My Biggest Issue with Warframe is MR.

[KamaNightfire]

Hello! Haven't been on these forums since around 2013, the same for Warframe as well. I'm an old-time player, from back during Closed Beta, and played continuously up until late 2013, quitting to play other games and such.

Recently, due to the over-all interest my friends have taken towards Warframe, I decided I'd join again, and see how much has changed, which has been plenty. The one thing I've seen that hasn't changed is how Warframe still locks exploring content behind Mastery Ranks. I understand this for weapons, to prevent folks from obtaining end-game weaponry from the get-go, but I don't see the reason for allowing it for Story/Content Missions, such as " The War Within ", which requires MR5.

This isn't a problem for folks that don't mind re-grinding numerous weapons and Warframes for MR, but it puts folks that don't like changing up their play styles or choice in weapons at a stand-still, as there's currently no way to obtain Mastery without doing so. Why can I not be an expert at the selection of Weapons/Warframe I enjoy using?

This is my current example, a small cropping of my own account. http://imgur.com/a/ev6x9

I enjoying just " sticking to my guns ", it's how I enjoy playing Warframe and other games that allow it, spending more of my time obtaining modifications and lootations of all sorts, while using the weapons and warframe I enjoy. That 100% Usage is something I take pride in. (and from what I can recall, is no longer possible, due to market being locked behind at least one mission with the default setup. Unless you decide to stick with the default items in the start.)

Why isn't there a method to allow folks to obtain Mastery Experience using fully-leveled weapons, even if it's only a minuscule fraction of what can be obtained by leveling new gear? I've forma'd each of these items at least 8 times, and 90% of all the modifications at max rank, yet Mastery Rank is the only " judgement " of strength for content. Warframe focuses too much on " Use it and throw away. "

Some folks don't like the switching weapons and Warframes just because they have to, it takes control away from the player if they want to enjoy the game for what it has to offer, it doesn't matter if I use a Grakata or a Soma Prime, currently it's only the volume of weapons I've held in my hands that allows progress.

 

The TLDR; of what I'm saying is, Warframe needs alternatives to gaining Mastery that doesn't involve just " using new stuff ", even if they only give a minuscule amount in comparison to leveling new items, give players the choice to grow with what they like.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Hermaphrodite

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I agree, MR as it is right now doesnt necessarily reflect experience in the game

[egregiousRac]

To be fair, you can access the quest without switching weapons or frame. You have 13k exp left on the solar map. That leaves only 2k left to get, while a single sentinel will net you 6k plus 3k for its weapon. That would still show 100% for everything you have used. Same with Archwing. 6k each for the wing, 3k for the primary and melee.

Edited November 30, 2016 by egregiousRac

[bejuizb]

Oh my goodness the dual ether mains :D

 

I do agree that for those who like sticking to a loadout, Mastery sucks. Devs tried to change this around with the Focus system, but that is a bag of nonsense at the end of the day too. 

[KamaNightfire]

12 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

To be fair, you can access the quest without switching weapons or frame. You have 13k exp left on the solar map. That leaves only 2k left to get, while a single sentinel will net you 6k plus 3k for its weapon. That would still show 100% for everything you have used. Same with Archwing. 6k for the wing, 3k for the primary and melee.

I do still need to obtain experience for my Archwing, as it wasn't around during my playtime, as well as a few " new " locations on the map. Still, it seems only a matter of time before Mastery Rank blocks off further content. I do believe Riven modifications are currently Mastery locked as well. My Dethcube and it's weapon is maxed.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Hermaphrodite

[UncaIroh]

The point of making you use new weapons and frames is so you have the opportunity to try out everything, and form your own opinions on said weapons/frames. Now some players will use this opportunity to make a weapon work and have an informed opinion about all the weapons. Others, like you, will probably just leech off shared exp in whatever exp grind mission for the MR and never even try to understand all weapons and frames. 

