Hypocricy runs strong in this one... Hema research cost precedent.

[Abraxas]

A disclaimer at the beginning.
This is my feedback on a set of information crowned with the feedback from Devstream #85. As a customer of this game I feel entitled to have the right to share my opinion. Any criticism within this post is my point of view and in no way it is my intention to offend or attack anybody. I respect DE and forum staff. I expect the same.

 

Now, with that out of the way...I accept and have no problem with the power that DE retains in their hands regarding all aspects of the game. They can do whatever they want with the game. If I don't like some of their moves, tough luck, it's my problem and I can try searching the happiness elsewhere. But... when someone is treating you like a golden fish (small memory span) or an idiot (small IQ), that gets to me.

 

First we had an outrageous Hema research cost. Let's face it, IT IS outrageous. Nothing anybody says cannot change that fact. Simply compare it to anything in the game before and there you go. It is outrageous. Unjustified.

Then we have confirmation from DE in the forums (it was from Taylor I think) that there is no mistake. IT IS DE's intention to motivate us (or whatever) with such high cost. No change to the requirements will happen. Period.

Now in the devstream we have a kind of a confession from DE (paraphrasing): "Oh. Too bad some of the clans already grinded like crazy and some individuals already bought the weapon with plat. Well, what can you do? Now we cannot decrease the cost. We can only increase the quantity in each drop in order to reduce the grind.".

 

So, instead of reducing the research cost (and refunding the surplus of contributed resources to the clan treasury for example), the precedent remains to be used later to justify new exponential increases in costs.

Let's be honest here DE. If you need 5000 mutagen samples and if they come in stacks of 2, that is identical like lowering the cost in half: 5000 x 1 = 2500 x 2. So, in turn you are doing the opposite of what your sentiment should tell us; you are not respecting the clans which already researched Hema and leaving the same time-investment requirements. You are halving it. And you should. But you should give up on this draconian increase and satisfy with third or even half of it. Refund the surplus of MS and everybody will be happy. Buyers of Hema with platinum probably have never even given a thought about researching it, therefore most probably they would not complain. You would still have drastically increased research cost that the community have swallowed and you could build your future requirements on top of it with little to no complaints.
Just to be clear. You don't even have to refund anything to anyone. To be honest, I don't care.

 

I have already said some things about the moderation on the forum in the holiday period, especially the topics related to Hema research. I won't be repeating myself here, but it's important to mention it.

 

I am not a hater or a fanboy but I kept remembering and repeating Google's mantra, every time I went into ODD to farm MS: "Don't be evil".
Guys, dial it down a little bit, please. Instead of this kind of moves and introducing new ultra-grindy resources maybe you could invest a bit more time in getting the game more visible in the market, polish it and make it more newbie friendly. Game would be much more often recommended to the new players if it would have a nice official lore, a coherent list of missions and boss fights, continuity in quests, and polishing or cleaning up all the things that simply do not contribute to the game in any relevant way but still may confuse or repel huge population of newcomers (sorry for pointing fingers but the first candidates for this would be PvP, AW, several abandoned or half-finished systems like focus, arcanes, etc). New players do not expect that they will need a multi-thousand wiki page and at least one dedicated human being at all times to be able to at least play the game (not to mention to understand it).

It is undeniable that the game is great. I want to thank you and congratulate on it. I wouldn't raise my voice if I didn't really love and care for the game and if I haven't felt that some things started going into the wrong (negative) direction with it.
I hope no one will hold this post against me.

[Evultis]

32 minutes ago, Abraxas said:

So, instead of reducing the research cost (and refunding the surplus of contributed resources to the clan treasury for example), the precedent remains to be used later to justify new exponential increases in costs.

Except that DE said in the same devstream you mentioned that they won't be doing anything this extreme again, using the Hema requirements as a reminder.

 

32 minutes ago, Abraxas said:

Instead of this kind of moves and introducing new ultra-grindy resources maybe you could invest a bit more time in getting the game more visible in the market, polish it and make it more newbie friendly. Game would be much more often recommended to the new players if it would have a nice official lore, a coherent list of missions and boss fights, continuity in quests, and polishing or cleaning up all the things that simply do not contribute to the game in any relevant way but still may confuse or repel huge population of newcomers (sorry for pointing fingers but the first candidates for this would be PvP, AW, several abandoned or half-finished systems like focus, arcanes, etc). New players do not expect that they will need a multi-thousand wiki page and at least one dedicated human being at all times to be able to at least play the game (not to mention to understand it).

