HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[k05h]

32 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

And yet again, this isn't about "I need it now!", how many more times does that need to be explained?

It is actually quite shocking that people do not read at least the first two or three posts. The reasons why we are still "stomping our feet":

• gating of future research
• enforcing anti-social behaviour for larger clans
  - kick players that dare to play for fun
  - kick players that dare to play only occasionally because of real life
  - kick players that are unwilling to do compulsury labour
  - making plat entry fees a real thing
• ignore solo or very small clans (less than 5)
• being unreasonable by making research cost for one item 12.8 times of what all other reserch items need
• creating a precendent that will lead to other insane research costs
  - anyone interested in 5000 nitain for the next ghost clan research
  - or 5000 neural sensors for the next ghost clan research
  - or 2500 tellurium for the next ghost clan research

 

If time-gating was the issue for DE then they could research just take one week to complete. If you want people to do more for it make the actual build cost from the Hema bp 1000 mutagen samples, 30 nintain, 50 neurodes and 100 neural sensors.

For those that are interested in Warframe's ressource creep and history here is a very good article: http://www.tennoclocknews.com/analysis-of-resource-costs/

 

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by k05h
make corrections

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, HIGHDAMAGE said:

DE assign the rules not me

may i ask why those 31 players dont raise in nr?

Maybe they don't want to invite another 69 random people just to get back to the same resource cost per player that they had at 30?

The artificial pressures that clan tier resource multipliers introduce haven't really mattered until now, because clan costs were largely trivial.

If DE intend to make them have more impact, then they should give more consideration to the social effects of that change before introducing it.

If clans stop being somewhere that friends can gather to play together, and start becoming sweatshops, then something is not right with the game.

[Littlerift]

Out of curiosity, how many Mutagen Samples per person would people consider acceptable? Perhaps a solution would be renovate the clan system (which is long overdue anyway) so that costs scale directly with the number of people within a clan, rather than scale in a discrete manner.

[HIGHDAMAGE]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Maybe they don't want to invite another 69 random people just to get back to the same resource cost per player that they had at 30?

those 31 must be hardcore then 

The artificial pressures that clan tier resource multipliers introduce haven't really mattered until now, because clan costs were largely trivial.

If DE intend to make them have more impact, then they should give more consideration to the social effects of that change before introducing it.

If clans stop being somewhere that friends can gather to play together, and start becoming sweatshops, then something is not right with the game.

indeed

 

[Phantom-6]

Just now, Littlerift said:

Out of curiosity, how many Mutagen Samples per person would people consider acceptable? Perhaps a solution would be renovate the clan system (which is long overdue anyway) so that costs scale directly with the number of people within a clan, rather than scale in a discrete manner.

500 is fine.

[Littlerift]

Just now, Phantom-6 said:

500 is fine.

 

So the issue, in your view, is the way the cost scales with Clan type rather than precisely with the number of members?

I feel much the same, btw, that 500 Mutagen per person in fine but the issue is caused by Clan sizes and cost scaling being discrete rather than linear.

[Tyrian3k]

3 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

Out of curiosity, how many Mutagen Samples per person would people consider acceptable? Perhaps a solution would be renovate the clan system (which is long overdue anyway) so that costs scale directly with the number of people within a clan, rather than scale in a discrete manner.

Instead of making it 500 per theoretical player, they could have made it 500 per actual player.

[Littlerift]

Just now, Tyrian3k said:

Instead of making it 500 per theoretical player, they could have made it 500 per actual player.

 

Well they couldn't have done that under the current system, but I would support a change to the clan system so that costs directly scale per player.

[ChuckMaverick]

If we consider just the Hema in isolation, as a stretch goal and not typical of all future research/manufacturing, then 500 mutagen samples is not beyond the reasonable reach of most players.

A problem with setting the costs based on actual players in a clan is that it's easy to 'game' that system.

[Phantom-6]

Just now, Littlerift said:

 

Well they couldn't have done that under the current system, but I would support a change to the clan system so that costs directly scale per player.

