Riven Slots Post-19.3.2 Feedback

[Volinus7]

8 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

 

I have to inform you that his goal is plat stacking and high value riven is a good tool for that. He will pop up in every riven threads that might devalue it and say that ultra hard to find riven is good high value is good. Your sense and his sense are different story, don't waste so much time argue with him.

[Siekier]

I feels like 99,9% of the time they don't listen. Or maybe they do, but simply don't care.

 

Countless times I've seen suggestions on how to solve various problems. Those were good suggestions, very reasonable.

None of those were implemented.

And now we same the very same thing happening with Riven mods - it's clearly flawed, there are many reasonable suggestions from players, but none of them are probably even considered. Instead we get BS story about the 15 Riven limit only to see a option of buying mod slots (mod slots!) for platinum.

 

I like Warframe, I really do. But I find myself more and more disappointed with the devteam's actions.

At some point many people will say "screw it, I had enough of this"

 

 

[Xzorn]

18 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

-snip-

 

Kuva costs and Sorties are not the same thing (which btw I do get useless loot 95% of the time) They both preserve the value of the mods however Sorties prevent you from engaging in the system in the first place by denying the player Riven mods while the Kuva costs simply require more effort from the player to continue rolling. A more forgiving acquisition of Riven mods from Sorties results in more interacting with the Riven system which is what we need.

Having a set Kuva costs results in a cost that is either realistically achievable or not. If it's achievable then you will always use that single mod and never require a new one. If it's not achievable then having the set costs is meaningless.

Saying you're somehow harming progress is what's nonsense. You can't actually harm progression when dealing with probabilities. One failed roll simply increases the probability of your next being a success. You can claim anything you want but math says your wrong.

The Riven system half works for it's purpose. You just have to leave the shallow end of the pool and not live-by-the-tonkor. Paracysts now has the best TTK on a lvl 140 Napalm of all other guns at 3 seconds. Good luck with Tonkor / Simulor on that speed. Paracyst serves a very strong purpose now which is what they wanted.

 

18 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

I have to inform you that his goal is plat stacking and high value riven is a good tool for that. He will pop up in every riven threads that might devalue it and say that ultra hard to find riven is good high value is good. Your sense and his sense are different story, don't waste so much time argue with him.

 

My interest is in long lasting play value which most often results in plat due to no other viable progression options. Riven mods and Focus are the only long term progression options and since I'm about 100 days from maxing the entire Focus system. I kinda want Riven to last a while despite a bunch of impatient complaining.

Some of us are patient and appreciate a system built to last more than a month.

Considering the Riven system is only 1 month old. It's quite obvious what other players want.  Quick and Easy.

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Please stop focusing on "storage" as DE never mentioned that.
They mentioned "Database impact" which is a much broader category.

Which also relates to storage. Whether it's space taken taken up, or how that space is accessed, it's still storage. This is semantics and irrelevant to the point.

[Mudfam]

5 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 You can't actually harm progression when dealing with probabilities. One failed roll simply increases the probability of your next being a success. You can claim anything you want but math says your wrong.

Math..? Where ever did you pick up such an utterly absurd notion from? I actually know more about maths and probability then you likely realise is even possible, but simple logic and common sense is all you need to know with absolute certainty that the odds are always exactly the same, it absolutely doesn't matter how many times you've tried before, a 0.01% chance is a 0.01% on your first attempt as it is on your millionth attempt.

And yes, you are very, very, very obviously harming progression by increasing your cost with every roll, and hence effectively decreasing the chance with each attempt. More kuva farmed for every roll with the same abysmal chance. It's like having to buy ever more tickets for just the same one chance every time you play the lottery. Worse still, your overcycled riven mod becomes worthless, and you actually have less than you started with, you have nothing. Correction, you invest hours upon hours and probably platinum so that you can finally dissolve it all into a smidge of endo.

[Tizodd]

13 hours ago, Wolfglaive said:

They have no real obligation to tell us anything...

It's this thinking that will keep allowing consumers/customers/gamers to be screwed over by companies.  We pay [DE]'s bills.  We put food in their stomachs.  They owe us everything.  But as long as we feel they don't owe us anything, we'll continue being the crying little victims.  Yes they make a good product, but without us logging in, buying plat and prime access, [DE] would be bankrupt.  We can cry and complain all we want, but until we cry and complain with our wallets, [DE] can drink our tears all the way to the bank.

