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HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

Ciaus

By Ciaus,
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-Akeva-Banshee-

-Akeva-Banshee-

Posted
Posted (edited)

Lets try to avoid backbiting and quoting people so you can explain why you think there wrong. We should get back to offering constructive criticism. We don't want this thread shut down do we? 

Lets not give the devs another reason to side step this isssue by having another thread shut down?

Edited by -Akeva-Banshee-
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Vermitore

Vermitore

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, _sheepy_ said:

This is about warframe and the clan/dojo,In this game you're what most would consider a noob.

A clan is analogous with other cognate paradigms. Clans and guilds and other communes across mmos have almost always had some kind of treasury system in place and Warframe is no different. Call me a noob all you want, I have played this game for several years and many other games for much longer. If you think that the implementation of the closed commune in Warframe is some special esoteric thing, I think you are in no position to label me a noob.

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Flirk2

Flirk2

Posted
Posted (edited)

@Vermitore, please, be consistent.

You say:

1 hour ago, Vermitore said:

I have been in a clan for months and I don't even know 99.992 of the folks in there. They asked me to cough up the mutagen, I did

But just a little before that you said:

1 hour ago, Vermitore said:

If your clan of RL friends cannot get the weapon, that makes its acquisition a communal effort, in which case DE already achieved its purpose and things are working as intended.

So, it have not done much for your involvement in the clan, have it? You still don't know people in the clan. You don't even feel that attached to that clan, if they ''asked you to cough up the mutagen'' and you still have something left...

So what was the point again? To make research painful for clans that have more people than minimum for a clan of any size but less than the maximum? To make some clans feel superior to others?

Look, you are concentrating on the wrong thing here. The main problem a lot of people and I are pointing out is the cost on Hema research is inconsistent with all the other research costs. It is an obvious change in pricing policy that has no valid explanation from DE to date. They made a 50 to 100 times bigger price tag stay and all they have to say about it is ''it's meant to be a communal effort''. But all dojo research projects were meant to be a communal effort!

You ignored the first chart I put up for you. So let me put it again and add some more graphical evidence:

Let's put mutagen costs from the Bio lab on a bar chart again:

IWho3gU.jpg

Look how everything before Hema is dwarfed by it. I think this case can be put as an illustration on what a ''grind wall'' is.

But, Flirk, I hear you say, if data has that of a dispersion, you can use logarithmic scale to present it!

And, sure, let's do just that:

KeRGMjp.jpg

Better, right? If only you could ignore how logarithmic scale work... But even if you do it's looking as some kind of a barrier...

Maybe a pie chart will give us a less depressing result? Let's look at the data at that angle, shall we?

YNCYHca.jpg

Still not looking good.

 

Frankly, the ''we'll leave the cost to honor the sacrifice'' was a bad excuse. I think most of the people who did get the research done would much prefer to get some compensation.

I would be totally fine if they get an ''Infested Harvester'' sigil, Hema riven, a ''Mutagen Donor'' score in the profile with the amount of mutagen donated by them, 8 forma and a catalyst to use on their Hema, 5k mutagen decorations, a ''Legendary Chore'' mod for their warframes that converts dropped mutagen samples into a random rare resource, a clan trophy...

Or even everything combined!

Just bring the sanity back to the research requirements, please!

Because I do not want to extrapolate how much the next research will cost. Rough estimation alone scares me stiff.

 

P.S. I would be fine even if they made it a tradition: put some insane resource cost on research for a month, then reward people who did it with special sigils, event stats, consumables, and then lower the cost to reasonable levels. So people who are never going to farm 8 hours a day for a week could still do clan research.

Edited by Flirk2
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_sheepy_

_sheepy_

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Caused the problem? I only see a case of players who have long been around being rewarded with an easier time acquiring new vanity items. Nothing wrong here - please carry on

Of course you don't see nothing wrong,players like me with 4000 hours should not have a easier time than you with 500 hours.