Definitely would've been difficult under the current system.  Costs that scale to the precise number of players in the clan would be nice however, the player gap between the sizes is more the issue.  You've got 350 people in your clan that are active and 500 that are inactive you can't really kick those fifty people just to fit into that nice lower category, well you can, but you shouldn't.  Since you're not going to kick those fifty, what use is it to kick the other 500 until you've gotten another 150 active players to fill the void?  This is the problem that people are having.  Honestly they should reduce the maximum size for clans, how many of those 999 potential clan mates are you actually going to play with regularly?  That and the "I need it now" mentality.  Even if everyone says its not it is about that.  There's nothing that's going to hurt you if you don't get it for a month.  Run a couple of Derelicts when you can, or when your bored, eventually you'll get it. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

DE is probably not reading 22 pages into this, but I'll add my experience:

I have my own clan that I specifically created since I didn't want my son who is younger than the average player in a clan where I couldn't control the chat/membership etc.  Additionally, he loves being able to put his own decorations down etc.  So we are a 2 person clan that often has a few guest members when I meet fellow Tenno who have decided to leave their clan, and need a temporary home - assuming I have spoken to them in person and vetted them and know they will be respectful of the fact that the sole purpose of the clan is to ensure suitability for  younger-than-17 eyeballs.

 

So where I am going with this?  Well my research costs are 5000. That is NOT 500 mutagen samples per person in the clan - its 2500 since there are 2 people in my clan.  And realistically it 1 Person because he is in school.  He enjoys running around the game in quick missions and spending time in simulacrum.  He does not enjoy boring-as-hell ODS/ODDD missions staying for hours.  which leaves the Research to me - so that's 5000 per person.

 Since I created this account SOLEY for the purpose of creating a dojo for him, I have run it with drop-chance and drop-rate boosters almost continuously since account creation.  I completed all the research save a few colors solo. So this was almost a pure FARMING account with 44days of grinding into it.  How much mutagen does it have? 3,500.

So even if the drop rate was 1ms per minute in Derelict (which its not), its ANOTHER 25 hours of doing nothing but derelict.

I'd say eff-it and not research it at all, but what happens when Hema is pre-req for the next weapon (that might take additional samples).  I'd prefer to take that 25 hours to Destiny.

At the moment, I'm just dumping prime parts for plat and going to buy it (but not with any real money purchased plat). 

All this I see about "well what about the clans that already put in the effort blah blah" - what about the people that bought nehza the day before you moved her to Dojo?  What about the people that grinded the sorties for sortie weapons and now they are moved to guaranteed drop invasions?  Who cares if they put in the effort  - the bigger question is what about all the new players that have yet to come to the game.  Look to the future, not the past DE. 

Change the drop tables, change the resource requirements, scale the research based of clan membership count not capacity... who cares - just fix it. Suck up your mistake, learn and move.

 

[Littlerift]

2 minutes ago, Phantom-6 said:

Definitely would've been difficult under the current system.  Costs that scale to the precise number of players in the clan would be nice however, the player gap between the sizes is more the issue.  You've got 350 people in your clan that are active and 500 that are inactive you can't really kick those fifty people just to fit into that nice lower category, well you can, but you shouldn't.  Since you're not going to kick those fifty, what use is it to kick the other 500 until you've gotten another 150 active players to fill the void?  This is the problem that people are having.  Honestly they should reduce the maximum size for clans, how many of those 999 potential clan mates are you actually going to play with regularly?  That and the "I need it now" mentality.  Even if everyone says its not it is about that.  There's nothing that's going to hurt you if you don't get it for a month.  Run a couple of Derelicts when you can, or when your bored, eventually you'll get it. 

 

I quite agree with everything you say, and should mention that I'm in a clan with only 3 people (and I'm the only one currently playing).

Edited January 19, 2017 by Littlerift

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

13 minutes ago, Littlerift said:

 

Well they couldn't have done that under the current system, but I would support a change to the clan system so that costs directly scale per player.

They certainly could - just move the MSample cost to manufacturing the item for the players foundry rather than in the Dojo.  500 per person instantly.

 

[Littlerift]

Just now, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

They certainly could - just move the MSample cost to manufacturing the item for the players foundry rather than in the Dojo.  500 per person instantly.

