Test Before You Talk

[Jackviator]

1 hour ago, TheDefenestrater said:

Sorry, drifting contact affects the combo counter, which affects the blade itself, and by proxy the waves.  Blood rush doesn't for some dumb reason.   The waves don't gain combo hits without slash procs triggering relentless combination.  The blade itself always gains a combo hit.  Like I said, it'd be a different build with a different play style that most people don't even consider.  It's a possibility that everyone's simply written off because someone made the blanket statement that those types of mods don't effect exalted melees, which is false.

One of the DE staff actually confirmed that Drifting Contact affecting the exalted melees is actually gonna be patched out soon, so it acts just like Body Count, Blood Rush and all the rest of the Shadow Debt mods, aka not working at all, for some unknowable reason. Dunno why they don't want weapons that cost energy to use to actually be more effective than those that don't, and not the other way around, but whaddaya gonna do. I guess in their heads giving an extended combo reset timer is OP. Somehow...

[Noamuth]

On 12/3/2016 at 5:50 PM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Jack of all trades; MASTER OF NONE

People always seem to forget that second part. It is why he will never be considered good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

People seem to forget the last half of the saying.  Hell, they seem to forget how the saying even goes.

I have to agree with OP; it's aggrevating to see a favored 'frame talked into a nerf by people that don't know it.  

Edited December 5, 2016 by Viltemri

[SenorClipClop]

4 minutes ago, Viltemri said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

People seem to forget the last half of the saying.

Well said, though I seem to have found a specialization that Oberon has, that thing he's a master of.

I believe that Oberon is specialized in protecting and saving your team's butts. Oberon is the only Warframe I know of that combines a respectable instant heal with some good solid crowd control, and at least a handful more damage than some other supports.

[Noamuth]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

Well said, though I seem to have found a specialization that Oberon has, that thing he's a master of.

I believe that Oberon is specialized in protecting and saving your team's butts. Oberon is the only Warframe I know of that combines a respectable instant heal with some good solid crowd control, and at least a handful more damage than some other supports.

Now I want to get his Systems, just so I can try this. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

14 minutes ago, Viltemri said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

People seem to forget the last half of the saying.  Hell, they seem to forget how the saying even goes.

I have to agree with OP; it's aggrevating to see a favored 'frame talked into a nerf by people that don't know it.  

From your own source:

Quote

Today, the phrase used in its entirety generally describes a person whose knowledge, while covering a number of areas, is superficial in all of them.

 

[45neo]

On 12/3/2016 at 1:13 PM, DogManDan said:

Broberon for life - ask anyone who watches me on youtube!

 

Also the issue stems really from "large & popular" channels who over the years have put everyone who follows in a certain mindset; if you don't play at max with the meta or what they believe to be correct based on some hypothetical calculated mathematically setup mod scheme than anything else is going to be wrong. I will never give up my fight against people who are like that instead of just learning how to actually play something first and not just by a calculation!

Oberon is pretty decent... I think it's just that Oberon in some ways has no direct focus so it gets out shined by other frames. the 1 is better than most 1's but people don't care about 1's now days, the 2 is... unique, a radiation mat is always nice and the no knock down helps, the 3 is easily outclassed by trinity, mind you trinity is better than pretty well any other frame for healing, the augments do help with oberon's 3, Oberon's 4 is mags crush with radiation damage, more enemy stun time and give's health orbs if enemies die, good for cc and somewhat damage. 