The game is already plenty visible in the market, being the third most popular free-to-play on Steam, and Steam alone. Steve is doing his sunday livestreams with a fresh account precisely so he can do the whole new user experience. PvP, Archwing, and Focus are in incomplete status as is because they are still being adjusted, and in the case of PvP will constantly be adjusted to balance weapons. One of the loading screen hints strongly suggests using the wiki. As for a dedicated human, you don't need one. Have a question? Just ask it to Region, and it will probably be answered. Or ask in a Relay, Larunda at Mercury almost always has players online.

 

However, this brings what the real issue: Players run the game with the intention to grind, not to play. If you focus on just enjoying yourself (this is a game after all) then you stop noticing the grind.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Cephalon_Esrius

[notlamprey]

They have the means to deploy a more equitable solution.

Large scripts that change the details of many accounts simultaneously are feasible for them, and often deployed in a matter of a few days.

They are leaving us with the appearance of being unwilling to own the full consequences of their decisions here, and I'm unwilling to support that attitude.

"But my dude," you might point out, "you're assuming malfeasance when they might just have honestly goofed up!"

It's true that they might have been entirely well-meaning in their decisions, but they're just going to have to deal with the fact that this looks bad for them and we're allowed to comment on that.

DE will just have to suck it up.

[ShiraHagane]

10 minutes ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Except that DE said in the same devstream you mentioned that they won't be doing anything this extreme again, using the Hema requirements as a reminder.

and they said there would never be a war this bad again

[armedpoop]

6 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

However, this brings what the real issue: Players run the game with the intention to grind, not to play. If you focus on just enjoying yourself (this is a game after all) then you stop noticing the grind.

Thats not a "real issue", thats your opinion. You dont get to determine what people enjoy doing. You dont get to tell people how to play the game. For me (and many others) collecting everything you can collect is fun, for some players, grinding is fun. It doesnt matter if you dont "notice the grind" or not, the fact of the matter is that the Hema research costs are too high. 

 

For my money, im willing to bet that this WONT be the last time we get something this hilariously over priced in resources. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by armedpoop

[Evultis]

44 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Thats not a "real issue", thats your opinion. You dont get to determine what people enjoy doing. You dont get to tell people how to play the game. For me (and many others) collecting everything you can collect is fun, for some players, grinding is fun. It doesnt matter if you dont "notice the grind" or not, the fact of the matter is that the Hema research costs are too high. 

 

For my money, im willing to bet that this WONT be the last time we something this hilariously over priced in resources. 

The thing is people aren't complaining about the cost, they are complaining about having to grind the samples for the cost, let me clerify how: if obtaining Mutagen Samples was easier or faster, the larger number as in the Hema research would not be an issue. That is why DE's solution is to increase the number of Samples per drop. Sure, there are some people who enjoy grinding, but they aren't the ones complaining about the grind.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Cephalon_Esrius

[Loswaith]

The point is DE have changed the value of things before despite players having put in time/effort to get it when it was high. All because they thought it was better for the game on the whole (or so I'd presume).

From most recent (all from memory, so many will be missed):
Kuva - For riven re-rolls it has been reduced and capped (without refunds)
Vauban Prime - Resources reduced (without refunds)
Resource container - making rare resources much more prolific
Void Traces - moved from eximus to the relic and increased quantity
Ducats - both decreased and increased with the change to relics
Relics - with the ability to skew individual drop chances (abet arguable)
Rathuum - points increased
Kubrow - increased Egg drop rates
Oxium - increased drop amounts
Invasions/infestations - changed from 5 rounds to 3, number of Fielderon and Detonite injector reward increases
Banshee - Moved to Dojo research from random drop at various locations
Warframe part blueprints - increased drop rates from bosses
Dojo room costs - huge reduction in their costs to scale per clan size (with optional refunds)

So all in all plenty of occurrences where players achieved the goal while harder but it was still changed to make it better for all players.
 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Loswaith

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

10 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

However, this brings what the real issue: Players run the game with the intention to grind, not to play. If you focus on just enjoying yourself (this is a game after all) then you stop noticing the grind.

that's one of the main problems about the hema tho: it would literally take you years* to be able to research the hema solo if you rely on mutagen samples you find along the way "while playing the game". the reason is they are only actively farmable on a single tileset we have no other reason to go to and which doesn't feature sortie / fissure levels.