 

But if you do that and maintain the same cost scaling then you're going to require 25 Mutagen Masses, 250,000 Salvage, or 25,000 Circuit Boards per person.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

At the moment, I'm just dumping prime parts for plat and going to buy it (but not with any real money purchased plat).

if you do this you're playing their game. if you don't want to "honor" this "mistake": hold out.

edit: any tadeable plat was purchased at some point. throwing it at the market is taking it out of circulation until someone else puchases it. you still support this cash grabby design decision mistake.

also: repeatedly reading arguments like "it's supposed to be an achievement" and "farming the same tileset for days is fun" is rather bewildering, to put it mildly.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 minute ago, Littlerift said:

 

But if you do that and maintain the same cost scaling then you're going to require 25 Mutagen Masses, 250,000 Salvage, or 25,000 Circuit Boards per person.

it can still be 500 MS in the dojo or some other number.  And even if it did have your numbers, whats the problem? Salvage and Circuits don't have the problem - they are actually obtainable.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

if you do this you're playing their game. if you don't want to "honor" this "mistake": hold out.

 

On the other hand, by playing I'm increasing their support costs and not contributing $$.  But your point is valid and perhaps the solution.

[ChuckMaverick]

If DE were to learn just one lesson from this issue, I'd like it to be...

If you're planning to make a significant change to the status quo in Warframe, get feedback from the players first.

DE like the quote from the MTG creator about "players are good at finding problems, but not coming up with solutions".

Well, let us find the problems for you before you introduce them into the game.

[Naskoni]

27 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If DE were to learn just one lesson from this issue, I'd like it to be...

If you're planning to make a significant change to the status quo in Warframe, get feedback from the players first.

DE like the quote from the MTG creator about "players are good at finding problems, but not coming up with solutions".

Well, let us find the problems for you before you introduce them into the game.

"Third, future development depends on players picking and choosing when they’d rather spend platinum and when they’d rather craft."

Absolutely nothing about the Hema is new, simply all previous attempts have failed to incite players to buy stuff directly with plat, rather than craft it. I guess DE simply gave up on trying to find an elegant solution to the problem and simply decided to jack up the costs so much that people simply had no real choice anymore. That and previous comments how they intend to continue doing so and specifically regarding clantech - it's simply more "efficient" for reasons listed probably 100 times already. Given their podcast immediately after the last dev stream its working as Rebecca was so proud to announce that now as many Hemas were bought as were crafted. It's on purpose and that's why it's staying. It has absolutely nothing to do with "honouring" anybody nor is it about promoting more clan cooperation. It's simply about making more plat out of new content and especially about doing so with people that have played for far too long and have too many resources.

[Flirk2]

I'm in awe. Some people are still defending the Hema insanity without even reading what people who oppose those costs say.

''Nobody knows were mutagen samples drop'' indeed...

The ''30k cryotic is a lot worse'' argument is just beyond good an evil. Sure, let's compare 300 drops with 100% from every rotation on excavations everywhere with 5000 random chance drops in Derelict where there is nothing else to get but mutagen samples and cats to scan anymore. (No one in their right mind will try and get all the corrupted mods from ODS)

Then there are people who think 500 mutagen samples per person would be alright.

Even if it really was 500 mutagen samples per person it would still be an unreasonable amount. Why? Because with no boosters they drop 1 sample per minute with Nekros in Derelict, for Lotus's sake! It's 500 minutes of playing the most boring way there is after Prism was nerfed. 8.3 solid hours of farming in the game where average total play time is about 70 hours (https://steamspy.com/app/230410)? For one weapon out of hundreds? Are you serious?

Synapse is 65 mutagen samples for a ghost clan. It was the most expensive thing in the lab and was added more then 3 years ago. Hema should be 70 max.

 

Or let's recalculate all the other research costs with the same equation that was used for Hema (based on the assumption that every clan if full to the brim with farmers on boosters) and make everyone redo all research with new costs. That would be fun and fair, right. Community effort and all that...

Edited January 19, 2017 by Flirk2

[k05h]

25 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

Given their podcast immediately after the last dev stream its working as Rebecca was so proud to announce that now as many Hemas were bought as were crafted. It's on purpose and that's why it's staying. It has absolutely nothing to do with "honouring" anybody nor is it about promoting more clan cooperation. It's simply about making more plat out of new content and especially about doing so with people that have played for far too long and have too many resources.

That sentence about how well Hema sells for plat made me flinch. There was also a line in the Dev stream where Rebecca said if you want the Hema for free you have to do some grind. 

I bought into 5 big PA packs and into every Prime Vault (except returning Forst P) so far. Hearing those words in a Devstream just made me sick. 

(imagine high pitched voice) "I spent lots of money on your game - excuse me for wanting to have fair research cost."