After all the resources i've gathered over 4k hours should be worthless when it comes to aquiring new stuff,That's Fair.

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Golmihr

Golmihr

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Actually, it would be reasonable if the following criteria already existed:

1. All the other research items had comparable Mutagen Sample costs.

2. Mutagen Samples dropped at a rate that allowed 5K MS to be acquired within a reasonable time frame.

Neither of these criteria exist, therefore Hema's research cost is unreasonable.

A while back DE set a precedent. That Mutagen Samples would be a rare drop, but to compensate, you wouldn't need that much to complete research and build items. Players and clans naturally got used to this, but some clans wound up stockpiling large amounts of MS for whatever reason over time. Now DE throws everyone a curveball in the form of a massive price hike because they don't like it when players and clans have too much of certain resources. Basically everyone is now being punished because 1. We failed to read DE's minds a while back and 2. a few Clans decided that they had to have an obscene amount of Mutagen stockpile.

And to all you white knights out there...this is NOT Dev Bashing. This is a completely fair and legitimate criticism.

"Also" be reasonable I hope you mean. But...

If just your #1 then the costs in the bio lab would all be way out of touch with the other labs. And...

About your #2: That's what I basically said. If the spawn locations were more evenly divided then veteran players would have stock piles of MS like they do the equivalent resources from the other labs.

 

 

The cost wasn't made with any game balance in mind. They just wanted people to spend plat and that probably worked too. It was quite blatantly. No gradually increase in their resource requirements over several weapons or similar. I doubt it was because they sat down and said: "We really need to motive players to run derelict missions a lot more than the vaults and Lephantis helps to do."

Edited by Golmihr
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MirageKnight

MirageKnight

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Golmihr said:

"Also" be reasonable I hope you mean. But...

If just your #1 then the costs in the bio lab would all be way out of touch with the other labs. And...

About your #2: That's what I basically said. If the spawn locations were more evenly divided then veteran players would have stock piles of MS like they do the equivalent resources from the other labs.

 

 

The cost wasn't made with any game balance in mind. They just wanted people to spend plat and that probably worked too. It was quite blatantly. No gradually increase in their resource requirements over several weapons or similar. I doubt it was because they sat down and said: "We really need to motive players to run derelict missions a lot more than the vaults and Lephantis helps to do."

I wasn't disagreeing with you or criticizing you. More to the point I was adding on to what you'd said. My apologies if that wasn't clear!

With regard to your last paragraph, I completely agree. This all kind of smacks of forcing players to spend plat - and by extension spend money. Even by going the supposedly plat free route to obtain the Hema, the requirements are set so high that at least some players will be pushed towards getting boosters to make the grind less painful and tiring. Yes, boosters are OCCASIONALLY free - you might get a booster as a login or alert award or a drop in a cache - but for the most part you will have to spend plat on them.

Crafty eh?

Edited by MirageKnight
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notlamprey

notlamprey

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

I wasn't disagreeing with you or criticizing you. More to the point I was adding on to what you'd said. My apologies if that wasn't clear!

With regard to your last paragraph, I completely agree. This all kind of smacks of forcing players to spend plat - and by extension spend money. Even by going the supposedly plat free route to obtain the Hema, the requirements are set so high that at least some players will be pushed towards getting boosters to make the grind less painful and tiring. Yes, boosters are OCCASIONALLY free - you might get a booster as a login or alert award or a drop in a cache - but for the most part you will have to spend plat on them.

Crafty eh?

Regarding the daily tribute boosters, I'm noticing a trend.

Suddenly, I'm seeing boosters that are only 2 hours in duration as opposed to the usual 3. If I happen to see it on my account, I'll be sure to take a screenshot. I just thought it would be worth mentioning that DE are playing around with the idea of tightening down on our "free" booster time.

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ChuckMaverick

ChuckMaverick

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Regarding the daily tribute boosters, I'm noticing a trend.