*like i played this game almost every day for more than 2 years now, 2900 steam hours and i had only around 450... alot of vets reported similar numbers, usually about 1000~2500... that's hardly half of what you need and it's just for a single weapon! compare the number of fieldron samples and detonite ampules with your mutagen samples and you know what i'm talking about.

and there is NO way DE didn't know that. they do have the stats. it's the very reason they chose mutagen samples and not nano spores or whatever. to make us pay with plat. first they state it was intentional then backpedal to "it was a mistake" but can't just refund clans who already researched hema?! suddenly they are reluctant to make use of their EULA after changing so much ingame people had "earned" for years? yeah sure... i totally agree with OP: it's an unsult to their costumers' intelligence.

it was all just a huge scam, at least that's what i firmly believe based on their inconsitent reasoning.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Ciaus]

9 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Except that DE said in the same devstream you mentioned that they won't be doing anything this extreme again, using the Hema requirements as a reminder.

 

They literally said the exact same thing with sibear. 
And they DIDN'T promise not to make it a pre-req for other research. 
Never take people who want your money at face value >.>

I have a full breakdown on my opinion of the new info here:

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Ciaus

[Evultis]

5 hours ago, Ciaus said:

They literally said the exact same thing with sibear. 

And there is nothing that costs as much Cryotic as the Sibear. Promise upheld.

[Evultis]

6 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

that's one of the main problems about the hema tho: it would literally take you years* to be able to research the hema solo if you rely on mutagen samples you find along the way "while playing the game". the reason is they are only actively farmable on a single tileset we have no other reason to go to and which doesn't feature sortie / fissure levels.

*like i played this game almost every day for more than 2 years now, 2900 steam hours and i had only around 450... alot of vets reported similar numbers, usually about 1000~2500... that's hardly half of what you need and it's just for a single weapon! compare the number of fieldron samples and detonite ampules with your mutagen samples and you know what i'm talking about.

and there is NO way DE didn't know that. they do have the stats. it's the very reason they chose mutagen samples and not nano spores or whatever. to make us pay with plat. first they state it was intentional then backpedal to "it was a mistake" but can't just refund clans who already researched hema?! suddenly they are reluctant to make use of their EULA after changing so much ingame people had "earned" for years? yeah sure... i totally agree with OP: it's an unsult to their costumers' intelligence.

it was all just a huge scam, at least that's what i firmly believe based on their inconsitent reasoning.

Mutagen Samples are obtainable on two tiles: Eris, and Derelict. Sure, you can't use extractors at the derelict, but they drop more commonly than at Eris as compensation.

Having around 450... If everyone in a clan contributes roughly that amount, the research is complete. Furthermore, a point of research is for the clan to work together to complete it.

And DE was aware. They wanted a small gap between release and obtainment, so the content isn't done as soon as it is released.

Have they overestimated? Yes. Did they have solid reasoning for this estimation? Also yes.

[Educated_Beast]

I run a ghost clan with one other semi-active player and been playing over 2 years.  Between both of us (2+ year accounts), we had about 3.5K between us.  I had to purchase a resource drop chance booster and resource double booster in addition to farming ODD missions up to wave 30-50 at least 10 times to get the remainder (while running speed nova, pilfering hydroid, nekros x2). 

 

If anything was refunded, I'd want my platinum back for boosters I would not have bought otherwise.  They are in a bad situation where they cannot please everyone.  They made a bad decision and there is no easy way out. 

 

For people saying they want a delay with research in clans, there is a delay, it takes 3 days to complete even if start research on first day.  5000 was excessive but they should not change anything unless they plan to compensate others for their grind. 

 

Only solution that would be fair would be to make MS drop on Eris in same frequency as direlect so players can obtain "naturally" and with extractors. 

[ShiraHagane]

1 hour ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Mutagen Samples are obtainable on two tiles: Eris, and Derelict. Sure, you can't use extractors at the derelict, but they drop more commonly than at Eris as compensation.

Having around 450... If everyone in a clan contributes roughly that amount, the research is complete. Furthermore, a point of research is for the clan to work together to complete it.

And DE was aware. They wanted a small gap between release and obtainment, so the content isn't done as soon as it is released.

Have they overestimated? Yes. Did they have solid reasoning for this estimation? Also yes.

having around 450, you'd have to have a clan with 100% active players all having that amount, and it can be as much as 100 times that amount depending on how many people are inactive

[Ciaus]

2 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Having around 450... If everyone in a clan contributes roughly that amount, the research is complete. Furthermore, a point of research is for the clan to work together to complete it.

 

Assuming 100% CONTRIBUTION, let alone activity. 

 

2 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Did they have solid reasoning for this estimation? Also yes.