Edited January 19, 2017 by k05h

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, k05h said:

29 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

Given their podcast immediately after the last dev stream its working as Rebecca was so proud to announce that now as many Hemas were bought as were crafted. It's on purpose and that's why it's staying. It has absolutely nothing to do with "honouring" anybody nor is it about promoting more clan cooperation. It's simply about making more plat out of new content and especially about doing so with people that have played for far too long and have too many resources.

That sentence about how well Hema sells for plat made me flinch. There was also a line in the Dev stream where Rebecca said if you want the Hema for free you have to do some grind.

People keep misinterpreting the Hema plat sales statement, nowhere has it been stated that Hema plat sales are higher than plat sales for any other weapon (please correct me if you have an actual source for your claims).

'Free' options should always involve some effort, a f2p business model isn't sustainable without that, the issue here is the reasonableness and fairness of the grind, not whether it should exist or not.

And "so proud to announce"? Rebecca stated a fact, I didn't read anything more into it than that.

23 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

8.3 solid hours of farming in the game where average total play time is about 70 hours (https://steamspy.com/app/230410)?

That's a meaningless statistic as the average play time will also include everyone who downloaded the game, didn't like it and have never played since.

The average time played per active player in the last 2 weeks is almost 17 hours, so your 8.3 hours is about one week of an average player's playing time.

[Naskoni]

2 minutes ago, k05h said:

That sentence about how well Hema sells for plat made me flinch. There was also a line in the Dev stream where Rebecca said if you want the Hema for free you have to do some grind. 

I bought into 5 big PA packs and into every Prime Vault (except return Forst P) so far. Hearing those words in a Devstream just made me sick. 

(imagine high pitched voice) "I spent lots of money on your game - excuse me for wanting to have fair research cost."

I've bought the Founder pack (obviously), one big PA (Ash) and 3 more Prime Accessory packs (one of which was waste of my money) plus some small plat on the side. The funny thing about this measly non-prime 225p (basically 10 Euro/Dollars) weapon and their BS and basically lies, was that it made me determined to never again support them with any of my personal money. Whatever plat I made through trading (and it is a lot) will be gladly spent if and when I even feel like playing for any length of time, but my support was up to this point. In my view antagonizing people, and especially a portion of their veterans, over such a petty thing wasn't a particularly good idea.

And to think that they are doing their worst to drive people away precisely when the game is making more money than ever and they obviously basically bathe in it (30k giveaway as we speak, visited the whole world to personally promote the game, Tennocon, paid some pretty big names for paid promotions, second best category of money-making games for 2016 on Steam alone, etc.) is profoundly stupid, i.e. this is pure greed.

As far as I'm concerned even if they miraculously revert all the Hema BS (not going to happen) I don't see myself restoring my support. Not after being called a loser as some form of perverted gratitude and not after the Hema BS.

[Flirk2]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That's a meaningless statistic as the average play time will also include everyone who downloaded the game, didn't like it and have never played since.

The average time played per active player in the last 2 weeks is almost 17 hours, so your 8.3 hours is about one week of an average player's playing time.

Do you not understand that with your second sentence you pretty much confirmed the insanity of Hema yet again?

Just think about what you said. You offered an average player to spend all their play time for a week to get 500 mutagen samples. And if they are in a solo ghost clan? 10 weeks of play time.

2.5 months of nothing but Derelict

Let me quote Lewis Carroll :

"You are old, Father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head—
Do you think, at your age, it is right?"

"In my youth," Father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."
...

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

Do you not understand that with your second sentence you pretty much confirmed the insanity of Hema yet again?

Just think about what you said. You offered an average player to spend all their play time for a week to get 500 mutagen samples. And if they are in a solo ghost clan? 10 weeks of play time.

2.5 months of nothing but Derelict

You don't have to get it in a week, if you choose to do nothing but intensively farm for it so you can have it as soon as possible, well that's your choice but no one's forcing you to do that.

I've said that 500 mutagen samples is reasonable as a stretch goal for a very limited number of items, it wouldn't be reasonable if it became the norm. Whether stretch goals as a concept are a good idea is a different discussion.

I've also addressed the unfairness introduced by clan tier scaling elsewhere in this thread, I'm in a solo ghost clan myself and currently sitting at just over 800/5000 mutagen samples.