Suddenly, I'm seeing boosters that are only 2 hours in duration as opposed to the usual 3. If I happen to see it on my account, I'll be sure to take a screenshot. I just thought it would be worth mentioning that DE are playing around with the idea of tightening down on our "free" booster time.

I just looked back in the Wikia history for the Daily Tribute page, and the boosters have been 90 min, 2 hours or 3 hours since at least 2015, so this isn't a new change.

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KaneAshe

KaneAshe

Posted
Posted (edited)

The only thing bad about Hema's cost is the fact that it dwarfs all other research costs combined. It's just silly for one item to be that much more expensive than all the others and stinks of random design decisions rather than having a plan for the economy (though I think it's fairly obvious that haphazard more or less describes DE's overall approach to the economy in the end, sadly).

The fact that it's super expensive and out of reach for many players/clans? I'm totally on board with that. I think more things should be behind a grindwall. Nothing is special if everyone can get it.

Edited by KaneAshe
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Ciaus

Ciaus

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Posted
4 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

The fact that it's super expensive and out of reach for many players/clans? I'm totally on board with that. I think more things should be behind a grindwall. Nothing is special if everyone can get it.

If you do that you may as well strip the F2P label, a soft paywall is still a paywall. Especially when for a solo clan this bleddy thing takes literally days of farming time. Literal days in ODD. That's bad. Also in a game that so heavily rewards having the right tool for the job, putting many of them behind such things would be very P2W. 

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Naskoni

Naskoni

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

The only thing bad about Hema's cost is the fact that it dwarfs all other research costs combined. It's just silly for one item to be that much more expensive than all the others and stinks of random design decisions rather than having a plan for the economy (though I think it's fairly obvious that haphazard more or less describes DE's overall approach to the economy in the end, sadly).

The fact that it's super expensive and out of reach for many players/clans? I'm totally on board with that. I think more things should be behind a grindwall. Nothing is special if everyone can get it.

Only if you go far enough in previous decisions and similar precedents you'd see that it's not random nor haphazard at all. Just as it is not random how much time it will "take" DE to fix the mutagen samples droprate or eventually reduce the research cost. Or both.

As for more things being behind grindwalls - plenty of stuff is like that already, just none is behind such a giga-grind-Chinese-wall (oh, the originality of this pun). This is not what Warframe has been. And given that Warframe makes DE more money than ever such BS is also hardly needed, not to mention worth it given the backlash.

And if you want special things that not many can or will get - try the Prime Accessories - no amount of grinding can get you those. Doesn't get much more special than that (with the exception of the Founder's packs).

 

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Golmihr

Golmihr

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, KaneAshe said:

The only thing bad about Hema's cost is the fact that it dwarfs all other research costs combined. It's just silly for one item to be that much more expensive than all the others and stinks of random design decisions rather than having a plan for the economy (though I think it's fairly obvious that haphazard more or less describes DE's overall approach to the economy in the end, sadly).

The fact that it's super expensive and out of reach for many players/clans? I'm totally on board with that. I think more things should be behind a grindwall. Nothing is special if everyone can get it.

A single weapon like the Hema is not going to matter much if at all in this context but if it is the start of an emerging pattern like you hope then I suspect it will affect the community.

Some of the goodwill Warframe got from players is probably because it got little to no reputation of being p2w, even if it is f2p (A rare combo). It has likely been a factor in creating the community we see today and a lot of income as a result. Many of the people who buy plat buy for cosmetics or spend plat on things people who play daily might think is a waste. They just don't have the time to grind stuff that is not even Hema level of insane. Just look at a crowdfunding project like Star Citizen that have passed 140 million dollars in player backing. There's a lot of money among gamers in general and as long as the product is good and creates a strong community they can be a part of, they will throw money at it. The guys who play all day are likely not going to start spending more money on the game on average but if they stop playing then the guys who do buy plat might also quit.

Edited by Golmihr
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notlamprey

notlamprey

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I just looked back in the Wikia history for the Daily Tribute page, and the boosters have been 90 min, 2 hours or 3 hours since at least 2015, so this isn't a new change.