It's similar to gamers complaining about release day DLC, real money cash shops in-game, and always-online DRM.  We complain, but people inevitably buy the product.  Actions speak louder than words.  The way to get a company to listen, is by talking with your wallet.

TL:DR - [DE] is a company.  Companies exist to make a profit.  Companies listen to consumer complaints when it affects the bottom line.  When people stop buying Prime Access, Platinum, and logging into the game...[DE] will listen.  Until then, they will do whatever results in the most profit.

[P0Pz]

20 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Math..? Where ever did you pick up such an utterly absurd notion from? I actually know more about maths and probability then you likely realise is even possible, but simple logic and common sense is all you need to know with absolute certainty that the odds are always exactly the same, it absolutely doesn't matter how many times you've tried before, a 0.01% chance is a 0.01% on your first attempt as it is on your millionth attempt.

And yes, you are very, very, very obviously harming progression by increasing your cost with every roll, and hence effectively decreasing the chance with each attempt. More kuva farmed for every roll with the same abysmal chance. It's like having to buy ever more tickets for just the same one chance every time you play the lottery. Worse still, your overcycled riven mod becomes worthless, and you actually have less than you started with, you have nothing. Correction, you invest hours upon hours and probably platinum so that you can finally dissolve it all into a smidge of endo.

Buddy your post remember me to "point-even-point" (BEP). 

"The break-even point (BEP) in economics,business, and specifically cost accounting, is the point at which total cost and total revenue are equal: there is no net loss or gain, and one has "broken even." A profit or a loss has not been made, although opportunity costs have been "paid", and capital has received the risk-adjusted, expected return. In short, all costs that needs to be paid are paid by the firm but the profit is equal to 0." (Source Wiki, copy-paste bc english is not my natural language)

- soo why not give Riven a Break-Point like saying, after 5 negative stats roll you are guarnteed to get positive stats at the first stat, even if you keep on rolling the first stat can only stay at +% ?! At your 10th roll your second stat hits the "break-point" and stays positive +%, even if you keep on rolling. And so on... uh ...that not a bad idea at all...

Hmm thanks a lot for this back-flash !! 😉

Edited December 14, 2016 by P0Pz

[Xzorn]

46 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Math..? Where ever did you pick up such an utterly absurd notion from? I actually know more about maths and probability then you likely realise is even possible, but simple logic and common sense is all you need to know with absolute certainty that the odds are always exactly the same, it absolutely doesn't matter how many times you've tried before, a 0.01% chance is a 0.01% on your first attempt as it is on your millionth attempt.

 

You obviously don't know more about probabilities or you wouldn't have said this.

The chance of a success does not improve but the probability of a success improves with each trial.

To take your example of 0.01%. 25 attempts results in a 0.25% probability of at least one success, 50 attempts is 0.5% of at least one success and 100 attempts is 1% probability of at least one success. One could easily conclude that the more you try the better probability you have of getting what you want.

Increasing Kuva costs increases your Time to reroll. It does nothing to you chances and the purpose is very much so you will  junk the mod. Hence my statement that Riven mods need better acquisition from Sorties so more players can engage in the system more frequently.

Having a set Kuva cost simply makes your projected needs a set avg number of trials to attain or does nothing because the costs is still unreasonably high. It's actually because of probabilities that the Kuva cost increases forever.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Xzorn

[Coaa]

I do have to say, they have done lots of things in the time I've started playing this game that I was ok with when it came to platinum and what not. I was absolutely shocked when I saw they want plat for more slots for these things though. This scares me for the future of the game if all new things going forward are going to suddenly cost more money just to get more of something.

They already have tons of things you need to spend money on, why keep adding more. Riven mods in general cost obnoxious amounts of money to get good ones. Like...staggering amounts of money in plat for a "perfect rolled" one. Some dude is selling a perfect Vectis riven for 7000 plat.....that's almost $300 for a single virtual item. DE isn't stupid and knew that these things would sell for lots. They are already making absurd amounts of money off these things, why nickle and dime us more.