Thing is there are many frames I would rather play to get these effects. I.e. Mag's crush, though slightly weaker I prefer mags overall play style with mag's abilities rather than oberon's abilities when playing cc. For no knock down tanking I go trin, why cause I can (2 75% damage reductions is awesome). For healing again trinity, self explanatory, if you want a healer you want a healer who can heal team members instantly upon request because that saves lives.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jackviator said:

One of the DE staff actually confirmed that Drifting Contact affecting the exalted melees is actually gonna be patched out soon, so it acts just like Body Count, Blood Rush and all the rest of the Shadow Debt mods, aka not working at all, for some unknowable reason. Dunno why they don't want weapons that cost energy to use to actually be more effective than those that don't, and not the other way around, but whaddaya gonna do. I guess in their heads giving an extended combo reset timer is OP. Somehow...

yeah, I liked Shy's opinion on those mods when they came out...  basically, body count's great, but why is it a thing to begin with?  why not just make the standard combo duration useful instead off a pathetic 3 seconds?

[Thebel]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

From your own source:

 

Oh man if you look at the phrases in other languages, it's about as negative as it gets.

Moroccan Arabic: سبع صنايع والرزق ضايع ("The one who knows seven trades but has no wealth")

Czech: Devatero řemesel, desátá bída. ("Nine crafts, tenth is misery")

Korean: 열 두 가지 재주 가진 놈이 저녁거리가 없다 ("A man of twelve talents has nothing to eat for dinner")

Spain: Maestro Liendre, que de todo sabe y de nada entiende. ("Knows about everything but understands nothing")

 

[Noamuth]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

From your own source:

 

I'm sorry but you seem to be confused.  I was not weighing in on your arguement against Oberons viability, in fact if you read my comment again, at no point do I specify a Warframe nor do I take a stance on one, but rather correcting your misquote.

[SeaUrchins]

Well, I wasn't wrong thinking Oberon is lame for defence if 55 waves on Lua is all you have achieved with him.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 hours ago, SeaUrchins said:

Well, I wasn't wrong thinking Oberon is lame for defence if 55 waves on Lua is all you have achieved with him.

That was months ago though, and I don't use any of those builds anymore. A new, long, defense run will just have to be on my to-do list.

[(PSN)antonislak]

On 12/3/2016 at 10:10 PM, Tailion said:

It does not always take alot, or any testing to understand the flaws of a frame. Less then 5 minutes of testing with nezha and i could tell that he is crap compared to rhino due to poor scaling and awful animation times. Numbers and an understanding of how the game works makes it take very little time to sort some things out.

 

Some things like certain mods can take a good bit of testing to figure out its quirks, but frames stats, skills, and scaling are very easy to read and easy to understand. Zephyr for example (to me) is crap because her 1 & 2 are pointless when parkour exists, her 3 is actually pretty good (very good with the augment) but mesa has the same effect on her 3 and brings ALOT more to the table and when it comes to Zephyr's 4 its unreliable, expensive, and does very little that i cant do with other skills or just using the Sonicor.

Watch your tongue boy, Nezha is legit 

[ArcaneSnowdrop]

On 12/3/2016 at 3:35 PM, Tailion said:

Lets look at Nezha shall we? for the sake of this we shall ignore augments since rhino has been around for longer and has more of them

[snip]

Nezha: Nezha's 1 is nice if you like going fast and can remove status from allies (pretty helpful), out side of the extra mobilty it does very little. Nezha's 2 tosses out a low damage chakram that can restore some health (scales off of power str so it can heal a decent chunk of health) in a small area, the chakram can be activated again to teleport which is cool, but not all that helpful given Nezha's innate mobility. Nezha's 3 is a worse base and scaling version of Rhino's 2 with small CC on it, but it has a rather long cast time which has gotten me killed more then once both during simulacrum testing and real mission testing (thanks to nullifiers and bombards). Nezha's 4 is yet again a worse version of Rhino's 4, less then half the duration and a good bit less range with annoying cast animations on the up, and down for the spears, Nezha's 4 can also be useless vs infested thanks to ancients. So in Summary 2 of Nezha's abilities are worse versions of Rhino's with bad animation times (which natural talent can only fix so much) which leave Nezha's 1 & 2 which are both good enough for what they are thanks to the mobility and slight supportive effects. Nezha does bring CC, survivability, and minor supportive roles but Rhino does it better, the only real way Rhino loses is mobility, if you wanta go fast then Nezha is great but for long haul high challenge missions Nezha is just outclassed by a frame that already existed. This is all before you take into account Augments which make Rhino;s key ability, Iron Skin, MUCH stronger and easier to use.