To each their own. It's an inconvenience at worst to force you to use a weapon that isn't your favorite. If you want a way to stick to your favorites and earn mastery, level only one thing at a time. That's means you can still use 3 of your favorites while leveling the one thing.

As for me, I've been playing long enough that I actually go back and try out all sorts of weird combos since I have little left to do other than sortie grind.

And now with rivens, you might reconsider your stance to stick to your favorites.

I don't mind them changing things up, but DE has a lot of bigger things to work on.

Edited November 30, 2016 by TonyWong

[KamaNightfire]

7 minutes ago, TonyWong said:

The point of making you use new weapons and frames is so you have the opportunity to try out everything, and form your own opinions on said weapons/frames. Now some players will use this opportunity to make a weapon work and have an informed opinion about all the weapons. Others, like you, will probably just leech off shared exp in whatever exp grind mission for the MR and never even try to understand all weapons and frames. 

To each their own. It's an inconvenience at worst to force you to use a weapon that isn't your favorite.

And now with rivens, you might reconsider your stance to stick to your favorites.

I don't mind them changing things up, but DE has a lot of bigger things to work on.

To make the assumption that others would " Leech " for MR is a bit of a low-blow, especially when you compare it to myself, one who once out-topped the majority in missions when group-play was involved, at least during my time. There's no need to understand a new frame by playing it, when information about it can be gained from friends, videos, and the wiki itself. You don't need to use a frame or weapon to know how it works, and to play along with strengths.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Hermaphrodite

[RawGritz]

5 minutes ago, Hermaphrodite said:

 You don't need to use a frame or weapon to know how it works.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Because your playstyle, ways of modding and preference factor into how a Frame will be used. Only your hands-on experience can tell what to do with all that second-hand info gained from other sources.

Edited November 30, 2016 by RawGritz

[KamaNightfire]

8 minutes ago, RawGritz said:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Because your playstyle, ways of modding and preference factor into how a Frame will be used. Only you hands-on experience can tell what to do with second-hand info gained from other sources.

Just out of curiosity, could you give an example of " second-hand " information? If every Warframe can be modified to the taste of its user, how would another individual be able to make use of any information they gained with using it themselves? Is there an option to view the modification setup of another players weapon and warframe from a glance, without first being told by the player? If not, how would one know how to play with the strengths of that individual player if any number of modifications can sway the strength and range of a warframe's abilities. A simple review of the wiki or video showcasing all the abilities and how they work is all the information that is needed, there's nothing gained from playing it yourself, as the warframe acts the same for everyone, and doesn't shift outside of modifications.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Hermaphrodite

[Rhekemi]

Mastery Rank does have issues (including inconsistent gating based on MR), and it's significance as a representation of skill or playing time isn't very accurate or helpful.

At it's core, and ignoring individual players (who may well be truly experts at MR20+, or experts at MR4) MR shows how much stuff you've ranked to level 30.

That said, I think the biggest issue is the lost time, and all the catching up you have to do in MR. There are indeed some weapons and nodes that require you to be MR8 (the Orcus relay on Pluto), MR12 (very powerful syndicate weapons).

I disagree about being forced to use what you don't like, though. Ranking up new gear for the MR doesn't really force us to change up our playstyle or not use our favorites for any significant amount of time. Two runs of Heiracon, Pluto, is enough to rank up most gear to level 30 if you stay to 1200 cryotic or thereabouts. That's just two missions in one day to rank up an item I can then shelve and go back to my favorites.

If I happen to like the new stuff, I will return to it, forma it, optimize it. If I don't, I shelve it.

All it requires is a small amount of time, the right node, and resources to build the items.

Clearing the junctions rewards you with free blueprints, btw, so that's a chunk of credits you don't need to spend on those weapon BPs. (I've actually gotten weapons I didn't already own by clearing junctions, despite having already cleared the old star chart.)

