, but other combo are over-nerfed).

The proper fix to mirage+simulor is, all clones (Mirage ' #1) do not fire any projectile! But in exchange for the lose of clones additional damage, the mirage (player) gain a straight additional damage bonus (ie, like Eclipse)

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

8 hours ago, ssh83 said:

Post like this is what's killing the game.

Warframe is all about options and letting people play however they want.

Restricting options kills the main thing that sets Warframe apart.  All for what?  Some dude's ego?

Agreed. 

[Fast_98]

38 minutes ago, low1991 said:

^ a fix which affect all frames, to nerf to be certain level. (Mirage+ Simulor to balanced, but other combo are over-nerfed).

The proper fix to mirage+simulor is, all clones (Mirage ' #1) do not fire any projectile! But in exchange for the lose of clones additional damage, the mirage (player) gain a straight additional damage bonus (ie, like Eclipse)

Okay we can do that. But what other combos are there? Honestly curious.

[_Iye]

I know buffs and nerfs are two balancing mechanisms for a game to make it enjoyable in a sustainable manner BUT the way we people have started requesting for so called reworks, it has become more frightening matter for me that very soon all the frames will end up in a condition that mastery fodder will be the only term they will ever be used for. I know many of us will surely reply me with the facts that the reworked frames aren't dead and so on but remember this that not everyone plays this game like some of us thinkers do. I dont know what's wrong with us that if an ember running with her WOF rejecting to consider or understand that after a certain level her WOF is just so minuscule that it does almost no damage to the enemies, I'm saying like this cause all I'm seeing here is the big dogs and elders discussing things for a beginner or mid level frame ability.

In my sense there is absolutely no need for full reworks except for just simple little tweaks which can bring up huge QoL in game without damaging the fun people get using the frames. Like for simulor, before I start I do wanna say that this weapon is one of my 2 most hated weapons of all time and even in absent mind I dont select this weapon. This weapon itself has no problem at all, I've very recently tried this weapon on a test basis as a single firing weapon with frost and found out that it loses ammo so fast that it becomes an issue unless you are well modded and/or accompanied with a carrier. But when it develops a meta with mirage mirrors then it becomes a problem and that can easily be solved by distributing the actual damage among the clones just like Cernos prime, the huge damage is distributed among the arrows fired which saves it from being excessively OP. So, if mirage clones+simulor executes the damage as a single simulor then it'll no longer be an annoying meta mechanic and again for the frame power specialty, the weapon damage will get a proportional buff if used with mirage clones which will be distributed among the clones and as a whole it'll act like a single simulor with but extra damage. I hope I've successfully made this clear with my bad english. :)

Ember has already been reworked and she is doing okay now as her other abilities has somewhat synergy cause an ember player never forgets to use 'Accelerant' along with using 'Fire Blast' every once in a while. After the rework she is in good hands now & besides she is so vulnerable when using her powers so she has some major weaknesses as well. If you really wanna talk about tweaking then talk about tonkor which spoils the funs in the battlefield as regardless of being able to kill it or not it throws out enemies across the map stealing all the chances from other team mates.

Apologies if any of my words felt otherwise to anyone.

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by AhmadIvu

[R34LM]

10 hours ago, Jackviator said:

"But the abilities, especially WoF, don't scale well past level 50-60ish."

That doesn't matter. Scaling almost ceased to be a factor in this game as soon as Void 2.0 launched. Outside of Sorties and Raids, there just isn't a reason to care about enemy scaling, no reason to go for longer and longer Survival and Defense runs. Endless relic missions are too inconsistent for people to reliably make squads for them anyway, and aren't even always available, plus they got rid of one of the only reasons people did them in the first place, that is to say, getting more than one drop from a key/relic.

People have always cheesed the game to make grind easier. It used to be, when grind was higher end towards 80 and 100, no one gave a damn about Ember and just went with a Loki/Nova/Vauban combo or the like (hint: they still do). Now that grind is around 30-50, Ember magically becomes overpowered.

It's just another form of cheese. 30-50 level's are essentially nothing to well-built AoE frames, so Ember, of course, will overpower them. Your argument for not doing solo is simply because the affinity loss is too great. If all you're doing is just leveling one weapon after another I have to question whether you are playing for fun or more work. Either you do solo or a premade group if you want feel like you are doing someting for the team, or you can deal with the Ember and get your affinity; you pick.

As for the option you are choosing, nothing will be done about it. Nerfing Ember to have less damage scaling than she has now would be pointless(you don't see her on sorties much for good reason); plus, WoF has gone through numerous versions already and I doubt they want to waste time beating a dead horse when they really ought to rework entire frames like Limbo or Hydroid.

Edited November 29, 2016 by R34LM

[-N7-Leonhart]

#funForTheWholeSquad

[low1991]

15 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

Okay we can do that. But what other combos are there? Honestly curious.

Other combos, can be consist of other frame' ability + Simulor. (ie, irava' #3 + Simulor)

[radastir]

10 hours ago, ssh83 said:

Post like this is what's killing the game.

Warframe is all about options and letting people play however they want.

Restricting options kills the main thing that sets Warframe apart.  All for what?  Some dude's ego?

Well said. Calling for nerfs is the new griefing.

[NeonNemesis]

11 hours ago, ssh83 said:

Post like this is what's killing the game.

Warframe is all about options and letting people play however they want.

Restricting options kills the main thing that sets Warframe apart.  All for what?  Some dude's ego?

This guy's post deserves to be placed next to each OP's asking for nerfs.