Snipped Rhino stuff because that's not my focus here. I think you've misread Nezha, quite a lot.

Nezha's 1 is actually very good for CC. I have a lot of duration on my Nezha primarily for his 1, and it's not uncommon for me to coat a medium-sized room in flames. These flames tend to send enemies flailing, and either I can run up and melee them, my allies can shoot them, or they can burn to death (this is actually fairly common for me.) Combined with the mobility boost and the status removal, and it behooves you to drop a few energy pads at the beginning so you can turn it on ASAP (the only 'downside' is probably the toggle, in that you can't regain energy via Trinity/energy pad/energy siphon when it's on.) His second is probably his worst ability, in that it can be very finicky. You need to be aware of where you are when you are casting and have to aim properly to hit things. When used right, though, it is actually a great emergency heal. His 3 is technically worse by numbers, but that slash bubble is useful, and, in my experience, it protects your sentinel. As for the animation time problem, I haven't had problems with it, but I pay attention when casting it. The /one/ mission I had huge issues with was an eximus survival Sortie with the Corpus, and /everyone/ in my team was dying, so it wasn't unique to Nezha. His 4 is probably second-worst, in that it doesn't usually kill instantly and doesn't cause any DOT, and the casting animations are...problematic, especially the last one. But the CC is actually a good panic button when trying to revive someone/recast his 3, and it makes it a lot easier to deal with things like bombards, napalms, and heavy gunners.

Also, Nezha and Rhino, despite the mechanical similarity of Iron Skin and Warding Halo, are really not similar frames. Rhino is a brute-force Warframe--you're supposed to make your own path of least resistance through the battlefield (d**n the torpedoes, full steam ahead!). Nezha, meanwhile, is all about mobility and speed--you need to be a little more attentive with him. Also, Nezha is a more supportive Warframe than Rhino (especially when you look at their augments; Rhino's help him, Nezha's helps others.) You've compared apples to mushrooms--both delicious, both can work together, but they're not really that similar.

[Deathkgt]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 0:35 PM, Tailion said:

 

 

Lets look at Nezha shall we? for the sake of this we shall ignore augments since rhino has been around for longer and has more of them

Rhino: Rhino's 1 carries good CC for cheap, fast animation times and is cheap since it is a 1. Rhino's 2 is a VERY strong ability due it its cheap cost, scaling, and ability to ignore status and such. Rhino's 3 is a very strong all purpose damage buff where as other buff frames (Like Banshee) can be a bit more circumstantial, this buff is helpful to both rhino and his team. Rhino's 4 is a fairly well scaling ability that gives CC and finisher options with decent animation speeds. So in summary Rhino's 2, 3, and 4 are all very good abilities and his 1 is good enough for a 1, he brings CC,survivability, and damage buffs in a single frame and can do it all in 1 build fairly easily.

 

Nezha: Nezha's 1 is nice if you like going fast and can remove status from allies (pretty helpful), out side of the extra mobilty it does very little. Nezha's 2 tosses out a low damage chakram that can restore some health (scales off of power str so it can heal a decent chunk of health) in a small area, the chakram can be activated again to teleport which is cool, but not all that helpful given Nezha's innate mobility. Nezha's 3 is a worse base and scaling version of Rhino's 2 with small CC on it, but it has a rather long cast time which has gotten me killed more then once both during simulacrum testing and real mission testing (thanks to nullifiers and bombards). Nezha's 4 is yet again a worse version of Rhino's 4, less then half the duration and a good bit less range with annoying cast animations on the up, and down for the spears, Nezha's 4 can also be useless vs infested thanks to ancients. So in Summary 2 of Nezha's abilities are worse versions of Rhino's with bad animation times (which natural talent can only fix so much) which leave Nezha's 1 & 2 which are both good enough for what they are thanks to the mobility and slight supportive effects. Nezha does bring CC, survivability, and minor supportive roles but Rhino does it better, the only real way Rhino loses is mobility, if you wanta go fast then Nezha is great but for long haul high challenge missions Nezha is just outclassed by a frame that already existed. This is all before you take into account Augments which make Rhino;s key ability, Iron Skin, MUCH stronger and easier to use.