Edited November 30, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Maicael]

33 minutes ago, Hermaphrodite said:

Some folks don't like the switching weapons and Warframes just because they have to, it takes control away from the player if they want to enjoy the game for what it has to offer

Various Warframes and weapons (and freely switching between them based on the mission you want to do) is quite a large part of what Warframe has to offer.

It's kinda like Space Mom working hard to fix a hot and fresh dinner for you to try, but you turn it down for your usual bowl of cereal, then she goes back to her room to cry into her pillow so you don't hear her, but you do anyway.............or something like that.

[Rhekemi]

15 minutes ago, Hermaphrodite said:

A simple review of the wiki or video showcasing all the abilities and how they work is all the information that is needed, there's nothing gained from playing it yourself, as the warframe acts the same for everyone, and doesn't shift outside of modifications.

One thing you have to often learn on your own: how to optimize it based on the mods you actually have access to. Often the reviews and wikis present optimization formulas that a player might not have access to because they don't have X mod. Sometimes even when you ask for advice, you get the meta that assumes you have X mod, or tells you to just get it and use that--without giving you tips on any other kind of play style or optimization formula. Often no one will teach you specifically which mods you need to get the desired results with what you have. 

Likewise, if I want some niche build that most people don't talk about or use, I have to experiment on my own. Even if I'll fail, it's something I want to try. It's boring to be told: Don't bother with X. It's trash. Use Y. Extremely boring, and often condescending. People do it all the time, though. Because WF's all about efficiency.

Yet it's also all about playing how you want.

Contradictions.

Yeah, I know often DE hasn't given item X the love it needs to be viable, but that's not good enough.

Back in the day, I saw many more experienced players tell new members not to use shotguns, even if they liked them. Instead build X rifle, they said. Me, I'm like, if you like a shotty, use a shotty. It isn't endgame, but for your level, it'll be fine, esp. if you enjoy it. I myself liked my Strun Wraith at the time, and was warming to the Hek.

A few weeks/months later, DE buffed the hell out of shotties and they remain viable beasts, depending on which one you choose for your level of mission.

DE inherently wants everything to be viable, so it's why we will always get buffs and nerfs, and why they go on seek and destroy missions for too powerful metas, and archaic press 4 to win abilities. They want all options to be viable, even though that's a lofty concept and hard to achieve.

So that's a host of reasons already.

Then there are also the personal concerns of any given player about how something looks, feels, plays, sounds.

Maybe the person who used it in the video had an ugly color scheme. I like to color things myself, and so does every other Fashion 'Framer.

Maybe they talked over sound effects. I like experiencing how new stuff sounds.

Maybe their graphics set up is different from yours. I like to see how it looks on my machine.

Reviews, videos, can all be very helpful, but there's no substitute for test driving something new for yourself.

I've also never been one to accept people's advice on what I'll like or not like. Gotta decide that for myself. (Unless you actually know me well enough, which no one here does.)

Edited November 30, 2016 by Rhekemi

[RawGritz]

Again I don't agree. 

1. Second-hand info is any info you obtain from any method that is not direct hands-on experience. If "hands-on experience" is you doing it yourself. Then "second-hand exp" is someone else doing it and then telling you about it or you watching it in a video.

2 DE never really reveals every nuance to a Warframe and how the ability is affected by mods, arcanes and such. For instance they just started listing passives in-game fairly recently.

3. It was quite a while after Nekro's introduction that I realized self-damaging yourself (w/ explosion from glaive for ex.) while playing Nekros with a vacuum mod on your sentinel meant endless health regen (desecrate generates health & vacuum vacuums). Slap on a mildly ranked Equilibrium mod and its endless health and energy...roughly.) There are so many ways to combine the different features and systems in this game that it makes it difficult for every possible nuance of every configuration can be detailed and reported on...

4. Or that Arcane Trickery and Arcane Ultimatum on Inaros with a good melee for finisher, feels incredibly rewarding for me.

The last two, I have never seen covered and were things I discovered on my own that added new life to some weapons, frames and game features. It one of the more compelling aspects of Warframe.