90% or more of the nerf threads aren't even asking for balance, they are instead some sort of rant from a guy who felt like he was being emasculated due to someone picking something that can kill faster than him and him feeling useless.

Ember's 4 broken? She's only god tier at low levels, you want to balance the game around low levels?

About Mirage+simulor what annoys me more isn't the noise or the damage, what annoys me are the players which you can see they suck so hard that can only mindlessly spam left click that are in escavations and don't let people grab the power cores because they don't even know they can detonate the orbs.

[Jackviator]

3 hours ago, NeonNemesis said:

She's only god tier at low levels, you want to balance the game around low levels?

I mean... There's really no reason besides Sorties and the like to go into higher levels. There was with Void 1.0 in order to last longer in things like defense and survival, but with Void 2.0, the star chart is basically all we have to deal with now for the most part.

So yeah, I don't see why the game as it is now shouldn't be balanced around star-chart levels.

[----Dante----]

why ppls keep saying that ember is only good vs low lvls

if you didnt realized yet everything current game has to offer is low lvl lel.

[Misgenesis]

Having a Ember in my squad is amusing because it really says much about the player if they come with WoF permanently on. And WoF at least falls off quicker.

But Simulor Mirages are legitimately unfun. I cant be bothered to out try hard them in a mission so i usually just stop doing anything or quit.

[NeonNemesis]

24 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I mean... There's really no reason besides Sorties and the like to go into higher levels. There was with Void 1.0 in order to last longer in things like defense and survival, but with Void 2.0, the star chart is basically all we have to deal with now for the most part.

So yeah, I don't see why the game as it is now shouldn't be balanced around star-chart levels.

Yet like you said sorties still exist, if you balance everything around low levels can you imagine the pain it would be for sorties? It's already bad enough you get nitain, formas and 2k endo, but doing it with frames and weapons balanced to last only around lvl 30 or 40?

Besides there are still people that like to go on long endless missions, I've been getting a few in relic farms in hieracon, and trust me, none of those brought Ember even though it's against infested which ember tends to shine a lot because it end up falling so fast.

[PoobahTheGrand]

Spilling table salt is bad luck

Edited November 29, 2016 by PoobahTheGrand

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, NeonNemesis said:

Yet like you said sorties still exist, if you balance everything around low levels can you imagine the pain it would be for sorties?

Sorties can be quite easily adjusted to compensate. The levels could be lowered to something much more in line with the star chart if a reasonable balance paradigm made level 100 content unplayable. And it's not like changing the levels of sorties is a huge undertaking by the dev team; it's just changing a few numbers in a spreadsheet. 

[Callback]

19 hours ago, Fast_98 said:

 new meta weapon (tonkor...) that goes well with Mirage. 

Have you never seen bounce house of mirrors?  It's like simulor spam but it doesn't tank everyone's framerate.  Still wipes the map clean.

 

But yeah, I miss old void where things were actually high-end and people had a reason to make strong groups for long endless missions.  They need to rework enemy scaling.  Have their health go up faster and their damage WAY slower.  We cheese CC because we have to.  Because even at lv40 some enemy types are able to one-shot most frames.

 

Ember is strong when she is overleveled for the content, just like any frame.  The problem is shoving 80% of the game into that low level content, yet the way scaling is they have to since anything above that is a binary between death and CC cheese.  Fix scaling, fix how inconsistent damage output is for some weapons, and get the enemies tougher faster.  

 

You're complaining about AoE trash clear.  The real problem is that 80% of the game is still trash to be cleared.

[CTanGod]

Let's murder all AOE damage frames and abilities aswell as all AOE weapons, surely THAT will make the game better when we have to waste 1h to finish an exterminate because "FUN-KILLING" frames and weapons exist. Warframe is about speed and farm not tactical decisions. How many more frames must we destroy before we kill the game?

Also how are we gonna fix scaling? In what way? Scaling exists to force you to leave or be smart, there's no other way scaling can be in Warframe other than by making all weapons be essentially pea shooters and balance all content around lvl 30-40.... does that seem fun to you? And don't get me started with smarter AI when we can AOE them to death or CC-lock them.... or wait... that's what you guys want.... to NERF everything to the point of meaninglessness, well in that case I salute you since you are doing an exemplary job of it.

[Jackviator]

49 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

Let's murder all AOE damage frames and abilities aswell as all AOE weapons, surely THAT will make the game better

There's a difference between "murdering" and leveling the playing field a bit.

49 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

we have to waste 1h to finish an exterminate

They actually usually take at most 7ish minutes without an Ember or SynSim Mirage in the mix, and about 5 without. It's just that those 2ish minutes saved comes at the cost of the enjoyment of the rest of the squad... Which I think I've made rather clear/reiterated enough at this point, and as you yourself helpfully reminded others of:

49 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

"FUN-KILLING"

Yup.

Though the caps lock is a bit excessive...

In addition, there's a difference between "destroying" frames and leveling the playing field a bit.

49 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

Also how are we gonna fix scaling? In what way?

Adjusting how armor works on enemies and optionally on frames is a nice way to start. For example, it could be as simple as giving enemy armor a hard cap. Also, the suggested addition of shield-gating would help people not get one-shot at extreme levels.

We'd also have to consider the damage that weapons put out as well and adjust them accordingly to fit the new system, but that's more the job of damage 3.0 to fix, and that's another can of worms entirely.

49 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

that's what you guys want.... to NERF everything to the point of meaninglessness

There's a difference between "nerfing to the point of ridiculousness" and leveling the playing field a bit.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jackviator