 

Nezha is a MUCH better support frame than Rhino.  Nezha Warding Halo Augment made him better than Rhino with any of his augment.  The fact that he can now protect allies and operatives in defense/rescue sortie missions makes him invaluable.  Imagine giving everyone immunity to status and with around 1-2k in hitpoints.  Like the OP stated, you are one of those people have not build an effective Nezha before you comment on this subject.   

[tnccs215]

Quite honestly, what irks me about Oberon goes much beyond "oh he's good/bad".

Truth be told, "good" is a very subjective term in these matters, and too many people are using it (and equivalents) without defining it first. With that in mind, I will do so myself:

In these forums. There is an obvious clash between "good" as an equivalent to "efficient" (i.e. Capable of having (more than) a satisfying performance in doing a certain task) and as an equivalent to "well designed" (i.e. Being efficient, but not overpowered; unique, useful, non-redundant and sinergetic abilities; good scaling;  etc). Even though I myself admit that "well designed" is itself a concept somewhat loosely defined -- and that, in a game with such f*cked up progression as Warframe, so is being efficient (having people defending that frames that can instantly destroy level 9999 enemies are perfectly balanced and acceptable in addition to people that find 55 waves on lua to be mediocre in this very thread kinda shows that) -- these are concepts much more concrete than "good", and even though what is "good design" and "efficiency" can be discussed, the range of that discussion is much narrower and specific, allowing for clearer and more on-point arguing.

This is all to say, of course, that despite having here way too many pages of people arguing whether Oberon's efficiency is acceptable or not; In my honestly opinion, I find him quite efficient... But I still don't think he's in a good place, and I still think he could use a rework -- because, honestly, he is not well designed.

Yes, he is quite decend in crowd control, quite okay in healing, and acceptable in dealing damage. But he has cardinal flaws that simply kill him in my eyes -- despite trully wanting to like him, because his freyarch skin is simply gorgeous.

First, his powers are redundant. Brutally redundant. Warframe came to have abundant sources of energy to the point it almost never is a problem (and since I think powers are cool, I quite like the idea of being able to use them very often... Though just like coptering needed parkour 2.0 in order to get "oficial" and cleaner, so does the current energy system). The result is that the outdated "weaker, the same but less expensive" power archetype simply doesn't make sense. Each power should be unique, and DE has learned that, having newer ultimates that offer a change of paradigm instead of a full blown nuke, as well as abilities that, even if slightly overlapping, always maintain uniqueness in a kit.

Oberon, on the other hand, does not benefit from this new mentality, to the point that each time DE touches Oberon, it seems like they regress themselves. Oberon has this power archetype all over his kit.

On lower levels, there is no reason to use any power besides Reckoning: It deals damage (makes Hallowed Ground's and Smite's damage redundant), deals Radiation status effects (Smite becomes more redundant), deals Knockdown (again, Smite becomes even more redundant), and has a chance of spawning health orbs (makes Renewal redundant). It also deals blind (a unique feature), and features higher damage, range and overall values than other abilities -- effectively making all other abilities more than redundant: They are completely irrelevant.

I admit this redundancy diminishes a bit as the enemies scale, enemy status effects become more important, and Reckoning stops killing enemies, but it is present at all levels nonetheless, and in no way does it erases the problems existent at lower levels:

Hallowed Ground can be considered a bit more valuable -- but only due to its capability of protecting those standing from status effects of any kind, and that, though useful, is only so in such niche situations and demands such a maximized build that it becomes less relevant (plus, since Reckoning has an augment that allows it to patch the ground with smaller hallowed grounds, one could argue it still is irrelevant -- though I lack the experience and the augment, so I'll hold this as an hypothesis only).