I've seen a lot of new mods and items come in the years and I've never seen anything that is still obtainable at this current time sell for even close to how much these things are going for.

[P0Pz]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

You obviously don't know more about probabilities or you wouldn't have said this.

The chance of a success does not improve but the probability of a success improves with each trial.

To take your example of 0.01%. 25 attempts results in a 22.2% probability of at least one success, 50 attempts is 39.5% of at least one success and 100 attempts is 63.4% probability of at least one success. One could easily conclude that the more you try the better probability you have of getting what you want.

Increasing Kuva costs increases your Time to reroll. It does nothing to you chances and the purpose is very much so you will  junk the mod. Hence my statement that Riven mods need better acquisition from Sorties so more players can engage in the system more frequently.

Having a set Kuva cost simply makes your projected needs a set avg number of trials to attain or does nothing because the costs is still unreasonably high. It's actually because of probabilities that the Kuva cost increases forever.

There are 2 pair of shoes.

A. That adds your roll progress chance 0.01% + 0.01% = 0.02% second roll

0.2% = 10 rolling ~ 0.4% = 20 rolling etc

B. You always start at the same 0.01% which adds nothing and leave you always on the same chance. Which means you could run it for ever.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by P0Pz

[Mudfam]

9 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

To take your example of 0.01%. 25 attempts results in a 22.2% probability of at least one success, 50 attempts is 39.5% of at least one success and 100 attempts is 63.4% probability of at least one success. One could easily conclude that the more you try the better probability you have of getting what you want.

You are decidedly confused about what that actually means. More attempts means more chances overall, it does not in any way whatsoever represent increasing odds, or any form of progress. The odds remain the same, previous attempts are completely irrelevant. You gain nothing by failing.

 

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Increasing Kuva costs increases your Time to reroll. It does nothing to you chances

Increased cost to reroll = less chances per kuva farmed. Nuff said. I really shouldn't have to explain something this simple and obvious.

Regardless of these pointless arguments about the fundamental qualities of reality as we know it, my original point still stands: we are investing into making our investment suffer. That is undisputably how it works and it is fundamentally WRONG from every possible perspective.

[Coaa]

Ugh you guys just killed this game completely for me trying to get my other friends to play it. They started the game and loved it. Then they hit the first wall....they wanted to toy with other frames and weapons but hit the slot cap. I talked them through selling the crappy guns and frame they didn't like, helped them farm some other and they were fine for awhile again. Once they cleared a lot of the star chart and had tons of mats/bps/parts and started to build though it kept biting at them. A few of them bought plat, others flat out quit while others learned to farm and sell.

None of the guys play anymore though. Their biggest gripe was that the game was very fun, but every bit of fun seems hindered by the need to suddenly buy slots for EVERYTHING. If I tried to talk them back into this game and get them to farm some stuff to sell for plat for more slots, then told them even more slot items are in the game now that are even more expensive....there is no way.

I do not get this decision at all. These stupid mods are already selling for 1000s upon 1000s of plat. DE is rolling in the dough right now, yet they decide to bleed the stone dry with this one. I'm kind of disgusted with it myself.

People saying they need to pay for servers for the space for these mods....I point you to the trade section of these forums where you can find posts such as GAWD TIER VECTIS RIVEN 10249812098k DPS!!! where they are asking for 7000 plat. Or another GOD TIER Synoid RIVEN!! where they are asking for 6000 plat. That is 300-400$ respectively for a single mod. DE is laughing to the bank with this idea. No other thing they have released before that is currently in the game still has sold even close to what these things are. Yes I get primed chamber because it's exclusive but these are still obtainable and selling for hundreds of dollars.

[Xzorn]

13 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

There are 2 pair of shoes.

A. That adds your roll progress chance 0.01% + 0.01% = 0.02% second roll

0.2% = 10 rolling ~ 0.4% = 20 rolling etc

B. You always start at the same 0.01% which adds nothing and leave you always on the same chance. Which means you could run it for ever.

 

10 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

You are decidedly confused about what that actually means. More attempts means more chances overall, it does not in any way whatsoever represent increasing odds, or any form of progress. The odds remain the same, previous attempts are completely irrelevant. You gain nothing by failing.