That's interesting to see, since this is the first I (or anyone in our clan) have heard of them.

Then again, I'm historically late to every party.

Edited by notlamprey
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Ciaus

Ciaus

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Posted
11 hours ago, Golmihr said:

There's a lot of money among gamers in general and as long as the product is good and creates a strong community they can be a part of, they will throw money at it. The guys who play all day are likely not going to start spending more money on the game on average but if they stop playing then the guys who do buy plat might also quit.

This is a very important comment on the economy of a game like Warframe, people like to spend on things they enjoy to see that shiny new thing or take a short-cut, and having a large active community massively drives that feeling. When you push them away or make them feel forced to spend, good will can be lost. 

I am getting a bit nervous, in both update threads the top rated comments have been asking about mutagen, and so far DE has made no response at all. 

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Doc-Orange

Doc-Orange

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Ciaus said:

This is a very important comment on the economy of a game like Warframe, people like to spend on things they enjoy to see that shiny new thing or take a short-cut, and having a large active community massively drives that feeling. When you push them away or make them feel forced to spend, good will can be lost. 

I am getting a bit nervous, in both update threads the top rated comments have been asking about mutagen, and so far DE has made no response at all. 

I'm do not mind spending money on Warframe on my free decision. But here I'm forced to do so - thats the difference! And yes, the way DE handles this topic is disappointing. This is a massive lack of community management. Community Management is sunny days is easy. The challange are tough times

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TigerBoyZ01

TigerBoyZ01

Posted
Posted (edited)
On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 11:51 AM, xRufus7x said:

Bend over and take what exactly, the loss of a few hundred mastery points? Just don't farm it if you don't want to God knows Im not. DE isn't holding a gun to your head. The only thing DE is laughing at is your utter lack of patience and self control.

Bend over and take the huge grind that DE puts us through. I'm in a Moon Clan and I've busted my butt off farming Mutagens. If it had the same drop chance of let's say.... Detonite Ampules, no one would complain. But Mutagens are one of the rarest resources in the game.

Even if it is MR fodder, there is no reason to make the cost so high, if it is just an average weapon, that the only thing it does is steal health on headshots, and drain your health each time it needs to reload.

There is nothing about patience in this, fellow Tenno. Grinding is about patience when it's limited. We all know that all F2P's need some form of grind, but WF takes it to the next level. This game is turning more of a timesink and at this point it's getting worse.

Edited by TigerBoyZ01
Grammar mistakes, wording and adding several points to this.
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Ciaus

Ciaus

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Posted
38 minutes ago, Insizer said:

All I'm going to say is good job to @Ciaus for staying on top of this thread. I don't particularly care for the Hema myself (nor does my 3/4 dead clan), but keeping up with a thread isn't the easiest thing to do.

Thanks ^^
Now that the megathread has been locked I guess the conversation has to carry on somehow. I wouldn't put this time in if I didn't enjoy so much of the game. I just want to see the new material not impact that and keep up the philosophy that put this game so far up the Steam awards. 

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AreeSoothsayer

AreeSoothsayer

Posted
Posted

I'm part of a Casual clan. Most do donate here and there but most of the time I'm the one paying the lions share of resources. Over 1500 hours, derelic runs included in there got me a whopping 4000 of them.

I saw the amount of resources required.

Nope. Not gonna happen. If this happens again, I'm gone.

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Khratos26

Khratos26

Posted
Posted

Well, I've posted myself about the issue a few times, the biggest issue in my opinion is that the cost while being high, I couldn't care any less, I would pay platinum to the system to outright buy it.

 

Unfortunately being a dojo research , it must be researched no matter what, thus I see no point in spending plat to buy it, at least not from the 'system', my current clan will just kick everybody out to become a lesser tier clan then buy the sample's with platinum from other people. Does this help DE ? I kinda doubt it, the platinum instead of going back into the system will go in circulation.

 

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