Renewal becomes more useful as a healing ability, but only because Reckoning is no longer able to squeeze health orbs out of enemies -- were it not the loss of Reckoning's effectiveness, it too would continue to be mostly irrelevant. Even its status clearing capabilities are second to hallowed ground's. Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy.

Smite is useless. It simply is, and is so because every single thing it has to offer at high levels is also offered by Reckoning, but worse. Its knockdown and radiation effects are second to Reckoning's in every single way, no exceptions; and Reckoning even has additional features that scale themselves-- the blind effect in particular.

Older frames used to obey the "ultimate as a more powerful version of the first ability" archetype; an archetype I already argued outdated and poor, exactly because it falls in redundancy of at least the first and last powers. But Oberon went further: All his powers are redundant with his ultimate. Frankly, I think that's very, very bad design.

Despite finding this redundancy to be his biggest issue, his problems go beyond it, specially in the matter that most of them are all "almost good" (in particular Renewal, Hallowed Ground, and the blind from Reckoning). Many need "just a thing" to actually be confortable. Many are almost, but not quite, enough. You know how the base sybaris' magazine seems to always end too soon? That's the feeling I get when playing Oberon. In particular with Hallowed Ground: Weird shape, doesn't give a good enough armor boost -- which, since it's a percentual boost, only benefits the ones that least need it -- doesn't last long enough, isn't big enough. Just not enough. Where it to be circular, last longer, and give base armor boost instead of percentual, I'd consider it a perfectly acceptable ability. But, as it is, I'll just use it for when I need status protection and don't want to take any cheese frame (or Titania) that grants so.

Indeed, Hallowed Ground itself also suffers a major flaw that is, too, present in Renewal: It's schyzofrenic interaction with stats. Sure, some might find it "interesting" -- I used to do so too -- but truth is, the whole point of corrupted mods is trade offs, and when negative values are beneficial for a frame, or when some stats can be considered "dead", than you have a poorly made frame, that rewards min-maxing, and the forfeiting of some powers over others.

The truth is, as I see it, the newer frames that demand all stats (str, rng, dur) to be considered, end up allowing a much bigger variety of builds: Instead of virtually ignoring powers, and go for a max power strength or max range or anything, you end up milimetrically adjusting your build to you and you only. But Oberon still rewards the opposite. Renewal still rewards negative duration, Hallowed Ground/Reckoning still reward maximized range. Sure, Oberon is no Loki, in which there is no reason at all to build for power strength, and yes, balanced builds aren't ridiculous in Oberon. But min-maxed builds are still very much efficient, even more so than balanced ones.

All in all, even though I won't go around saying he is trash tier, I refuse to admit he is perfectly acceptable. Because he is not.

I would like to say that the utilitarianism and conservadorism resurging in today's world are overflowing into the common mentality of these forums, and that shows in things like this. That the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" mentality runs rampant. That asking for improvements for something that isn't completely useless is cooked as heresy -- and even if it is useless, people are bound to contradict. And I'd be right to do so, honestly. But I'd be ignoring the other side of the coin:

Truth is, it's extremism in general that runs rampant. Actual feedback, long posts about the pros and cons of each aspect of the game have disappeared. The Warframes & Abilities Feedback subforum should now be called "State your poorly justified desired frame rework here + madly defend how the status quo is perfect" subforum. If in one hand you have people thinking that everything must be reworked; on the other you have people who think everything is perfect, all reworks are nerfs, and all nerfs are bad.

Rabid, brainless rambles that lost any resemblance of moderation, in any way, shape, or form.