My point... You should really step out of your comfort zone and experiment around a bit. Nothing good comes from stagnant waters.

[UncaIroh]

23 minutes ago, Hermaphrodite said:

To make the assumption that others would " Leech " for MR is a bit of a low-blow, especially when you compare it to myself, one who once out-topped the majority in missions when group-play was involved, at least during my time. There's no need to understand a new frame by playing it, when information about it can be gained from friends, videos, and the wiki itself. You don't need to use a frame or weapon to know how it works, and to play along with strengths.

No? It's what I see when I run missions. Some people bring 3 good weapons and 1 for leveling and never use the leveling one. In essence, that weapon is "leeching". A player might be doing very well and contributing, but if you never used the leveling weapon, what do you call it? If you can find a better word for leveling a weapon without using it, I'd love to know and I'll use that. Now if you DO use the weapon or frame to its fullest while leveling it, I apologize for assuming you don't.

On the second point, I disagree with you that second hand info is as good as using it yourself. It's good to do your research, but confirm for yourself when you can. If they talk about weaknesses, how do you make it work? Which frames/mods can make it viable? If there are strengths, which will enhance those? 

At the end of the day using these personally makes us better, or at least wiser, players. It's not even an issue of earning MR points.

[Rhekemi]

16 minutes ago, TonyWong said:

No? It's what I see when I run missions. Some people bring 3 good weapons and 1 for leveling and never use the leveling one. In essence, that weapon is "leeching". A player might be doing very well and contributing, but if you never used the leveling weapon, what do you call it? If you can find a better word for leveling a weapon without using it, I'd love to know and I'll use that. Now if you DO use the weapon or frame to its fullest while leveling it, I apologize for assuming you don't.

I actually call leeching standing/sitting around doing nothing and leveling your gear while everyone else does all the work.

I thought that's how everyone saw it, so your post is news to me.

I use the new weapon to see how it hits, sounds, feels, reloads--to find out if I even like it, but it gets holstered fast when the enemies aren't dying fast enough, putting me, and the team in jeopardy. (I play public, so if I happen to be the team's heavy hitter, I can't afford to play with enemies. Often, though, I'm not the team's heavy hitter.)

I'm more prone to actually use it in a low level Fissure mission (for the duration of the mission). I can get a decent feel for what it does without jeopardizing any objectives with the weak weapon.

I'm going to continue bringing under-leveled gear, holstering it, and blasting away with the more effective weapon when I go leveling at Heiracon.  

Edited November 30, 2016 by Rhekemi

[UncaIroh]

Ok I'm splitting hairs here. The player isn't leeching if he's contributing. But if the weapon isn't being used... what word to use since "leeching" isn't applicable?

I'm not expecting an someone to give the specific word but the phenomenon of not using the under leveled weapon and still leveling it is very common.

Edited November 30, 2016 by TonyWong

[LuckyCharm]

The problem with MR isn't that it forces you to use new things. It's that you get no reward for using your old things. My 6 forma latron for example, I've leveled it 6 extra times on top of it's base but gained no "Mastery" for doing so, even though in actual fact, using it so much should in fact be mastering it. It's currently like saying if you've baked a cake once, you know all there is to baking cakes, so why bake more? Bake cookies instead? Done that? never need cookies any more. Go bake a pie. 

[Trittium00]

37 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

It's that you get no reward for using your old things. My 6 forma latron for example, I've leveled it 6 extra times

Well your 'reward' for putting forma on a weapon / frame is to increase the mod capacity and the ability to apply stronger mods. Isn't that reward enough for your investment?

Not sure what other kind of 'reward' you could possibly hope for when forma-ing gear.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 hours ago, RawGritz said:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Because your playstyle, ways of modding and preference factor into how a Frame will be used. Only your hands-on experience can tell what to do with all that second-hand info gained from other sources.