Increased cost to reroll = less chances per kuva farmed. Nuff said. I really shouldn't have to explain something this simple and obvious.

Regardless of these pointless arguments about the fundamental qualities of reality as we know it, my original point still stands: we are investing into making our investment suffer. That is undisputably how it works and it is fundamentally WRONG from every possible perspective.

 

If I'm looking to get an item with a 5% drop rate. I have a projected probability of getting one or more results with 50 attempts at 92.3%.

I could get that result before 50 attempts or I could never get it but there's a 92.3% probability I get it by the 50th attempt. Each time I fail and get closer to that 50th attempt I get closer to my projected result. Hence progress.

 

And no you're argument doesn't stand. It topples over like any of the other players who try to use the phrase RNG like some sorta evil voodoo hex without knowing what they're actually talking about. I have a stupid amount of plat I could spend on the Riven system but I haven't spent a single piece because I want play progression. I'm not in a hurry to stand around with nothing to do but stack plat again like it's a high score.

[P0Pz]

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

 

If I'm looking to get an item with a 5% drop rate. I have a projected probability of getting one or more results with 50 attempts at 92.3%.

I could get that result before 50 attempts or I could never get it but there's a 92.3% probability I get it by the 50th attempt. Each time I fail and get closer to that 50th attempt I get closer to my projected result. Hence progress...

Not exactly buddy.

You still do not know if your item "drop rate" is added to your next roll/kill or if it starts again at 5% which means you have always only 5% success or 95% failrate at each try. If added then at 10th try it is 50% success/fail rate.

At this point would hit your "Break even point". If your 11th try won't hit all stats possitive you lost your 50% winrate. You invested more risc % then actualy it is worth. Since WE HAVE NO BREAK POINT in the riven RNG and there are not only 1 stat that needs to be watched at...you can pretty much say "its a not rewarding system inside a rewarding system". This is a fail within.

Edited December 14, 2016 by P0Pz

[kuchn]

1 hour ago, Tizodd said:

It's this thinking that will keep allowing consumers/customers/gamers to be screwed over by companies.  We pay [DE]'s bills.  We put food in their stomachs.  They owe us everything.  But as long as we feel they don't owe us anything, we'll continue being the crying little victims.  Yes they make a good product, but without us logging in, buying plat and prime access, [DE] would be bankrupt.  We can cry and complain all we want, but until we cry and complain with our wallets, [DE] can drink our tears all the way to the bank.

It's similar to gamers complaining about release day DLC, real money cash shops in-game, and always-online DRM.  We complain, but people inevitably buy the product.  Actions speak louder than words.  The way to get a company to listen, is by talking with your wallet.

TL:DR - [DE] is a company.  Companies exist to make a profit.  Companies listen to consumer complaints when it affects the bottom line.  When people stop buying Prime Access, Platinum, and logging into the game...[DE] will listen.  Until then, they will do whatever results in the most profit.

ty tizodd.... i was just about to write the exact same thing

all those comments that we should be thankful/grateful etc... u watch devstreams? u see the clothes they wear?... well guess who paid them
 

Edited December 14, 2016 by kuchn

[White_Matter]

I highly doubt they are listening. They are only doing what is best(most profitable) for them, and while most of the suggestions coming from us are infintely better than theirs gameplay-wise, they are not as profitable.

I think it is a part of their strategy to make the game a little frustrating to make you spend plat. But I also feel like it is partially because none of the developers or designers play the game as much as we do, so their understanding of the game is not as crisp as ours. So they can't grasp the frustration of not getting anything after hours of grinding in a game that is solely built around grinding.

 

TL;DR All DE cares about is money. Or lets say mostly about money maybe not all. But with that kind of mindset, it will not be possible to please the player base and like every greed driven concept it will collapse at some point.

Edited December 14, 2016 by White_Matter

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

Not exactly buddy.

You still do not know if your item "drop rate" is added to your next roll/kill or if it starts again at 5% which means you have always only 5% success or 95% failrate at each try. If added then at 10th try it is 50% success/fail rate.

At this point would your "Break even point" hit. If your 11th try won't hit all stats possitive you lost your 50% winrate. You invested more risc % then actualy it is worth. Since WE HAVE NO BREAK POINT in the riven RNG and there are not only 1 stat that needs to be watched at...you can pretty much say "its a not rewarding system inside a rewarding system". This is a fail within.