I miss the days in which I'd daily check this subforums to read long, well written posts about each and all frames. But no. That's pointless now. Criticism is a nuisance, everyone knows arguing never got anyone anywhere, right? Of course, that demands a bit of modesty and the ability to accept oneselfs wrongfulness, but almost everyone in here seems so egregiously thickheaded that never happens.

Honestly, I no longer care. I no longer care about Oberon, I no longer care about this ever worsening, ever more toxic community, I no longer care about Warframe. I'm writing this more as a lament than anything else, and I bet half of this is going to be erased by a mod because "it's meta complaining".

Ugh. I honestly hope Oberon gets reworked, and I honestly hope this community returns to be the exemplary it once was. But I'm not gonna sit around and wait for it to happen.

Oh well, what does this matter anyway.

 

[DatDarkOne]

That still doesn't change my statement in regards to my experiences and observations during team missions.   Those experiences (mine) just happen to find it to be true more often than it isn't.  Experiences vary with each person. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

That still doesn't change my statement in regards to my experiences and observations during team missions.   Those experiences (mine) just happen to find it to be true more often than it isn't.  Experiences vary with each person. 

Except I can't think of a single time where Oberon would be a better choice in a party than another frame. 

If you have a different take on it then feel free to share. Even in something like a defense mission with only two players, you're better off taking Nova + Frost or Loki + Vauban.

Edited December 5, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Except I can't think of a single time where Oberon would be a better choice in a party than another frame. 

If you have a different take on it then feel free to share. Even in something like a defense mission with only two players, you're better off taking Nova + Frost or Loki + Vauban.

Not everyone cares to build every frame. My Oberon is a great help in any mission I bring him to.

Also, I like it when someone brings rates frames to a mission. It gets boring playing with a Mirage all the time

Edited December 5, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

Not everyone cars to build every frame. My Oberon is a great help in any mission I bring him to.

Neither do I. Even just the core 4 tends to out weigh him in every situation. 

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

If you have a different take on it then feel free to share. Even in something like a defense mission with only two players, you're better off taking Nova + Frost or Loki + Vauban.

Ivara and Nyx.  Razorwing Titania and Rhino.  Both of which I've done.  Quite successfully too.  I've found many interesting combinations outside of the established meta during PuGs.

edit: I didn't include Oberon only because I just don't see enough of him being played to make a judgement.

Edited December 5, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added info

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

Ivara and Nyx.  Razorwing Titania and Rhino.  Both of which I've done.  Quite successfully too.  I've found many interesting combinations outside of the established meta during PuGs.

And I have run Nova, solo, without powers. It doesn't make it efficient or a good idea.

I am not saying you can't play whatever you want. I am just saying that it is inefficient, which is what the entire argument is about. 

[tnccs215]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

He decided to argue semantics. I am just following suite, and pointed out that the source he cited is unreliable and un-sourced. And if I am the only one that cares, why was it other people that quoted it, repeatedly, and why are you flipping out about it?

I am not wrong though. If you want to argue the core issues, then go ahead, and I will, again, follow suite. Just don't expect me to stick to only the core issues while you argue semantics. 

Oh is that so? Well, since you like quotes so much, let's use some!

It all started here:

On 04/12/2016 at 1:50 AM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Jack of all trades; MASTER OF NONE

People always seem to forget that second part. It is why he will never be considered good.

This was an answer to when @(PS4)Darth-Escar described Oberon as a multitasker. effectively, you took the expression to your advantage, making an equivalent out of the first half (oh, the irony!) and adding the second -- plus an addedum to passively aggressively accuse Darth of, at least, a forgetful mind.

Darth followed with this:

On 04/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

He doesn't have to be a master, and even if he did, he can be considered the master multitasker. There is not much which Oberon can't do for you.

Answering to your point instead of your words -- a respect you sistematically deny any person that attempts to argue with you -- with Darth-Escar arguing directly that Oberon's worth is in that very essence, in that very versatility, and you asnwering with one liners that, quite honestly, have either no basis or are begging to be answered with a "{citation needed}".
Than, @Viltemri came to scene:

14 hours ago, Viltemri said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

People seem to forget the last half of the saying.  Hell, they seem to forget how the saying even goes.