Not even close. 
They literally have the data at their fingertips and still made the "assumption" you did above. 
That's not solid reasoning, that's an excuse. A poor one at that. 
They have to be aware that the community would struggle to get this completed given weeks or months, OR they don't know how to interpret their own data. I'm not inclined to believe a major dev team that must have some people with at least basic statistical understanding would struggle with such metrics. 

[FrostedMike]

52 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

having around 450, you'd have to have a clan with 100% active players all having that amount, and it can be as much as 100 times that amount depending on how many people are inactive

I will agree that the cost is high, but it's not as difficult as you might think. I have over 4000 mutagen sample and done with most of the research alone... All I need is to remind my friends to contribute the 2000 that left, which I know they have.

[Irorone]

3 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

And there is nothing that costs as much Cryotic as the Sibear. Promise upheld.

So now it's just if it's a particular material that's getting the cost jump that matters?  Yeah that's a pretty weak looking straw to grasp.  If they decide to just keep doing the same bit with other materials/weapons they'll just keep bleeding players/payers/losers.  In short if they have to resort to contract style sidestepping to justify their decisions the only people it's really hurting in the end are those that genuinely love the game and themselves.

3 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Mutagen Samples are obtainable on two tiles: Eris, and Derelict. Sure, you can't use extractors at the derelict, but they drop more commonly than at Eris as compensation.

Having around 450... If everyone in a clan contributes roughly that amount, the research is complete. Furthermore, a point of research is for the clan to work together to complete it.

And DE was aware. They wanted a small gap between release and obtainment, so the content isn't done as soon as it is released.

Have they overestimated? Yes. Did they have solid reasoning for this estimation? Also yes.

True but even then mutagen samples are still harder to obtain than either detonite or fieldron samples.  One because it's ONLY two tilesets/planets.  Two because the drop rates on one of those is just legitimately bad as in 20 waves for ONE sample bad.

Mhmm more generalization, not everybody has a full clan and nor should they be expected to operate at absolute maximums (including boosters from what I see in a lot of the "defense" arguments for hema) for anything resembling a reasonable acquisition time for the print on a single weapon.

"a small gap" has become months/ever for a lot of people.  Also there's the three day research wait and the 12-24 hour wait period with building the weapon.  They had said "gap" they just decided to bloat the hell out of it in Hema's case.

Solid reasoning?  No.  A ten man clan had their costs risen 100x.  Meaning even at maximum operations individual expectations still rose ten times and there are VERY few things in this game that can take that multiplier reasonably.  Now consider that for many people they're looking at more (much more in some instances) than a 10x increase.

[BlackCoMerc]

19 hours ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Except that DE said in the same devstream you mentioned that they won't be doing anything this extreme again, using the Hema requirements as a reminder.

 

The game is already plenty visible in the market, being the third most popular free-to-play on Steam, and Steam alone. Steve is doing his sunday livestreams with a fresh account precisely so he can do the whole new user experience. PvP, Archwing, and Focus are in incomplete status as is because they are still being adjusted, and in the case of PvP will constantly be adjusted to balance weapons. One of the loading screen hints strongly suggests using the wiki. As for a dedicated human, you don't need one. Have a question? Just ask it to Region, and it will probably be answered. Or ask in a Relay, Larunda at Mercury almost always has players online.

 

However, this brings what the real issue: Players run the game with the intention to grind, not to play. If you focus on just enjoying yourself (this is a game after all) then you stop noticing the grind.

Except...you dont stop noticing the Grind. And that is directly DE's fault.

You keep noticing the grind for a couple of reasons:

-Mission specific rewards: any time you force players to run the same mission type over and over to get a reward, you foster grind and burnout. It's bad game design.

Rewards should be available in a variety of ways. Maybe have all missions above a certain level pay Ducats. Then, frame parts, prime parts, etc, can be bought with Ducats. Only their BP would be mission specific.

Moreover, we want to FIND loot. Not have it doled out on a timer every 5 minutes like a lab rat. That's an OUTRIGHT REMINDER that, hey...You're grinding.

Poor or no enemy variety: Want prime stuff? Plan on killing A LOT of Ancient, Nullifiers and Bombard enemy types. On. Every. Run. 

This makes all the runs feel identical after a while, giving rise to burnout.

On a final note: there is simply no excuse for the poor state of Archwing, Focus or Operator game play. This game is two years live, with a cash shop. Try Actually finishing and testing your content, BEFORE you release it for once.

What are console players going to do, once PC players finally get tired of being unpaid beta testers? This needs to change.

Edited January 7, 2017 by BlackCoMerc