 

I know it's not added. It's still progression each time you attempt.

You set parameters to what you would consider a success, consider all other results failures and you can project the average required attempts to yield one or more results. Each time you fail a trial you get closer to your projected result and therefor closer to a success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_trial

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

You could very well never yield a success but there comes a point when it's more likely to get hit by lightning playing Warframe with Free Bird is playing in the background at the moment a kid breaks your window with a red painted rock tied to a clown shoe that stepped in a dog turd.

[45neo]

14 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

Regarding Riven Mods, the largest point of contention since the release of TWW,

Are Developers even listening to us?

We've also asked for within the last month:

• Nitain to be removed from Sorties
• Forma to be removed from Sorties
• Exilus adapters to be removed from Sorties
• Originally we asked them not to update the Sortie drop table in the first place because most people hated it, but they updated it anyways
• That's all I can remember right now

And yet, with the latest Hotfix, 19.3.2, we get this:

If not then, at the very least, I'd like to be told that these ideas are not being considered.

I am not DE but I can tell you that reverting the sortie reward changes they just made is something they won't consider for a while, 

Also a good portion of the forum community did in fact ask for change, sure maybe not in this manner but they got change. Also I think you have not stopped to consider the players that are not on the forums where the majority are not veterans who have everything (even if they have a lot/most things) who would still appreciate getting nitain, exilus adapters or even forma because some people have not played enough/ are unable to play enough to get hundreds.

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Each time I fail and get closer to that 50th attempt I get closer to my projected result. Hence progress.

Are you even serious? Are you just trolling or do you actually believe this?

 

45 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I know it's not added. It's still progression each time you attempt.

Well, all I can say is have fun in make believe world. Your imagination is your only limit, I guess.

[P0Pz]

37 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I know it's not added. It's still progression each time you attempt.

You set parameters to what you would consider a success, consider all other results failures and you can project the average required attempts to yield one or more results. Each time you fail a trial you get closer to your projected result and therefor closer to a success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_trial

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

You could very well never yield a success but there comes a point when it's more likely to get hit by lightning playing Warframe with Free Bird is playing in the background at the moment a kid breaks your window with a red painted rock tied to a clown shoe that stepped in a dog turd.

Okay... we r closer to agree each others now ;)

Look...we are playing a Game. This game, no matter what it trys to simulate is a grind game. Grinding includes some sort of RNG always, no way arround it is part of the game. Grinding is the process of progress to get your 'hero/unit" in a higher tier. To motivate a person to grind and reach a higher tier, grind rewards you afterwards. Sometimes fast sometimes in a long turn. This is the rewarding. 

In our case, we grind for items. Each item got or is in a droplist/table, which is the RNG. The more items in a list the lower the chance that you might get that 1 item you are searching.

There can be a droptable with 100 items in. Which must not say 100 items but 100 "items names". Some "item names" can apear in that list 10 times other 5 times and a special one 1 time only. Thats the RNG for 1 item.

NOW Riven...

Riven seems to be 1 item in the droptable to get - correct.

The RNG inside this 1 item which shows you 4 stats is not 1 !! There are 4 RNGs running AT THE SAME TIME.

Even if you got 1 positive...next roll, it can be negative again. This counts for 4 stats straight.

Which means you ARE WITH HIGH RATE gampling for ever with no stats to work on.

This status, is why it is a "fail rewarding".

A reward gives you after a effort something in return (1 RNG). Riven fail this point. 

Why?

Riven Mods have no BeP..

If they had lets say at 5th roll a break-point, it would leave stat nr1 positive. No matter how often a player keeps on to roll. 

If the next Break-Point, would be at 10th roll, the 2nd stat stays positive no matter how often a player keeps in to roll.... ect 20th roll later the player get the 4th and last Break- point which lets all stats stay postive +%. Not included how high the +% might be and the player still wants to roll to get higher nummbers...

But...he was rewarded the effort. All the grind is not unlimited/sensless. He gets progress within his item. No backstabbing.

THIS is what Rivens system is missing. A BREAK POINT.

Without it, it is a hardcore gambling system.