I have to agree with OP; it's aggrevating to see a favored 'frame talked into a nerf by people that don't know it.  

At core, they said exactly the same that Darth-Escar did: that Oberon's worth is in his versatility.

However, if Darth was straigth forward, Viltemri was much more sublime, taking your very words, your very trick of taking advantage of old coloquial expressions in order to quasi-poetically support their point. Hell, they even said the exact same thing you said regarding people forgetting halfs.

And what do you say?

14 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

From your own source:

Today, the phrase used in its entirety generally describes a person whose knowledge, while covering a number of areas, is superficial in all of them.

Which litterally translates to "yeah, but like, I'm saying it right, as it is usually said nowadays, and you are saying it wrong!"

Aka "that's not the meaning of the expression you used, and your point is now irrelevant to the matter!"

Aka Arguing semantics.

 

 

[DatDarkOne]

Core 4? Who are they and in what regards?  More importantly are they generally accept by everyone to be such?  Never heard of this term before in regards to Warframe.  Just curious where it came from. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added info

[tnccs215]

7 minutes ago, Thebel said:

Solo missions don't matter because no one is going to be there to criticize whatever frame you use. Unlike a squad where people can prefer you use x frame over y frame for mission z.

Thank you for actually giving me a counter argument, with an actual justification, instead of just saying a thing and act as if it was obvious.

That does make some sense, I wont deny it -- but even if it is less important, we cannot simply dismiss the relevance of solo missions. Truth is, what stands above all is if people have fun playing a frame-- and many people like to play solo. With that in mind, we have to give some credits for frames that can hold themselves longuer in solo out of their versatility, and some that can't for whatever reason. 

For example, Oberon's overall versatility makes him an acceptable solo frame, however frames like Banshee will fall flat on that category.-- and we cannot simply dismiss such results, because, truth is, there are several Banshee users that would love to solo survivals with her, but due to her specific set, simply cant.

[Thebel]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Thank you for actually giving me a counter argument, with an actual justification, instead of just saying a thing and act as if it was obvious.

That does make some sense, I wont deny it -- but even if it is less important, we cannot simply dismiss the relevance of solo missions. Truth is, what stands above all is if people have fun playing a frame-- and many people like to play solo. With that in mind, we have to give some credits for frames that can hold themselves longuer in solo out of their versatility, and some that can't for whatever reason. 

For example, Oberon's overall versatility makes him an acceptable solo frame, however frames like Banshee will fall flat on that category.-- and we cannot simply dismiss such results, because, truth is, there are several Banshee users that would love to solo survivals with her, but due to her specific set, simply cant.

Again talking about solo is pointless because no one will care what you use and most if not all frames will work fine for solo missions with the right build. Banshee can do survivals just fine with a silence build to provide cc and reduce the odds of her being hit. Obviously a well round frame like Oberon would be better but then even better than that is just an invisible frame. But the point still stands no one cares what you do solo because that has no bearing on a squad. In a squad is where you have meta frames and build come into play. And so say his idea of a core 4 doesn't matter? That's not entirely true when there is an obvious meta in the game, when you go to squad recruiting, there is basically a common list of frames needed/ wanted with certain missions. If you looked at most of them I'm pretty sure you'll see at least, Trin, Frost, and Nova come up quite often. Why? Because they are the best at what they do, they fill a role so well that most of the time other frames can't compete.

I understand the OP wants to say that Oberon is a good frame, and he's a good frame for him but in the meta, he isn't a good frame, hence why you don't have squads looking for him. We aren't saying he can't use Oberon, but we do want him to acknowledge that in this current meta Oberon is not considered good. Obviously the meta changes every time things do, so maybe one day he could be good in the meta, but currently he isn't.