Yes! Yes! Yes! I thought Oberon was an awful warframe at first, now he's my favorite by an extensively large margin. People tend to not speak the truth about weapons and warframes. You gotta try stuff out yourself.

[Trittium00]

1 hour ago, TonyWong said:

But if the weapon isn't being used... what word to use since "leeching" isn't applicable?

I believe the correct term here is called "passively levelling".

And yes, this is a totally acceptable way to level up other weapons by utilising the shared affinity system, so long as you are contributing to the squad / pulling your weight.

It's like going to Akkad with your heavy hitting Tonkor as your main weapon, but passively levelling a junk secondary. You can still pull your weight.

What would be considered 'leeching' is going to Akkad with rank 0 everything and hiding in a corner, not contributing to your squad.

[lodoubt]

Mastery Rank is there to incentivise exploring the overwhelming bulk of Warframe's content, which is weapons and frames, not missions. Right now, all of the MR requirements in the game except for some Riven mods are trivially achieved. The quests have mastery requirements to make sure that your "main plot" experience of the game is adequately spaced out by "Filler episodes" of training with new weapons and frames, etc. Essentially ensuring that for story purposes you can be assumed to be a relatively experienced Tenno by that point.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Yes! Yes! Yes! I thought Oberon was an awful warframe at first, now he's my favorite by an extensively large margin. People tend to not speak the truth about weapons and warframes. You gotta try stuff out yourself.

Oberon is still an awful warframe ;C but he is incredibly fun to use, I use him whenever I can. Stuff you couldn't learn from the stats. Stuff like having sympathy for the plight of the team's Nekros is another thing you have to have played to understand.

Also, passively leveling really should be reserved for only the most hated and useless weapons (Sicarus and Shaku come to mind, I can't think of anything else right now. The weapon has to have bad stats *and* be super boring at the same time). I got to MR21 solely by cracking open a Level 0 Frame, Primary, Secondary and Melee all at the same time, and then Forma'ing frames to pair with the next sets of Primary, Secondary, Melee. Such that before they added the MR = Mod capacity thing at least, I would be replaying earlier levels and having a chance to mingle with an mentor new players. It's a good dynamic to have in any game.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

Guys you don't get it.. do you?

MR is a must for DE and for the continuity of the game.

I am MR 22, and what makes me still wanna play besides that i like the game, is the fact that i am so close to hit MR 23. and can't wait for the release of new weapons and frames.

Of course my aim is to reach MR 30 but this won't happen before 10 years.

So DE has somehow guaranteed that even if i take a break from time to time  i have to come back for the next MR.

It's all about business and $$$.

It's like a bicycle, if the wheels stop from turning, you will fall down.

[lodoubt]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

WAKE UP SHEEPLE

Well like, yeah, DE going bankrupt would also be a problem for the game's development cycle. But MR requirements are primarily about spacing content out more effectively, which is both a financial *and* gameplay experience concern.

[LuckyCharm]

2 hours ago, Trittium00 said:

Well your 'reward' for putting forma on a weapon / frame is to increase the mod capacity and the ability to apply stronger mods. Isn't that reward enough for your investment?

Not sure what other kind of 'reward' you could possibly hope for when forma-ing gear.

Well I could easily hope for MR, since DE keep tying things to it. Like how many mods points I can put on things when I re-forma, How many void traces I can have, how much syndicate cap I have for things... it makes no sense that I probably have like 80 billion experience on my latron, but all that's counted is the first 30 levels. Because it considers me a master of it as soon as I hit 30

[lodoubt]

Mastery rank is your overall prowess. Sure, you can specialise and specialise in your Latron, but that doesn't give you any more transferable aptitude in understanding how to use a Quanta or whatever.

As it stands, MR is simply the hard mechanical incentive to generalise and experience many different types of equipment. Otherwise, there wouldn't be one, since you can't swap your loadout mid-mission, you don't actually gain much mechanical versatility from doing so.

If you want to pick a weird hill and then go die on it, it isn't really DE's job to give you a gold star for that.