Ever played Rappelz? Play it 1 year (i did 15 years) there you learn EVERYTHING about droptables/rates/chances. It is the grandfather of all grindfest games. No other game will beat it at that area.

[Tizodd]

2 hours ago, Coaa said:

...Some dude is selling a perfect Vectis riven for 7000 plat.....that's almost $300 for a single virtual item. DE isn't stupid and knew that these things would sell for lots. They are already making absurd amounts of money off these things, why nickle and dime us more...

This guy/girl gets it^.

We can complain all we want but as long as we're spending money, why should [DE] care?  They're going to continue to do whatever it takes to benefit their bottom line and in all honesty...can you blame them?  Don't be fooled by the "family" atmosphere they convey...[DE] is a company and their ultimate goal is to turn a profit.

[xRufus7x]

14 hours ago, Brasten said:

Which is why I point to "other factors" in pricing the weapon swap costs. These don't have to be low costs. I'd point to Pedestal Prime as to where some of those price and resource points could end up being placed.

Eventually we will have near to 500+ weapons in the game (if we stay on track to reach MR30 at 2,250,000 mastery points). Many of which will not share a Name.

Allowing weapons to be "Name" changed in a costly way to a different weapon would help with this. It would also allow DE to be more specific about the Weapon. Instead of Braton covering (MK-1, Prime, Vandal, and base) we could get as detailed a "MK-1 Braton Riven". This would also give DE room give weapons with Family names different Disposition.  

Adjusting the "Weapon" should come with variable cost multipliers or even stages:

• Disposition, changing Disposition (especially to Faint) has a cost
• Change outside of a "Name" Family, greatly increase the cost
• Change to a different Category (semi-auto, burst, continuous, shotgun, launch, etc), increase the cost
• Change to a different slot (Primary, Secondary, Melee), increase in cost

This also gives room for players to shift with/against the meta over time. This could includes changes to weaker weapons that suddenly make them End Game Viable with a Riven specifically tailored (going to giving players some degree of control over what gets generated).

Part of the point of Resources is an abstraction of "Play time put into the game". This is banked as various different things against future use. The old pre Mods2.0 system essentially allowed players to "Play the game" until they stumbled across a better mod for what they were doing. Riven mods do not have this slower paced, use it as you find/play to it feel. They require custom play (Kuva collection, and 1/day limited Sortie RNG) to get. It's not a "naturally" occurring process of just playing the game.

"Pretty sure we would just end up with thousands of Synoid Symulor and Tonkor rivens then."

I basically ignore this argument as a moot point. This is already happening as people begin to hit the limited Riven space, and Endo any Riven that doesn't align with a Top Tier weapon. It's just a slower process, and also locks people into those weapons with no real incentive or option to try Off-Meta finds... for example a Mag and Miter with Riven.

Given the option to switch out to Non-meta choices, with only a "Play the game some more" penalty in resources and time (not fighting to the death with RNGesus) to shift back if they didn't like it, you get much closer to a system that encourages diversity and exploration of options.

It would have to be some hella steap pricing. cause I am sitting on like 40 Pedistal Primes although it could be an interesting way to introduce some much needed resource sinks.

[Mudfam]

9 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

[DE] is a company and their ultimate goal is to turn a profit.

Yes. Personally I'm totally cool with that, I wouldn't mind paying for riven slots at all, I pay my plat I get my slots, it's a straight deal. Plat is a premium currency, but it can also be traded with players. Trading is just part of the game, everyone can do it. On the other hand I don't buy this crap about server capacity for one second, this is not a realistic technical limitation at all. Just no way, it stinks.

What DE also have to care about is the player experience. There our opinion matters. DE can tell us what we have to pay for or not, but they can't tell us what's fun and feels rewarding. With this riven system they've created something extremely ugly which has and will continue to turn players away.

[P0Pz]

Read my post above. I think DE tells the truth... there is a lot happening just for 1 riven.... a lot...

[NeonNemesis]

Looking back at DE's poor decisions since some time ago and the increased grind, I can't help but to think that the chinese meat guys are pushing them to make more money. Since that time till now DE's modus operandi started to change and they now look like the corpus in their search for the next profit.

It might work at short term, but after a while people will start to get sick of it and will move on.